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Sat Oct 6, 2012, 02:49 PM

Can we all agree to stand our ground after the next debate?

I expect that Obama will offer a few more thrills next debate. But our audience should not have to rely on that for us to keep our courage and our heads. We need to have Obama's back next time, period.

Folks should realize that the debate doesn't stop after Obama and Romney shake hands. It continues into the media. It goes to us.

Suppose the debate had continued for another two hours and Obama and Romney had stayed on stage. And suppose for that two hours Obama did nothing but admit that Romney dominated, won on style, and so forth. Suppose Obama admitted he had been listless and "languid" (NPR's version of listless). Well, then Obama would have lost the debate.

But Obama stayed cool and stuck to his facts for his ninety minutes. Our Progressive-leaning pundits and audience dropped the baton on minute ninety-one.

We weren't thrilled. We weren't inspired. But guess what? If your emotions choose your behavior for you, you lose. Our side's keenest observers seemed to miss the fact that Romney flip-flopped and snake-oiled. They missed Romney's beads of sweat and his teary eyes. They missed a man pretending to be someone he is not.

Obama didn't play the 47% card in his ninety minutes. He didn't play the tax returns card. Those were ok calls in my opinion. But our side in the post-debate debate? We missed the sweat and flip-flopping cards. We missed the substance card.

A lot of us—most disappointingly our media talking heads—folded a good hand and fed Obama to the wolves. We thought we were just being honest. Funny how emotions work.

Let's hope we start to get a poker face for this next debate. When will we learn Obama's not the only one in this fight? Once Obama is done with Romney next debate, let's remember it's our turn to play.

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Reply Can we all agree to stand our ground after the next debate? (Original post)
gulliver Oct 2012 OP
DemzRock Oct 2012 #1
Shae Oct 2012 #61
Glitterati Oct 2012 #2
gulliver Oct 2012 #3
Glitterati Oct 2012 #6
Vietnameravet Oct 2012 #12
Glitterati Oct 2012 #13
lunatica Oct 2012 #28
Glitterati Oct 2012 #29
lunatica Oct 2012 #32
Glitterati Oct 2012 #37
lunatica Oct 2012 #40
Glitterati Oct 2012 #42
xocet Oct 2012 #62
Glitterati Oct 2012 #75
Cary Oct 2012 #33
lunatica Oct 2012 #43
Cary Oct 2012 #82
lunatica Oct 2012 #83
plethoro Oct 2012 #59
MADem Oct 2012 #4
Glitterati Oct 2012 #9
MADem Oct 2012 #20
Glitterati Oct 2012 #23
grasswire Oct 2012 #5
Glitterati Oct 2012 #11
lonestarnot Oct 2012 #7
woo me with science Oct 2012 #8
DevonRex Oct 2012 #16
cali Oct 2012 #10
gulliver Oct 2012 #14
graham4anything Oct 2012 #24
tama Oct 2012 #58
graham4anything Oct 2012 #65
tama Oct 2012 #66
2pooped2pop Oct 2012 #67
Logical Oct 2012 #15
gulliver Oct 2012 #18
Logical Oct 2012 #21
robinlynne Oct 2012 #63
graham4anything Oct 2012 #31
Logical Oct 2012 #36
graham4anything Oct 2012 #48
BeyondGeography Oct 2012 #52
graham4anything Oct 2012 #53
fanfan0711 Oct 2012 #81
DevonRex Oct 2012 #17
etherealtruth Oct 2012 #19
gulliver Oct 2012 #30
etherealtruth Oct 2012 #44
gulliver Oct 2012 #50
CakeGrrl Oct 2012 #22
graham4anything Oct 2012 #41
politicasista Oct 2012 #70
DirkGently Oct 2012 #25
etherealtruth Oct 2012 #27
Glitterati Oct 2012 #35
gulliver Oct 2012 #39
DirkGently Oct 2012 #49
Blue Idaho Oct 2012 #45
lunatica Oct 2012 #26
Cary Oct 2012 #38
lunatica Oct 2012 #46
NJCher Oct 2012 #79
LiberalAndProud Oct 2012 #34
Blue Idaho Oct 2012 #47
Raine Oct 2012 #51
patrice Oct 2012 #54
awake Oct 2012 #55
former9thward Oct 2012 #56
sevenseas Oct 2012 #57
patrice Oct 2012 #60
The Old Creak Oct 2012 #64
politicasista Oct 2012 #69
The Old Creak Oct 2012 #74
politicasista Oct 2012 #77
Aerows Oct 2012 #68
regnaD kciN Oct 2012 #71
dkf Oct 2012 #72
jsmirman Oct 2012 #73
exboyfil Oct 2012 #76
Lifelong Protester Oct 2012 #78
handsofthedevil Oct 2012 #80
Le Taz Hot Oct 2012 #84
quinnox Oct 2012 #85
msanthrope Oct 2012 #86

Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 02:54 PM

1. Agreed wholeheartedly!

BTW, I don't have Current. Did anyone watch the debate via Current. Were they as crappy as MsNBC that night?

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Response to DemzRock (Reply #1)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 05:42 PM

61. I didn't watch Current for the debates, but . . .

turned to it afterward. Cenk and the gang were losing it much as the MSNBC people were.

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 02:56 PM

2. Disagree!

 

Are you Grover Norquist asking me to sign a pledge about a future event?

Seriously, how the hell did DU get so far off track?

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Response to Glitterati (Reply #2)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:08 PM

3. I kind of like DU and don't think it is "far off track"

You're entitled to your opinion, of course. DU has some of the Internet's best and most thoughtful political content. It puts FreeRepublic to complete shame, for example.

Not sure where you are getting the Grover Norquist stuff.

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Response to gulliver (Reply #3)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:13 PM

6. The Grover Norquist stuff is simple

 

You're asking DUers to sign a pledge about a future event. To disregard their opinion, regardless of what it is and become an Obama cheerleader.

Regardless of how the debate goes.

I FULLY expect Obama to recover and turn in an amazing debate. But, that doesn't change my opinion of a FUTURE event.

I don't understand why DU suddenly thinks someone offering an opinion that the debate was horrible is such a bad thing. It WAS horrible.

And, if it's horrible the next time, I expect to be able to voice my opinion about it. The same as I expect to be able to voice my opinion if he turns in the great performance I expect him to.

You're asking DUers to make a pledge just like Grover Norquist's No Tax Increase pledge.

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Response to Glitterati (Reply #6)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:27 PM

12. Good post, Glittarati

 

I agree with most of what you say but We may have to put on our best faces next time regardless of what happens..because it will be late in the game...hopefully that will not happen..but pretending all was well when everyone knows it was not, is not helpful

The Obama camp had to hear the criticism, and as a result Obama will be much more aggressive and on the attack next time and he will win it..




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Response to Vietnameravet (Reply #12)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:31 PM

13. Thanks!

 

Even the Obama team said it wasn't his best debate.

We can't pretend all is well. We have stand and fight for this election. And so does Obama.

It's time to put on the fighting gloves. All. Of. Us.

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Response to Glitterati (Reply #6)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:56 PM

28. Get a fucking grip

He's not asking anyone to sign a pledge. He's asking people to support Obama if they do.

Jesus!

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Response to lunatica (Reply #28)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:59 PM

29. LOL, you're telling ME to get a grip?

 

With that post?

ROFLMAO!


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Response to Glitterati (Reply #29)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:03 PM

32. I sure am

and if you didn't get it the first time here it is again: Get a fucking grip.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #32)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:06 PM

37. I have a very firm grip on sanity

 

based on your single post to me, I'd say yours is questionable.

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Response to Glitterati (Reply #37)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:09 PM

40. Says the person who jumps off cliffs with hair on fire

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Response to lunatica (Reply #40)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:11 PM

42. 'Fraid not.

 

But you keep hunting for trolls. One day, you might actually catch one! Wouldn't that be glorious?

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Response to Glitterati (Reply #42)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 05:44 PM

62. Wow...you are on hair-trigger. Lighten up and get a grip both. n/t

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Response to xocet (Reply #62)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 07:13 PM

75. Oh, you're just so silly.

 

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha!

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Response to lunatica (Reply #28)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:04 PM

33. God forbid they should work to get a Democrat elected.

You may as well be asking them to saw off their leg.

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Response to Cary (Reply #33)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:11 PM

43. Are you responding to me?

To my comment on supporting Obama?

If you are you aren't making any sense to me. Sorry.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #43)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 07:44 AM

82. I was agreeing with you.

The sarcasm wasn't aimed you.

Sorry.

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Response to Cary (Reply #82)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 08:04 AM

83. OK. Thanks for clarifying that

Peace.

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Response to Glitterati (Reply #6)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 05:18 PM

59. That was a great post........

 

A few on DU have expressed a fear that the debate will be viewed as a Romney absolute win because in the general public there are not enough folks who have the mental abilities to discern what actually happened. That's what I think too. I think there is another explanation for Obama's performance that hasn't been broached here. However, with only a relative few posts I am not the one to bring it up.

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:09 PM

4. We can't agree on anything.

Those concern trolls will pop up like mold after a heavy rain, sure as the sun rises in the east. And at the end of the day, they won't make a damn bit of difference.

Four more frigging years, and that's the name of that tune!

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Response to MADem (Reply #4)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:17 PM

9. Four more years

 

Obama will get four more years regardless of the debate performance, and regardless of DU's opinion about it.

There's no way in hell Obama loses this.

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Response to Glitterati (Reply #9)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:42 PM

20. That's one thing all of us, save the odd concern trolls, can agree upon~! nt

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Response to MADem (Reply #20)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:49 PM

23. WE just have to work harder

 

one step back, two steps forward. Put our heads down and fight like our lives depend on it. Because, for many, they do.

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:13 PM

5. excellent

Now if we could only ask the PROFESSIONAL "opinion leaders" to be mature, calm, and thoughtful. Lawrence and Al were that. Chris Hayes, too. The others simply lost their minds.

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Response to grasswire (Reply #5)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:25 PM

11. I only watched 10 minutes

 

of the post debate BS on MSNBC. But, during that 10 minutes, Rachael tried to inject some sanity into the Ed & Chris Freak Out. Did she not maintain that?

I had to turn it off - just couldn't stand the screeching.

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:14 PM

7. K & R!

 

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:15 PM

8. He needs to have our back, too.

We need clarity on Social Security.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #8)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:35 PM

16. Hahaha. Snort. Haha. WOLF!!!

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:23 PM

10. You actually think what we post here is going to change anything?

 

I'm sorry, but I'll analyze it how I see it, and I certainly won't be shut up by posts like yours which frankly I think are ludicrous.

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Response to cali (Reply #10)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:32 PM

14. I actually do think that.

One of the first things they said on CNN after the debate was that liberal Internet sources were negative on the debate. You're entitled to keep or change your opinion on anything of course. I'm just trying to point out something I consider valid. The liberal "analyses" that complained about Obama were not long on fact and reason. That's my opinion.

I'm not trying to shut anyone up or tell them how to think. I'm certainly not asking anyone to spin. I'm just saying people should take a deep breath or three after the debate is over. Then we'll see how it goes.

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Response to cali (Reply #10)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:52 PM

24. holier than thou

 

just like the holier than thou that hated LBJ so we got Nixon
just like the holier than thou that loved Ralph Nader so we got 43
just like the holier than thou that couldn't in 1980 put Carter and Teddy together, so the party fractured apart

just like the holier than thou that hated Howard Dean and the phony issue scream and lost 2004

just like the holier than thou that said celebrating a man's life who was assasssinated in a plane crash led directly to the senate turning red when Paul Wellstone died

just like the holier than thou Bill Bradley and other whiner losers like the asswipe Russ Feingold (who in his wonderful naive way made a finance law that directly led to corporate personhood) and both took the ball home and didn't run again, Russ becoming a lobbyist.

just like 100s of other holier than thou examples

Luckily barack Obama was reelected in 2012 and history will show though, that the holier than thou atttide will lead to Jeb Bush being 45 instead of Hillary in 2016 and 2020

Holier than thou.

loose lips sink ships
and 2016 is going to be sunk instead of being the forever nail in the coffin of the republicanlibertarianteaparty

holier than thou, like Ralph Nader was.


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Response to graham4anything (Reply #24)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 05:13 PM

58. Easy to blame "holier than thou"

 

while getting fucked worse and worse by WS sockpuppets of both parties.

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Response to tama (Reply #58)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 05:54 PM

65. there is that ralph nader line again.

 

no the democrats and republicans are not the same

once we are in 2013, the infighting on issues can begin for (but only for a short period)LOL

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #65)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 06:12 PM

66. There are differences

 

but on issues people are more left and anti-authoritarian than both parties. Issues are not about "infighting" except if the issue is divide and conquer. Real issues have very little to do with partisan politics and elections, which are mostly just diversion.

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Response to cali (Reply #10)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 06:17 PM

67. they want us to all clap and shout "good answer, good answer"

 

Like families do on Family Feud when they know someone in the family gave a shitty answer. They always look stupid to me. Acting like someones answer was something it was not.

But you know. Here, we don't want the repiglicans who want to destroy the MFN world, to think badly of us.

Sheesh, eh?

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:34 PM

15. LOL, this really makes me laugh......

 

We are supposed to pretend we had a good week?

This place is not reality. It is a biased political board.

McCain got his ass kicked by Obama 2008. Should the GOP boards act like McCain won?

Reality is an eye opener sometimes. Maybe you should live by reality.








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Response to Logical (Reply #15)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:41 PM

18. "Reality is an eye opener sometimes"

Ok, I'll have to say that's not bad. Not sure it actually supports your point in this case tho.

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Response to gulliver (Reply #18)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:46 PM

21. Polls are tighter. No doubt about it. And the press has been good for Romney for the first time....

 

in weeks.

So yes, it is reality.

But one good debate for Obama can change it all back.

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Response to Logical (Reply #21)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 05:47 PM

63. maybe.

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Response to Logical (Reply #15)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:03 PM

31. Obama kicked Mittens ass. Though it takes smart people looking 9 steps ahead to see it

 

red meat gladiators only see the macho macho man bravado

A real man walks away from a fight

Obama won bigtime as NO Obama voter changed side

and I for one don't want the idiots who never were fans in the first place
didn't need them in 2008 and don't need them now.

And to quote Mitt,(and if I had his money) I would bet in an instance(if it were legal, but it isn't) $10,000 and even give odds of 100 to 1,and bet that Obama will win. (but it's not legal, so this is not a contract or bid.
It is just a statement of fact.

and if you remember the game show a few years back with Grouch Marx "You bet your life"

the word of the day the duck comes down with is 7.8.

7.8
7.8
7.8
7.8
7.8
7.8
7.8
7.8
7.8
7.8

those that hate America and Obama hate that America isn't in the river like it was before inauguration day 2008.

one month from today we shall never hear of Herr Mittens again. (though he will get a job paying 100million or more a year, he will never again be political, Thank God and Obama for that.

Hey mittens-

[img][/img]

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #31)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:06 PM

36. Hmmm, sounds more like "3D Chess" stuff to me again. Not a fan of it.

 

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Response to Logical (Reply #36)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:20 PM

48. read Paul Waldman's "Fraud" about the Bush family

 

and be happy the Bush's always looked 7 steps ahead, and Obama 9 steps ahead.

Do you really think Jeb will let Mitt and Ryan win?
Everything is being done for Jeb in 2016

and tearing the democrats apart(when it is basically impossible for Mittens to win,
will only help the Jebster in 2016.

smart political minds know that.(and devious people can be smart even if we don't like their politics on the other side. People falling for the crap that Bush43 was a moron who was so stupid he couldn't lie, because he was a man of integrity, but just a bit on the stupid side...what a crock, yet everyone fell for it.

Again, read that book. it might enlighten anyone who hasn't read it.

and don't you realize, this is Obama's revenge on the corrupt court of 2000, the revenge against Bush and Cheney and Nader when the court said f--k you Al Gore, the clock has run out, you can't do it.
The clock has run out on Mittens.
It's over.

(and in the past, Walter Mondale and Mike Dukakis thought they felt a wave coming.
So did Goldwater/Miller.So did mcGovern. The wave was them drowning the party in a big loss.That is what is happening to Mittens. He lost.

Like the Knights who say Ni. It just takes a while for them to notice it's over.

Obama plays by Obama's rules.NOT by the media that attempted to stop him in 2008 btw and failed. The media was not his friends at all, til they realized he was going to win.

btw- whatever happened to keith Oberman and Frank Rich? Can you tell me where they've gone?

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #48)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:40 PM

52. What a shitload of tinfoil

Enlightening. Yeah.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #52)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:48 PM

53. I am not into conspiracy theories. I am into fact. Fact=Obama won

 

Fact=professional plants are always inserted into any site that people mingle in.
From old fashioned town squares to the internet sites.

To disrupt and divert.
To cause fights and all.

and did you read the book? If not, how possibly can one comment on a book without reading it.(or kindle or nook it if one doesn't know how to get a physical copy of a book anymore.)

of course people not saying anything when Ralph Nader lied like Kerry is now, directly led to guess who winning.(ding ding ding)

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Response to Logical (Reply #15)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 09:22 PM

81. Exaggeration

A bad WEEK? This is the kind of exaggeration I don't get. The debate was on Weds night, Friday we had good (relative) job numbers, today we had good fundraising numbers, where is this bad WEEK coming from?

Obama's been running a great campaign, he had a lousy day and it seems as if a lot of people set their hair on fire and want to jump ship. One good debate and look how quickly Republicans got over Romney's bad MONTH. One lousy debate and we've suddenly forgotten the previous good month. I find that stunning.

By the way, McCain never got his "ass kicked" by Obama in 2008. Maybe because our economy was in free fall but people actually cared about ideas, whereas this time around it seems not to matter that you lied but rather that you did it with conviction. The media was ALWAYS complaining about what a weak debater Obama was in 08, I don't know how anyone could've forgotten that.

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:37 PM

17. I've got his back. Unlike some here. Nt

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:41 PM

19. The Emperors New Clothes

I completely support the President. Overall I think he has done a fine job.

Obama's debate performance was lackluster ... I don't think it was a "make or break" event. I didn't start wringing my hands and I still support the president.

To suggest that I look at an event and state that it was something it is not is ridiculous. I come to DU for insightful opinion, information and sometimes comisseration .... I do not come to read the DU version of the Stepford Wives

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #19)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:00 PM

30. Which Emperor was naked this time tho?

The Obama emperor was actually pretty well clothed, as always. Obama had the substance. He was natural, calm, and intelligent. Many of the "flaws" some perceived in his performance are already proving to be good calls.

Emperor Romney was naked as a jaybird. He always has been. He was sweating, teary-eyed, and two-faced.

I'm definitely not asking for people not to call things as they see them. I am saying that things were a lot better than they saw them. And I'm saying that we should go into the next debate with self-doubt as Plan Z.


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Response to gulliver (Reply #30)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:14 PM

44. Clearly, you perceived Obama's performance as strong and powerful

I found his debate performance disappointing. I don't attribute a lot of weight to it but, I am not going to pretend he gave a powerful and moving performance ... it was disappointing. He is capable of much better.

Overall, I think his performance is viewed as lackluster. I don't support Obama any less ... I sure as hell don't support Romney more (I remain as disgusted by Romney as a candidate and a person as I ever was) ... I am not going to pretend that Obama delivered a powerful and rousing performance ... he did not.

My Emperor comments have less to do with Obama (I have no doubt he understands his own performance) than those that want to shout ... Obama won the debate ... he was rousing and powerful (flying in the face of the perception of most that watched)

I view the debate as a blip ... I do think Obama has done a great job post debate ... but I am not going to pretend the debate was something that it wasn't.

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #44)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:35 PM

50. "He is capable of much better."

I agree with you on that. I just think what happened afterward brought on the big picture defeat "he" suffered. I thought Obama's performance was solid, thoughtful, truthful, genuine, etc. I thought Romney's performance was sweaty, negative, and false. So I think Obama's performance was clearly defensible in a world where we want character and integrity to count.

I wasn't disappointed in Obama. I was disappointed in us. We are engines on this plane, not passengers. We missed a good chance to stand our ground.

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:46 PM

22. I have his back.

I would never enable the GOP/MSM talking points: "See, his own party thinks he sucks!"

Democrats excel at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

I'd love to hear someone explained what Romney "won". Funny how so many overlook blatant lying and buy into the MSM spin on the optics.

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #22)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:09 PM

41. I personally think some here are not who they proport to be

 

and I use my past experience on some other defunct boards to know people are put there for just times like this

because Lee Atwater knew and Karl Rove knows that any fracture helps their side.

However, Obama has NOT lost one of his voters, which were plenty in 2008 and will vote this year

(not to mention already voted in dozens of states.)

and then some are debbie downers who revel in depression

and don't remember that they have done this routine every single time

Obama won the debate.
A true Obama fan knows that and is smart enough to see it.

I am ashamed of what I have seen here since the debate.

and i do suspect there are plants in our midst.

(professional infiltrators have been around since day one everywhere, knowing this from NYC and the village in the late 60s/ early 70s (and of course decades earlier too.)

somewhere in hell, Lee Atwater is laughing heartedly at this shameful attitude.

IMHO of course.
(I am sure we will have someone come along and defend Lee Atwater
(for those that don't remember him, google him.)

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #22)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 06:23 PM

70. Bingo n/t

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:54 PM

25. No, because that's nonsense. No one "fed him to the wolves." The debate did not go well.

From where does this logic come that everyone on Earth who would like for ____ politician or party to win an election is honor-bound to participate in spinning the facts?

That's not "having someone's back." That's empty-headed propagandizing. To the extent anyone had thrown up their hands and declared Obama was no longer a fit candidate, arguments like these could make a sliver of sense, but I didn't see that happening.

On the contrary, pretending that Obama standing there with his head down, absorbing gob-smacking untruths with no comment and allowing a doddering moderator to meander about randomly shutting him down was a successful debate strategy would be the opposite of support.

We aren't children. The world isn't children. We do no create reality by pretending that facts that do not conform to our wishes do not exist. That's what rightwingers do. Polls not in your favor? Call them biased. Job numbers favor the other side? Call it a conspiracy.

That's not us.

Those people have no credibility, because part of the entrance exam into the American rightwing and the Republican Party right now is idiocy. We're not able to have a conversation with those people. We're having a conversation with people who think about things and judge the truth as it appears before them.

No one missed that Obama had his facts straight in a way that Romney never does. They objected to him staring at his shoes instead of insisting on the truth. EVERYONE wanted to see that, including a substantial fraction of conservatives and Republicans who don't trust or like Romney. Everyone was looking to Obama to gently grab this smirking Republican idiot by his shiny lapels and explain to him that his zillion-dollar fortune and his soap star haircut and his incredibly vague references to a "plan" that clearly consists of nothing but further diverting our dwindling resources to himself and his yacht club buddies, do not qualify him to lead.

It was unfortunate. It would have been more unfortunate if Democrats had shown themselves to be as divorced from reality as Romney and his party. Because no matter how bad it gets and how thick the b.s. is flying, in the back of their minds, people look to us to have our Sanity Helmets firmly in place.

Nothing is more foolish or more destructive than the notion that we need to rip those Sanity Helmets off and adopt the blinkered partisan idiocy of the Republicans by telling everyone we won a debate even though we didn't, because we're still right on the issues.

We're not like them. We don't need to be like them. We don't think loyalty is blind approval or that our message is so important that we need to dissemble and paper over the truth whenever it's inconvenient to our cause.

The debate went badly. We still support our candidate. We hope and expect that he will represent our cause and himself better the next time around.

But either way, we will tell the truth.





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Response to DirkGently (Reply #25)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:56 PM

27. This would be an excellent OP

Well reasoned and well written. Thank you!

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #25)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:05 PM

35. Wow! An excellent post.

 

If ONLY I could say it so well!

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #25)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:08 PM

39. Emotions play tricks with the truth usually.

In no way am I arguing for our side being inauthentic. In fact, the point of my post is that our side had authentic grounds to stand on and we didn't.

The implications of that do have an emotional impact unfortunately. The idea that "Obama lost the debate, not me" is pleasant, but that doesn't make it true.

Our secondary players and fans did a lot worse than Obama. That's all I am saying. And I'm saying it is the truth, not something we should force ourselves to pretend.

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Response to gulliver (Reply #39)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:24 PM

49. I agree there was "substance" point to make & think we made it.


Even the pundits whose heads were exploding (Matthews, Shultz) about how things went made that point well. And I think after the smoke cleared, people understood that Romney dominated the conversation more than won the argument.

And to a degree, I think that view is taking hold in the aftermath. But there's no harm in acknowledging our candidate didn't represent his points in the way this version of a "debate" requires. If anything, acknowledging that Romney managed to look as good as Romney is ever likely to look, and that Obama had trouble pushing back effectively, is more credible than fighting that conclusion

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #25)


Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:54 PM

26. I've had his back all along

I don't believe in trashing people who I believe in. Never have. My admiration for the President is never curtailed. Perhaps it's because every moment is never an end in itself. If he has an off day I never throw him under the bus or throw a fit because he 'disappointed' me who could never do a hundredth of the job he's doing. Over the last 4 years many here on DU have trashed him viciously only to find out they were wrong to believe falsehoods about him.

I'm also somewhat disappointed in DUers who find it so easy to trash Jim Lehrer. I believe he did the absolute best he could. I dare anyone to stand up to a bullying asshole who yells over you at every turn or just ignores you. Jim Lehrer is a thoughtful and decent man who has given us the truthful news for a lifetime. I hate that people are trashing him. The man deserves respect, even if he wasn't able to control Romney.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #26)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:06 PM

38. Totally agree.

There should be some backlash against Rmoney for his shameless, gutless attack on Jim Lehrer. The man agreed to act as a moderator. Rmoney agreed to allow him to moderate and then Rmoney walks all over him?

That's a demonstration of Rmoney's integrity?

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Response to Cary (Reply #38)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:15 PM

46. Well if you mean lack of integrity or quality of integrity

then I guess we saw it for what it is. Although it hasn't been the first time he's shown just what kind of integrity he has. It's self-serving integrity for sure. He never deviates from that.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #26)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 07:52 PM

79. the only thing willard didn't do is wag his wienie

I dare anyone to stand up to a bullying asshole who yells over you at every turn or just ignores you.

Romney's behavior was so unacceptable, so out of the norm, so unprofessional, so dishonest, and so "out there" that any normal person would be taken aback, to put it mildly. And to add a particularly complex element to it, this took place on the national stage. One dare not even sigh or it will be a national issue.

Years later, people are still talking about Al Gore's sigh.

So Obama does what a thinking person would do in such a situation--he tries figure out what the hell this nutcase is doing. Days later we still don't have a handle on what the nutcase was doing yet we expect Obama to have had a grip on it immediately.

Oh, and to have acted appropriately.


Cher

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:05 PM

34. What, and miss the next righteous rant from WilliamPitt?

I'm not in favor. I laugh at us because we read every nuance and listen to every twist of phrase and expect that the same things that move us will also move the undecided voter. What happens on DU won't likely affect and undecided vote as much as a micrometer. So we amuse ourselves with ourselves. Voters will vote and I believe Obama will win because people don't trust Romney. It's pretty simple, unless you live on DU and cable tv.

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:17 PM

47. I do not belong to an organized political party

I am a Democrat.

Will Rogers.

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:38 PM

51. ABSOLUTELY agree. I was so sorry that I even read DU as the debate was progressing

what went on here was as bad as what went on on MSNBC ... geesh what a meltdown.

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 04:57 PM

54. As the next one is town-hall format, I expect less opportunity for clash, so it is likely that

we'll see a replay here of last week's reaction.

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 05:06 PM

55. Thank you it is the spin we need to win

As I said before the last debate it will not be who wins the debate it will be who wins the spin

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 05:10 PM

56. DU is not the media and does not control it.

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 05:13 PM

57. We have to be honest even if it hurts

We have Obama's back- we have donated until it hurts- and then Obama goes out there and lets Romney take control of him and of Lehrer.

That is the simple truth- no spin.

Romney shoved a pie up Obama's ass.

Obama need to show as Commander in Chief that he is in control.

round two- come out fighting, Barack.

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Response to sevenseas (Reply #57)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 05:35 PM

60. Honesty would include an effort to understand where one and one's cohoert stands in the

full spectrum of different perspectives on the question, that is, where one is located in that spectrum plus some estimation of the probability, as valid as possible under the circumstances, of about how many others, in this case out of 67 million people, occupy a position the same as or similar to one's own.

Yes, I/you/we are entitled to what we think of things, but honesty about that includes the fact that it's not THE ONLY truth out there and, if we're entitled to ours, so are others, so a more complete truth would be to recognize that fact.

The descriptive statistics that are the foundation of what is referred to as empirical rationalism, a.k.a. knowledge, predict that, with a sample size that big, 67 million, the out-liers, the extreme attitudes, positive or negative, are the definite minority out of the total, with by far the largest portion of the total number of opinions being distributed around 50:50.

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 05:51 PM

64. Obama blew it

He knows it and we know it. Rasmittens aside, he still has the lead. There is a 5 year high for the stock market and 7.8 and two more debates. If anyone thought this was going to be easy, they haven't been paying attention.

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Response to The Old Creak (Reply #64)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 06:21 PM

69. IMO, he didn't

He was cool, calm and respectful. His opponent was hoarse, rude and disrespectful. He didn't deserve the anti-ABM vitriol from the media.

We know who the real adult in the room was. He will still be there in the next two debates.

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Response to politicasista (Reply #69)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 06:46 PM

74. At this point, it's about the game

Why are the polls doing what they are? He's much better than that, and I fully expect to see it in a couple of weeks.

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Response to The Old Creak (Reply #74)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 07:21 PM

77. He will be fine n/t

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 06:17 PM

68. Some of us expect

 

to be holding our ground until November 7th and beyond when President Obama is still POTUS.

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 06:28 PM

71. Send this memo to MSNBC, Current, etc., etc...

I'm convinced that the panic on the left contributed to and reinforced the "Obama got destroyed" meme that spread after the debate.

I mean, look at how the debate was presented in the media just after it ended (Fox, of all people, headlined "No Knockout Punch, But Plenty Of Jabs" to how it was being reported after a day of being run through the media echo chamber. And, if Romney had wet his pants at the debate, would Fox have been reporting "we're doooooooomed"...? No, they'd be spinning that their candidate had won. I'm convinced that, when progressives failed to stand up for Obama, that sent a message to the rest of the media: "it's O.K...we agree it was a disaster for us."

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 06:29 PM

72. And you want a repeat of that performance? Or a threepeat?

 

At least now he has gotten the message he needs to do better.

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 06:43 PM

73. You're kidding yourself, and the Dems are not (LETTERS FROM THE PARTY)

Here's what Patty Murray wrote:

Since last night’s debate, Romney is collecting money from his millionaire donors hand over fist.

The scary part? This race could turn around on President Obama in the next 24 hours. Polls now show Romney is within one point in Florida (47-46) and two in Virginia (48-46).

The only way to prevent a Republican turnaround is with a massive display of grassroots donations. Can you give $25 immediately? We have just 24 hours, and need to bring in 10,000 more donations, or we’ll lose President Obama and a Democratic Senate.

Don’t let 90 minutes change the course of this election. Stop Mitt’s momentum immediately—24 hours left >> http://dscc.org/stop-mitt

Thank you,
Patty


I'll have another post about just how offensive this letter is to someone who has been giving real money that actually means something to me - being asked to combat the millionaires and billionaires because our President couldn't predict something as self-evident as the morning rise of the sun (of course Romney was going to make up his positions - his prior positions, stated plainly to that big an audience would have been fatal - I knew this long before the actual debate) - what an insanely frustrating letter.

Here was Move On's letter (not the party, but really, it's the party):

That was infuriating.

During last night's presidential debate, Mitt Romney smirked his way through dozens of mischaracterizations, distortions, and outright lies. The moderator, Jim Lehrer, never cut him off. And now the mainstream media is saying that Mitt won the debate.

We can't let Romney "win" the debate on a boatload of lies.

He lied about his tax plan, his deficit plan, and Medicare. He lied about what "Obamacare" would do. He lied, baldly and convincingly, about Obama's entire presidency.1

We need to move quickly to set the record straight. Our online team worked overnight preparing a media blitz—including online ads targeted at swing-state voters—correcting the worst lies in an easy-to-share format.

Chip in $10 to get the truth out—countering Mitt's lies.

If we don't fight back now with the truth, some of those lies will stick, and Romney could pull ahead.


Second bolding is mine. Romney could pull ahead. That's what they're worried about. Why the fuck is that even on the table? You know why and they know why and we know why, and it isn't because people on DU were pissed that night. It's because Obama's performance flat out sucked and was inadequate.

Stop blowing smoke up our asses. It's tiresome, and for my part, it keeps pulling me back in to being pissed off all over - I'm ready to move on, but not if I'm discussing things with people who can't grasp reality.

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 07:18 PM

76. I reserve my right to criticize either candidate

on their performance. I flowed the entire first debate, and I saw Obama miss several opportunities and fail to address attacks on important policies (such as green energy). He did not do a good job.

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 07:49 PM

78. I agree, and I was one of the ones letting it get to me.

I knew cooler heads would prevail, but I wanted to see that smarmy smirkasauris smacked down. I know the President did what he SHOULD have done-stick to the facts and not get ruffled.


But a couple of smack-downs would make me feel better!!

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 08:33 PM

80. Sick of it.

I'm sick of the lies and nasty BS from the GOP side.

It's time for the Dems backbone to shine through and fight fire with fire. Enough of this BS.

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 08:18 AM

84. The Creator Gave Me A Perfectly Good Brain . . .

and a big mouth. I do believe she meant for me to use both.

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 08:45 AM

85. the truth should always trump political allegiances

 

Some of the previous replies already said it a lot better than I could.

I like to be part of the reality based community. Sure, we could all put on Obama rose colored glasses and see nothing but rainbows and fluffy clouds in an always happy land where perfection is a daily occurance for our divine hero, but that isn't reality.

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Response to gulliver (Original post)

Sun Oct 7, 2012, 08:52 AM

86. Some of us need rubber sheeting to get through these things, And some of us keep our heads and

 

mobilize.

There's a reason why Big Bird is the most talked-about thing Mr. Romney said--it's because thousands of Democrats from across the country kept their heads and exploded social networking sites 'til the media had to notice. And now it is a meme of epic, and I mean, epic, proportions.

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