If we all vote and all the votes are counted, the President will win this election.

[porphyrian]

If you disagree with this statement, suggest a solution. Given history, we all have a right to be worried and feel nervous about what will happen, but we are currently looking at success and I think that maybe some of us are just having a hard time accepting it. Relax a little. If we all vote and all the votes are counted, the President will win this election.

Don't just say I'm wrong, suggest a solution.

[porphyrian]

1. Any takers? n/t

[cali]

2. Why don't you do some research?

Here's a start:

http://www.thenation.com/blog/169709/voter-suppression-confederacy-rises-again#

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/voting-rights-watch-2012

http://blackstarnews.com/news/135/ARTICLE/8480/2012-10-01.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/charles-a-santangelo/voter-supression_b_1875627.html

I don't think there is a solution beyond what is being done- challenges to these laws.

There seems little doubt that millions and millions of democratic voters will be disenfranchised. Republicans have made it harder for the elderly, minorities and ex-felons to vote.

[porphyrian]

5. So, what is your point, then?

If there is nothing we can do, we should sit around and complain and feel bad about it? Maybe we should lose all hope and convince Democrats who have not yet voted that they shouldn't bother? What is your intent with this?

[porphyrian]

8. ...also, you failed to suggest a solution. Please do so. n/t

[cali]

9. do try reading, honey.

[porphyrian]

10. I'm not your "honey," condescending person, and that is no solution.

Please, offer a solution for the problem you insist we must all wring hands about.

[cali]

11. It's in my prior post.

[porphyrian]

12. So, then, you have no solution.

You only have condescending, and possibly sexist, personal attacks and problems that may encourage Democrats not to bother voting with nothing that can be done about it in the next month. Good job. Keep that up.

[CrispyQ]

3. The part we're worried about is, "...and all the votes are counted..."

It's an age old problem. The best solution IMO, paper ballots counted by human beings.

[cali]

4. How would that help those effected by the myriad of new laws

making it more difficult to vote?

[CrispyQ]

6. It doesn't. The whole fucking electoral system is corrupt & compromised.

"The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery."
~Zappa


With each election a little more of the scenery is taken down.

[porphyrian]

14. That's my take. n/t

[porphyrian]

7. Agreed, but electronic voting machines are a reality in this election, as they have been since 2000.

If there is nothing we can do about them now, what is the point of endlessly brooding about it? I'm concerned that all of this concern is doing nothing but demoralizing future Democratic voters.

[porphyrian]

13. Anyone who actually has a solution? We have roughly a month. n/t

[porphyrian]

15. This is not an irrational position. n/t

[HopeHoops]

16. The one Australia adopted over 20 years ago - mandatory voting.

Our problem isn't voter fraud, it's the fact that only half of eligible voters BOTHER! Make it illegal NOT to vote.

[porphyrian]

17. I could support that. Isn't voting our civic duty?

If we made voting mandatory and forced businesses to accomodate it reasonably (maybe make voting day a real national holiday), I think that could work in the long term.

I don't think it will help much for this election, however, and that was sort of my point; why are so many people in a panic about voting issues we can do nothing about before the election? What purpose does that serve? What I know we can do is vote and make sure everyone we know votes. We can also report any voting problems to authorities. Beyond that...?

[HopeHoops]

18. Beyond that, you've got to have some faith that the machines haven't been fucked with.

I don't for a minute think that's the case, but there's a limit to how much fucking with they can do before it becomes statistically impossible.

[porphyrian]

19. It's easier if the election is actually close. I'm not convinced it will be. n/t

[HopeHoops]

20. There's no indication that it will be close. That's why I said "only so much".

I'm sure they'll do what they think they can get away with, but they don't have much wiggle room for cheating this time.

[porphyrian]

21. Right, we're agreeing.

That's why I'm not as concerned about the problems with electronic voting this time around, though it is still a valid concern, and why I'm suspicious of the motives of those who keep bringing it up now.

[HopeHoops]

22. What I don't buy is the "paper trails are expensive" argument. That's bullshit.

The majority of ES&S machines were originally Diebold boxes. A large portion of ATM and POS machines are Diebold. There's no paper trail on voting machines, but EVERY ATM and POS machine (including gas pumps) keeps a physical scrolling trail as well as a consumer receipt. Most of those get tossed out. You can't convince me that adding the same redundant (and serialized) paper trail to a voting machine is going to cost that much.

In a recount, the only thing the damn machines will do is spit out the first rigged number they spit out the first time. There IS no "recount". And yes, Diebold, PES, and ES&S are all Republican-run companies. Color me surprised.

[porphyrian]

23. Yep, that's bullshit.

Any government organization that claims something is too expensive really means the boss doesn't want it. The intent may not be particularly sinister; it may just be that they want to privatize the system so that their buddy can get the contract, nothing more.

[HopeHoops]

24. It's been privatized all along. Diebold isn't exactly a charity operation and certainly not "gubmint

[porphyrian]

25. Again, if the boss wanted it, they would make the change.

Everybody up to state Congresses may want the paper trail, but unless these Congresses vote for the funding to retrofit or replace the existing machines, it just won't happen. Even if the federal government were to provide the funding, they wouldn't be able to force states to use it. Piece of Shit, Rick Scott, is a good example of a Governor turning down federal funds to make an ideological point, regardless of its futility and affect on citizens who aren't millionaires. Electronic voting must be defeated state by state if not county by county.

If we want meaningful change, people have to get involved in Congressional races and vote in every election, not just Presidential ones, and force lawmakers to make laws for us, the people they are supposed to represent. This is frustrating and somewhat boring to most people, but it's the only real answer and it is not short term.

[HopeHoops]

26. I'm afraid "county by county" (or townships here in PA) will be the only path to success.

I don't see the state level being of much use, and the federal level is pretty much a joke in that arena. They don't have the authority.

[porphyrian]

27. I only say state level because of state laws. Local is the best place to start. n/t

[HopeHoops]

28. PA's a little different. We have 66 counties, but they don't amount to much.

Yeah, the sheriff's department is county-wide, but damn near everything else is township level. New Hampshire is like that as well. I've lived in both for long periods. I don't think we even have county police! In areas where there aren't any township police, the state police have to fill in. We've got a good force here (and they know me well, for various reasons).

But when it comes to election rules, that's pretty much a township issue. I don't think the county even has jurisdiction over it under the PA Constitution (not positive, just think not). Precincts and choice of counting methods are a local matter. I still don't trust them, but at least it's local.

The state only gets involved when they want to sway the results, like PA's new voter ID law. Corbett's an asswipe and he's got a house and senate full of asswipes to back him up. Still, Obama's going to win the state. It would take some MAJOR fucking with the machines to swing the other way and I'm sure the media will challenge it here. Obama's lead is way too high.

[porphyrian]

29. I don't think people realize how different things are state by state.

These differences are exactly why it is so hard to implement federal laws like the Affordable Health Care Act. Rick Scott of Florida is still acting like it didn't pass or will be repealed any minute now. Florida, which has been under republican rule for more than a decade now, runs more like a corporation (or so they would like it to), from the top down. Since the Governor and both houses of state Congress are republican, they get away with some incredible shit. Luckily, federal judges have been stepping in and declaring some of it unconstitutional, but those are usually only the most agregious cases. I'm glad to be out of Florida now.

[HopeHoops]

30. I grew up in MD where EVERYTHING was at the county level. PA and NH were quite different.

[Tigress DEM]

33. I like THAT one.

You want to be a lazy irresponsible dead beat non-Voter, fine....

Yeah, pay the fine, $10 whatever. Maybe increase it each non-Vote offense.

Be a lot less undecideds that way.

[porphyrian]

31. . n/t

[porphyrian]

32. . n/t