General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPropane preparedness
So one small silver lining of a disaster like the one in Texas is that people (and governments) in other regions can monitor the situation and apply lessons learned to their own emergency preparedness.
I saw long "propane lines" on the news coverage and realized I wouldn't know how to employ propane as a survival resource. The poor souls standing in the endless lines all had the standard (and heavy) 20 pound LP tanks. Are these being used in generators? I wouldn't think that many people have generators, let alone dual fuel versions that take propane. Are they using the propane for portable indoor propane heaters? I realize those are safe, but most of them are designed for the smaller 1 pound tanks and I don't believe it's common to have those either. Personally I'd be nervous running an indoor heater off a 20 pound tank.
What am I missing? I do have some butane supplies for cooking in my preps. I do have a 20 pound LP tank for the grill and that's all it's for. Surely these people aren't all just grilling hamburgers and hotdogs? I admit to my ignorance here.
flying_wahini
(6,589 posts)efhmc
(14,725 posts)Well not now but I plan on buying a couple for emergency use when they are once again available. Mainly to put in a well pump house. Ours cracked during the extreme cold.
"Used properly, indoor propane heaters are safe. ... Never place anything on top of an indoor propane space heater. Install carbon monoxide detectors in your home, or the space where you use your indoor propane space heater. "
Rorey
(8,445 posts)I was just thinking that it might be a good idea to put in my emergency car kit, just in case. I know you're supposed to crack a window, but I think I'd feel more secure if I also had a detector.
Shermann
(7,413 posts)displacedtexan
(15,696 posts)We cook with a 2 burner Coleman stove when we camp. That's the extent of our buying and installing a propane tank.
I did spend a month in a house on the coast of Italy that used propane for the kitchen cooktop burners. The tank was housed under the cabinet on an outside wall. You turned an inside wall lever slowly white igniting the burner flame, and you had to turn the wall lever back the other way to extinguish the flame. It worked, but I have no idea if that would be safe in houses here.
Shermann
(7,413 posts)I'm pretty sure I could cook for several months with that supply if need be.
Rorey
(8,445 posts)What I do know is that after this crisis if over, I'm going to buy some alternate sources of heat to have on hand in case of an emergency. I won't even try to buy anything like that now because there are others who need it right now, and I don't.
Awhile back I bought a single burner dual fuel (butane and propane) stove so I can at least have coffee and heat up food if there's a power outage. I wanted to stock up on propane and butane canisters, but I ended up only getting a couple of the butane and a four-pack of propane because, again, there are others who need it more right now. I don't think it's right for me to have a hoard of it when it can be life and death for someone else.
Just a note for anyone who isn't aware: Butane is cheap, but only works if it's not too cold. That's why I got the duel fuel stove.
Roisin Ni Fiachra
(2,574 posts)Also, motor homes and travel trailers generally use propane systems to run their stoves, heat, and hot water heaters.
I have three portable propane heaters, a propane camp stove that run off 20 lb tanks, and an old, small 1982 motorhome, that uses a 20 lb tank for the stove, heater, and hot water. I don't use the built in furnace because it uses way too much propane. Instead, I use a portable propane heater that uses far less propane.
Look up "portable propane heaters" at Amazon and you'll see what I'm referring to.
riversedge
(70,204 posts)stove which run off propane.
Shermann
(7,413 posts)A mobile home would be another matter, although I'd expect most would hook up to the utilities in the trailer park and wouldn't have any use for a 20 pound tank.
Shermann
(7,413 posts)Surely in the natural gas capital, most homes have gas heat. Is that not the case? I've heard about water and electricity being out, but what about the natural gas?
This is not a good time to have a heat pump. It's never been a good time to have electric heat. What's up with all that?
dalton99a
(81,468 posts)Cirque du So-What
(25,932 posts)so theres that.
Shermann
(7,413 posts)Cirque du So-What
(25,932 posts)Shermann
(7,413 posts)It doesn't say anything about residential gas, other than it gets priority:
"Besides electricity, more than half of the gas goes to residential use like heating and cooling. The supply of gas is limited mostly by the pipelines, and as weather gets bad, either hot or cold, residential use gets priority. So electricity production gets short-shrifted, which is unfortunate for those three-in-five households in Texas that use electricity for home heating."
Cirque du So-What
(25,932 posts)Demand for natural gas to heat homes and businesses also spiked, contributing to shortages. And high gas prices further disrupted generation, as operators who could not turn a profit took their plants offline.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/02/19/climate/texas-storm-power-generation-charts.html
I tire of being anyones Google gofer for very long, so heres hoping this satisfies.
JHB
(37,159 posts)Officials for the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, which manages most of Texas grid, said the primary cause of the outages Tuesday appeared to be the states natural gas providers. Many are not designed to withstand such low temperatures on equipment or during production.
By some estimates, nearly half of the states natural gas production has screeched to a halt due to the extremely low temperatures, while freezing components at natural gas-fired power plants have forced some operators to shut down.
Texas is a gas state, said Michael Webber, an energy resources professor at the University of Texas at Austin. While he said all of Texas energy sources share blame for the power crisis at least one nuclear power plant has partially shut down, most notably the natural gas industry is producing significantly less power than normal.
***
Gathering lines freeze, and the wells get so cold that they cant produce, said Parker Fawcett, a natural gas analyst for S&P Global Platts. And pumps use electricity, so theyre not even able to lift that gas and liquid, because theres no power to produce.
***
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-weather-texas-energy-idUSKBN2AH1V2
Shermann
(7,413 posts)NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)If the initial pump lines are not heated, the valves freeze up and gas cannot be supplied. Normally residential natural gas is dried (desiccant beds for instance) to a dewpoint of -40 before it is distributed, so freezing is not an issue on the consumer end. But with such massive demand and production cut to a small fraction, many customers lost gas service.
efhmc
(14,725 posts)I was able to use my gas stove top by bypassing the igniters and using a match since the gas was still flowing. Probably could have done the same thing with the separate oven but I was not taking that chance.
Shermann
(7,413 posts)I have a ventless natural gas fireplace which will run during a power outage.
Really doesn't explain the long propane lines though.
MissB
(15,806 posts)Im in Oregon and have been without power since Sunday.
We use natural gas for heat, hot water and stovetop. Clearly the furnace doesnt work right now. But I have hot water and can manually light my stovetop to cook.
One can buy a generator that is hard plumbed to the natural gas line. Ill be shopping for one this summer after demand reduces a bit. I think Ill go with a kohler and size it to run the entire panel (whole house).
So, if the power ever goes out again, Ill have a generator ready to kick in using the same fuel Im currently using.
efhmc
(14,725 posts)NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)It installs just behind the meter and allows the generator to be plugged in using the 4 pin connector. This allows me to use a 5500 Watt portable generator. I can then bring on much of the house including the furnace.
efhmc
(14,725 posts)The tank is huge. Not sure of its capacity but the tank is located away from the house and we can turn on stoves and heaters by pressing an on switch normally inside the house.
Shermann
(7,413 posts)But is it not possible to get those large LP tanks refilled right now? What good does a 20 pound tank do in that case?
efhmc
(14,725 posts)I put in order to refill.
efhmc
(14,725 posts)but in town, I'd rather others who are in their homes needing heat be first in lines. Of course he and his wife need the heat.
BSdetect
(8,998 posts)Some are getting to the age limit now. I think it's about 8 years.
They do not last forever (legally).
We have a duel furl generator (12000 watts) running on gas with 120 gallon propane main tank (used for the kitchen stove mainly).
Keeping the generator running on gas is a pain as you need to buy extra gas. It smells and can be messy.
Solar panels supply enough electricity so that we have no bill for the full year.
We need all this power to run the well pump in order to fight fires if we have to.
Battery backup systems are great. We are waiting for 3 Tesla Powerwalls here. Enough to run for at least a week if the grid goes down.
Shermann
(7,413 posts)I have the one tank under my grill, which is a safe and convenient storage location. Adding a second is problematic. You could put in in a ventilated outdoor shed or something like that. The garage or basement is a big no-no. So I just have the one that I run dry and it is musical chairs as to when the power runs out and how much is left.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)A hydro-static test is performed to prove them still sound and then a new date is stamped on the ring. Look for the date codes.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Kerosene stores well. Without added stabilizer... and in relatively controlled environment (like a garage)... kerosene will keep well for five years. (Although, we've kept it on-hand for up to 7 years before needed it... and the old kerosene burned just as well and just as clean as fresh.)
Something like this can be purchased at Lowes or Amazon.
Throck
(2,520 posts)CentralMass
(15,265 posts)you do what you have to to survive. It comes down to using propane powered devices safely and how long the appliance can operate on the amount of propane in the tank. You (follow the mfg's usage) can use a propane campstove indoors for cooking under the right conditions. Like under a hood vent or in a well ventilated area with an open window.
Unless it is direct venting type I think that use propane heaters indoors can be deadly. A good size portable emergency propane powered generator would be a 5kW generator. A 20lb propane tank will power a 5k generator running at 50% load for about 8.8 hours. That would drop to 5.5 hours for a 7.5k generator running at 50%. (Generators have to be outside, inside is deadly)..
So if it's all you have or can get during and emergency it can make a huge difference.
Being able to cook a hot meal or make hot drinks is huge. In New England where we could lose power for 2 weeks or so in the dead of winter. I was lucky enough to be able to borrow a kind neighbors back up generator that ran on gasoline. I have some electrical back ground a d was able to connect it up to be able to selectively run things like the oiled fired forced hot water furnace and the refrigerator and some lights. Running the furnace for a few hours would warm the entire house and running the refrigerator to keep food from going bad. Since it was probably not going to get above freezing we could also put food in containers on the back deck. So I would run the ed furnace at night to warm the place up and after everyone showered etc and was ready for bed I would shut it down and wake up periodically to check on the kids and start the generator as needed. We also had a large coal stove on our raised hearth fireplace down stairs that producedl a lot of heat but with sub zero night time temps the rooms upstairs would get cold on that alone. In an emergency we could all sleep in the living room.
Oh and a very critical item that I forgot was running the well for water and be able to flush toilets..
Shermann
(7,413 posts)Is that what all these people are doing though? Connecting 20 pound propane tanks to portable indoor heaters?
womanofthehills
(8,702 posts)If you have a larger tank, you can get free propane delivery. My water heaters, stove and one heater run off propane. I have some small electric heaters I use when I need more heat. My whole south side is windows (passive solar) so I only use my propane on really cold nights or days without sun - rare in NM - except for this week with -0 temps. If you get a propane heater that doesn't vent - it won't kill you, but it's illegal in many states. Not something I would use in a bedroom without an open window. I have a direct vent propane heater made by Cozy. They are great because with a direct vent, no fumes enter the room. You don't need a large pipe with a direct vent heater - just a small circle cut through the wall - with a foot wide circle vent on the outside of your house. A person could install one of these heaters for emergencies with a 100 gallon propane tank.
phylny
(8,380 posts)The only thing we use propane for is to cook on our gas stove, as there are no natural gas lines here in our rural town. We are considering a propane-powered generator as well.
Shermann
(7,413 posts)I just mentions cooking and staying warm, without a lot of detail.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Normally I can use one of those to bring 6 gallons of wort to a boil in 20 minutes.
Ilsa
(61,694 posts)for very long periods, whereas gasoline degrades, beginning around three months.
GusBob
(7,286 posts)I have a lantern, stove and portable heater that run off propane
I use them for camping so I just keep 2 doz little propane bottles about