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Cyrano

(15,039 posts)
Fri Oct 9, 2020, 03:44 PM Oct 2020

Seems the Constitution may in fact be a suicide pact

So here we are with a president who, most would agree, is insane. The Constitution gives us two ways to remove him: (1) Impeachment and conviction, or (2) The 25th Amendment (google it). Both of these methods currently rely on Republicans acting responsibly. Don't hold your breath.

If/When Trump loses the election, there will be nothing to stop him from doing everything in his power (until January 20th) to destroy our democracy.

Actually, if we hold the House and take the Senate, he will only have until January 3rd before the new congress is sworn in. Nonetheless, that will give him more than enough time to unleash all the demons of hell on America, and perhaps the entire world.

Assuming we survive this madman, we definitely need a third, more effective way to remove a mentally deranged president. But it must obviously be a way that cannot be used for partisan purposes. (i.e., Today's Republicans would use a hypothetical third way to oust a Dem president for cutting a fart.)

If you have any ideas on how we can avoid ever again finding ourselves where we are today, I'd like to hear them.

18 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Seems the Constitution may in fact be a suicide pact (Original Post) Cyrano Oct 2020 OP
Reverse Citizens United Mme. Defarge Oct 2020 #1
Bingo safeinOhio Oct 2020 #4
+1000000 crickets Oct 2020 #17
Hard term limits & lengthy lobbying restrictions RainCaster Oct 2020 #2
Make an example of DFT and McTurtle RainCaster Oct 2020 #3
Get rid of the DOJ OLC memo that says a sitting POTUS can't be prosecuted for crimes. CaptainTruth Oct 2020 #5
+1 WA-03 Democrat Oct 2020 #6
That would have been a good idea before the republicans stacked the courts with partisan BComplex Oct 2020 #8
The Constitution certainly needs tweaking. The EC, vestige of enslavement has to go.... brush Oct 2020 #7
All good points. BComplex Oct 2020 #9
Pay a Putin torpedo(NT) The Wizard Oct 2020 #10
Much of what needs to be done seems doubtful due to requirements MarcA Oct 2020 #11
The true underlying issue is that so many people PoindexterOglethorpe Oct 2020 #12
Our Constitution has been abused. dmr Oct 2020 #13
Many good ideas, dmr. But disclosures, vetting, Citizens United, Cyrano Oct 2020 #14
At this point I don't see a solution Buckeyeblue Oct 2020 #15
Regarding a revised document, Cyrano Oct 2020 #16
I'm with you on not trusting humans to create a new constitution Buckeyeblue Oct 2020 #18

RainCaster

(10,874 posts)
3. Make an example of DFT and McTurtle
Fri Oct 9, 2020, 03:59 PM
Oct 2020

Very lengthy prison terms and heavy fines that bankrupt their estates.

CaptainTruth

(6,591 posts)
5. Get rid of the DOJ OLC memo that says a sitting POTUS can't be prosecuted for crimes.
Fri Oct 9, 2020, 04:07 PM
Oct 2020

The way it is now, with that memo in effect the POTUS could literally kill members of the opposing party & get away with it as long as his party controls at least one chamber of Congress & they refuse to impeach/remove him.

And it's a damn MEMO! It's not a law & it's not the constitution.

If we get rid of that memo then the courts can play a role in a criminal proceeding.

BComplex

(8,051 posts)
8. That would have been a good idea before the republicans stacked the courts with partisan
Fri Oct 9, 2020, 04:32 PM
Oct 2020

unqualified judges.

brush

(53,778 posts)
7. The Constitution certainly needs tweaking. The EC, vestige of enslavement has to go....
Fri Oct 9, 2020, 04:13 PM
Oct 2020

and the custom, although not in the Constitution, of a sitting president not being able to be indicted has to be looked at, since if it's obvious this president has committed crimes. The filibuster needs looking at, as well as the immense power of the Senate Majority Leader. Moscow Mitch is arguably more powerful than trump.

The Senate representation in Congress of the states has to be adjusted. Wyoming with under a million population has as much power as California with 40 million people.

And of course the Second Amendment needs to be updated so we won't have domestic terrorists with assault rifles trying to kidnap governors.

The founding fathers left a good framework but they could never have foreseen the complicated exigencies of modern life.

And there is the original, unmitigated sin that has hung over this nation's head since it's founding and haunts us still—reparations for enslavement that still echoes in various ways from unarmed black men being shot and/or killed regularly by cops, to hundreds of years of unpaid, stolen labor of millions of human beings which has resulted in black families still having just one tenth of household wealth of that of white families because of stolen wealth never having been passed down.

MarcA

(2,195 posts)
11. Much of what needs to be done seems doubtful due to requirements
Fri Oct 9, 2020, 04:38 PM
Oct 2020

of 2/3 votes in the Senate and 3/4 votes among the various States. If things continue
to worsen probably will need the founding of new nation(s) by the turn of the next century.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,857 posts)
12. The true underlying issue is that so many people
Fri Oct 9, 2020, 04:53 PM
Oct 2020

are so very poorly educated. They learn little history, less science, and nothing about how to analyze issues, how to tell if an argument is valid. A lot of people are dismayingly proud of not being able to do any math. Schools are terrified to teach things like evolution because religious groups or people instead want their mythology taught.

It's going to be almost impossible to change any of that.

dmr

(28,347 posts)
13. Our Constitution has been abused.
Fri Oct 9, 2020, 06:21 PM
Oct 2020

The last 4 years I've been saying Donald and the Republicans have weaponized our beautiful Constitution.

They use it to their advantage, and ignore to their advantaged.

As the first poster suggested, get rid of Citizen United. Take the big money out of our politics.

Design and implement federal voting rules or regulations. We need to assure that all American citizens have the opportunity to vote without being disenfranchised or through intimidation.

Vet each Presidental candidate to assure the candidate does not pose a national security risk. Do the vetting early before too much has been invested - time, money, emotion, etc. has been invested.

Make financial disclosures mandatory, tax records, for instance. Have a specific time frame for this. If a candidate balks, they are deemed disqualified.

Return powers back to Congress that have been given, over the years, to the president.

Put teeth into Congresses ability to subpoena the Administrative branch.

I don't know how, but have consequences when violating the Oath of Office - in regards to Congressional members who support a person, or political party over country. Personally, I'd like to see them all charged under the RICO Act.

Change the jurisdiction of the Department of Justice, FBI, etc from under the Administrative Branch to Congress, or a bipartisan group of citizens. Unfortunately, Donald has proven these Departments are not safe under the Administrative Branch.

Donald's administration has proven that no department or agency is safe. Each and every one of them has been compromised, looted, defanged, changed against the best interest of our nation. How do we stop this from happening again? I don't know. I don't want to see drastic changes that could cause more harm in the future when a conscientious president in power.

The United States, through its burps and growing pains, has run fairly well since its founding. Yet, it took one man to destroy the faith and trust in EVERY aspect of our government, including our Congress. Just one man! ONE MAN!

I wish I had the answers. We have to be careful because our cure could be worse than the current disaster.

I do know that uncontrolled dark money, and an unvetted, foreign money debtor has posed a national security risk, and let's add nepotism (paid or otherwise) to that as well.

I'm just rattling on, and don't know if anything I typed here would help. I am thrilled VP Biden is leading in the polls, and he remains healthy, so we can start repairing inept Donald's huge mess.

Cyrano

(15,039 posts)
14. Many good ideas, dmr. But disclosures, vetting, Citizens United,
Sat Oct 10, 2020, 07:49 AM
Oct 2020

ridding ourselves of the EC, etc. doesn't protect us from an insane person, -- e.g.,"harmless, gentle" Norman Bates from "Psycho", -- or someone who may mentally deteriorate while in office (Ronald Reagan).

Many of the suggestions mentioned in this thread are excellent, but none really holds the solution for removing a sitting, mad president.

This is an extraordinarily difficult issue to deal with while keeping partisan politics out of it.

Buckeyeblue

(5,499 posts)
15. At this point I don't see a solution
Sat Oct 10, 2020, 09:37 AM
Oct 2020

I don't think the creators of the constitution anticipated that there would be such partisanship. If we are going to be honest, the constitution is out of date. It was written by white men who had racial and sexual biases. They knew little about science. Hell, at that point they hadn't figured out indoor plumbing. Or the importance of just washing your hands (what a controversy that notion turned out to be).

We really need a completely revised document ratified by popular vote, not representative vote. And we need national referendums. And national election standards. We need to become more of a democracy than a republic. Representatives should be in place to make sure government is working and to make the day to day decisions. Presidents should provide leadership. They should drive policy and vision. The SC should provide clarification. And when there isn't clarification, the SC should throw it back to the representatives to fix.

I know that is not a perfect option but what we have is broken.

Cyrano

(15,039 posts)
16. Regarding a revised document,
Sat Oct 10, 2020, 11:51 AM
Oct 2020

whether by popular vote, or even by representative vote, has tremendous pitfalls.

I know there's no way of saying this without sounding obnoxious and "elitist." But I just don't trust the intelligence of the American people to create a sound Constitutional document through a popular vote. Any "popular" vote would be a contaminated compromise due to the existence of hate radio, Fox "news," and the most malicious aspects of social media.

And a new Constitution developed by a legislative vote would be far worse. It would probably require another Constitutional Convention which would have the authority to dump the existing Constitution and create a new one from whole cloth. I wouldn't trust many of our legislative representatives to act in the best interest of anyone but themselves and those who have bought and own them.

Perhaps the only solution to achieving a fair and just society is evolution. After all, we humans have only been around for less than a blink of an instant since the big bang. Given time, we may become (what we today jokingly call) civilized. That's assuming we don't destroy ourselves first.

Buckeyeblue

(5,499 posts)
18. I'm with you on not trusting humans to create a new constitution
Sat Oct 10, 2020, 12:55 PM
Oct 2020

My only thought was that a popular vote would be better than state representation which allows the minority vote to have more of a voice than it should. If we voted on a constitution and were able to GOTV, I think we could have good results.

However, we are stuck. The only way to amend the constitution in this way would be to first amend the constitution the current way. Which is never going to happen. Our constitution is almost set up like a snake eating its own tail.

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