I've seen a number of posts essentially saying "fuck people who are now sorry they voted for Trump."

[thucythucy]

I can certainly understand the sentiment, especially from people who have been direct victims of Benedict Donald, his policies, and the toxic atmosphere of racism, misogyny, homophobia and xenophobia he's fostered.

As someone at added risk to the virus i share much of that feeling. And I don't excuse those who voted for Trump (and will likely vote for him again) precisely because he validates their own bigotry.

I think there is a demographic though that Democrats lost, starting in 1980, that is worth an effort to understand and reach. And these are less educated, low information voters who deep down feel intimidated by anything intellectual and/or academic, and respond to candidates such as Reagan, Bush Jr., and Trump who tell them "Don't let those smarty pants elites intimidate you. Your ignorance is just as valid as their knowledge."

I've known several of these folks, including members of my own family. They all share a number of traits:

Did poorly in school, often failing classes like English and math, as a result were turned off to "book learning." None of them went beyond high school, a couple dropped out because they were tired of being treated like they were inferior. One grew up in a family where English was a second language, and was offered no bi-lingual programming to help him along. Another had undiagnosed dyslexia, and grew up feeling she was "retarded."

As a result they don't like to read (and thus get all their information from cable TV or, more recently, Facebook, talk radio and such).

Feel intimidated in the presence of people who don't share this specific demographic, going all the way back to childhood.

Work at jobs that are low paying and/or require them to work long hours, so that doing the "homework" involved in being an informed citizen feels too much like, well, homework.

Luckily, we have a candidate in Vice President Biden who appeals to these folks. He is smart without being intimidating, meets people at their own level. One measure of how good Biden is at this is his ability to talk to children without sounding like a condescending jerk. He treats them with the same measure of respect, infuses in them the same sense of dignity as any head of state he might meet.

I'm hoping we can bring many of these folks around. I know I've had some (limited) success doing this in my own little circle. It involves not starting with an attitude of contempt or dismissal.

Of course, like I said, those for whom Trump's racism, sexism, homophobia, corruption and climate denial are a feature, not a bug, are more or less hopeless, and not worth the investment of time and energy.

Just a bit of rambling this crisp autumn morning.

[MFGsunny]

1. GOOD rambling to inspire "GOOD trouble." Thank you, tt. n/t

[thucythucy]

2. You're welcome, and best wishes. nt

[cwydro]

3. Absolutely. Good point.

I’ve met many trumpers (back in 2016 because I avoid them now). They were all pretty ignorant, either white or black, straight or gay, old or young - and because of my job at the time, I met them all.

A few were assholes, but others were good people in every other regard.

[better]

4. Some very "good trouble" inspiring rambling indeed, and there's an important parallel to be drawn...

with the message articulated four years ago by none other than Secretary Clinton herself.

Unfortunately, many missed it, because it came as part of the "deplorables" message, in the coverage of and reaction to which it got largely lost or obscured. But I encourage everyone to take a moment, if they've forgotten or never knew, and really read through ALL of what our beloved Secretary actually said in that speech...

"You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? [Laughter/applause]. The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic — you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people, now have 11 million. He tweets and retweets offensive, hateful, mean-spirited rhetoric. Now some of those folks, they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America.

But this next part is where she addresses exactly the people of whom you are speaking...

"But the other basket, the other basket, and I know because I see friends from all over America here. I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas, as well as you know New York and California. But that other basket of people who are people who feel that government has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they are just desperate for change. It doesn't really even matter where it comes from. They don't buy everything he says but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won't wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroine, feel like they're in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well."

It is important that we impress upon people the fact that why one votes for an evil man does not lessen their culpability for the evil that ensues, but at the same time, we should be very mindful that that very same "why" does determine whether or not they could become a worthy and sincere ally, given proper outreach. And particularly right now, when the entire Republican Party is self-immolating, it could be a very beneficial thing indeed to more properly assess who should be condemned and who should be rehabilitated.

[thucythucy]

5. Wow! I was totally unaware of that part of Secretary Clinton's speech.

Or if I heard it at the time I've long forgotten.

It occurred to me, since I posted the OP, that a large portion of people who don't vote at all also fall into this demographic. And so reaching out to the people I posted about might well have the added benefit of drawing more folks who are totally disaffected into our alliance.

Thanks for this thoughtful and informative reply.

Best wishes.

[better]

6. A LOT of people were not aware, and if you ask me, we missed an opportunity there.

I've had more than one exchange wherein a Trump supporter seized upon the "deplorables" remarks, and made clear that they took them personally, right down to expressing resentment over being called racist, etc., and they were stunned when I recited the paragraph of that speech immediately following the deplorables remarks, which they immediately recognized as explicitly exempting them from that characterization, and validating their grievances.

It's a powerful way of demonstrating to people exactly how RW media has been programming and manipulating them, and how easy it is to uncover it by simply comparing what RW media reported about what was said to what was actually said, which is actually usually pretty easy, since it's very often quite easy to find raw, unedited, and most importantly, COMPLETE video, or at least transcripts.

You were 100% correct that bringing these folks around involves not starting with an attitude of contempt or dismissal.
I cite Secretary Clinton's expression of that exact point because she's a far more credible leader among Democrats than I.

[thucythucy]

7. Thanks again.

This reminds me of the same sleazy tactic pulled just recently. As I recall, Secretary Clinton said Vice President Biden shouldn't consider conceding until all the votes are counted. Fox and others cut out the last part, making it sound like she was saying he shouldn't concede even if he lost, in other words "both sides are doing it."

I recently ran into a low info voter who had seen doctored videos of Biden posted on his Facebook page. Simply pointing out that the videos were doctored pissed him off enough to reconsider not voting for Biden (he isn't a Trump supporter, but had been saying he didn't want to vote at all). People don't like being patronized, and they especially don't like being lied to.

[cwydro]

10. Yes, sadly only one part of that got publicized.

In retrospect, a poor choice of words, despite the fact she was spot on.

[arthritisR_US]

8. A ramble worth reading, excellent points TY!

[LAS14]

9. I used to be much more open to the idea that many (used to think "most") Trump....

... supporters were where they were because of the things you describe. But as I watch Trump get worse and worse (who'd a thunk???) and 30-40 percent of the voting public sticks with him, I'm more inclined to share Biden's "discovery" that hate doesn't really go away. It goes underground, and Trump has uncovered a real thing.

[Aristus]

11. For my part, I'm afraid I can't summon warmth of heart for people

who were blisteringly idiotic enough to vote for Trump to "shake things up", (and if they feel shaken up now, four years later, isn't that their own damn fault?) or people who are so hellishly mean-spirited that they voted for Trump and said "Fuck Your Feelings".

They're welcome to go to Hell and stay there.

If they want to vote Biden-Harris before they go, fine. But the sooner we're rid of such feckless filth, the better...

[nolabear]

12. I agree. People do not want to be ashamed.

And we have created a world in which people shame rather than appreciate and try to help one another. I’m betting many of those poorly educated people have skills and talents that are not valued the way things like language, math, science, etc. are. They grow up alienated and angry sometimes and that’s a failure of society. So they often do two things—go far in the “I’m independent and anyone who needs help is flawed” direction, and fall prey to authoritarians who use them to carry out their goals.

Anyone who begins to question that, and who realizes the dangers of something they did, should be thanked and welcomed. And those who haven’t, in my opinion, need to be ignored if you can’t take it (and I often can’t) and not allowed to put the authoritarian in power, by the sheer power of the vote.

[Kaleva]

13. Other then race, I see no examples of certain traits.

The Trump supporters I know are a wide ranging lot.

Male
Female
Young adult
Middle aged
Senior
Rural
Suburban
Urban
Hetro
Gay
Poor
Middle class
Financially well off
Highly educated
HS drop outs
Agnostic
Atheist
Main stream religion
Fundy

[thucythucy]

14. I agree. Trump supporters cover a wide gamut.

However, I'm talking about a specific demographic that it may be possible, hopefully, to reach. Vice President Biden seems to have the touch, as did Bill Clinton.

This may be a sliver of Trump supporters (though I think it's more), and certainly also also a larger portion of people who don't vote at all.

[Kaleva]

15. I agree with you on that.

[Blue_true]

20. They are very nationalistic. Trump and people like Tom Cotton and Josh Hawley

tap into that sentiment. Nationalist don’t understand why we need to agree to work with other nations. Nationalists dislike European internationalists as much as they dislike people that come into the country undocumented.

From my perspective when I talk to those people, I try to get them to understand that we actually need immigration and work visas, especially for our southern neighbors, to proper as a nation. Our national wealth and prominence has been built of the backs of two groups, African Americans and immigrants, those groups were often forced into dangerous, low wage jobs that formed the backbone of American industry and agriculture.

[Meowmee]

16. At this point in time I will not attack anyone who is sorry

The fact remains you did not have to be educated etc. , add anything you want to here, to see what he was. If you're truly sorry you should stop making excuses for your reasons for contributing to this.

[thucythucy]

17. I wonder though,

how do we keep people from being fooled again?

You say "you did not have to be educated to see what he was."

The problem is the people I'm describing don't read, and don't watch much news. What "news" they do get is from Facebook or YouTube or other on-line sources which are notoriously unreliable.

A big part of Secretary Clinton's problem was all the rabid disinformation that was out there, twenty years or more of right wing slanders. To get to the bottom of all the bullshit required doing the "homework."

So we had this situation where the "both-sides-ism" prevailed--if Trump was a pussy-grabber, Clinton murdered Vince Foster. If Trump was connected to the Russians, the Clintons dealt with Latin American drug lords.

It occurs to me now that a huge source of this BS was the National Inquirer--which we now know was a part of the "capture and kill" culture that buried genuine dirt on Trump, and spread bogus crap about the Clintons. Fact is that National Inquirer, because of its salacious stories and easy to digest format, is (or was) another major source of "news" for this particular demo.

There's a DUer who has posted multiple times about how we need to figure out a way to counter hate radio--another huge part of the problem. One thing that makes hate radio so effective is that it is geared precisely to folks who don't read for information, who seek out "news" sources that are easily digested.

If we don't deal with these issues, eight or twelve years from now we'll end up in the same place.

Reagan Bush trashed the economy--Bill Clinton fixed it, and yet only eight years after the GOP debacle the Republicans were able to garner enough votes to steal the 2000 election.

By 2008 Bush II had again trashed the economy and--as an added bonus--had us involved in a disastrous foreign adventure that nearly destroyed our standing around the world. President Obama fixed the economy, restored our reputation around the world, and yet in 2016 the GOP again garnered enough votes to retake the White House--and stack the courts with RWNJs.

I worry that once Biden/Harris pull us out of the current mess, we will again end up with a significant slice of the electorate who will again be duped into voting GOP.

[Blue_true]

21. People that voted for him are also very nationalistic, I believe that he took maximum

advantage of that reality.

[Meowmee]

22. If they listened to the propaganda about hrc etc

They were capable of listening and they made their choice. All they had to do was watch a Nazi rally etc. I don’t buy they voted based on no info. If you aren’t willing to be brainwashed you can’t be.

As far as educating people and stopping right wing radio etc. I am all for that. The problem is these people wanted to vote for a fascist and they did. If they are regretting it now great, that means there may be hope for them.

I honestly do not have a lot of hope for most, all we need is enough to stop him, that is what I am hoping for now.

I have come across people like this, who you would never expect to vote for a fascist, but they did, many use hrc crap as an excuse.

[Blue_true]

18. What I have seen of people that voted for Trump is a somewhat complex picture.

There are ones that are dirt poor, living a hard scrabble life, but they somehow see something in him. A lot of those people are not racists, so the racist angle is not what attracted them.
I know people that work hard and pay their taxes fairly who voted for that tax cheating loser. Again, many of those people are not racists or even resentful of people that don’t look like them.

One thing that is a constant with all of those people is there are red-blooded America first people, they call themselves patriots and believe that. They don’t cotton to the concept that we are just one fish in an international ocean and that sometimes we won’t have issues go our way. I believe that what people like Trump, Tom Cotton and others have done is successfully trigger the button of non-racist nationalism in those people are are relying on that to blind those people of the reality that what politicians like Trump propose only leads to dead ends.

[thucythucy]

19. Interesting thought.

It never ceases to amaze me how the GOP has been able to present itself as the "America First" true patriot party when just the opposite is true.

And the GOP still has a plurality of people believing the economy does better under their control, when every shred of evidence since 1932 says otherwise. Ditto with it being better at balancing the budget.

Somehow we have to come up with a long range plan for dealing with the information desert that is the USA.

Thanks for the response, and best wishes.

[Blue_true]

23. I believe that what democratic politicians and strategists do is talk over those people's heads.

Our side use big words and complex imagery. The GOP side use main street words and images those people can relate to. If you look at our strategists and politicians that have done well, they have an ability to talk to people on a level that is understandable by everyone, so James Carvill and the Ivy League educated Bill Clinton communicated in a way that a small city person could understand, same with Barack Obama and the team of strategists that he had around him, same with Jimmy Carter on his first run (Reagan stoke the down home mantra in 80 and painted President Carter as some out of touch liberal who wanted people to drive small cars and put solar panels on their house roofs).

[Progressive Jones]

24. The "Trump-types" didn't appear overnight. They've been festering for decades.

I get it. Not all who voted for Trump in '16 are evil.

The ones still supporting him at this point, however, are far from being "very fine people".
They will remain the same when Trump is gone.
They will always be a problem we can do without.

[thucythucy]

25. Well, anyone who still supports the rude pumpkin

at this point is beyond reach. The people who stick with him now are most likely attracted either to his white supremacy, (and/or his misogyny and/or his homophobia) or are so wedded to the notion of "owning the libs" that they'll actually risk death by virus for themselves and the people around them for this dubious and ridiculous form of satisfaction. Add to this clot of folks are the actual millionaires and billionaires who care only about accumulating more wealth, and the rest of us be damned, and then throw in the folks who care about abortion as their one and only issue, and we have what's left of the support Trump garnered in 2016.

These folks aren't worth the time and resources needed even to begin their deprogramming. Probably the only thing that will change their minds at this point would be some cataclysmic personal experience. We've seen some of those conversions--for instance the people who voted for Trump in '16 but then had to endure someone they love dying a grisly death due to his incompetence, or farmers who are near destitution because of his trade war with China--but that's a helluva steep price to pay for enlightenment.

It reminds of a Simpsons episode where Homer finally accepts the humanity of a gay man but only after that man saves Homer's life. The line I recall is the gay character saying, "Now if only every gay person in the world could save your life at least once, you'd be fine with us."

April 1945 saw lots of Germans who were still sticking with Hitler, even as their world burned down around them.

I suppose most every society has a hard core of gullible haters.

I'm hoping though we can at least bring some non-voters over to the light. The folks who in '16 succumbed to the "both sides are awful" and "my vote won't matter anyway" and "national politics don't affect me" arguments. And then also retain beyond this election cycle the Trump voters who have now swung over the Biden.

Anyway, thanks for your comment, and best wishes.