Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
25 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
BREAKING: MSNBC tv - Trump allies collecting 10s of thousands for pardons (Original Post) PA_jen Jan 2021 OP
Can federal prosecutors claim that money like assets from drug kingpins? no_hypocrisy Jan 2021 #1
Perhaps the Domestic Emoluments Clause of the Constitution. TheBlackAdder Jan 2021 #25
I think the scotus is going to be forced to put guardrails on the pardon power. bullimiami Jan 2021 #2
Separate branch. Scotus can't. Demsrule86 Jan 2021 #11
they can and will rule on the constitutionality of pardons when they are challenged. bullimiami Jan 2021 #15
I don't want to spend all this time on Trump...we have bigger fish to fry. I think challenging Demsrule86 Jan 2021 #23
The SCOTUS is exactly where abuse of the pardon power would be decided Silent3 Jan 2021 #17
First of all they can't change the constitution. They can rule on it but that is it. Demsrule86 Jan 2021 #19
I wouldn't be expecting a constitutional change Silent3 Jan 2021 #24
I would be surprised if SCOTUS upheld a self pardon as this make the president above the law. Demsrule86 Jan 2021 #22
No way to do it! Nt USALiberal Jan 2021 #14
again. i believe this is wrong. scotus rules constantly on interpreting the constitution. bullimiami Jan 2021 #16
The constitution is pretty clear...The president has almost unlimited power to pardon. Scotus Demsrule86 Jan 2021 #20
If they pulled the plug on him today tavernier Jan 2021 #3
There's every chance some of the pardons will benefit Senators ! OnDoutside Jan 2021 #7
Sure...if he was out he couldn't pardon...but it won't happen. Demsrule86 Jan 2021 #21
So, they are making a wish list? left-of-center2012 Jan 2021 #4
I didn't either, so here: frazzled Jan 2021 #6
Of course John Dowd surfaces again. dawg day Jan 2021 #13
Hey now, it's a shopping list for state prosecuters! n/t Tom Rinaldo Jan 2021 #5
I'm sure there will be a number of pardons released Wednesday morning Buckeyeblue Jan 2021 #8
I'm waiting for the TV ads mercuryblues Jan 2021 #9
Here: Rhiannon12866 Jan 2021 #10
The unbridled corruption and evil of everything Trump continues. nt Roisin Ni Fiachra Jan 2021 #12
How can pardons be valid choie Jan 2021 #18

TheBlackAdder

(28,208 posts)
25. Perhaps the Domestic Emoluments Clause of the Constitution.
Sun Jan 17, 2021, 05:39 PM
Jan 2021

.

"The President shall, at stated Times, receive for his Services, a Compensation, which shall neither be increased nor diminished during the Period for which he shall have been elected, and he shall not receive within that Period any other Emolument from the United States, or any of them.”


The meaning of the word “emolument” is contested in litigation challenging Trump’s alleged violations of both the foreign and the domestic clause. But most dictionaries from the era of the US’s founding define the word broadly. John Mikhail, a Georgetown law professor, looked at 40 different dictionaries published between 1604 and 1804 to try to determine how the word was understood at the time of the Constitution’s framing. He found that 37 of those 40 dictionaries give it a meaning that “would encompass sort of the profits of ordinary market transactions.”

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/10/22/20925403/emoluments-clause-trump-g7-resort-impeachment-businesses



Let's see how a Right Wing site describes this:

Compensation
Article II, Section 1, Clause 7

The President shall, at stated Times, receive for his Services, a Compensation, which shall neither be increased nor diminished during the Period for which he shall have been elected, and he shall not receive within that Period any other Emolument from the United States, or any of them.

This clause accomplishes two things: it establishes that the president is to receive a “compensation” that is unalterable during the period “for which he shall have been elected,” and it prohibits him within that period from receiving “any other emolument” from either the federal government or the states.

The proposition that the president was to receive a fixed compensation for his service in office seems to have been derived from the Massachusetts constitution of 1780, which served as a model for the Framers in other respects as well. The Constitutional Convention hardly debated the issue, except to reject, politely but decisively, the elderly Benjamin Franklin’s proposal that the president should receive no monetary compensation. Perhaps the Framers feared that if Franklin’s proposal were accepted, only persons of great wealth would accept presidential office.

As Alexander Hamilton explained in The Federalist No. 73, the primary purpose of requiring that the president’s compensation be fixed in advance of his service was to fortify the independence of the presidency, and thus to reinforce the larger constitutional design of separation of powers. “The legislature, with a discretionary power over the salary and emoluments of the Chief Magistrate, could render him as obsequious to their will as they might think proper to make him. They might in most cases either reduce him by famine, or tempt him by largesses, to surrender at discretion his judgment to their inclinations.” For similar separation of powers reasons, Article III, Section 1, provides that federal judges “shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services, a Compensation,” although that provision only forbids Congress from diminishing the judges’ compensation, not from increasing it. The distinction, as Hamilton noted in The Federalist No. 79, “probably arose from the difference in the duration of the respective offices.”
.
.
The meaning of the Compensation Clause also arose in the context of President Richard M. Nixon’s papers. As authorized by the Presidential Recordings and Materials Preservation Act of 1974, the government had taken or seized President Nixon’s papers after he had left office. President Nixon (succeeded by his estate) sued for compensation for the taking of what he alleged to be his property under the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment. The government argued that the Compensation Clause precluded payment of compensation on the theory that the presidential materials were the product of President Nixon’s exercise of powers conferred on him by the United States, and that therefore he could not sell them for his personal profit, even after his presidency, without impermissibly receiving an “Emolument” over and above the fixed compensation to which he was entitled. The district court rejected the government’s argument, relying in part on a prior appellate determination that President Nixon was the owner of the materials in question. It found that President Nixon’s entitlement to just compensation had vested when the government took his property (i.e., after he had left office), and therefore that “the plain language of the Emoluments Clause would not be violated because Mr. Nixon would receive compensation subsequent to the expiration of his term of office.” The government argued that such a finding necessarily implied that a sitting president could sell his papers for profit during his tenure of office—to which the court demurred that “those are not the facts in this case.” The court also found, however, that the papers “were not transferred to [President Nixon] by the government as compensation for his service in office,” perhaps implying that a president could indeed sell his papers during his term. Griffin v. United States (1995). Under the Presidential Records Act of 1978, however, presidents no longer have title to their papers, 44 U.S.C. § 2202, and so cannot sell them, thus obviating the issue of whether such sales would be emoluments.

https://www.heritage.org/constitution/#!/articles/2/essays/84/compensation



Nixon was trying to profit from his papers after he left office. He probably would not have been able to do so in office.

It kind of looks like it's illegal: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/doj-investigating-potential-white-house-bribery-pardon-scheme-n1249609

.

bullimiami

(13,099 posts)
15. they can and will rule on the constitutionality of pardons when they are challenged.
Sun Jan 17, 2021, 10:13 AM
Jan 2021

watch glen kirschner discuss why he believes some pardons could be illegal and how they could and should be challenged.

he knows a lot more about it than any of us.

Demsrule86

(68,586 posts)
23. I don't want to spend all this time on Trump...we have bigger fish to fry. I think challenging
Sun Jan 17, 2021, 02:55 PM
Jan 2021

pardons is a losing proposition.

Silent3

(15,221 posts)
17. The SCOTUS is exactly where abuse of the pardon power would be decided
Sun Jan 17, 2021, 10:48 AM
Jan 2021

It would be within the power of the Supreme Court to decide the limits of the pardon power. The way you bring this issue to the court is to go ahead and prosecute someone, ignoring any pardons, let the defense argue that the pardons must apply, and fight this out until the case reaches the SCOTUS. The SCOTUS could then interpret the meaning and intent of the pardon power.

On the minus side, apparently the framers of the Constitution had discussed explicit limits on the pardon power, or not having pardon power at all, and ultimately decided on the very broad, open-ended language we have that has no explicit limits on the power.

But there were implicit limits, because we know the framers never intended the President to be above the law, or to be able to act like a king, and if a President can pardon himself, or pardon others for corrupt purposes that serve his own power, that intention would be nullified.

Demsrule86

(68,586 posts)
19. First of all they can't change the constitution. They can rule on it but that is it.
Sun Jan 17, 2021, 02:50 PM
Jan 2021

They have no power over the executive branch. You would need a constitutional amendment.

Silent3

(15,221 posts)
24. I wouldn't be expecting a constitutional change
Sun Jan 17, 2021, 05:23 PM
Jan 2021

Just a rule on the intent of the pardon power, and I don't think it's unreasonable, no matter how terse the wording in the Constitution about the pardon power, it's just not reasonable to assume anyone wanted the pardon power to be so badly abused by a President so as to create a loophole granting king-like power and putting a President above the law.

Demsrule86

(68,586 posts)
22. I would be surprised if SCOTUS upheld a self pardon as this make the president above the law.
Sun Jan 17, 2021, 02:54 PM
Jan 2021

I don't think any court even this right wing court would do this...hope not anyway.

Demsrule86

(68,586 posts)
20. The constitution is pretty clear...The president has almost unlimited power to pardon. Scotus
Sun Jan 17, 2021, 02:51 PM
Jan 2021

can't change that.

tavernier

(12,392 posts)
3. If they pulled the plug on him today
Sun Jan 17, 2021, 08:29 AM
Jan 2021

via senate, would he still have pardon power?

*The senate could meet today if Mitch called for it... guaranteed they would meet if a SCOTUS justice died and they wanted to replace them before Wednesday.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
6. I didn't either, so here:
Sun Jan 17, 2021, 08:50 AM
Jan 2021
As President Trump prepares to leave office in days, a lucrative market for pardons is coming to a head, with some of his allies collecting fees from wealthy felons or their associates to push the White House for clemency, according to documents and interviews with more than three dozen lobbyists and lawyers.

... One lobbyist, Brett Tolman, a former federal prosecutor who has been advising the White House on pardons and commutations, has monetized his clemency work, collecting tens of thousands of dollars, and possibly more, in recent weeks to lobby the White House for clemency for the son of a former Arkansas senator; the founder of the notorious online drug marketplace Silk Road; and a Manhattan socialite who pleaded guilty in a fraud scheme.

Mr. Trump’s former personal lawyer John M. Dowd has marketed himself to convicted felons as someone who could secure pardons because of his close relationship with the president, accepting tens of thousands of dollars from a wealthy felon and advising him and other potential clients to leverage Mr. Trump’s grievances about the justice system.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/17/us/politics/trump-pardons.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

Buckeyeblue

(5,499 posts)
8. I'm sure there will be a number of pardons released Wednesday morning
Sun Jan 17, 2021, 09:28 AM
Jan 2021

And who knows what else he'll do. Other than launch the nukes--which I don't think would be an order that anyone would follow--I can't think of anything he could really do that Biden couldn't quickly undo. I honestly think he has been neutered.

I think Republicans are in a dither because 1. He probably cost them the Senate; 2. Some real wackos road his coattails to get elected that now they have to deal with (especially in the aftermath of 1/6) and 3. Trump is well positioned to really disrupt the 2022 mid-terms and to make the 2024 primary chaotic.

And just wait until Bernie Madoff, Eric Rudolph and Ted K get pardoned on Wednesday. Once again, he'll steal the news cycle.

mercuryblues

(14,532 posts)
9. I'm waiting for the TV ads
Sun Jan 17, 2021, 09:32 AM
Jan 2021

Arrested for insurrection? Need a pardon. Call the legal offices of Fascists- R-Us at 1-888-782-5377. Yes 1-888-SUCKERS.

Can't afford us? We have monthly a payment plan.

Your pardon will come with intricate gold leaf lettering and a signed, personalized framed photo of Donald trump.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»BREAKING: MSNBC tv - Tru...