Twas a time when people wondered how an advanced nation like Germany allowed Hitler to become ruler

[Tom Rinaldo]

When I was younger I wondered about it too. Lots of folks were tempted to attribute Hitler's success and rise to power to supposedly unique aspects of German character; an obsession with "order", an acquiescence to "strong leadership" and reluctance to challenge authority, etc. etc. It was a German "problem", not ours.

It's all become clearer now, hasn't it? People say that Donald Trump is no Adolph Hitler. Of course he isn't. Hitler was unique, and so was Stalin, Franco, Batista, and Amin. And so is Duterte and Bolsonaro and Putin. And so would Marine Le Pen be if she ever manages to become President of France. Each had/has their own personal traits, their own personal excesses, their own varying degrees of extreme toxicity. When a nation flirts with authoritarian rule, to an extent it's luck of the draw exactly which flavor it ends up with, but almost universally it involves the embrace of a cult of personality and subservience to one man's will (they're always males, aren't they?) and a host of gray faced accomplices.

It is far past time to retire any illusion that there is something special in the American character, some magical essence of "American exceptionalism", that protects us here against the rise of domestic fascism. Germany was absolutely devastated after it lost World War One. It entered its own Great Depression immediately and never left it. Desperation was at epic proportions when the Nazi's rose to power. We don't even have that excuse. Trump rose to power in relatively "good times" in America. Any stress on our democracy in recent decades pales compared to what the Weimar Republic, Germany's government from 1919 to 1933, was battered by before Hitler seized control.

Believing that America was the world's bastion against fascism was a nice illusion while it lasted. For the moment we do still have a Republic, if we can keep it.

[dem4decades]

1. I used to wonder that too, I don't any longer.

[unblock]

2. Indeed. Let no one ever say it can't happen here.

[MFGsunny]

3. Great post - very well said. THANK YOU! n/t

[Johnny2X2X]

4. I've never wondered

That type of fear and hate has always been a huge part of the US. It's always been there just waiting to be woken up.

[RKP5637]

5. Yep, I used to wonder exactly the same thing, and now we see how gullible and delusional people

can be, to the point of allowing their nation once had to fade away. It is damn chilling how many people simply believe propaganda, especially now, when there are so many readily available sources of information. ... even to the point of invading/attacking their own capital in support of a sociopathic narcissistic liar.

[Tom Rinaldo]

11. The QAnon conspiracy theoies that tens of millions of Americans have swallowed whole

are every bit as detached from reality as any aspect of Nazi "ideology" ever was: the vast international "conspiracy" with pedophile cannibals unworthy of being deemed human pulling the strings. When people become willing to accept wild lies like that as real, no action taken to counter that supposed "threat" is too extreme to contemplate.

Sane powerful interests in Germany were willing to allow the spread of similar poison in Germany before Hitler consolidated power, thinking they could channel that energy for their own advantage.

[Irish_Dem]

6. We are in a real life history lesson of monumental proportions.

How a great country can fall from grace in a short period of time.

[wnylib]

52. Has it really been that short of a period?

Last edited Mon Jan 25, 2021, 03:46 PM - Edit history (1)

The Weimar Republic fell pretty quickly for many reasons, but one was the fact that a republican form of government was new to them.

The US has been around long enough to have developed institutions and traditions that took longer to tear down. This current situation did not begin with Trump. It goes back at least as far as Reagan, possibly farther. There has been a decades long demonization of all things liberal, accompanied by disinformation campaigns and rewriting of American history. This is a backlash to the FDR programs and an attempt to destroy those programs, from gutting Social Security to deregulating Wall Street.

It has taken several decades of relentless disinformation to weaken American institutions. Trump just added the top level of frosting on the cake by divorcing us totally from reality.

[Irish_Dem]

54. I agree it was decades in the making, but when Trump came into office it was on steroids.

[wnylib]

64. Yes, Trump was open about things that

Last edited Mon Jan 25, 2021, 10:58 PM - Edit history (1)

had been brewing prior to him.

[llashram]

7. this

[TigressDem]

8. Yeah, it's a kick in the pants. BUT the HOPE is in a DEMOCRACY we fight like hell to keep them OUT.

I think about how much the take over in Germany went on behind closed doors and how the press was turned into a propaganda machine. Even the former POPE - Benedict was in Hitler's Youth at 14 years of age.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/pope-benedict-dogged-nazi-past-achievements-jewish-relations/story?id=18469350


Our FOURTH ESTATE was crippled, but not completely over run.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Estate


I DON'T think we are under an ILLUSION, just a fierce COMMITMENT to NOT LET America GO THERE.


tRump stole 2016 and then whined that 2020 was stolen from him.


YOU ARE RIGHT THAT WE STILL HAVE TO FIGHT TO KEEP our Democracy..... I hate calling it a "Republic" for obvious reasons.


Our APATHY is our biggest enemy.

[Frustratedlady]

9. Remember that his first wife used to say he had two books on his night table on Hitler...

I realize he doesn't read, but I'm sure the books weren't there for effect. Books on Hitler would be right up his alley and might have piqued his interest enough that he managed to make it through the entire volumes (or had many photos he could peruse).

That said, how many people do you know who would read themselves to sleep with books on Hitler?

I just found it interesting.

[RKP5637]

31. I had read that once too, and have thought about it often ... in may ways he was

following Hitler's playbook. It was so obvious what was going on ... yet many ignored it or did not get it ... and then those thinking they could profit from it by being a favorite, Ted Cruz comes to mind as one example ... and Lindsey Graham.

[Shermann]

10. The Obama Economy limited the damage

You can't really say you are better off now than you were four years ago.

That wasn't the case four years in with Hitler.

[luvtheGWN]

24. I recall reading about how incredibly bad the German economy was.

Perhaps apocryphal, but apparently someone going to buy a loaf of bread had to take a wheelbarrow full of deutschemarks in order to pay for it. The Germans were desperate, and they were very aggrieved by the reparations the allies forced on them.

So it's little wonder that they had no trust in their government and would look for anyone who would bring them out of their misery. They were ripe for the picking, and of course Hitler had to provide them an enemy -- in this case it was the Jews who owned many big corporations and ran many of the big banks. They were also the "elites" -- doctors, lawyers, professors. Well educated folk.

Many people have noted that Trump -- just like Hitler -- picked supposed enemies that his followers could hate.


Straight out of Hitler's handbook.

[misanthrope]

57. The American analog to Weimar Germany's psychological uncertainty

was the election of Barack Obama. When a nation is founded on centuries of white supremacy -- a philosophy so central to the national story it resulted in the greatest loss of life in American history -- then it isn't surprising.

The oncoming backlash to Obama was signaled in the rapid rise and influence of the Tea Party. Those were the tea leaves to be read. What we're experiencing now is the predictable tumult from the "browning" of the national identity. Trump is an aspect of that.

[luvtheGWN]

65. Yes. I always felt that the Tea Party

had nothing to do with economics and everything to do with hatred of a black president. But I do not ever recall any pundit expressing that possibility.....

[misanthrope]

68. I saw punditry opine the racial motivations in the Tea Party

I can't recall specific authors, but I know they were out there.

[doc03]

12. That was something I always thought that it couldn't happen here. I thought it was part

of the German heritage to like war. I think now unless Biden can turn the country around before 2022
we will face someone like Hawley that has a brain in 2024. If we lose in 2024 it will be the end of Democracy in the
USA. Can you imagine the people that attempted a coup running as a "Patriot" party candidate? Like it has been said
"If fascism comes to the USA it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a bible".

[Turin_C3PO]

18. Hawley's national aspirations are over.

Due to his role in the attempted coup, donors have stopped giving to him and he’s lost some supporters. Plus, he doesn’t have Trump’s “charisma”. He’ll be lucky if he isn’t voted out as MO Senator.

[GoneOffShore]

19. Tom Cotton is now the one to look out for.

[Turin_C3PO]

20. He's pretty boring though.

I agree that he’s a dangerous fascist but have you heard the man speak? Watching paint dry is more exciting.

[GoneOffShore]

28. There is that, but I still worry. The derplorables may want boring for a bit.

[A HERETIC I AM]

33. Ron DeSantis.

Watch out for the Governor of Florida. I would bet a days pay he runs for the Republican nomination in either ‘24 or ‘28. He is a serious Trumpy wannabe, but he has the bona fides.

He has the law degree, the military background and he isn’t stupid, which makes him way more dangerous than Trumpy.

[GoneOffShore]

46. Totally agree with that.

[Turin_C3PO]

49. Yes,

he’s a dangerous, intelligent, lunatic that could do serious damage if he won the nomination in the future.

[appalachiablue]

90. +1 good call

[Mike 03]

13. Excellent. The playbook is always the same, from Mussolini to Orban and

Berlusconi to Trump. And it is now being used by many GOP too.

So simple a child can use it to divide a school: "Us vs. The Enemy."

Authoritarians need the elites to help them; they cannot rise alone.

In Hitler's case, some people even more powerful than him thought they could "use" him to achieve their own ends, believing he was a useful idiot (especially Kurt von Schleicher and Franz von Papen, but later Paul von Hindenburg) to form a coalition government to block the liberal parties from controlling the Reichstag. They played Russian Roulette and lost, and von Schleicher paid with his life on The Night of the Long Knives.

Doesn't that sound like the case with Trump? McConnell, Jeff Sessions, other GOP, the Mercers, Sheldon Adelson, elites in the Christian Nationalist Movement and White Supremacists like Stephen Miller thought, "We have an apolitical, amoral useful idiot here who we can pressure to giver us judges, tax cuts, draconian immigration laws, anything we ask for."

[nuxvomica]

14. Germany's history should point the way to solving our problem

After WWI, the Kaiser was allowed to flee to exile in Holland while the German economy was gutted by the Treaty of Versailles. The nationalists that had supported the Kaiser, including religious fundamentalists, thrived in their complaint of victimhood and betrayal, convincing others and leading to the rise of Nazism. After WW2, the Allies got it right: reconstruction and reckoning. The controversial Marshall Plan rebuilt Germany, gave people jobs, while the Nuremberg Trials exposed the extent of Nazi villainy. This is what we must do now: rebuild the weakened sectors of the economy but hold the Trump administration accountable, turning over every rock we can. We have to do both to halt the march to fascism.

[Tom Rinaldo]

21. Great points

Those who DO learn from history are NOT doomed to repeat it. With the Nuremberg Trials and the Marshall Plan the U.S. extended both the arrows and the olive branch. Only one or the other would likely not have succeeded. Biden will not turn a blind eye toward the legitimate needs of rural America, but the fascists must face severe consequences, and until such time as that is fully possible they can not be allowed to "rehabilitate" their images as if nothing seditious was ever at foot.

[misanthrope]

67. So in your opinion

what was the chief failing of the United States' Reconstruction efforts in the South after the Civil War? It doesn't seem to have generated the same result as what happened in post-WWII Germany.

[Tom Rinaldo]

70. Sadly, I know a lot less about Reconstruction than I should

I know the basic outline and that is not nearly enough. The period of Reconstruction is an important historic blind spot for me, relatively speaking. I picked up Grant's biography at a remainder table several months ago but haven't opened it yet, it's a massive book and no doubt deservedly so. This is a good reminder to actually start reading it.

[misanthrope]

72. Yeah, that would be the closest analog to what you suggest for a domestic Marshall Plan

Those who facilitated the rise of the Confederacy were drummed out and the repressed classes empowered. They didn't try those who were corollaries of the defendants in the Nuremberg Trials. Troops were in place around the region to ensure there was no backsliding on the reform measures.

Then, throughout the 20th century the largely impoverished South was a large beneficiary to federal aid, namely in the New Deal measures and bodies like the Tennessee Valley Authority. Despite all of this, resentment of Washington DC and classic American values throbbed throughout the South and has become resurgent. What the Germans saw as outreach and structure, the American South saw as suppression.

[mountain grammy]

89. Grant was an amazing man.

Here's a link with information on a Grant documentary

https://heavy.com/streaming/2020/05/grant-documentary-history-channel-watch-online/

Not as deep as Chernow's book, but it was based on it and it is excellent. I read parts of the book, but, like you said, it's massive.

[Tom Rinaldo]

94. Thanks so much. I will check it out n/t

[misanthrope]

58. Who is the outside agency that will do that for us?

Americans won't accept the assistance in the way a decimated Germany did then.

[nuxvomica]

63. Reconstruction is basically the Biden agenda

When I said we needed reconstruction, I assumed it was our own government. Congress, the DOJ, and states attorney's general can deal with the reckoning.

[uponit7771]

73. +1, This is OP worthy

[bucolic_frolic]

15. Economics is known as political economy, for the most part, in Europe, for a reason

It's all an argument about how to divide the pie. Fascists rise to power because they surround themselves with kleptomaniacs who convince a segment of the population they will be fed some advantage in money, resources, plunder, hatred, lies, debauchery.

The formulae vary, but the formula never changes.

[dalton99a]

16. There can be no unity with lying, murderous fascists. Insurrection must have consequences.

[BarbD]

17. Apathy and not wanting to get involved.

thinking that somebody else will fix it.

Because all of my grandparents immigrated from either Germany or Austria, this subject fascinated me.

The best book I have read is "An Iron Wind - Europe Under Hitler" by Peter Fritzsche. He studied diaries, letters and other first person accounts from civilians in occupied Europe. These civilians wondered how the horror around them came about. Bottom line: a selfish indifference to their neighbor's fates.

Isn't that true of us when 30-40% never bother to vote, much less get involved in the community.

[misanthrope]

59. Cultural chasms

My sister and brother-in-law returned to the states within the last few years having spent the previous decade living in Germany. I listened intently to their stories and reflections on their visits home and during our communiques.

From what I gathered in their words, Germans have a sense of community responsibility and respect for laws as a protector of the common good that isn't found in America. It manifests in everything from appreciably less litter to driving techniques. Sometimes it is admirable, other times odd.

That is obviously not the case in America. This nation is built upon self-interest as the principle motivator for everything in life. As such, it is not to be hindered.

Caveat: this is second-hand extrapolation from the observations of others. First-hand experiences to the contrary would be more valid.

[mountain grammy]

22. Yes, I wondered too.

My mom, a first generation American born in 1912 to Polish/Jewish immigrants, always believed it could happen here, but it took me a long time to see it. That said, after watching a lifetime of American republcan politics, I wasn't shocked to see the rise of trump.

[Hortensis]

23. I always knew it could happen here, people are people, once just didn't think it would.

For the last quarter century, though, we've watched this build on the right as they realized an all-conservative party with strong white supremacy currents had become a minority that couldn't win national elections democratically.

“Maybe you do not care much about the future of the Republican Party. You should. Conservatives will always be with us. If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. Theu will reject democracy.”

David Frum, insightful moderate conservative, still Republican, never trumpist

[Tom Rinaldo]

30. Hadn't seen that quote from Frum before. Very sobering

Sometimes I think American politics can fit into three buckets. 1) Those who think that Justice might be swell but don't trust bleeding heart liberals not to kill the goose that lays the golden egg by destroying the vitality and subsequent fruits of "the free market" in misguided pursuits of said justice. 2) Those who think liberty, innovation, competition and entrepreneurship are just fine, but don't trust that an insufficiently regulated "free market" powered by "the profit motive" won't inevitably be corrupted by greed and the unbridled concentration of economic power to benefit the few at the expense of the many, and 3) Those who are motivated to game any system or set of professed values to benefit themselves and those they feel some kinship with, let all else be damned.

We can coexist with conservatives who fall into bucket one, there are even times when they have a legitimate point. Nowadays more self professed "conservatives" however can be found in bucket three.

[Hortensis]

41. Sure. It's always been the mainstream's job to contain extremists

of all viewpoints. Rational people can quarrel but manage to bump along, no matter what bucket one might best fit. But extremists are inherently intensely delusional and incompetent, ruthlessly contemptuous of what other people want, and destructive -- the lunatic fringe as progressive presidents TR and FDR called the ones on the left who were as eager to join other nations in socialist revolution as those on the right were to impose fascism. And now are once again.

The big scary changes of our time have lead to extremism once again rising on both left and right, but we could have handled them so much better if it weren't for the creation of the ultrawealthy classes, whose conservative activists all tend to be about as wise and responsible as "what a mess" murderer Charles Koch. They set out to move the nation much farther right, to fill government with their corrupt -- necessarily immoral and often extreme RW -- agents, and to eviscerate its ability to meet the great challenges of change. In spite of having the experience of Germany's wealthy conservatives to draw on, they didn't foresee the monster they created or that they wouldn't be able to control it.

“The Republican Party was built on a coalition of the nation’s biggest winners from globalization and its biggest losers. The winners wrote the policy; the losers provided the votes.”

― David Frum, Trumpocracy: The Corruption of the American Republic

“Even if plague and recession topple Trump from the presidency, that core Trump base will remain, alienated and resentful. An Arkansas pastor told the Washington Post in the first week of March that half his congregants would lick the floor to prove the virus harmless. If they would risk their lives for Trump, they will certainly risk the stability of American democracy. They brought the Trumpocalypse upon the country, and a post-Trumpocalypse country will have to find a way either to reconcile them to democracy—or to protect democracy from them.”

― David Frum, Trumpocalypse: Restoring American Democracy

Yup, much of the right's become radicalized this time, but we still outnumber them. And once again a majority is coming to realize the enormous danger of extremism.

[BrightKnight]

25. This virus creates a lot of chaos if you want to push a fascist takeover.

It is not unlike the post WW1 time in Germany. Many in the GOP appear to be actively trying to make it worse.

I get the impression that some in the GOP is too stupid to see a future without eliminating the democratic system.
The question is how do you stop it if there a real forces pushing for this. Failed coups are often followed by successful coups.

[Escurumbele]

26. Excellent Short Opinion

Thank you.

"American Exceptionalism" is a sales gimmick to make people obey and believe everything they are told...If one is great, how can we ever listen to negatives, which without we can never fix our problems. The first action to fix one's problems is to acknowledge there is a problem.

[dlk]

27. Propaganda works

The veneer of civility is thin and propaganda goes below the surface to incite what lies beneath.

[lark]

29. If the right isn't severely punished for their insurrection, the next one by them will win.

Think that's why repugs are so against it, they want to steal our country and turn us into a fascist white nationalist nation. They don't even try to win hearts and minds, they just want to steal America for the rich and white nd male and fuck everyone else.

[Turin_C3PO]

34. I feel strongly

that our new DOJ and FBI will come down hard on the domestic terrorists in our midst. It’s up to us as voters to elect and keep in office defenders of democracy. It’s a war with multiple fronts.

[lark]

37. I hope you are right about both parts and that our side stays very engaged.

[uponit7771]

75. +1, they only needed one of the Molitov Cocktails to light up the whole capital and prevent the ...

... certification of states that day.

Burnt down capital and happy MAGA Terrorist

[IronLionZion]

32. They claimed they would make Germany great again

Hitler appealed to a certain type of person during depression, folks who wanted to feel powerful and blame elitists and foreigners or perceived foreigners (Jews) for their problems. He claimed the world was picking on Germany and they won't be bullied any more. Hitler and the Nazis didn't think of themselves as the oppressors. Main Kampf was all about how he was the real victim in all this.

[misanthrope]

60. I have seen newspaper publishers use the same technique

Nothing makes people malleable like telling them what they want to hear.

[Jetheels]

36. Yep, same here. Guess we got a in real time history lesson in authoritarianism.

[peggysue2]

38. Spot on!

We now know without a doubt that the US is not immune to wanna-be tyrants and their enablers. That's a good thing because it should heighten our vigilance in the future.

However, we should also count our lucky stars and give credit to the American voters who unseated Trump after a single term. This is unusual in the history of tyrannical rulers who most often drive their countries into ruin before they're unseated. Rarely are they removed without full-scale violence. January 6th was an ugly though relatively small example.

We've been given another chance to get this right, bolster the guardrails and improve the welfare of our citizenry.

But as Joe Biden reminded us healing requires remembering those lost and how close we came to losing everything. We've been reminded how fragile a democratic construct is; how easily it can be threatened, weakened, overrun; how taking democracy for granted is the easiest way of losing it.

We've been tested. It's unlikely we'll be given another chance if and when the next authoritarian, a more attractive, articulate model comes strolling into our midst, takes power and succeeds in ways Trump and his coterie did not.

Never forget, never forgive.

[Turin_C3PO]

44. Exactly.

We’ve been given a second chance, now we must stay vigilant and engaged. 2022 will be upon us very soon and we must keep the House and Senate to give Joe a fighting chance to enact the kind of legislation we need to move forward as a country.

[billwtea]

39. "Learning From the Germans" GREAT book on this topic ...

or more precisely how Germany got past the Hitler age. Well written, with many specific lessons on how America could learn from the German experience, and some very hopeful tales of a few efforts in the U.S. that are making a difference.

[Tommymac]

40. The Filibuster is a weapon of authoritarians. Causes Public distrust of Democracy

There is no upside to this anti-majority rule.

It has been compromised by the adherents of white power and regardless of it's origin's is now pure Jim Crow.

The public wants the government to do something, and to hold those who obstruct progress responsible. In the Senate, having no vote on record for an issue is dictatorial - it allows the foes of Democracy to run roughshod over the Constitution.

Whatever it's upside, that is no match for the damage it does to the public perception of the party in power.

The majority speaks every two or four years. If the minority party wishes to have power, let them win elections.

[yellowdogintexas]

42. my mother always told me to never think it couldn't happen here.

She would be saying "I told you so" if she were here.

We spent many hours talking about it, and exchanging books about it. The past 4 years made me miss her deeply

[uponit7771]

43. THIS !!!! ☝🏾☝🏾☝🏾, FAUX News like information is 100% dangerous and should be fact checked! People

... don't know or realize how dangerous this information is to peoples justifications for doing what happened on Jan 6th

[msfiddlestix]

45. Absolutely..

if these past five years, isn't evidence to a significant and commonly shared American myth of our own political culture, pray tell what would be? The events of January 6th laid bare to all in a matter of several hours, a stark, gruesome reality check on this fact.

For me, January 6th shall for the rest of my life be seared into my consciousness the carnage brought by a population of cult followers, enablers and worshipers of a deranged psychopath.

I'm struggling how to teach my young granddaughters, the oldest in middle school, the youngest only 10 years old about these events and what it means. I'm struggling because I'm still quite wary and less optimistic that we'll manage to recover from this for years to come. What pray tell, shall we teach our children?

[Pepsidog]

47. I am watching again after many years Ken Burns The Civil War and it becomes clear that the former

Confederacy is alive and well. At the time of the Civil War the confederate states combines produced less than 1/4 of economic activity than NY City. Time to stop coddling these traitorous states and let them survive on there own without the Federal subsidies that keep them afloat.

[former9thward]

78. So you favor succession which the Civil War was fought to prevent?

[Pepsidog]

81. No I didn't mean secession. I am being petty and mean financial support. Blue states carrying red

states financially. States have no right to secede, the Civil War kinda proved that.

[Klaralven]

48. The combination of digital media and universal suffrage probably dooms democracy

Democracy developed from about 1700 on out of the conflict between the noble and ecclesiastic classes and the emerging capitalist bourgeoisie. In order to conduct business, the bourgeoisie had to be literate, numerate, and cognizant of the need for forethought. As printing became cheaper, periodicals dealing with political questions became popular in the coffeehouses and cafe's frequented by them, which led to the idea of public opinion arising out of reasoned analysis as being the basis for legitimate authority. This formed the basis for the transition to the legislative form of government with legislators elected by a restricted class of educated and propertied males.

In the twentieth century, this system was able to persist in spite of universal suffrage because public opinion was turned around. Public opinion was no longer bottom up as a synthesis of diverse opinion argued out among affinity groups interacting socially, but it became something conditioned through mass media by organizations still controlled by a small minority who largely hammered out compromises behind the scenes, rather than in public. The public interacted less in a social context, and they retired to their living rooms to watch television.

Digital media disrupts this, not because it expands media distribution, but because it vastly changes the cost and availability of the tools of media creation. You don't need hundreds of thousands of dollars of cameras, mixing boards, and editing tools to create video any more. Using the new tools allows anyone to become a "pamphleteer" akin to the 1700s, and the groups and followers on social media operate as so many "coffeehouses" where self-selecting affinity groups can read the pamphlets of their favorite opinion leaders, discuss them at length, and produce critical works for further consumption.

The difference now is that the inhabitants of the internet producing the new public opinion are not the literate, educated, far thinking bourgeoisie. They are the illiterate, uneducated masses who are keen on instant gratification. This, coupled with the fact that the problems faced by government are much more complex, hard to understand, and difficult to solve due to two centuries of progress, means that democracy is most likely an unstable form of government.

[Tom Rinaldo]

51. I think I get your point, but ultimately I reject it

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…" Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947

There is no fool proof form of government, nor a "golden era" when everything worked near flawlessly. Before the rabble, who neither had time nor social privilege to frequent "coffeehouses", organized into Unions, there were seven day work weeks, twelve hour days, child labor, and company stores.

I don't deny the threats that the social trends you speak of present us all with now. They are real and must be confronted, but there are potential tools available in a free and democratic society that can be used to counter those threats. It is an ongoing struggle and in that sense one could say that democracy in "an unstable form of government", one I will gladly struggle with rather than welcome the sense of stability that seems to grow in strength the more one moves closer to a totalitarian state.

[uponit7771]

76. Then that's why there should be a Fact Check Group or something close, the media must police them

... selves for democracy to survive.

[tiredtoo]

50. My thoughts on this

The United States is a plutocracy. Both parties are under control of big money (the wealthy). This creates a condition where laws and regulations are written primarily to benefit the wealthy. There have been various attempts by the public to overthrow this recently. The Tea Party, Occupy Wall Street and the Election of Trump. None have been successful for different reasons.

[Turin_C3PO]

74. The Democrats

are not part of the plutocracy. That's purely the territory of the Republicans. There's no "both sides" to this.

[tiredtoo]

82. I am going to have to politely disagree with you. NT

[PurgedVoter]

53. In the 60's "How could this happen?" In 2021 "We were robbed!"

In grade school I remember the children who were loudest in their disgust for anyone that would support Hitler. It is fifty plus years later and I have kept up with the politics of those same children. I don't stay in contact with these Fascists. But I watch so I can know who to avoid.

The White Rose Society stood up without violence against the rise of the Nazis. There is a picture of the memorial to them on the Wikipedia page.

I live in a very conservative community. I have bicycled with my children around the elder Bush's library. When you wave and say howdy, the odds are good you are waving at a Fascist who thinks Liberals are Fascists. Most would not come after you, but most would sympathize with someone that did.

I have attended a showing of the "Diary of Anne Frank," with an audience that for the most part would support ICE without question.
On occasion I shed tears for these poor souls that I grew up with.

[Tom Rinaldo]

55. And they brandish a copy of the constitution while they trample upon the real one

But, as someone wrote above, overall we still outnumber them,when one includes people of a conservative bent of mind who actually understand and value the principles of true democracy. We need to forge common ground with the latter during this fraught point in our history.

[raccoon]

56. K&R. Nt

[Behind the Aegis]

61. Silence was a big factor.

While many embraced what Hitler said and did, others justified, made excuses or rationalized, but some of the worst, were the ones who said nothing. Powerful voices were silent when they shouldn't have been. Collective voices were silent when they shouldn't have been. Dr. King once said something along the lines of, "It is not the words of our enemies we will remember, but the silence of our friends." Of course, most also know the poem from Niemöller, often overused or misused, IMO, but it, too, speaks to the deafening silence that led to tragedy on a massive scale.

[Act_of_Reparation]

62. You are overselling the importance of economic anxiety.

Yes, Germany was in economic shambles after World War I... but by the time Hitler actually came to power, it was already on the rebound.

The rise of fascism in Germany had more to do with a nation's wounded ego (losing World War I, and all that entailed) than buying power of the mark.

[Tom Rinaldo]

71. Actually I tried to indirectly make that point

by pointing out that, relatively speaking, the U.S. was not undergoing historic economic stress when Trump was elected through the start of the pandemic, so his ascent can not be pegged to that. But I suspect that having been left to rot in economic shambles for so long further nurtured Germany's wounded ego whether or not it was finally rebounding.

[uponit7771]

77. +1, and it wasn't the whole nation either. Hitler and the NAZI party had only 38% support at its ...

... peak nationally (sound familiar) and it was mostly the right being butt hurt due to rise of the Weimar Republic which was way left of Kaiser Wilhelm admin.

[Act_of_Reparation]

92. The NSDAP was only able to take power...

...because mainstream German politicians thought they could capitalize from Hitler's base while keeping him tethered... which is also eerily familiar.

[uponit7771]

95. +1, so much this too

[DFW]

66. The West allowed Germany to become a place where someone like Hitler could make it to the top

Versailles was a grudge fest for Clémanceau, Wilson had no clue, and twenty years later Neville Chamberlain gave Hitler the green light instead of a stop sign. Germany was an economic basket case in 1933, when Hitler was elected Reichskanzler (with less than 35% of the vote). They were ripe for a demagogue, since they had been stripped of all national dignity or the right to recover from the first world war. We were in far better shape after the Obama presidency, and it happened to us anyway. Germany had a logical explanation as to why 1933 happened.

We ran out of excuses in 2000, had none left by 2016.

[uponit7771]

84. "Germany had a logical explanation as to why 1933 happened." 👈🏾 THIS!!! I dispute that Germany was

... economically ripped in 1933 like it was before 31 and Germany was ripe for demagogue based of economics for a vast number of reasons it wasn't.

Nazis only had around 33% support in the German parliament in 1932 at its PEAK only had 43% support (sound familiar)
but the right under the Nazis in the Germany was able to stay together better than the left (sound familiar).

It was the right in the country that was butt hurt after the fall of Kaiser and people coddled and ignored them and the danger they posed.

I think we're making a similar mistake; letting these racist terrorist whine instead of putting their asses in jail and demonizing them and their sympathizer anti democracy movement.

I've been listening to FAUX News for the last 5 days, they're getting worse not better and feel justified for their terrorism without the least bit of contrition.

To your point, we're ... NO WHERE ... near the economic shithole Germany was in around 33. Germany had an adjusted GDP smaller than Italy today when they attacked Poland !!!

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

69. How was Hitler allowed to become ruler? Well, ...

... it all started when a Serbian separatist named Gavrilo Princip took a pistol and shot the Archduke Ferdinand of the Austrio-Hungary empire.

Austria-Hungary mobilized against Serbia, so Serbia's ally Russia mobilized against Austria-Hungary, so Austria-Hungary's ally Germany mobilized, so Russia's ally ....

Quickly, all of Europe and the Middle East were at war, drawing fighters from as far away as New Zealand and Australia.

When Hitler became Hitler, Germany was not in such an advanced state, having been defeated in the war and economically hampered by the Versailles treaty.

[Meowmee]

79. It is wrong to ascribe

This to a cult obsession. Germany and Europe had long histories of hatred/ antisemitism and bigotry before H came along and there is a similar situation here. I don’t think it can happen without that in place first.

[Tom Rinaldo]

83. Many nations have long histories of deeply embedded hatreds

It may be more the norm than the exception. They are the glowing embers that can flare up if given oxygen. Some demagogues are especially skilled at delivering it.

[Meowmee]

91. It was not just glowing embers in Germany and Eastern Europe and elsewhere

There was already a longterm established history of vicious anti-semtism and violence against the jewish populations for many many years in the form of pogroms and other forms.

[BobTheSubgenius]

80. Both tragic and frightening, but it's true.

A leader doesn't have to be "exactly like" [enter any name you like] to be a horrid person, politician, leader. There are all kinds of awful they could be harbouring.

[Initech]

85. I used to wonder how groups like Al Qaeda and the Taliban got started.

After watching the rise of the Proud Boys, the Boogaloo Bois, and the Taliban, I wonder no more!

[NoGOPZone]

86. "Good times" are a matter of definiton

Many of Trump supporters were so disturbed by an African American President and the possibility of a female successor that they did not appreciate the relative peace and prosperity of the time. And Trump's one discernible talent was that he recognized the when and the how of creating a cult

[jimlup]

87. Yes and had he who shall not be named actually been smarter...

we'd still be facing this clusterfuck.

[AntiFascist]

88. In the 1930's America wasn't such a "bastion against fascism"...

in fact the Nazis were inspired by the way our system had codified racism:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/11/what-america-taught-the-nazis/540630/

Hitler's American Model: the United States and the Making of Nazi Race Law

...
45 Nazi lawyers sailed for New York under the auspices of the Association of National Socialist German Jurists. The trip was a reward for the lawyers, who had codified the Reich’s race-based legal philosophy. The announced purpose of the visit was to gain “special insight into the workings of American legal and economic life through study and lectures,” and the leader of the group was Ludwig Fischer. As the governor of the Warsaw District half a decade later, he would preside over the brutal order of the ghetto.
...
Upon docking, the Germans attended a reception organized by the New York City Bar Association. Everyone in the room would have known about the recent events in Nuremberg, yet the quest by leading Nazi jurists to learn from America’s legal and economic systems was warmly welcomed.

Whitman, a professor at Yale Law School, wanted to know how the United States, a country grounded in such liberal principles as individual rights and the rule of law, could have produced legal ideas and practices “that seemed intriguing and attractive to Nazis.” In exploring this apparent incongruity, his short book raises important questions about law, about political decisions that affect the scope of civic membership, and about the malleability of Enlightenment values.
...

[Wounded Bear]

93. The Weimar Republic was a democracy in its infancy...

Germany did not have a long history of democratic institutions.

When Trump attacked America, we had over 200 years of democratic traditions and we barely weathered the storm.

This could definitely happen again, and the next guy to try it will probably be more competent and wily than Trump.