General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsUpdate on my arrogant brewer brother re: minimum wage
A couple of days ago I got into it on Facebook with my know-it-all brother (who owns a brewery) regarding minimum wage. He had said an $11 per hour wage would kill jobs and businesses. I said the wage is well overdue. He responded by asking have you ever set payroll? And you dont own a business.
Well, he sent me a PM saying its conmon courtesy to NOT debate his point on facebook, and I should post any criticism on my own timeline (Ive never heard that before) He then said he will not debate me on the PM, but then proceded to debate me anyway.
Response to Dirty Socialist (Original post)
Skittles This message was self-deleted by its author.
CaliforniaPeggy
(149,640 posts)And to hell with you.
I say debate him whenever and wherever you feel like it!
mitch96
(13,912 posts)Yeah right...
As usual "they" are trying to make a ploy of seeing them selfs as victims and want to set the narrative..
Don't let him... I've found using gentle humor that paints them into a corner trying to explain their point works for me...YMMV
m
WHITT
(2,868 posts)EVERY TIME the Federal Minimum Wage has been increased, national employment has gone UP, except for once during the Carter administration. Turns out the national economy had already fallen into recession prior to that increase in the Federal Minimum Wage, therefore employment declined, but with no correlation to the increase (you don't normally know the national economy has fallen into recession until many quarters later).
Unfortunately, basic economics is not taught in schools.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,010 posts)... and art.
Parked money doesn't create productivity or spending.
Money in motion drives the economy. Minimum wage money is immediately put into motion.
bullimiami
(13,099 posts)JHB
(37,161 posts)WHITT
(2,868 posts)According to the experts, 96+% of added income to workers at those wage levels is spent right back out into the economy. A wonderful stimulus that expands the economy and creates jobs.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,010 posts)WHITT
(2,868 posts)stopdiggin
(11,317 posts)No only to you -- but his attitudes would suggest to others as well (employees, family?) (anybody that thinks $11/hrs is some kind of a high bar, is more or less a troglodyte) Moving on, you're never going to win an argument with a jackass -- but you can remain firm about not allowing someone to just steamroll you and the conversation. I find myself using the "I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one." Polite -- but not acceding, and not backing away. And then stick to it. No more argument. I just DON'T agree with you.
progree
(10,909 posts)then he might indeed end up non-competitive.
But if wages were raised nationwide, then that wouldn't be a problem, he and they could raise prices, though there might be some reduction in sales.
Now if overseas competition in the beer market is significant...
mopinko
(70,130 posts)tell him to make better beer.
superpatriotman
(6,249 posts)That would be a great burn.
Make better beer!
Dirty Socialist
(3,252 posts)mopinko
(70,130 posts)then he doesnt know how to run a biz.
beer is cheap to make. maybe he doesnt know how to market it.
what does his brand look like? plenty of good designers out there. he should spruce it up.
Claire Oh Nette
(2,636 posts)LiberalLoner
(9,762 posts)Spend more time instead with people who treated me and other people better. Life is too short. ❤️🌹
JHB
(37,161 posts)...an unwritten "rule" that you'd never heard of and never agreed to.
If he puts political stuff on your feed, it's fair for you to respond. What's not fair is for him to say his piece and then lean on family ties to try to shut you up.
If he wants to keep Facebook a mostly "friends and family" zone, suggest he set up a second account to air his political opinions (of course, you'd have to do the same). Then don't "friend" it, or mute it, or whatever it takes for you to not see his political stuff.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,010 posts)Do unto others as they do unto you?
If he bombs your feed, you are well within your rights, moral and legal, to shovel it back into his feed.
He has revealed himself to be narcissistic:
"Do as I say but not as I do."
"Rules don't apply to me because I am a member of a privileged class."
Dirty Socialist
(3,252 posts)About not debating someone on somebodys facebook post?
mopinko
(70,130 posts)and i have told ppl to take their crap to their own page, and get off mine.
but that's about as far as it goes. my family members can uf me if they dont like it. i dont hold back w that shit. they know that coming in, tho.
OriginalGeek
(12,132 posts)whiney right-wing QAnon conspiracy theory promulgator but gets mad that I "come to his page to tell him he's wrong"
I try to tell him I am just responding to his posts that show up in my feed. That's how facebook works. You post moronic conspiracy theories and praise tRump and, because we are friends, they show up in my feed and I disagree with them. IF you don't like that and would prefer an echo chamber of loony fellow conspiracists (one of them doesn't believe we went to the moon and "researched the science thoroughly" before denying her kids any vaccines) then create a private group for you and them and don't invite me.
DeminPennswoods
(15,286 posts)employees at $12+, including Walmart. And, this is in my rust belt area.
Claire Oh Nette
(2,636 posts)Some 20+ years ago, In and out burger in the Bay Area was paying $3.00+ more per hour than the federal minimum wage. About floored my half sister who lives in WV.
The government tipped their hand during the first part of the pandemic when they supplemented wages to the tune of...wait for it...the equivalent of $31,000 a year.
Yep. $600 a week. 52 weeks. $31,200. THAT IS THE POVERTY LINE.
It's trite, but write, email, tweet, call your senators and representatives. The angry right oppressor class is simply whiny and loud. Well, we can be loud and well written, too.
oh, and GOTV.
DeminPennswoods
(15,286 posts)pay your employees well enough that they can afford to buy your products.
Johnny2X2X
(19,066 posts)Not all of them, I know many great small business owners, but a large portion are what's wrong with this country. They think owning a store, or some small service industry with a few dozen employees entitles them to be millionaires. They take great steps to ensure that the jobs they offer are of the least skill possible so they don't have to pay.
The #1 reason they won't pay a living wage is 1 word, GREED!!! They want to keep it all for themselves. And they've constructed their businesses and their realities around greed. Their world becomes one where they're the lords of their kingdom, their workers are the peasants who owe their very lives to them, the owners. They will lionize everything about themselves, they are the "job creators" who've built something out of nothing (Even though probably inherited their business). their workers become the huddled masses who only eat and clothe themselves by the good graces of their owners. It becomes a sickness, it infects every detail about them.
I recall a local home and garden center my wife worked at for a while years ago. At the company Christmas party, the owner got up and gave what he felt was his heart felt thank you to his staff. It was so self congratulating you wouldn't believe it. "My workers kid's have shoes because of me." He literally said that. Delusion. This is a man who's father and mother started a business, he took it over from them. They got extremely lucky when some of the undeveloped farm land they owned happened to be in the way of a proposed new highway, they sold their land at a premium and made millions.
A decent man, would never say, "I put shoes on the feet of my worker's children." He'd say, "my workers put shoes on my feet." There's this excuse making and justification that becomes their life because really they're just greedy and don't value their employees enough o give them and their families good lives.
The opposite is my wife's gardening business. She pays her employees extremely well, $20-25 and hour depending on the job, she is deeply concerned about their and their family's lives. She makes enough to sustain the business and pay her bills, she could dumb things down for her employees and hire less competent workers, but she wants the best service so she only hires pros who know a ton about gardening. Her workers make in the ball park of what she makes, I'd guess her salary is maybe 15-20% higher than her workers (she works at least 50% more hours than them). And this is the only way she'd do it. She would be absolutely miserable having less skilled workers who were more replaceable while she made 2 or 3 times what they make. Because she cares about people.
In order to want to get rich off the sweat of other people, you have to suspend caring for your fellow man. Doesn't mean small business owners can't be wealthy, just that there are righteous ways to do it so many ignore.
mopinko
(70,130 posts)i have a small urban farm, and i have rental properties.
i pay ppl $20/hr to work on the farm. i have ppl who do remodeling work for me. they get paid whatever the hell they want.
i had a cleaning lady for a long time that i paid $100 for half a day.
my ppl work hard for me. they are loyal. i am their fave client.
you get what you pay for.
Johnny2X2X
(19,066 posts)Do you value your employee's time and their skills, or are they just vehicles to enrich you? Obviously you value your employees. It takes a warped mind to start seeing employees not as other people, but as a means to enrich yourself.
mopinko
(70,130 posts)my farm doesnt rly make money, yet. would have done last year but for the plague.
but i didnt start it on a shoestring. i used to be married to a guy who made fucktons of money.
i'm not any more, but i got a fair deal in my divorce.
i invested that money right here in my hood. in the end, my investments will pay off.
but the farm has ALWAYS been about the hood, and the ppl in it.
i teach ppl about gardening and i start kids off on a lifetime of good eating habits.
i once had a regular farmer ask me 'what is it you do on your so-called farm?'
me- i spend more time teachin and preachin than planting and picking.
that attitude is why goose island grew into a premier brewery. they made great beer, but they went to great lengths to teach their customers about beer.
i'll leave this little part of the planet a better place. i wont be taking my money w me.
Fantastic!
The wife's business is built around helping mostly retired garden lovers who are just too old to maintain their gardens. Sure, she targets wealthy retirees, but they will do jobs almost for free for lower income garden lovers. Her business is successful, the measure of success isn't how wealthy she becomes, it's how happy she makes her clients and how fulfilling the work is for her and her employees.
But if becoming rich is your goal, $15 an hour isn't going to stop you from that. It's going to change your business model some, it's going to force you to invest more in your employees and then you can expect more from them, which they're more likely be willing to give.
$15 is fair for a minimum wage, it will allow plenty of profit still and a dignified existence for most people.
mopinko
(70,130 posts)your wife and i would be fast friends.
mopinko
(70,130 posts)what kind of car does he drive?
unless he drives a middle class car, or an old car, he should stfu.
Dirty Socialist
(3,252 posts)mopinko
(70,130 posts)most of the ppl in that book drive old beaters.
Claire Oh Nette
(2,636 posts)They are crass new money.
They mock poor people who have nice cars, yet practice the very same behavior. I want everyone to know I have a little bit more than they do.
People with class, of all income levels, don't measure people by their cost of their possessions or the size of their...wallets.
WHITT
(2,868 posts)'Millionaire Next Door' is propaganda. It's based upon a self-selected "survey" of 11,000 "millionaires", with a predetermined outcome.
mackdaddy
(1,527 posts)Also I think his bigger issue is that he realized that if his customers saw his posts saying that they don't deserve a living wage, they might not be his customers any longer.
So not that is political position is reprehensible. Just that publicly acknowledging that reprehensible position is a problem.. for him.
Dirty Socialist
(3,252 posts)I never thought of it that way.
Claire Oh Nette
(2,636 posts)That's exactly what he is afraid of, mack.
Rather than see himself and his attitudes toward other people as the actual problem, he wants to make it DirtySocialist's fault for pointing out his bad behavior.
Textbook.
bless his heart....
Happy Hoosier
(7,314 posts)That if he can't afford to pay his employees a living wage, he shouldn't be in business.
If he pays his employees a poverty wage (which he is, by definition, if they aren't making a living wage), then he is expecting the community at large, through the government, to make up the difference. In other words, the government is subsidizing him by allowing him to have artificially low labor costs. Isn't that the socialism these people hate so much?
Again, bottom line... if he can't afford the actual labor costs to produce his product, he SHOULD go out of business.
haele
(12,660 posts)It always goes back into the community and smaller businesses.
It has been proven time and time again, that most people who get raises in their regular income, even it it's only $.25 more an hour, will pay off bills first, then increase both their spending and their savings together. Give someone a $100 a month raise, and they will buy better food, eat out more, and buy more beer. People with raises start saving to put down on new or used vehicles, or even better housing options.
Just as increases in food stamps tend to help small groceries as well as the local Walmarts and Targets.
Haele
Happy Hoosier
(7,314 posts)greenjar_01
(6,477 posts)I don't host people's objections on my Facebook posts, and I do think it's rude to jump in debating somebody on their post. I delete comments on my posts if I don't like them, frankly.
He's wrong on wage, of course.
Claire Oh Nette
(2,636 posts)No, he's butt hurt because you told the truth. Conscience of guilt. Look it up.
He does not get to decide who says what. He wants to dictate the terms and the outcome of his decision to be a cheap selfish bastard. Nope.
Had he wanted it private, he would have taken it to PM immediately, not after you exposed him to your "friends" and his "friends." Nope.
He doesn't get to decide what you post on your page, either. Nope.
He wants to berate you because you called him out, but he also said he refuses to listen to anyone but himself. Nope.
He's every jackass I went to high school with who sat in the back, screwed around, copied my homework, and had their girlfriend write their five paragraph essays. I did the math. A 30% increase in salary to his TWO employees would set his profits back ~$14,000.
Common courtesy on facebook my ass.
He never learned to share in kindergarten.
He hates that the Golden Rule is making a big comeback.
He's a whiny little baby.