Interesting podcast from lawyer who sued hospital on behalf of 80-yr old COVID patient - Ivermectin

[crimycarny]

I just stumbled across this podcast with the lawyer who sued on behalf of the family whose 80-year old mother was in the ICU with COVID, given a 20% chance of living. Family wanted doctors to administer Ivermectin but the hospital refused after initial dosage (after which she improved enough to be taken off ventilator but started going downhill when her second dose was refused).

Very interesting insider details on the timeline of events. The lawyer also mentions another patient who family had to sue to get Ivermectin prescribed. In this case the hospital called the husband in as the patient was dying and wasn't expected to live. Finally got the Ivermectin administered and the patient stabilized within a few hours.

https://www.heartland.org/multimedia/podcasts/covid-19-patient-takes-hospital-to-court-to-continue-ivermectin-treatment

Here's what I don't understand. Ivermectin isn't something new. It's been used in humans for over 30 years. It's routinely used "off label" for scabies treatment. Why not allow "off label" use for COVID?

[Horse with no Name]

1. You are never--and shouldn't--going to win

A lawsuit because a doctor refused to use an off-label and potentially dangerous treatment.

[crimycarny]

4. Has been used "off label" for scabies for years - 30 year safety profile

Very commonly prescribed “off label” for scabies. Commonly prescribed for this purpose in nursing homes—not exactly the most robust patient base. Ivermectin is commonly used in poorer countries against various parasites. The drug has been a godsend to those countries. Inventors won Nobel Prize.

https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2015/press-release/

Safety profile has been known for over 30 years. Also, in the podcast case the patient was on a ventilator and given a 20% chance of living. The ICU doctor agreed to try Ivermectin. 48 hours after receiving her first dose of Ivermectin the only “side effect” was to improve so dramatically that she was taken off the ventilator and put in the COVID ward. The doctor in the COVID ward refused her second dose. That is why they sued.

I’m skeptical of “miracle cures” and never bought the hydroxychloroquine hype. I felt the same about Ivermectin until I started reading all the studies.

[Horse with no Name]

5. But it is off label for Covid

Everywhere except the bowels of the internet

[crimycarny]

6. So I guess if she was on a ventilator AND developed scabies she would be ok?

Doctor: "Hey, sorry your 80 year old mother has a 20% chance of living but we can't try Ivermectin 'cause the FDA hasn't approved it yet for COVID. Yeah, yeah, I know COVID is a novel virus which has only been around for a few months but unless it's FDA approved we can't prescribe it. Wait, what's that? She has scabies too? Cool! Let's prescribe the Ivermectin."

Lot's of double-blind studies now show compelling evidence that Ivermectin is effective against COVID. And 30 years of safety data as well.

https://covid19criticalcare.com/

[Wicked Blue]

2. Ivermectin is used to prevent fleas, ticks and heartworm in dogs

Vectra for external pests, Heartgard for the internal ones.

[crimycarny]

3. Ivermectin has been used in humans for over 30 yrs. Inventor won a Nobel prize

Ivermectin was discovered by William Campbell and Satoshi Omura to prevent devastating diseases caused by parasites , including river blindness, in humans. This drug has made such a positive impact on humanity that the inventors won a Nobel Prize:

https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2015/press-release/

It is used in animals as well, as are MANY common drugs used in humans.

Ivermectin has been used “off label” (i.e. not FDA approved) for scabies for years. It’s very common to use Ivermectin in nursing homes, for example, when there is a scabies outbreak.

[jcgoldie]

7. You do understand that ivermectin is medication for parasites and scabies is caused by mites

The analogy to treating a virus is completely unrelated. Anecdotal evidence to the contrary it makes no sense to expect that hospitals would approve such a treatment without extensive studies on its effectiveness.

[crimycarny]

8. Have you bothered to read any of the clinical trials already conducted on Ivermectin and COVID?

I have. It is an antiparasite drug, yes, but it also has a powerful antiviral effect against RNA viruses, not just COVID. See below for an explanation of it's mechanism of action:

A nursing home that had a scabies outbreak also ended up with a COVID outbreak, zero mortality in the LTCF (median age 90) that had treated with Ivermectin (for scabies), 4.9% lethality in another LTCF (median age 86) with no ivermectin treatment.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/bjd.19821

"In 5 March and May 15, 2020, 69 LTCF-A residents (median age 90, IQR 84–94; 78.3% female) and 52 staff members received ivermectin (Figure 1). Eleven persons presented confirmed or suspected COVID-19 (1.4% declared in the ARS online database), with first symptoms noticed on March 11, 2020 (Resident-1 on March 19, 2020). One -Resident-1- had a SARS-CoV-2–positive RT-PCR. No hospitalization and no death was noted. Fourty-five “matched” county-wide LTCFs were included as reference (out of 177) housing 3,062 residents (median age 86, IQR 87–89; 77.3% female). Among them, a mean of 22.6% (95%CI, 16.3%–28.9%) acquired declared COVID-19, with lethality of 4.9% (95% CI, 3.2%–6.5%)"

[crimycarny]

9. Dr. John Campbell

Rather long winded but this Doctor has been putting out updates on COVID-19 and the various treatments, etc. Very conservative in his analysis and just reports the data. He comes to the conclusion that the studies of Ivermectin against COVID are compelling enough that his conclusion is government agencies need to be looking into this "as some matter of priority". Fast forward to about 15 minutes where he goes over some of the studies. (And this video is a month old, more compelling data from additional studies have come out since then)

[Chakaconcarne]

10. It's not yet a proven treatment...

and....it cannot be ruled out that Ivermectin would be contraindicated with COVID...either with the illness, symptoms, etc... Despite it's history of safe use. It's not gone through the rigor of safety/efficacy that's going to protect your license should anything go wrong.

Suing because you want a Dr. to prescribe something off-label won't be ruled in your favor and seems to me you'd just be wasting time. Go find a doctor willing to take the risk.

At this point in time, it's no different than Hydroxychoroquine was 7 months ago. Ivermectin use for COVID has been swirling the QAnon realm... They ARE looking at it though..

[crimycarny]

11. If my mom has a 20% chance of survival what's to lose?

I’m not waiting around for the FDA.

Just because hydroxychloroquine didn’t pan out doesn’t mean ivermectin won’t.