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Dirty Socialist

(3,252 posts)
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 03:39 AM Jan 2021

Update on my arrogant brewer brother re: minimum wage

A couple of days ago I got into it on Facebook with my know-it-all brother (who owns a brewery) regarding minimum wage. He had said an $11 per hour wage would kill jobs and businesses. I said the wage is well overdue. He responded by asking “have you ever set payroll?” And “you don’t own a business”.
Well, he sent me a PM saying it’s conmon courtesy to NOT debate his point on facebook, and I should post any criticism on my own timeline (I’ve never heard that before) He then said he will not debate me on the PM, but then proceded to debate me anyway.

45 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Update on my arrogant brewer brother re: minimum wage (Original Post) Dirty Socialist Jan 2021 OP
This message was self-deleted by its author Skittles Jan 2021 #1
He sure IS arrogant. He'll debate you on HIS terms only. CaliforniaPeggy Jan 2021 #2
"He'll debate you on HIS terms only." mitch96 Jan 2021 #11
Sadly, Your Brother Is Wrong WHITT Jan 2021 #3
Minimum wage money gets injected into economy. Rich tax cuts get parked in real estate Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2021 #9
exactly. money trickles up not down. rising tide :: all boats. including rowboats and yachts. bullimiami Jan 2021 #12
No tide rises from the top down. JHB Jan 2021 #29
INDEED WHITT Jan 2021 #27
Welcome to DU. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2021 #32
Thanks WHITT Jan 2021 #43
Your brother is wrong, and also a bit of an ass stopdiggin Jan 2021 #4
Maybe he's taking the narrow view that if he raises wages while his competitors pay slave wages progree Jan 2021 #5
he cant get a better price on beer? beer? mopinko Jan 2021 #6
Oooh superpatriotman Jan 2021 #14
Actually, his beer is pretty good Dirty Socialist Jan 2021 #16
well, if he cant afford to pay ppl a living wage, mopinko Jan 2021 #17
huzzah Claire Oh Nette Jan 2021 #39
You deserve better than his company. If it were me, I would distance myself and LiberalLoner Jan 2021 #7
As for the Facebook part, suggest that he kindly not chide you over... JHB Jan 2021 #8
Exactly. If he bombs your feed with a troll, you don't have to add to the mess Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2021 #10
Has anyone heard of this rule? Dirty Socialist Jan 2021 #13
i try not to be as sharp on other ppl's pages as i am on mine. mopinko Jan 2021 #19
a high school friend says that to me alllll the time OriginalGeek Jan 2021 #37
Tell him many companies are already starting DeminPennswoods Jan 2021 #15
In and Out Claire Oh Nette Jan 2021 #40
Henry Ford had it correct, DeminPennswoods Jan 2021 #45
Small business owners are some of the worst Johnny2X2X Jan 2021 #18
i have a small biz, too. mopinko Jan 2021 #21
It's about your values Johnny2X2X Jan 2021 #23
and to see your biz as something that belongs only to you. mopinko Jan 2021 #24
+1 Johnny2X2X Jan 2021 #30
sounds like mopinko Jan 2021 #31
i've got a question- mopinko Jan 2021 #20
It's an upper middle class car Dirty Socialist Jan 2021 #22
you should tell him to read- the millionaire next door. mopinko Jan 2021 #25
nouveau riche Claire Oh Nette Jan 2021 #41
Nuthin' Personal, but... WHITT Jan 2021 #44
In Columbus OH some of the best paying jobs are at Anheuser-Busch. way over minimum mackdaddy Jan 2021 #26
That's good insight Dirty Socialist Jan 2021 #28
blame shift Claire Oh Nette Jan 2021 #42
Simple fact of the matter is.... Happy Hoosier Jan 2021 #33
Here's the thing about paying working people more money... haele Jan 2021 #35
Exactly right. +1. NT Happy Hoosier Jan 2021 #36
I actually agree re: Facebook greenjar_01 Jan 2021 #34
bwahahahaha Claire Oh Nette Jan 2021 #38

Response to Dirty Socialist (Original post)

CaliforniaPeggy

(149,640 posts)
2. He sure IS arrogant. He'll debate you on HIS terms only.
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 03:58 AM
Jan 2021

And to hell with you.

I say debate him whenever and wherever you feel like it!

mitch96

(13,912 posts)
11. "He'll debate you on HIS terms only."
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 08:26 AM
Jan 2021

Yeah right...
As usual "they" are trying to make a ploy of seeing them selfs as victims and want to set the narrative..
Don't let him... I've found using gentle humor that paints them into a corner trying to explain their point works for me...YMMV
m

WHITT

(2,868 posts)
3. Sadly, Your Brother Is Wrong
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 04:12 AM
Jan 2021

EVERY TIME the Federal Minimum Wage has been increased, national employment has gone UP, except for once during the Carter administration. Turns out the national economy had already fallen into recession prior to that increase in the Federal Minimum Wage, therefore employment declined, but with no correlation to the increase (you don't normally know the national economy has fallen into recession until many quarters later).

Unfortunately, basic economics is not taught in schools.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,010 posts)
9. Minimum wage money gets injected into economy. Rich tax cuts get parked in real estate
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 07:32 AM
Jan 2021

... and art.

Parked money doesn't create productivity or spending.

Money in motion drives the economy. Minimum wage money is immediately put into motion.

WHITT

(2,868 posts)
27. INDEED
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 10:31 AM
Jan 2021

According to the experts, 96+% of added income to workers at those wage levels is spent right back out into the economy. A wonderful stimulus that expands the economy and creates jobs.

stopdiggin

(11,317 posts)
4. Your brother is wrong, and also a bit of an ass
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 05:32 AM
Jan 2021

No only to you -- but his attitudes would suggest to others as well (employees, family?) (anybody that thinks $11/hrs is some kind of a high bar, is more or less a troglodyte) Moving on, you're never going to win an argument with a jackass -- but you can remain firm about not allowing someone to just steamroll you and the conversation. I find myself using the "I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one." Polite -- but not acceding, and not backing away. And then stick to it. No more argument. I just DON'T agree with you.

progree

(10,909 posts)
5. Maybe he's taking the narrow view that if he raises wages while his competitors pay slave wages
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 05:45 AM
Jan 2021

then he might indeed end up non-competitive.

But if wages were raised nationwide, then that wouldn't be a problem, he and they could raise prices, though there might be some reduction in sales.

Now if overseas competition in the beer market is significant...

mopinko

(70,130 posts)
17. well, if he cant afford to pay ppl a living wage,
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 09:35 AM
Jan 2021

then he doesnt know how to run a biz.
beer is cheap to make. maybe he doesnt know how to market it.
what does his brand look like? plenty of good designers out there. he should spruce it up.

LiberalLoner

(9,762 posts)
7. You deserve better than his company. If it were me, I would distance myself and
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 06:35 AM
Jan 2021

Spend more time instead with people who treated me and other people better. Life is too short. ❤️🌹

JHB

(37,161 posts)
8. As for the Facebook part, suggest that he kindly not chide you over...
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 06:47 AM
Jan 2021

...an unwritten "rule" that you'd never heard of and never agreed to.

If he puts political stuff on your feed, it's fair for you to respond. What's not fair is for him to say his piece and then lean on family ties to try to shut you up.

If he wants to keep Facebook a mostly "friends and family" zone, suggest he set up a second account to air his political opinions (of course, you'd have to do the same). Then don't "friend" it, or mute it, or whatever it takes for you to not see his political stuff.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,010 posts)
10. Exactly. If he bombs your feed with a troll, you don't have to add to the mess
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 07:37 AM
Jan 2021

Do unto others as they do unto you?

If he bombs your feed, you are well within your rights, moral and legal, to shovel it back into his feed.

He has revealed himself to be narcissistic:
"Do as I say but not as I do."
"Rules don't apply to me because I am a member of a privileged class."

mopinko

(70,130 posts)
19. i try not to be as sharp on other ppl's pages as i am on mine.
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 09:37 AM
Jan 2021

and i have told ppl to take their crap to their own page, and get off mine.

but that's about as far as it goes. my family members can uf me if they dont like it. i dont hold back w that shit. they know that coming in, tho.

OriginalGeek

(12,132 posts)
37. a high school friend says that to me alllll the time
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 12:41 PM
Jan 2021

whiney right-wing QAnon conspiracy theory promulgator but gets mad that I "come to his page to tell him he's wrong"

I try to tell him I am just responding to his posts that show up in my feed. That's how facebook works. You post moronic conspiracy theories and praise tRump and, because we are friends, they show up in my feed and I disagree with them. IF you don't like that and would prefer an echo chamber of loony fellow conspiracists (one of them doesn't believe we went to the moon and "researched the science thoroughly" before denying her kids any vaccines) then create a private group for you and them and don't invite me.

DeminPennswoods

(15,286 posts)
15. Tell him many companies are already starting
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 09:06 AM
Jan 2021

employees at $12+, including Walmart. And, this is in my rust belt area.

Claire Oh Nette

(2,636 posts)
40. In and Out
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 01:05 PM
Jan 2021

Some 20+ years ago, In and out burger in the Bay Area was paying $3.00+ more per hour than the federal minimum wage. About floored my half sister who lives in WV.

The government tipped their hand during the first part of the pandemic when they supplemented wages to the tune of...wait for it...the equivalent of $31,000 a year.

Yep. $600 a week. 52 weeks. $31,200. THAT IS THE POVERTY LINE.

It's trite, but write, email, tweet, call your senators and representatives. The angry right oppressor class is simply whiny and loud. Well, we can be loud and well written, too.

oh, and GOTV.

Johnny2X2X

(19,066 posts)
18. Small business owners are some of the worst
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 09:35 AM
Jan 2021

Not all of them, I know many great small business owners, but a large portion are what's wrong with this country. They think owning a store, or some small service industry with a few dozen employees entitles them to be millionaires. They take great steps to ensure that the jobs they offer are of the least skill possible so they don't have to pay.

The #1 reason they won't pay a living wage is 1 word, GREED!!! They want to keep it all for themselves. And they've constructed their businesses and their realities around greed. Their world becomes one where they're the lords of their kingdom, their workers are the peasants who owe their very lives to them, the owners. They will lionize everything about themselves, they are the "job creators" who've built something out of nothing (Even though probably inherited their business). their workers become the huddled masses who only eat and clothe themselves by the good graces of their owners. It becomes a sickness, it infects every detail about them.

I recall a local home and garden center my wife worked at for a while years ago. At the company Christmas party, the owner got up and gave what he felt was his heart felt thank you to his staff. It was so self congratulating you wouldn't believe it. "My workers kid's have shoes because of me." He literally said that. Delusion. This is a man who's father and mother started a business, he took it over from them. They got extremely lucky when some of the undeveloped farm land they owned happened to be in the way of a proposed new highway, they sold their land at a premium and made millions.

A decent man, would never say, "I put shoes on the feet of my worker's children." He'd say, "my workers put shoes on my feet." There's this excuse making and justification that becomes their life because really they're just greedy and don't value their employees enough o give them and their families good lives.

The opposite is my wife's gardening business. She pays her employees extremely well, $20-25 and hour depending on the job, she is deeply concerned about their and their family's lives. She makes enough to sustain the business and pay her bills, she could dumb things down for her employees and hire less competent workers, but she wants the best service so she only hires pros who know a ton about gardening. Her workers make in the ball park of what she makes, I'd guess her salary is maybe 15-20% higher than her workers (she works at least 50% more hours than them). And this is the only way she'd do it. She would be absolutely miserable having less skilled workers who were more replaceable while she made 2 or 3 times what they make. Because she cares about people.

In order to want to get rich off the sweat of other people, you have to suspend caring for your fellow man. Doesn't mean small business owners can't be wealthy, just that there are righteous ways to do it so many ignore.

mopinko

(70,130 posts)
21. i have a small biz, too.
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 09:43 AM
Jan 2021

i have a small urban farm, and i have rental properties.
i pay ppl $20/hr to work on the farm. i have ppl who do remodeling work for me. they get paid whatever the hell they want.
i had a cleaning lady for a long time that i paid $100 for half a day.

my ppl work hard for me. they are loyal. i am their fave client.

you get what you pay for.

Johnny2X2X

(19,066 posts)
23. It's about your values
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 10:07 AM
Jan 2021

Do you value your employee's time and their skills, or are they just vehicles to enrich you? Obviously you value your employees. It takes a warped mind to start seeing employees not as other people, but as a means to enrich yourself.

mopinko

(70,130 posts)
24. and to see your biz as something that belongs only to you.
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 10:18 AM
Jan 2021

my farm doesnt rly make money, yet. would have done last year but for the plague.
but i didnt start it on a shoestring. i used to be married to a guy who made fucktons of money.
i'm not any more, but i got a fair deal in my divorce.

i invested that money right here in my hood. in the end, my investments will pay off.
but the farm has ALWAYS been about the hood, and the ppl in it.
i teach ppl about gardening and i start kids off on a lifetime of good eating habits.
i once had a regular farmer ask me 'what is it you do on your so-called farm?'
me- i spend more time teachin and preachin than planting and picking.

that attitude is why goose island grew into a premier brewery. they made great beer, but they went to great lengths to teach their customers about beer.

i'll leave this little part of the planet a better place. i wont be taking my money w me.

Johnny2X2X

(19,066 posts)
30. +1
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 10:57 AM
Jan 2021

Fantastic!

The wife's business is built around helping mostly retired garden lovers who are just too old to maintain their gardens. Sure, she targets wealthy retirees, but they will do jobs almost for free for lower income garden lovers. Her business is successful, the measure of success isn't how wealthy she becomes, it's how happy she makes her clients and how fulfilling the work is for her and her employees.

But if becoming rich is your goal, $15 an hour isn't going to stop you from that. It's going to change your business model some, it's going to force you to invest more in your employees and then you can expect more from them, which they're more likely be willing to give.

$15 is fair for a minimum wage, it will allow plenty of profit still and a dignified existence for most people.

mopinko

(70,130 posts)
20. i've got a question-
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 09:39 AM
Jan 2021

what kind of car does he drive?
unless he drives a middle class car, or an old car, he should stfu.

mopinko

(70,130 posts)
25. you should tell him to read- the millionaire next door.
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 10:19 AM
Jan 2021

most of the ppl in that book drive old beaters.

Claire Oh Nette

(2,636 posts)
41. nouveau riche
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 01:26 PM
Jan 2021

They are crass new money.

They mock poor people who have nice cars, yet practice the very same behavior. I want everyone to know I have a little bit more than they do.

People with class, of all income levels, don't measure people by their cost of their possessions or the size of their...wallets.

WHITT

(2,868 posts)
44. Nuthin' Personal, but...
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 03:26 PM
Jan 2021

'Millionaire Next Door' is propaganda. It's based upon a self-selected "survey" of 11,000 "millionaires", with a predetermined outcome.


mackdaddy

(1,527 posts)
26. In Columbus OH some of the best paying jobs are at Anheuser-Busch. way over minimum
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 10:28 AM
Jan 2021

Also I think his bigger issue is that he realized that if his customers saw his posts saying that they don't deserve a living wage, they might not be his customers any longer.

So not that is political position is reprehensible. Just that publicly acknowledging that reprehensible position is a problem.. for him.

Claire Oh Nette

(2,636 posts)
42. blame shift
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 01:31 PM
Jan 2021

That's exactly what he is afraid of, mack.

Rather than see himself and his attitudes toward other people as the actual problem, he wants to make it DirtySocialist's fault for pointing out his bad behavior.

Textbook.

bless his heart....

Happy Hoosier

(7,314 posts)
33. Simple fact of the matter is....
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 12:14 PM
Jan 2021

That if he can't afford to pay his employees a living wage, he shouldn't be in business.

If he pays his employees a poverty wage (which he is, by definition, if they aren't making a living wage), then he is expecting the community at large, through the government, to make up the difference. In other words, the government is subsidizing him by allowing him to have artificially low labor costs. Isn't that the socialism these people hate so much?

Again, bottom line... if he can't afford the actual labor costs to produce his product, he SHOULD go out of business.

haele

(12,660 posts)
35. Here's the thing about paying working people more money...
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 12:30 PM
Jan 2021

It always goes back into the community and smaller businesses.
It has been proven time and time again, that most people who get raises in their regular income, even it it's only $.25 more an hour, will pay off bills first, then increase both their spending and their savings together. Give someone a $100 a month raise, and they will buy better food, eat out more, and buy more beer. People with raises start saving to put down on new or used vehicles, or even better housing options.

Just as increases in food stamps tend to help small groceries as well as the local Walmarts and Targets.

Haele

 

greenjar_01

(6,477 posts)
34. I actually agree re: Facebook
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 12:19 PM
Jan 2021

I don't host people's objections on my Facebook posts, and I do think it's rude to jump in debating somebody on their post. I delete comments on my posts if I don't like them, frankly.

He's wrong on wage, of course.

Claire Oh Nette

(2,636 posts)
38. bwahahahaha
Mon Jan 25, 2021, 12:48 PM
Jan 2021

No, he's butt hurt because you told the truth. Conscience of guilt. Look it up.

He does not get to decide who says what. He wants to dictate the terms and the outcome of his decision to be a cheap selfish bastard. Nope.

Had he wanted it private, he would have taken it to PM immediately, not after you exposed him to your "friends" and his "friends." Nope.

He doesn't get to decide what you post on your page, either. Nope.

He wants to berate you because you called him out, but he also said he refuses to listen to anyone but himself. Nope.

He's every jackass I went to high school with who sat in the back, screwed around, copied my homework, and had their girlfriend write their five paragraph essays. I did the math. A 30% increase in salary to his TWO employees would set his profits back ~$14,000.

Common courtesy on facebook my ass.
He never learned to share in kindergarten.
He hates that the Golden Rule is making a big comeback.
He's a whiny little baby.

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