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George II

(67,782 posts)
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:03 PM Dec 2020

Squad Members Clap Back at Obama's 'Defund the Police' Clapback

By Tommy ChristopherDec 2nd, 2020, 10:11 am

Members of the self-styled Democratic “Squad” responded to President Barack Obama’s criticism of the slogan “Defund the Police” — which also prompted a mixture of strong reactions from other political and media figures on Twitter.

President Obama’s comments — published in part Tuesday night, but aired in full Wednesday morning on Peter Hamby’s Good Luck America show on Snapchat — included a pragmatic critique of the slogan, along with support for the reforms its adherents promote.

“If you believe, as I do, that we should be able to reform the criminal justice system so that it’s not biased, and treats everybody fairly, I guess you can use a snappy slogan like ‘Defund the Police,’ but you know you’ve lost a big audience the minute you say it. Which makes it a lot less likely that you’re actually going to get the changes you want done,” Obama said in one portion of the interview.

Minnesota Congresswoman Ilhan Omar clapped back at Obama by explaining that the slogan is “not a slogan.”


(Note: this is a follow up to the previous OP)

https://www.mediaite.com/news/squad-members-clap-back-at-obamas-defund-the-police-clapback/
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Squad Members Clap Back at Obama's 'Defund the Police' Clapback (Original Post) George II Dec 2020 OP
The Squad needs to take a lesson from Obama. Nt mcar Dec 2020 #1
And recognize that they are being destructive when they keep taking pot-shots The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 2020 #2
I think clap back has used its usefulness jimfields33 Dec 2020 #20
I rarely see them attacking Republicans mcar Dec 2020 #52
I think that's what bothers me the most PatSeg Dec 2020 #57
+1 treestar Dec 2020 #95
If you have to explain what "defund the police" means. . . DinahMoeHum Dec 2020 #3
Exactly Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Dec 2020 #71
Yes indeed. People forget how Obama got his start - as a community organizer. From where I sit... George II Dec 2020 #102
Yep PatSeg Dec 2020 #54
Obama lost downticket badly during his years, and radius777 Dec 2020 #91
Ms. Porter Grills Rs ProfessorGAC Dec 2020 #101
Yes, he learned from experience PatSeg Dec 2020 #106
Yes. Because Obama's two terms would have been SO much more successful stopdiggin Dec 2020 #113
Obama didn't lose "downticket". He won every one of his own races, both statewide & nationally. Tarheel_Dem Dec 2020 #138
The poster was talking about the "thumping" wellst0nev0ter Dec 2020 #147
Aw Jeez! I know "The Squad" has a fan club here, but like another failed presidential candidate, Tarheel_Dem Dec 2020 #158
"This is despite taking cues from Lieberman and the rest of the non-radicals." betsuni Dec 2020 #159
Urban districts like those represented by the Squad are why Biden won. radius777 Dec 2020 #157
This. cwydro Dec 2020 #75
Why couldn't the slogan have been "Reform the Police" exboyfil Dec 2020 #4
"Reform the Police" has been failing for decades. Jirel Dec 2020 #14
Sorry Nope... caber09 Dec 2020 #66
It depends on what your goal is. WhiskeyGrinder Dec 2020 #70
Yes it does.. caber09 Dec 2020 #72
. WhiskeyGrinder Dec 2020 #74
You continue to move forward, not cost us and help us move backward.. caber09 Dec 2020 #79
People like George Floyd cannot afford baby steps. WhiskeyGrinder Dec 2020 #83
You want the police to be abolished? are you serious? caber09 Dec 2020 #84
Yes. WhiskeyGrinder Dec 2020 #85
The Republicans thank you for your help..chaos is not a winning strategy. caber09 Dec 2020 #86
Yeah, it's not really an issue that lends itself well to electoral politics. WhiskeyGrinder Dec 2020 #124
You are so full of it...you need a plumber... caber09 Dec 2020 #130
We can develop all sorts of emergency responses that have nothing to do with the control-and-punish WhiskeyGrinder Dec 2020 #131
Sorry you are full of it... caber09 Dec 2020 #132
I mean, if a guy is attacking me, you're right -- in the moment, I'm worrying about my own WhiskeyGrinder Dec 2020 #133
Well at least you admitted something.. caber09 Dec 2020 #134
"Well at least you admitted something.." WhiskeyGrinder Dec 2020 #135
"Again, I'm unbothered. Activism work sometimes works hand-in-hand with electoral politics.." caber09 Dec 2020 #136
Police kill people no matter who is mayor, governor or president, or which party has the majority WhiskeyGrinder Dec 2020 #137
99% of them protect & serve, please get your head on straight... caber09 Dec 2020 #139
"Of course we need to reform more and make them more accountable" WhiskeyGrinder Dec 2020 #140
Make them accountable for their wrong doing, fire them if guilty... caber09 Dec 2020 #141
. WhiskeyGrinder Dec 2020 #143
You think you are living in a utopian universe that does not exist.. caber09 Dec 2020 #145
. WhiskeyGrinder Dec 2020 #146
that's pretty crazy stopdiggin Dec 2020 #114
I'm not concerned about where I stand when it comes to electoral politics. WhiskeyGrinder Dec 2020 #125
Historically both parties have been complicit in systemic racism and policing issues. radius777 Dec 2020 #96
"Reform" is popular because it is utterly meaningless Bettie Dec 2020 #103
You get it. The cops laugh at 'reform'. radius777 Dec 2020 #107
I'm also GenX and have been hearing Bettie Dec 2020 #109
Where do you guys live? I would love to know the districts you are in and see how it matches.. caber09 Dec 2020 #112
So, no one where you live believe that Bettie Dec 2020 #116
Thats a ridiculous answer.. caber09 Dec 2020 #119
AGREED. Basement Beat Dec 2020 #73
Exactly. FTP is the slogan I would use. But seriously radius777 Dec 2020 #93
They won't be helped by an ineffective slogan treestar Dec 2020 #97
Exactly, some people who should be on our side seem not to mind more Rs in office apparently caber09 Dec 2020 #111
They won't be helped by an ineffective slogan treestar Dec 2020 #98
Because we've been "reforming the police" for decades Mariana Dec 2020 #16
Apparently, we're supposed to ignore that Bettie Dec 2020 #105
I 100% agree!! nt USALiberal Dec 2020 #63
From the article -- Klaralven Dec 2020 #5
So who do they call when someone exboyfil Dec 2020 #6
They'll probably call someone who will show up six hours later, deucemagnet Dec 2020 #123
Will the police ever solve that crime? wellst0nev0ter Dec 2020 #148
I've seen at least one of "the squad" actually say this summer "abolish the police"..... George II Dec 2020 #7
It was attributed to Omar in June FBaggins Dec 2020 #19
Yes, I believe that was what PatSeg Dec 2020 #58
If their goal is to actually abolish the police, jrthin Dec 2020 #9
There was a very sobering report on The Newshour last week (I think) about... LAS14 Dec 2020 #10
Yeah, I agree. It is a knotty problem and both sides are right. KPN Dec 2020 #24
He wasn't criticizing the protests, LAS14 Dec 2020 #43
We have different perspectives. KPN Dec 2020 #45
That is an interesting way to say 'maybe I was wrong about that." SlogginThroughIt Dec 2020 #69
It is awfully presumptive... tonedevil Dec 2020 #77
I didn't presume that. SlogginThroughIt Dec 2020 #87
Guess you were just saying. /nt tonedevil Dec 2020 #88
We have different perspectives on that. There are those who can extrapolate ... KPN Dec 2020 #89
It is not a slogan, but also not great communication. Caliman73 Dec 2020 #53
They're right. Jirel Dec 2020 #8
That's why there's a problem with the slogan. It's that racists can successfully twist it and turn. LAS14 Dec 2020 #11
Racists successfully can twist ANY phrase. Jirel Dec 2020 #18
Bingo. The Rs run around nakedly violating every KPN Dec 2020 #27
Some pack more of a punch when twisted. Defund the Police, while accurately... LAS14 Dec 2020 #41
The phrasing is not the main problem treestar Dec 2020 #99
have to disagree stopdiggin Dec 2020 #115
I agree. I think I was thinking of the idea treestar Dec 2020 #128
Any problem isn't any slogan, it's what the slogan represents and how people interpret it... George II Dec 2020 #13
Ah, short memories. Jirel Dec 2020 #21
No its not... caber09 Dec 2020 #68
And that is why seasoned politicians PatSeg Dec 2020 #59
LOL BannonsLiver Dec 2020 #17
No, it is just a really bad slogan dansolo Dec 2020 #39
The purpose of a slogan is to successfully market Phoenix61 Dec 2020 #42
Hmmm. Sounds very similar to what I heard a few years ago on another topic gratuitous Dec 2020 #12
Sorry, I disagree - not even close. George II Dec 2020 #15
You're totally right gratuitous Dec 2020 #22
Reform the police has broad support on both sides of the aisle AmericanCanuck Dec 2020 #31
Oooh, if only we used the right word gratuitous Dec 2020 #51
Maybe seven votes out of 400K exboyfil Dec 2020 #65
No one is questioning that police reforms are Phoenix61 Dec 2020 #47
Police reforms are toothless wellst0nev0ter Dec 2020 #149
And what exactly does "shape up" mean. Phoenix61 Dec 2020 #150
Wow so complicated wellst0nev0ter Dec 2020 #151
Apparently too complicated for you to say what Phoenix61 Dec 2020 #152
I know when something is not worth my time wellst0nev0ter Dec 2020 #154
Like I said, short of a bad slogan you don't Phoenix61 Dec 2020 #155
Straw man treestar Dec 2020 #100
Those who are too comfortable with the status quo keep making the same mistakes. Jirel Dec 2020 #25
Baby step progress is not status quo. AmericanCanuck Dec 2020 #34
Stop with this BS...this is nonsense.. caber09 Dec 2020 #81
+1 betsuni Dec 2020 #120
We literally lost this seat over Defund the Police. Gothmog Dec 2020 #35
Sort of OT BannonsLiver Dec 2020 #23
She is not volatile and incendiary enough? AmericanCanuck Dec 2020 #29
You may be right BannonsLiver Dec 2020 #36
If Katie could bottle up her passion and give it to every Democratic congressperson out there mtnsnake Dec 2020 #56
Porter is plenty inciendary, just she's a cherubic white woman, radius777 Dec 2020 #129
Because She Remembers Who The Enemy Is? ProfessorGAC Dec 2020 #104
Yes, I appreciate the all business approach. BannonsLiver Dec 2020 #108
I Think I Would Take Political Advice from the Greatest Politician of Our Generation Skraxx Dec 2020 #26
This is akin to smaller animals in the jungle kvetching at a lion. AmericanCanuck Dec 2020 #28
I am starting to wonder if they are republicans in disguise? GemDigger Dec 2020 #30
They're not Republicans BannonsLiver Dec 2020 #40
I know they aren't. People are stupid and to them "defund the police" means get rid of the PD in GemDigger Dec 2020 #46
Yep BannonsLiver Dec 2020 #49
Obama Says 'Defund The Police' Alienates Voters, Drawing Sharp Rebuke From The Left Gothmog Dec 2020 #32
I remember in the 60s the slogan was "If you don't like the cops, call a hippie.". marie999 Dec 2020 #33
"and if you go carryin' pictures of Chairman Mao ..." stopdiggin Dec 2020 #117
Obama is 100% AlexSFCA Dec 2020 #37
Ya know, if police are murdering Americans, KPN Dec 2020 #38
I see the "they oughta wanna" syndrome here. LAS14 Dec 2020 #44
Worst slogan in modern politcal history. tman Dec 2020 #48
I lulz'd KG Dec 2020 #50
The Squad needs to learn not to be so pig headed. You shouldn't continue to defend a term Vinca Dec 2020 #55
How many people are actually in the 'squad'? Any new members? Demsrule86 Dec 2020 #61
The problem is right here peggysue2 Dec 2020 #60
That was the message that was picked up by the Minneapolis City Council. Someone introduced.... George II Dec 2020 #82
Ya think? peggysue2 Dec 2020 #90
Defund the police sounded like we wanted complete anarchy in the streets Jamesyu Dec 2020 #62
Obama is correct. Defund the police has "lose" all over it. TheCowsCameHome Dec 2020 #64
Obama is right WA-03 Democrat Dec 2020 #67
It is the worst slogan in modern political history AnyFunctioningAdult Dec 2020 #76
Amen, right on, 10000% Agreed...defund the PD is a great path to Republican majority rule, no thanks caber09 Dec 2020 #80
Bleh Dem2 Dec 2020 #78
I'm happy to see that progressives on the ground in Georgia seem to understand Obama's point. LAS14 Dec 2020 #92
A few more paragraphs, it's a very good article. Both Warnock and Ossoff know what wins in GA: George II Dec 2020 #94
real adults, doing real politics! who knew? (nt) stopdiggin Dec 2020 #118
Why 'Defund The Police' Attacks Were So Potent Against Democrats Gothmog Dec 2020 #110
Unbelievable that we are arguing (the party is) over branding... JCMach1 Dec 2020 #121
They seem really really attached to certain slogans. As if the slogan was more important than the betsuni Dec 2020 #122
"Clap back".. lol. President Obama is Cha Dec 2020 #126
Yep, and they're using that bullshit against Warnock and Ossoff in the GA run-offs. GoCubsGo Dec 2020 #142
Of course the maggots are using this Cha Dec 2020 #144
Everyone in this thread saying reform hasn't worked BGBD Dec 2020 #127
You are 100% correct! It has been working and will still be working, and reform will continue.... George II Dec 2020 #156
Obama is right. I can't believe this is even a debate. Blasphemer Dec 2020 #153

The Velveteen Ocelot

(116,136 posts)
2. And recognize that they are being destructive when they keep taking pot-shots
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:10 PM
Dec 2020

at Democrats at a time when the GOP has become a dangerous cult, and for the love of God stop all that purity shit.

jimfields33

(16,323 posts)
20. I think clap back has used its usefulness
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:35 PM
Dec 2020

I cringe that it’s even used at all. Nancy used it perfectly. But, I think it’s used too much now. I know it’s the media using it all the time.

As far as criticising President Obama? Don’t do it anyone.

PatSeg

(47,848 posts)
57. I think that's what bothers me the most
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 01:29 PM
Dec 2020

We have some very serious problems ahead of us and republicans are the roadblocks to solving those problems. This is not the time to be trying to undermine our Democratic leaders, leaders who usually know more than the freshmen congressional representatives. There will be time to hash out our differences down the road, but we have two senate races in Georgia to win, a new president to swear in, and a cabinet to confirm.

Timing is really important and we don't need any negative Democratic headlines right now.

DinahMoeHum

(21,861 posts)
3. If you have to explain what "defund the police" means. . .
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:11 PM
Dec 2020

. . .your message and marketing suck.

The "Squad" should STFU for once 'cause they still have a lot to learn from a grizzled community organizer.

George II

(67,782 posts)
102. Yes indeed. People forget how Obama got his start - as a community organizer. From where I sit...
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 04:46 PM
Dec 2020

...he was pretty good at it, knows what he's talking about, and I suspect we all think he's done very well for himself over the years.

PatSeg

(47,848 posts)
54. Yep
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 01:23 PM
Dec 2020

Obama is a master politician. He knows what he's talking about. The newbies who have served barely two years in congress evidently think they are experts at politics. Sometimes it pays to close your mouth and open your ears.

radius777

(3,635 posts)
91. Obama lost downticket badly during his years, and
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 04:20 PM
Dec 2020

if you listen to his entire speech he said we need to listen more to AOC and younger voices.

Funny how Katie Porter is never to told to 'close her mouth'.

ProfessorGAC

(65,593 posts)
101. Ms. Porter Grills Rs
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 04:44 PM
Dec 2020

There isn't a lot of noise from her toward fellow dems. She's directed her aggression toward the appropriate targets.
Comparing her to the squad is an apples & oranges analogy.

PatSeg

(47,848 posts)
106. Yes, he learned from experience
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 04:53 PM
Dec 2020

and I appreciate that he said we need to listen to younger voices, but his point about "Defund the Police" appears to be right. Often experience DOES count.

As for a comparison to Katie Porter? She is usually focused on republicans and the Trump administration, not fellow Democrats. Though she may be new, she is more centered and pragmatic.

We have some serious issues ahead of us and this is not the time for Democrats to be attacking fellow Democrats. There will be time enough for such challenges in the near future. Meanwhile, our first priority is the senate races in Georgia, a Biden/Harris cabinet, and tackling the pandemic. I think some people get stuck in primary mode and forget to shift gears.

stopdiggin

(11,458 posts)
113. Yes. Because Obama's two terms would have been SO much more successful
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 05:48 PM
Dec 2020

if ONLY he had listened more to Bernie Sanders. 'Course it would.
----- ---- -----

Tarheel_Dem

(31,262 posts)
138. Obama didn't lose "downticket". He won every one of his own races, both statewide & nationally.
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 03:25 PM
Dec 2020

"The Squad" could take lessons from Obama except they seem so impressed with their ability to win in their very BLUE, very SAFE districts. They are but 3 out of 435. I'd love to see any of them try to mount a statewide race, and see how quickly they try to get Obama to come stump for them.

Katie Porter takes care of business. She knows where to aim her ire.

 

wellst0nev0ter

(7,509 posts)
147. The poster was talking about the "thumping"
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 06:42 PM
Dec 2020

Dems suffered in congressional races in 2010 and 2012.

This is despite taking cues from Lieberman and the rest of the non-radicals.

Tarheel_Dem

(31,262 posts)
158. Aw Jeez! I know "The Squad" has a fan club here, but like another failed presidential candidate,
Fri Dec 4, 2020, 02:41 AM
Dec 2020

it's more about the things they say, than the things they actually get done. Those Dems who lost in the Obama midterms went down because of healthcare, which is radically more popular nationally, than "The Squad".

radius777

(3,635 posts)
157. Urban districts like those represented by the Squad are why Biden won.
Fri Dec 4, 2020, 01:55 AM
Dec 2020

This idea that somehow those districts (and the people who represent them) are irrelevant to Dem politics is absurd.

If Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Detroit, Philly, Atlanta etc didn't turn out a huge Dem vote then Biden does not win those states.

Dems can't win any statewide race without strong urban turnout. The modern day Dem party is a metrocentric party.

exboyfil

(17,871 posts)
4. Why couldn't the slogan have been "Reform the Police"
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:11 PM
Dec 2020

with a list of reforms under the slogan.


The Defund the Police ads were not responded to in Iowa. I am sure it cost us a House seat and quite possible a second House seat and the Senate seat (even though our lightweight candidate was a bigger contributor in my opinion).

Jirel

(2,037 posts)
14. "Reform the Police" has been failing for decades.
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:23 PM
Dec 2020

It’s a weak phrase that has been watered down until it means nothing. You also have to explain “Reform the Police,” so it’s no better. All it stands for now is endless broken promises to the African-American community.

It’s time to embrace and own “Defund the Police.” Apparently only the right wing is “allowed” to say anything it wants and fu** everyone’s feelings about it, according to some people. That’s pretty sad.

We heard this angst over “Black Lives Matter” too. That objection is mostly dead, thank goodness.

If you like the votes of young people, African American people, and the progressive dude of the party, it’s time to stop whining about “Defund the Police,” and instead embrace it and work toward that vision. Or 4 years from now, the squishy moderates will be looking for excuses for why we have Donald Trump for another term.

 

caber09

(666 posts)
66. Sorry Nope...
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 01:55 PM
Dec 2020

Police Reform is more popular than "defund the police" which is political suicide..it cost us plenty of seats and made many in liberal places like NYC too close for comfort...when you have the liberal NYC council, the NYS Senate, Rep Spamberger, Rep Clyburn and a whole host of people across the spectrum say the same thing..its time to pay attention. No one other than the fringe and the squad want to defund the police...we all want police reform...which by the way passed in Massachusetts this week...every group of people you listed want to feel safe from crime in their neighborhoods..the reforms our side is working on will help them feel safer...I come from a deep deep blue district 2 over from AOC..noone here wants to defund the police...AOC would not win in my Queens district 2 districts away from her district...defunding the police is a non starter, sorry. I will stick with President Obama on this as well.

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,578 posts)
70. It depends on what your goal is.
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 02:02 PM
Dec 2020

"Reform the Police" might not scare off voters, but reforming the police doesn't work.

 

caber09

(666 posts)
72. Yes it does..
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 02:08 PM
Dec 2020

Small improvements are better than no improvements, or having more Rs in office blocking everything else we want to accomplish. Police reform was def on the table after George Floyd, until this defund the police BS started. You want to lose elections, get more things reversed than the past 4 yrs, then defund the police is a great way to do that. Again the slogan and being tied to it (while the squad quadruples down on it) COST us seats and made many seats alot closer than they should up and down the ballot...even in liberal areas...why is that? Why are Dems from across the spectrum from different wings blaming defund the police?...Simple..bec it cost us big time..thankfully Biden wanted no part of Defund the Police...thats why we will have a new President on Jan 20, if he embraced it or ignored it we would be heading toward a 2nd Trump term.

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,578 posts)
74. .
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 02:15 PM
Dec 2020
Police reform was def on the table after George Floyd,
The cops who murdered George Floyd were on a force that has been reformed several times in its 150-year history. The system cannot be reformed.

 

caber09

(666 posts)
79. You continue to move forward, not cost us and help us move backward..
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 02:29 PM
Dec 2020

New reforms would be baby steps to improving upon past police reforms...if you think defund the police is a good slogan/idea etc, enjoy Republican rule then...I hope you live in a very very deep blue district....bec as I said my very deep deep blue district in Queens NY would not vote for this.

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,578 posts)
83. People like George Floyd cannot afford baby steps.
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 02:43 PM
Dec 2020

I don't believe "defund the police" is a good slogan, because I want the police abolished. I also don't see police abolition as an electoral politics issue, although it can certainly be used in bad faith as one.

 

caber09

(666 posts)
86. The Republicans thank you for your help..chaos is not a winning strategy.
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 03:12 PM
Dec 2020

What state/city are you in? That is just nuts and plays right into the hands of the Republicans. How are you going to keep the community protected? Who are you going to call when someone needs help? You want the wild wild west? Abolishing the police went nowhere even in Minneapolis. Come on Man, that is just a ridiculous concept, but a great way to lose elections.

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,578 posts)
124. Yeah, it's not really an issue that lends itself well to electoral politics.
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 07:15 PM
Dec 2020

On the other hand, I like to look at ways to solve problems that don't rely on Republicans or Democrats. It certainly helps to have certain people in office, but there's never a bad time to talk about police abolition.

How are you going to keep the community protected?
Is the community protected now?

Who are you going to call when someone needs help?
Depends on the help I need. Right now, the police aren't great at providing help.
 

caber09

(666 posts)
130. You are so full of it...you need a plumber...
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 11:42 PM
Dec 2020

So how you getting the help you need in emergency? What do you mean what kind of help? Guy is wielding a knife...the social worker is going to save you? Most (yes there are obviously bad cops)...those responding to a call will help you...what help are you seeking...are you advocating vigilantes? Chaos? Anarchy? Saying you don't care about electoral politics shows that you still don't understand that elections matter...I'm still curious to hear what state or district you live in to see how your slogan holds up with the majority of voters

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,578 posts)
131. We can develop all sorts of emergency responses that have nothing to do with the control-and-punish
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 09:38 AM
Dec 2020

approach of the police.

It doesn't always feel like it, but the vast majority of people commit crimes because they need something. If a guy is wielding a knife, what does he need? He's trying to rob me or someone for money, which probably means he's an addict, which means I want him to get help. He's having a mental breakdown and, because people with mental illness are disproportionately victims of violence themselves, I want him to get help. He's a serial killer, which means I definitely want him to get help.

And what do I need? If a man wields a knife at me now, the police can't really help me, can they? I have to rely on myself for help and protection. Later I might need a medical first responder, mental and emotional support depending on what he and I did to each other, an insurance adjuster if I'm at home, an investigator to figure out who he was. With the current model of police leaving the majority of violent and property crimes unsolved, I'm not convinced the police are the ones who can help me.

In an abolitionist model, the resources that go to police departments now are instead applied to prevention efforts -- people get addicted for all sorts of reasons, many of which are preventable, for example -- and victim support efforts, with the idea that as people's needs are increasingly met, armed agents of the state whose primary duties are to subdue, hurt and punish won't be needed at all.

Police abolition is not an on-off switch. This is a huge cultural change that would require some on- and off-ramping of services. But I believe it's achievable and we should try.

 

caber09

(666 posts)
132. Sorry you are full of it...
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 11:02 AM
Dec 2020

Guy is wielding a knife and you...and you are thinking, this guy needs help, why is he doing this, what does he need.....get the F outta here...you arent thinking about that...and all the things that youll need after you are attacked/situation is resolved...sorry your are full of it. Does anyone else believe THESE are the things he is thinking about while getting held up, threatened or attacked. You do not live in reality, you live in some utopian rainbow unicorn filled universe....again where do you live that you think this is a reality, im not asking for your address, im asking for state/district/your rep....lets see how much your BS matches up with reality. Again does anyone else believe this person is thinking about the attackers needs and wants when about to get attacked?

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,578 posts)
133. I mean, if a guy is attacking me, you're right -- in the moment, I'm worrying about my own
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 11:18 AM
Dec 2020

protection. But the police aren't there, so who do I have to rely on? Myself and anyone else who might be there in that moment. My community. Once the police get there and the guy is gone, what are they going to do? Probably not solve whatever crime the guy with the knife committed. I want better for my community.

I currently live in a blue district, and have lived in blue urban areas, red suburban areas, and blue and red rural areas.

 

caber09

(666 posts)
134. Well at least you admitted something..
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 02:26 PM
Dec 2020

that in the heat of the moment your kumbaya concern for the person attacking you or a loved one was fantasy...thank you...and since you have lived in all the listed places, as have I....I can tell you how many communities across the spectrum would want to abolish the entire police department...ZERO...and how many elections would be won on a platform of disbanding the entire police force...ZERO...I would be willing to bet that the district you are in right now wouldnt want that either....I know mine wouldnt.

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,578 posts)
135. "Well at least you admitted something.."
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 02:40 PM
Dec 2020
that in the heat of the moment your kumbaya concern for the person attacking you or a loved one was fantasy...thank you
I'm not sure why you frame that as an "admission" or as if it's some kind of gotcha, but okay.

...and since you have lived in all the listed places, as have I....I can tell you how many communities across the spectrum would want to abolish the entire police department...ZERO...
I'm not bothered. Police abolition is an important part of the conversation around "reform," and many ideas we embrace and defend today were unpopular several years ago and dismissed as pipe dreams and fantasies before that.

and how many elections would be won on a platform of disbanding the entire police force...ZERO...I would be willing to bet that the district you are in right now wouldnt want that either....I know mine wouldnt.
Again, I'm unbothered. Activism work sometimes works hand-in-hand with electoral politics, and sometimes it works parallel to it. I'll continue to work toward a world without police with the tools I have.
 

caber09

(666 posts)
136. "Again, I'm unbothered. Activism work sometimes works hand-in-hand with electoral politics.."
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 03:11 PM
Dec 2020

Yep you and AOC, Tliab and Omars of the world can have fun in your fantasy world together.....while emboldening and enabling Republicans to win more elections...I hope its worth it to you...I prefer accomplishing progress instead of causing us to have to dig out of a bigger hole every few years. Your philosophy = electoral disaster for our side and regression of things that took generations to accomplish.

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,578 posts)
137. Police kill people no matter who is mayor, governor or president, or which party has the majority
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 03:20 PM
Dec 2020

in a state house or the White House. That's a pretty deep hole on its own.

 

caber09

(666 posts)
139. 99% of them protect & serve, please get your head on straight...
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 03:26 PM
Dec 2020

Of course we need to reform more and make them more accountable, every innocent death is a tragedy and the goal is to stop them from happening...you also seem way too concerned about the violent criminal when guilty though...but your abolition goal is just ridiculous.

 

caber09

(666 posts)
141. Make them accountable for their wrong doing, fire them if guilty...
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 03:36 PM
Dec 2020

Reform the relationship with the unions, there are ideas to do it, noone says its easy, progress is never and will never be easy...may not be perfect but a point to begin with...its better than disbanding an entire police force as you suggested over and over...you know what makes it even harder...screaming to defund and disband the entire police force in areas where people want to feel safe...and by the way you are on the wrong side of Obama, Lewis, Clyburn, Biden, Harris, etc opinions just for a frame of reference...along with a wide range of people from them, to Spanberger, to the NYC Council and NYS Senate....Defund the police was a gift to trump and the Rs.

How are you fighting crime, enforcing laws and preventing chaos in your policeless world?

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,578 posts)
143. .
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 03:55 PM
Dec 2020
Make them accountable for their wrong doing, fire them if guilty...
Cops aren't usually charged, and when they are, few are found guilty.

Reform the relationship with the unions, there are ideas to do it,
What are they? Reform whose relationship with the unions?

noone says its easy, progress is never and will never be easy...may not be perfect but a point to begin with
What are the goals with these two suggestions?

and by the way you are on the wrong side of Obama, Lewis, Clyburn, Biden, Harris, etc opinions just for a frame of reference...along with a wide range of people from them, to Spanberger, to the NYC Council and NYS Senate
Don't I know it!

How are you fighting crime, enforcing laws and preventing chaos in your policeless world?
I mean, "fighting crime" is a pretty generous way of looking at it. As I've mentioned, the police don't have a great record with solving violent or property crimes. Are you experiencing chaos right now? If not, is it the police who are preventing it?

We know the vast majority of crime is a result of people's needs not being met, and in an abolitionist model, the community commits to meeting those needs before crime happens. People rarely act completely irrationally; there is some kind of self-interest behind it. When those interests are met, crime looks different.



 

caber09

(666 posts)
145. You think you are living in a utopian universe that does not exist..
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 05:09 PM
Dec 2020

with unicorns, rainbows...etc..time to live in reality.
"We know the vast majority of crime is a result of people's needs not being met, and in an abolitionist model, the community commits to meeting those needs before crime happens. People rarely act completely irrationally; there is some kind of self-interest behind it. When those interests are met, crime looks different."

And how are you going to accomplish your utopia, your perfect world with no crime...how is the community going to acquiesce to your wishes of meeting the environment & needs for every single person with no crime without a police force....I would love to hear your far out like ideas that are non-starters...again please join all of us back in reality. I do wish you good fortune on your journey to this perfect place you seek.

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,578 posts)
146. .
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 05:33 PM
Dec 2020
You think you are living in a utopian universe that does not exist..
Not at all. It's very clear to me that I live in a society that is finding it really difficult to let go of the idea that the police are there to protect and serve everyone, and just a little more money or a little more training is all it will take to make things perfect.

how is the community going to acquiesce to your wishes of meeting the environment & needs for every single person
It's funny, I hear a lot in the Democratic Party about how we want to remove barriers and increase access for people to get what they need. But it always surprises me how quickly people get hung up on "worthy" or "unworthy" recipients -- that we can't forgive college loans because rich people will benefit, that people who take drugs maybe should get a different kind of "universal" healthcare than the rest of us, that we can't just GIVE people houses. Pushing police abolition faces the same challenges. It's definitely not an overnight solution. In the meantime, I'll just keep learning about it, and talking about it with people like it's a reachable goal, and being a dick online about it, and believing a better way is possible.

stopdiggin

(11,458 posts)
114. that's pretty crazy
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 05:55 PM
Dec 2020

but thank you at least for articulating your position clearly.
It is a big tent -- but I think you're mostly standing out in the rain on this one.

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,578 posts)
125. I'm not concerned about where I stand when it comes to electoral politics.
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 07:17 PM
Dec 2020

I do know, though, that the police can't be reformed and the institution should be abolished.

radius777

(3,635 posts)
96. Historically both parties have been complicit in systemic racism and policing issues.
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 04:35 PM
Dec 2020

You can't solve this problem without massive action that busts the police unions - essentially breakdown and remake the police based upon hiring of qualified individuals suited for the job, with proper background checks to weed out the psychopaths and bad apples. Alot of what the police currently do should be done by social workers and mental health people, etc. Police have no business in most of the calls they respond to. 'Remake the Police' would be just as disliked by the pro-police crowd as much as 'Defund the Police' is. It's not about slogans but about scared White America not wanting to hold the police accountable.

Bettie

(16,168 posts)
103. "Reform" is popular because it is utterly meaningless
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 04:48 PM
Dec 2020

it never happens...or worse, they give cops little baseball card things and send them to schools to hand them out.

Then, they declare victory and never address, bias, brutality, extrajudicial killings, or any other problems. Just put a picture of a cop with a dog and you're done!

radius777

(3,635 posts)
107. You get it. The cops laugh at 'reform'.
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 05:00 PM
Dec 2020

The policing issue has been going on for years, and everyone (at least of my generation, gen-x) thought things would change after Rodney King but things only got worse.

The cops think they're above the law and both political parties are complicit in this issue. Even deep blue cities often fail to hold the po po accountable.

Bettie

(16,168 posts)
109. I'm also GenX and have been hearing
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 05:03 PM
Dec 2020

about these fabled "reforms" for all of my adult life.

There is never any actual reform, just a few cosmetic changes, but nothing to deal with underlying problems of workplace culture.

 

caber09

(666 posts)
112. Where do you guys live? I would love to know the districts you are in and see how it matches..
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 05:15 PM
Dec 2020

with your current officials...because I come from a very deep blue district in NY, 2 districts over from AOC actually, and almost none of what she says would fly in my district.

Bettie

(16,168 posts)
116. So, no one where you live believe that
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 06:15 PM
Dec 2020

extrajudicial killings by cops is wrong? Wow. Interesting.

 

caber09

(666 posts)
119. Thats a ridiculous answer..
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 06:37 PM
Dec 2020

No one here is for that...that is just a cop out response form you...the system def needs to be reformed...cant do that with more Rs in office bec of terrible slogans to run on hurting Dems up and down the ticket on all levels..., what state/district are you in? I would love to see how your defund the police goes over in your district. I am in New York, I grew up in very deep blue Queens, 2 districts over from AOC, she would not win my home district, Weiner & Meng were my reps, and now in Nassau my Rep is now Rice in Nassau, AOC would get creamed here too...I have always had a D Rep...defunding the police is HIGHLY unpopular....alot of good Dems lost statewide here and nationwide because of this BS...how does that help our side....hint...it doesnt....where are you?

radius777

(3,635 posts)
93. Exactly. FTP is the slogan I would use. But seriously
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 04:25 PM
Dec 2020

the RW and anyone sympathetic to the 'pro police' view doesn't like any criticism of the police at all. They don't like the very concept of BLM - has little to do with the wording of 'defund the police'. Kaepernick kneeled silently and was demonized by White America, many of whom view the police as their 'personal security force' to keep PoC down.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
97. They won't be helped by an ineffective slogan
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 04:36 PM
Dec 2020

Or a damaging slogan, now will they? More Republicans in Congress does not help at all.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
98. They won't be helped by an ineffective slogan
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 04:36 PM
Dec 2020

Or a damaging slogan, now will they? More Republicans in Congress does not help at all.

Mariana

(14,864 posts)
16. Because we've been "reforming the police" for decades
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:24 PM
Dec 2020

and it's mostly been ineffective. Every so often a Supreme Court decision reins them in a little bit, but there's a very long history of police brutality and violation of citizens' civil rights, and it doesn't seem to be getting any better.

Bettie

(16,168 posts)
105. Apparently, we're supposed to ignore that
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 04:53 PM
Dec 2020

and think "THIS TIME it will work!".

Fact is, police "unions" are the biggest hurdle to any substantial change to police culture. It has been growing more violent, more militarized, and frankly, more racist in recent years. "Warrior Training", teaching cops that they are fighting insurgents (that's us, the citizens of the towns and cities they work in), and just generally making an assumption that everyone is the enemy.

 

Klaralven

(7,510 posts)
5. From the article --
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:12 PM
Dec 2020
It’s a bit like explaining that “Stab All Babies” is simply an activist call to vaccinate infants against deadly diseases, why do you hate babies and want them to die?

And while the message has been expanded to include policy reforms, the goal of many “Defund the Police” organizers actually is to actually abolish the police.

deucemagnet

(4,549 posts)
123. They'll probably call someone who will show up six hours later,
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 07:00 PM
Dec 2020

tell you that most burglars don't get caught and victims never get their property back, shrug their shoulders, tell you that there's nothing they can do, then leave.

In other words, the cops.

George II

(67,782 posts)
7. I've seen at least one of "the squad" actually say this summer "abolish the police".....
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:13 PM
Dec 2020

....wish I'd saved it back at the time.

FBaggins

(26,828 posts)
19. It was attributed to Omar in June
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:33 PM
Dec 2020

Though I think she was saying that the Minneapolis department should be entirely replaced.

PatSeg

(47,848 posts)
58. Yes, I believe that was what
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 01:31 PM
Dec 2020

it was in reference to. I think I heard it more than once. I understand the sentiment, but it was a rather impractical solution.

jrthin

(4,843 posts)
9. If their goal is to actually abolish the police,
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:16 PM
Dec 2020

this is when I leave and say they are on their own.

LAS14

(13,801 posts)
10. There was a very sobering report on The Newshour last week (I think) about...
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:18 PM
Dec 2020

... what's going on in Minneapolis, a significant increase in crime being thing. It's a knotty problem, and if your police force is loaded with right wingers (as an FBI report of a few years ago warned), reform instead of annihilation doesn't come easy. I feel for the black woman who was promoted to chief of police in some southeastern city after widely publicized violence (sorry I can't remember the city.. I'd like to follow her.) She said the fundamental thing that is required is to ensure the good character of the personnel.

A knotty, knotty problem, and I am sympathetic to the rage felt by the citizens of some cities that lies behind such a strong slogan.

But I also think Obama is right.

KPN

(15,696 posts)
24. Yeah, I agree. It is a knotty problem and both sides are right.
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:36 PM
Dec 2020

I’m not sure why it is even coming up as an intra-party issue right now. The election’s over. Did something prompt Obama to make this observation yesterday? He’s right about it loses some people, but it also sounds like he’s criticizing some Democrats, and it definitely criticizes those who stood up to authoritarianism on the ground in the wake of George Floyd’s murder. On balance, I’d say both sides are both right and wrong. Chill. It isn’t a Democratic Party slogan, it isn’t a campaign slogan.

LAS14

(13,801 posts)
43. He wasn't criticizing the protests,
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 01:00 PM
Dec 2020

"and it definitely criticizes those who stood up to authoritarianism on the ground in the wake of George Floyd’s murder."

He was criticizing the slogan.

Caliman73

(11,760 posts)
53. It is not a slogan, but also not great communication.
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 01:19 PM
Dec 2020

The goal of some (the most upset) is likely to end policing. The goal of most in the "defund" camp is to make police less relevant by increasing the services and needed funding to groups that deal with the actual problems that facilitate criminal activity.

I have said many times, the goal is to fund housing, so as to eliminate the problems associated with people being homeless, congregating together in run down and unsafe spaces. Provide people with food. Provide jobs programs. Increase funding for drug treatment. Hire social workers, therapists, and community organizers. All of these things would reduce crime at its source rather than require a police force to respond after the fact.

There would likely still be a need for police in communities but they would be a much smaller and more specialized and dedicated force. A smaller more dedicated, better trained force is more controllable and malleable.

I would go with "End police violence, Fund Communities" but that does not roll of the tongue either.

Jirel

(2,037 posts)
8. They're right.
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:16 PM
Dec 2020

The problem isn’t the slogan. The problem is that racists will intentionally twist any phrase or pretend they don’t understand it. Obama is just plain wrong on this. He’s human, and he gets to make mistakes.

LAS14

(13,801 posts)
11. That's why there's a problem with the slogan. It's that racists can successfully twist it and turn.
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:19 PM
Dec 2020

.. it against the cause it promotes.

Jirel

(2,037 posts)
18. Racists successfully can twist ANY phrase.
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:33 PM
Dec 2020

We’ve been doing “Police Reform” for decades. Those that haven’t been twisting the phrase to fight it, have been using it to reform the police into the heavily militarized gang of untouchable thugs they are today. The phrase is not the problem. The problem is people not getting serious about doing it.

KPN

(15,696 posts)
27. Bingo. The Rs run around nakedly violating every
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:44 PM
Dec 2020

ethic, spread bald-faced lies openly, carry out crimes in open sight, and we run around wringing our hands about being perfect. Geesh!

LAS14

(13,801 posts)
41. Some pack more of a punch when twisted. Defund the Police, while accurately...
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:57 PM
Dec 2020

.... representing the high stakes in the issue, is one of those that can be twisted with more impact.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
99. The phrasing is not the main problem
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 04:38 PM
Dec 2020

It's not like using a different phrase will cause more reforms.

The militarization is due to 911, IMO.

stopdiggin

(11,458 posts)
115. have to disagree
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 06:10 PM
Dec 2020

the phrasing IS the main problem. As has been pointed out many, many times if you have to deconstruct, map out and draw diagrams so that the public actually understands what you're trying to get at ....

The slogan is the problem --not the idea.
This one was a loser -- and it isn't being improved by retrenching and going back to battle over it again and again.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
128. I agree. I think I was thinking of the idea
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 08:17 PM
Dec 2020

that using "reform" hasn't caused enough to happen and that using "defund" would somehow lead to more reform.

George II

(67,782 posts)
13. Any problem isn't any slogan, it's what the slogan represents and how people interpret it...
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:23 PM
Dec 2020

But that doesn't absolve the slogan itself of causing damage.

Jirel

(2,037 posts)
21. Ah, short memories.
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:35 PM
Dec 2020

Several years ago we heard the same rhetoric in DU about “Black Lives Matter” as a phrase. Now it’s only objectionable to the hardest-core right-wing racists. That phrase didn’t cause harm. It did cause a hard conversation about racism and privilege including on the left. “Defund the Police” is the same.

 

caber09

(666 posts)
68. No its not...
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 02:00 PM
Dec 2020

Because Black lives do matter...defunding and/or abolishing the police makes ZERO sense and is political suicide, unless you want more crime which will lead to more R office holders

PatSeg

(47,848 posts)
59. And that is why seasoned politicians
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 01:35 PM
Dec 2020

choose their words very carefully. Experience has taught them that the opposition will take and twist careless words and use them against you. Obama learned that with "clinging to their god and guns" remark in 2008. Some mistakes can't be walked back.

dansolo

(5,376 posts)
39. No, it is just a really bad slogan
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:52 PM
Dec 2020

Defunding is interpreted by most people to mean elimination, which will never be an option.

Phoenix61

(17,039 posts)
42. The purpose of a slogan is to successfully market
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:57 PM
Dec 2020

an idea or product. If it makes people not like your idea or product it’s a bad slogan. Marketing agencies have focus groups for a reason, to see if the slogan is effective. It doesn’t matter how much the agency or the people who are paying for the slogan like it if it doesn’t sell the product or idea. It’s all about marketing. I think I’m going to believe the first black President who got himself elected not once but twice when he says it’s a bad slogan.

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
12. Hmmm. Sounds very similar to what I heard a few years ago on another topic
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:22 PM
Dec 2020

Advocates for the notion of a $15 an hour minimum wage were similarly cautioned. Too much. Too fast. Would hurt the very people it's supposed to help. Be quiet. Just wait a little longer. You're alienating people who think $7.25 an hour is too much.

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
22. You're totally right
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:35 PM
Dec 2020

Survivors of police violence just need to get with the program and not alienate others with their wild notions. If law enforcement is accosting pedestrians on the street and bundling them into unmarked vans, that's just part of the way things are, and should never be changed, not even questioned. I can't imagine why anyone would want anything different. After all, I'm still walking around free.

 

AmericanCanuck

(1,102 posts)
31. Reform the police has broad support on both sides of the aisle
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:49 PM
Dec 2020

Defund the police is a loser. I agree with President Obama.

Phoenix61

(17,039 posts)
47. No one is questioning that police reforms are
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 01:06 PM
Dec 2020

unquestionably needed and have been. It’s about how to build wide support so that it actually happens. Defund police doesn’t say what we want to happen. A slogan that speaks to what we want to move towards rather than what we want to move away from would be more powerful. I’m not a marketing major but “Growing Safe Communities”?

 

wellst0nev0ter

(7,509 posts)
149. Police reforms are toothless
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 06:53 PM
Dec 2020

Assign some sensitivity classes and call it a day.

Defund the police is effective because it conveys leverage: shape up or we'll shut you down.

Phoenix61

(17,039 posts)
150. And what exactly does "shape up" mean.
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 07:07 PM
Dec 2020

Who is going to over see and enforce “shape up.” All you’ve done is repeat a bad slogan.

 

wellst0nev0ter

(7,509 posts)
151. Wow so complicated
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 07:14 PM
Dec 2020

Might as well abandon police defunding or reform for that matter. Goes over the heads of too many folks.

Phoenix61

(17,039 posts)
152. Apparently too complicated for you to say what
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 07:19 PM
Dec 2020

you mean by “shape up” or how you would implement it.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
100. Straw man
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 04:39 PM
Dec 2020

and getting the reforms is from a different place. Naturally victims will feel strongly, but that does not make them right in terms of how to get reform through.

Jirel

(2,037 posts)
25. Those who are too comfortable with the status quo keep making the same mistakes.
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:37 PM
Dec 2020

You’re dead on. But sadly, some of our folks are too afraid of rocking the boat to embrace either the ideas whose time is long past due, and blame the slogans.

 

AmericanCanuck

(1,102 posts)
34. Baby step progress is not status quo.
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:51 PM
Dec 2020

Wild and radical changes only happen in socialist/communist and other authoritarian countries usually to the detriment of the average people.

 

caber09

(666 posts)
81. Stop with this BS...this is nonsense..
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 02:32 PM
Dec 2020

The status quo bs is what directly led to Trump...hows that status quo thing working out with all the reversals he has done...whats next you are going to tell us there is no difference between parties...its been everything but that so far. I will stick with President Obama and the majority of our party on this one...you can go with the path that leads to more Rs in charge and regression of everything that had been accomplished and will have to be re-done again because of this status quo/perfection/purity over progress stuff.

mtnsnake

(22,236 posts)
56. If Katie could bottle up her passion and give it to every Democratic congressperson out there
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 01:28 PM
Dec 2020

we would have two legs up on every future election we take part in.

radius777

(3,635 posts)
129. Porter is plenty inciendary, just she's a cherubic white woman,
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 10:13 PM
Dec 2020

thus not viewed as scary to White America who enjoys hating on the Squad for the typical tired-ass reasons.

ProfessorGAC

(65,593 posts)
104. Because She Remembers Who The Enemy Is?
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 04:48 PM
Dec 2020

She doesn't have to imagine who the bad guys are.
She knows exactly who they are, and uses her energy stomping on them.

Skraxx

(2,987 posts)
26. I Think I Would Take Political Advice from the Greatest Politician of Our Generation
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:37 PM
Dec 2020

If I were a smart politician, that is. Thank you President Obama. Your political chops are unquestionable. People should heed you're sage advice. But, alas.

GemDigger

(4,305 posts)
30. I am starting to wonder if they are republicans in disguise?
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:48 PM
Dec 2020

If all they do is attack the democrats... then they are the ones losing an audience.

BannonsLiver

(16,556 posts)
40. They're not Republicans
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:53 PM
Dec 2020

They live in D+30 districts. When you live in those districts it all seems like an easy fix.

GemDigger

(4,305 posts)
46. I know they aren't. People are stupid and to them "defund the police" means get rid of the PD in
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 01:06 PM
Dec 2020

its entirety because they have never explained to the masses what exactly they mean. "Defund the police" hurt us here big time where there are letters to the editors just about every damn day.




BannonsLiver

(16,556 posts)
49. Yep
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 01:09 PM
Dec 2020

Was used heavily in a successful effort to get rid of our first term Dem congresswoman. Yet we have one poster gaslighting their way through these threads saying it didn’t matter. If you’re explaining you’re losing.

Gothmog

(146,260 posts)
32. Obama Says 'Defund The Police' Alienates Voters, Drawing Sharp Rebuke From The Left
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:50 PM
Dec 2020

I trust President Obama on this issue




Former President Barack Obama drew criticism from progressive Democrats this week for suggesting that “snappy” slogans like “defund the police” are alienating voters and making it harder from a political standpoint to enact “changes you want done.”

In an interview with Peter Hamby, who hosts the Snapchat political show “Good Luck America,” Obama said “you [lose] a big audience the minute” a slogan like “defund the police” is used, making “it a lot less likely that you’re actually going to get the changes you want done.”

“Defund the police” refers to the reallocation or redirection of government funding from police departments to social services for minority communities. As Rashawn Ray of the Brookings Institution noted, defunding does not mean the abolishment of police departments but instead “highlights fiscal responsibility” and “advocates for a market-driven approach to taxpayer money.”....

Obama ― echoing other centrist Democrats who’ve similarly taken issue with “defund the police” and what they’ve decried as radical messaging ― told Hamby that Democrats could benefit from adopting softer rhetoric when talking about police reform.

“If you instead say, ‘Hey, you know what? Let’s reform the police department so that everybody’s being treated fairly. And not just in policing, but in sentencing, how can we divert young people from getting into crime?’” he said.

stopdiggin

(11,458 posts)
117. "and if you go carryin' pictures of Chairman Mao ..."
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 06:21 PM
Dec 2020

"ain't gonna' make it with anyone anyhow ..."
-- little rock n roll group from the UK --

KPN

(15,696 posts)
38. Ya know, if police are murdering Americans,
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 12:52 PM
Dec 2020

and reform efforts don’t seem to be fixing that problem, maybe they should be “defunded”.

Do you want to see real reform? Provide a meaningful incentive. Training and oversight reforms don’t seem to be making a huge dent.

LAS14

(13,801 posts)
44. I see the "they oughta wanna" syndrome here.
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 01:01 PM
Dec 2020

When there's a fact on the ground (people misinterpreting "Defund the Police&quot , the reaction that they ought not to misinterpret is irrelevant. They do. We have to deal with it.

Vinca

(50,353 posts)
55. The Squad needs to learn not to be so pig headed. You shouldn't continue to defend a term
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 01:26 PM
Dec 2020

that could never have been explained away. We know what they meant, but the phrase "defund the police" conjures up Grandma being burgled and no cops to come take the report and find her stuff. There's no catchy way to say redirect money to mental health and social services in addition to keeping police available to drag you out of the car you just crashed into a tree.

peggysue2

(10,903 posts)
60. The problem is right here
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 01:36 PM
Dec 2020
“Defund the police” refers to the reallocation or redirection of government funding from police departments to social services for minority communities.

But . . . what people hear in the words Defund the Police, what registers in the voters' minds is Eliminate the Police. That's not a winning message anywhere.

Bottom line? It's lousy, sloppy messaging. Doesn't matter what the originators' intended, the Defund the Police has been exploited by the Republicans in their own messaging wars and have used those three words as an effective club against Democratic candidates.

Guaranteed this will be used in the Georgia run-offs.

We can argue and bark back and forth on the validity of the message until the cows come home. The only thing that matters in an election is the number of votes racked up. Because without winning we get to change zip, zero, nada.

George II

(67,782 posts)
82. That was the message that was picked up by the Minneapolis City Council. Someone introduced....
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 02:32 PM
Dec 2020

....a bill to fully disband the police. They're now re-examining that, realizing it's the wrong thing to do.

peggysue2

(10,903 posts)
90. Ya think?
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 04:17 PM
Dec 2020
They're now re-examining that, realizing it's the wrong thing to do.

Talk about alienating voters!

We need to be smarter about our messaging because the Republicans will take every opportunity to twist and turn our words against us, something at which they've proven themselves adept and amazingly effective.

Defund the Police is a perfect example of what we should not be doing: offering the GOP a huge gift during an election cycle.
 

Jamesyu

(259 posts)
62. Defund the police sounded like we wanted complete anarchy in the streets
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 01:40 PM
Dec 2020

and the images of people breaking into businesses and lighting cars on fire didn't help the situation.

WA-03 Democrat

(3,061 posts)
67. Obama is right
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 01:59 PM
Dec 2020

Message matters. I don’t think defund the police explains why we lost some down ballot races-it’s part of the puzzle. I agree that BLM was the treated likewise in 2016 but is it a fair comparison? Black Lives Matter rings true and I think was a good marketing of an idea message. It gained over time. Equal Justice I think is better but defund the police sucks. Our society equates money with existing - no money no cops.

I wish the social media squad could let President Obama’s message just be and focus on the Republicans Real Time destruction of our nation. I would also like a Ferrari just for the record.

76. It is the worst slogan in modern political history
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 02:23 PM
Dec 2020

It was a total gift to Republicans. The fact that some on the far left are actually still defending it is mind boggling. I am glad President Obama made a stand on this like he has with free speech.

LAS14

(13,801 posts)
92. I'm happy to see that progressives on the ground in Georgia seem to understand Obama's point.
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 04:21 PM
Dec 2020

Sorry about the pay wall.

Neither Jon Ossoff nor the Rev. Raphael Warnock has endorsed the Green New Deal. But that hasn’t stopped the Sunrise Movement, the activist climate group that champions the sweeping climate change plan, from mobilizing in force for the two Georgia Democrats in their high-stakes runoff races for Senate seats.

The group is aiming to help register 10,000 to 20,000 Georgians who will turn 18 by Jan. 5, the day of the elections. It has people on the ground canvassing and dropping off campaign literature. And while its appeals mention the threat from climate change, it does not present the issue as a litmus test.

“Right now, we’re focused on the bigger picture,” said Shanté Wolfe, who is leading the Sunrise Movement’s work in Georgia. “Our effort is in favor of the greater good.”


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/01/us/politics/georgia-senate-election-democrats.html

George II

(67,782 posts)
94. A few more paragraphs, it's a very good article. Both Warnock and Ossoff know what wins in GA:
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 04:25 PM
Dec 2020
The furious efforts in Georgia by the Sunrise Movement and other progressive groups — on behalf of two candidates who do not share their most ambitious policy goals — reflect the urgency that is consuming the Democratic Party’s left flank. Two victories in Georgia would produce a 50-50 tie in the Senate, giving Democrats control of the chamber because Kamala Harris would cast tiebreaking votes as vice president.

Without Democratic control, progressive lawmakers, activists and their grass-roots supporters worry that they will not be able to achieve even a pared-down version of their policy wish list for the country.

But they also understand that for decades Georgia has been a Republican stronghold with a large number of conservative voters, and that their efforts there need to be modulated. President-elect Joseph R. Biden Jr. won the state, many Democrats point out, with a moderate agenda that tempered the rhetoric and policy goals of the left. Mr. Biden, Mr. Warnock and Mr. Ossoff do not support “Medicare for all,” another priority of the party’s left wing.

Gothmog

(146,260 posts)
110. Why 'Defund The Police' Attacks Were So Potent Against Democrats
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 05:05 PM
Dec 2020

I personally support reforms to the police. I worked hard and we got a good Democrat elected as District Attorney in my county two years ago and this cycle we got a good man elected as sheriff of my county. Our new DA has made a tremendous amount of difference in my county and I believe that the new Sheriff will also help. However, it is clear that we lost races that we should not have lost Defund the police was used very effectively by the GOP in down ballot races. A good number of races that Democrats should have won were lost due to this issue.





The GOP ran a ton of ads using this issue
Sure enough, Republicans saw an opportunity. Painting Democrats as supporters of “defunding” the police became the focus of campaign literature, TV and digital ads, and live televised debates. That forced Democratic candidates to divert resources that might otherwise be used discussing COVID-19 relief, health care or education to be used disavowing themselves from the slogan and otherwise defending themselves.

Out of 31 broadcast TV ads that Trump and other allied campaign groups used to attack Biden and other Democrats for being soft on law and order, 11 spots ― that aired a total of 77,647 times ― explicitly mentioned “defund the police,” according to an analysis Kantar Media/CMAG conducted for HuffPost. And out of 216 Republican broadcast TV ads in congressional races blasting Democrats, 157 spots that aired 103,000 times used the phrase.

I was disappointed to seen Susan Collins re-elected. It seems that Collins was able to use the "defund the police" issue very effectively
Sen. Susan Collins (R-Maine) and the GOP’s Senate campaign arm hit her Democratic opponent, Sara Gideon, in a TV ad for links to a “defund the police” billionaire. The basis for the ad was Gideon’s attendance at a fundraiser hosted by an environmental coalition that includes NextGen America. NextGen, funded by liberal billionaire Tom Steyer, supports defunding the police

JCMach1

(27,594 posts)
121. Unbelievable that we are arguing (the party is) over branding...
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 06:54 PM
Dec 2020

Defund the police killed us in places like Texas, full-stop.

betsuni

(25,911 posts)
122. They seem really really attached to certain slogans. As if the slogan was more important than the
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 07:00 PM
Dec 2020

actual thing. It's words.

I keep seeing people complaining about Democrats' messaging. Well, here's good advice from President Obama. "Defund" is a bad word in this slogan. Change it.

Cha

(298,354 posts)
126. "Clap back".. lol. President Obama is
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 07:40 PM
Dec 2020

right.

Allison Spanberger District 7 VA on the ground report. on the front lines..

This Democratic congresswoman just spoke some hard truth to her party

She went on to highlight two main reasons for Democrats " los[ing] members who shouldn't have lost":

1) The pervasiveness of the "defund the police" message

"The number one concern in things that people brought to me in my [district] that I barely re-won, was defunding the police. And I've heard from colleagues who have said 'Oh, it's the language of the streets. We should respect that.' We're in Congress. We are professionals. We are supposed to talk about things in the way where we mean what we're talking about. If we don't mean we should defund the police, we shouldn't say that."

2) The talk of socialism

Read more at the link..

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/06/politics/abigail-spanberger-house-democrats-2020-election/index.html



GoCubsGo

(32,118 posts)
142. Yep, and they're using that bullshit against Warnock and Ossoff in the GA run-offs.
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 03:47 PM
Dec 2020

They're also trying to tie both of them to AOC, as if she is something other than a neophyte congressperson. It's hard enough to win in a traditionally "red" state, where everything is rigged against your party, without having to waste precious campaign dollars on ads that attempt to fend off nonsense slogans. Every fucking commercial break down here is either an ad Ossoff or Warnock, or their surrogates having to convince voters that these gentlemen do not want to take money away from law enforcement, or another featuring all sorts of redneck sheriffs out there claiming these guys hate cops. It's ridiculous.

Cha

(298,354 posts)
144. Of course the maggots are using this
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 03:55 PM
Dec 2020

in Georgia.

President Obama is right.. the "clap backers" are wrong.

 

BGBD

(3,282 posts)
127. Everyone in this thread saying reform hasn't worked
Wed Dec 2, 2020, 08:04 PM
Dec 2020

Hasn't read up much on the history of police or really looked at where they stand now.

Reforms actually have worked and will continue to work as we move forward. Police are having to answer for things now, they get fired, go to trial, and serve time for things that would have been accepted 20 or 30 years ago.

George II

(67,782 posts)
156. You are 100% correct! It has been working and will still be working, and reform will continue....
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 07:30 PM
Dec 2020

....for quite a while - this will be ever evolving. I think some are upset because reform has been completed and 100% to their satisfaction.

In New York City, police reform along the lines of what people are looking for now in 2020 began, surprisingly, in the 1950s. It came about after a number of racially charged incidents.

The precursor of today's "Civilian Complaint Review Board" was established in 1953, and has been restructured several times since.

Blasphemer

(3,261 posts)
153. Obama is right. I can't believe this is even a debate.
Thu Dec 3, 2020, 07:21 PM
Dec 2020

Obama's opinion is not unique. The moment the phrase began to be used, MANY recognized that it was political kryptonite. If you want change, you need not only political will, but also political power. That power comes from popular support. All the calls for defunding the police has done is make it LESS likely there will be actual meaningful reform. How is that helpful?

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