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PA_jen

(1,114 posts)
Mon Mar 1, 2021, 09:34 PM Mar 2021

Manchin & Sinema

This is probably more of a rant. A way to get this off my chest. I am sorry if it offends.

I am watching the two Senators and I serious wonder why the DNC or Schumer start playing hard ball. I've heard people say they vote more with us then against us but I don't see it. To me -especially with Manchin he is a egomaniac who couldn't hack it as a Republican and is only a Democratic for power. He might as well be a republican with the way he is trying our hands.

If I had control of the DNC I would haul them into a close door meeting. I would have before the meeting found a vetted possible Primary challengers, I would have done polling with their constituents about the topics like Min wage the 2 are fighting against and show them the polls showing that they are wrong in their stances. I would poll a question to their constituents as to if they would vote for Manchin/Sinema knowing they stop the $15.00 min wage.

I would lay all this information out and I would have a few Lincoln style ads ready to show them. I would basically say you have a choice work with us or prepare to lose your jobs.

We need our party to stand together and work for TRUE democratic candidates.

right now I feel the Senate isn't ours between these 2 and all the B.S. the QOP is doing.

37 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Manchin & Sinema (Original Post) PA_jen Mar 2021 OP
Bookmarking. n/t rzemanfl Mar 2021 #1
Cause being in the the minority sucks. dem4decades Mar 2021 #2
I don't know about Sinema but in Manchins WV 63% of West Virginians support raising the minimum wage Autumn Mar 2021 #3
Lose one of them and say hello to Majority Leader McConnell. Hoyt Mar 2021 #4
Manchin holds the keys to the majority leader's office. tritsofme Mar 2021 #5
the real test will come when the 11 usd (it wont be 15usd) is added to a Defence appropriation bill Celerity Mar 2021 #6
The people that vote for them don't care what the DNC or Schumer do or say JI7 Mar 2021 #7
+1 ChazII Mar 2021 #8
I've met Manchin, and I'll give your rant all the consideration it deserves... brooklynite Mar 2021 #9
a compromise is in order, 11/hr for WV and 15 for everyone else nt msongs Mar 2021 #10
Well, you keep him. I feel he is weakens the party. I feel a strong democrat can PA_jen Mar 2021 #12
I don't rely on "feelings"...I rely on facts and data brooklynite Mar 2021 #14
Manchin won re-election in 2018 by 3%/19,000 votes. Fiendish Thingy Mar 2021 #21
What about the fact he wants unemployment part of the bill lowered to $300 instead of $400 and wants PA_jen Mar 2021 #31
He weakens the party? Without him McConnell would be in charge...think about it...I would love to Demsrule86 Mar 2021 #20
Manchin rso Mar 2021 #11
okay but I see these 2 weakening the Democratic agenda and I worry we lose PA_jen Mar 2021 #13
Manchin rso Mar 2021 #15
There won't be a Democratic agenda without them. And if the left can't see that we need more Demsrule86 Mar 2021 #19
Sometime, some here may actually feel the full impact of the need for empedocles Mar 2021 #16
Have you considered that Manchin & Sinema might know their constituents much better than... Tarheel_Dem Mar 2021 #17
So they can screw people in PA? I know people that got laid off and didn't get PA_jen Mar 2021 #32
How do I know? Did I not just say that Manchin knows his constituents better than you or I? Tarheel_Dem Mar 2021 #35
And Manchin and possibly Sinema would become Republicans and Mcconnell would be back in charge. Demsrule86 Mar 2021 #18
What gives you that impression? You make the claim, a lot. Gore1FL Mar 2021 #23
Simena started out in politics as a very left Green. Blue_true Mar 2021 #28
Why not try the LBJ approach? PhylliPretzel Mar 2021 #22
It's not that Dem Leadership isn't trying hard enough tritsofme Mar 2021 #27
He had that leeway. The processes for handing out goodies was Blue_true Mar 2021 #29
Manchin's not stupid enough to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. meadowlander Mar 2021 #33
More than that... WarGamer Mar 2021 #24
Sinema should be primaried radius777 Mar 2021 #25
I am surprised by Simena. Blue_true Mar 2021 #30
I think she really is conservative now. radius777 Mar 2021 #36
Like I wrote. I believe that she is miscalculating. Blue_true Mar 2021 #37
We need to focus on picking up seats. gldstwmn Mar 2021 #26
Look people, these two think keeping their jobs is more important than making new laws and helping ZonkerHarris Mar 2021 #34

tritsofme

(17,632 posts)
5. Manchin holds the keys to the majority leader's office.
Mon Mar 1, 2021, 09:41 PM
Mar 2021

Leadership has precious little leverage here, Biden didn’t even win 30% in WV. We can try to convince him on certain things, but there isn’t realistically much more that can be done other than tolerating him, and work for a stronger majority.

Celerity

(44,588 posts)
6. the real test will come when the 11 usd (it wont be 15usd) is added to a Defence appropriation bill
Mon Mar 1, 2021, 09:41 PM
Mar 2021

(or another 'must pass' bill.)

Then it will come down to 2 things

Will enough Rethugs come over to support it in numbers large enough to overcome a filibuster., IF it is filibustered

Will Manchin and Sinema support it as well at that point? I think they will not support it IF it is 15 usd, and will support it at 11 usd.


As standalone wage increase bill has zero chance of overcoming a filibuster, even at 11 usd. No way 10 Rethugs bolt to invoke cloture.

JI7

(89,414 posts)
7. The people that vote for them don't care what the DNC or Schumer do or say
Mon Mar 1, 2021, 09:41 PM
Mar 2021

in fact it would probably help them to be seen as opposing them.

What needs to happen is the people in their state need to call on them to support the bills.

ChazII

(6,217 posts)
8. +1
Mon Mar 1, 2021, 09:49 PM
Mar 2021

When Sinema ran she stated in her ads that she would represent all Arizonan's. Before covid she would hold town halls maybe she is listening to her conservative constituents? When she became a senator she helped change Arizona from red to purple.

brooklynite

(95,676 posts)
9. I've met Manchin, and I'll give your rant all the consideration it deserves...
Mon Mar 1, 2021, 09:55 PM
Mar 2021

...none.

He's not a wannabe Republican. If he was, he could BE a Republican.

You can strut bravely about how you'd Primary him, but what type of "real Democrat" acceptable to you would be electable in the State of WV. Or perhaps you rather have a real Republican, and lose support for Schumer and the bulk of Democratic agenda as long as you can stand on your principles?

PA_jen

(1,114 posts)
12. Well, you keep him. I feel he is weakens the party. I feel a strong democrat can
Mon Mar 1, 2021, 10:17 PM
Mar 2021

win WV.

This is the same person who is refusing Tanden But voted for Sessions to be AG. You comfortable with that double standard that is fine have at it.

brooklynite

(95,676 posts)
14. I don't rely on "feelings"...I rely on facts and data
Mon Mar 1, 2021, 10:23 PM
Mar 2021

Despite being rejected in AZ and GA, Trump won WV with 68%.

The Republican Governor won with 63%

Republican Senator Capito won with 70%

Manchin wins because he's a know quantity and a former Governor from a more competitive time. A "real" Democrat isn't going to be factor.

Fiendish Thingy

(15,903 posts)
21. Manchin won re-election in 2018 by 3%/19,000 votes.
Mon Mar 1, 2021, 11:12 PM
Mar 2021

If he sabotages Biden’s agenda and Dems lose the house and likely the senate, his career is over in 2024.

Move On and Poor People’s Campaign are gearing up and organizing Manchin’s constituents to pressure him to make the right choices, and hold him accountable with severe political consequences if he doesn’t.

PA_jen

(1,114 posts)
31. What about the fact he wants unemployment part of the bill lowered to $300 instead of $400 and wants
Tue Mar 2, 2021, 04:12 AM
Mar 2021

To keep the 1400 out of more hands. I know people who could really use that full 1400 but under Manchin's latest demands they won't see the full 1400.

Demsrule86

(69,102 posts)
20. He weakens the party? Without him McConnell would be in charge...think about it...I would love to
Mon Mar 1, 2021, 11:10 PM
Mar 2021

I would love to see progressives being elected in red or purple states, but it unlikely to happen. A grass roots effort must be made to win hearts and minds at the local and state level. We are damned lucky have Manchin...you know this is Democratic Underground and Manchin is a Democrat...you really need to stop attacking him. His vote saved the ACA you know...he has always voted with us when it really mattered.

rso

(2,294 posts)
11. Manchin
Mon Mar 1, 2021, 10:12 PM
Mar 2021

Manchin is the best we can have from WV, considering that WV was the State where Donnie won by the largest margin. If we primary him and a more liberal democrat wins, a Republican will win the General Election. I’d rather have a democrat that votes with us 80% than a Republican who never does. We need to pick up a net of at least two Senate seats next year in order to bypass Manchin and Sinema and then eliminate the filibuster.

PA_jen

(1,114 posts)
13. okay but I see these 2 weakening the Democratic agenda and I worry we lose
Mon Mar 1, 2021, 10:19 PM
Mar 2021

both houses in 2022. That is my fear.

rso

(2,294 posts)
15. Manchin
Mon Mar 1, 2021, 10:27 PM
Mar 2021

We pass what we can pass via reconciliation and via executive orders, and we keep up a 24/7 media campaign reminding voters how republicans are blocking things that voters want.

Demsrule86

(69,102 posts)
19. There won't be a Democratic agenda without them. And if the left can't see that we need more
Mon Mar 1, 2021, 11:07 PM
Mar 2021

Democrats to get things passed then we will end up moving to the middle and winning that way...no choice really. The moderates took back the house and every Senator elected recently is a moderate...that is our reality.

empedocles

(15,751 posts)
16. Sometime, some here may actually feel the full impact of the need for
Mon Mar 1, 2021, 10:28 PM
Mar 2021

votes #49 and #50.

Attacks on them now do nothing positive to strengthen Dems now.

Manchin, Sinema, Cheney, Murkowski, are swaggering, ego driven folk, either. They are in stressful positions.

Tarheel_Dem

(31,299 posts)
17. Have you considered that Manchin & Sinema might know their constituents much better than...
Mon Mar 1, 2021, 11:03 PM
Mar 2021

any of us? Just a word of warning to those who feel they need to push these two....push too hard, and if either one of them switches parties, Mitch McConnell takes back the gavel, and all the committee chairmanships.

PA_jen

(1,114 posts)
32. So they can screw people in PA? I know people that got laid off and didn't get
Tue Mar 2, 2021, 04:19 AM
Mar 2021

Regular unemployment let alone the extra 600. Minchin is now trying to limit who gets the 1400 and wants the $400 dollars u employment lowered to 300.00. Seriously how the Fuck is it helping WV?

Tarheel_Dem

(31,299 posts)
35. How do I know? Did I not just say that Manchin knows his constituents better than you or I?
Tue Mar 2, 2021, 06:24 PM
Mar 2021

At the end of the day, people send folks to Congress to represent their interests. Joe Manchin was a very successful governor of WV, before they chose to send him to the US Senate. It would be great if Manchin were more progressive, but that's just not the makeup of WV. They still think coal is the future.

Gore1FL

(21,255 posts)
23. What gives you that impression? You make the claim, a lot.
Tue Mar 2, 2021, 12:32 AM
Mar 2021

Why do you think they would switch parties? Do you have links? Tommy Shaw's Crystal ball? Anything? Or is this just speculation?

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
28. Simena started out in politics as a very left Green.
Tue Mar 2, 2021, 01:40 AM
Mar 2021

She became a Democrat and rose to leadership of Democrats in the Arizona House. I don’t believe that she is conservative, maybe she knows the business environment in her state and understand whether smaller businesses can meet a $15 wage within 5 years. I don’t know much about her personal life, like whether she comes from a well off family that owns businesses, or whether she was a business owner herself.

I hate to give the prick credit, but Senator Hawley has been pushing for a wage just over $15/hr and I honestly believe has a better thought out methodology of how to achieve it, IMO.

PhylliPretzel

(141 posts)
22. Why not try the LBJ approach?
Tue Mar 2, 2021, 12:24 AM
Mar 2021

LBJ, both as Senate Majority Leader and President, would get votes by awarding cooperating senators with goodies for their states. Find out what Manchin, Sinema, Finestein, and other opposing the filibuster want, and give it to them in exchange for abolishing the filibuster.
Whatever was needed (a bridge repair, rural hospital wing, water treatment plant, etc.) would be a permanent improvement and a good use of government dollars.
It's a win-win situation. Without the filibuster, the Dems could accomplish their whole agenda and save our economy and democracy.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
29. He had that leeway. The processes for handing out goodies was
Tue Mar 2, 2021, 01:43 AM
Mar 2021

eliminated a few years back by republicans, and even some of them rue that move now. Giving or with-holding goodies was a way to keep party members inline during contentious votes.

meadowlander

(4,426 posts)
33. Manchin's not stupid enough to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.
Tue Mar 2, 2021, 04:29 AM
Mar 2021

Why bargain away the filibuster now for a measly water treatment plant when he can hold the Senate to ransom for whatever he wants for the next two years?

radius777

(3,635 posts)
25. Sinema should be primaried
Tue Mar 2, 2021, 12:41 AM
Mar 2021

as she's from a purple state that a better Dem could win, such as Rep. Ruben Gallego or SoS Katy Hobbs.

Manchin is much more difficult as it's a deep red state.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
30. I am surprised by Simena.
Tue Mar 2, 2021, 01:47 AM
Mar 2021

Her state is about where Nevada was before Democrats took a strong hold there. Nevada has a big Mormon population, like Arizona, but it got more Hispanic voters in a way that we are now seeing happening in Arizona. I get the sense that Simena is mid-calculating and I really don’t understand why.

radius777

(3,635 posts)
36. I think she really is conservative now.
Tue Mar 2, 2021, 11:14 PM
Mar 2021

Many whites (including white women) drifted rightward after 9-11 and then after Obama was elected.

I'm not from AZ but did follow her election out of curiosity. She ran almost as a center-right independent, without any visible indication in her ads of being a Dem.

To your other post above, Sinema did grow up working class and it was a selling point in her campaign. Which makes her opposition to raising the minimum wage and other conservative positions all the more disappointing.

A mainstream liberal Dem (ie one ideologically like Biden, such as Hobbs or Gallego as I mentioned above) can easily defeat Sinema in a primary, and would have a better chance in the general election than she would. She has no real appeal to any particular segment of the electorate, and being viewed as obstructionist when her state needs help is not desirable to voters.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
37. Like I wrote. I believe that she is miscalculating.
Tue Mar 2, 2021, 11:24 PM
Mar 2021

She seems intent on appealing to a segment of voters that she doesn’t need to win, while causing some that she did and will need to win to have second doubts. I contributed to her campaign, but if Reuben Gallego or Katie Hobbs take her on in a primary, they will get my financial support. Simena is badly miscalculating. She doesn’t need to be a fiery progressive, but the voters that elected her didn’t expect her to act like the republican that she defeated.

I believe that she started out as a Green, but became a Democrat. Her legislative record in Arizona was pretty left in the Arizona House. I believe that she was the Minority Leader for a while and really went after republicans.

ZonkerHarris

(24,476 posts)
34. Look people, these two think keeping their jobs is more important than making new laws and helping
Tue Mar 2, 2021, 04:30 AM
Mar 2021

citizens during a crisis.
Putting the country on a better path of fairness, justice and growth isn't their goal here.
Especially if it costs them personally.
Keeping their fancy Senate job is always priority #1.
Did you expect more of them?
Why would you?

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