Manchin and Sinema are not centrist.

[BlueLucy]

I'm seeing a lot of dissing on centrist and people spiking the football of sorts by saying, "aha see! Centrist are doing XYZ...

Hillary who nearly 30 years ago worked her butt off for universal healthcare, used her platform to help get CHIP passed is a centrist. Btw, she also had a plan for basic income and said she thought it should look something like what Alaska has in her 2016 platform.

Joe Biden is a centrist, Kamala Harris, Barack Obama, and so on...

Manchin is to the right of centrist and not quite yet a republican. That is not where most centrist are at.

[mucifer]

1. Seems to me President Biden is to the left of President Obama so far.

[yellowdogintexas]

36. I kept telling the complainers that President Biden was going to be a big surprise

as he was far more liberal than it appeared.

[Nixie]

2. Amen. Manchin seems to be exploiting his niche power

just like another non-Democrat did, but it was fine for the other guy.

[BlueLucy]

3. Exactly! nt

[TwilightZone]

4. Manchin is a moderate. Sinema is actually left of center.

Manchin:



Sinema:



Sources:

https://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Joe_Manchin_III.htm

https://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Kyrsten_Sinema.htm

[LizBeth]

12. Interesting. Thanks for these. Kinda goes with my post.

[Irish_Dem]

48. Sinema did not seem to act left of center in the past couple of weeks.

I am looking at her behavior, not what she claims.

[Bonn1997]

66. Center among US politicians isn't the same as moderate. See post #63.

[grantcart]

70. I knocked on hundreds of doors for Sinema

She is not a liberal and will go out of her way to shove it in your face.

Yes she will finally vote on the left but you have to go Collins like concerns and idiotic posturing before doing the right thing. She made a big thing about struggling over voting guilty for Trump's impeachment.

She is a pain but if that is what it takes to beat McSally or Kelly Ward then I am all in

Personally i

[grantcart]

71. I knocked on hundreds of doors for Sinema

She is not a liberal and will go out of her way to shove it in your face.

Yes she will finally vote on the left but you have to go Collins like concerns and idiotic posturing before doing the right thing. She made a big thing about struggling over voting guilty for Trump's impeachment.

She is a pain but if that is what it takes to beat McSally or Kelly Ward then I am all in

Personally I think she has a screw loose.

[TheBlackAdder]

78. That graphing system needs a rework, because Trump was populist, Libertarians self-affecting.

Last edited Mon Mar 8, 2021, 12:18 AM - Edit history (1)

.

Looking at that, it implies that Liberals cannot have strong economic interests either, and its spectrum touches populists, moderates and Libertarians.

It's looks good on paper, but fails so many political science litmus tests, using basic challenges.


Just food for thought (Note who is sitting next to her.). . .

Link to tweet

.

[Celerity]

97. those charts (that specific site) are useless, I have seen them trotted out so often, they are way

off on so many pols. That site is literally the worst ideologically rating site for US politics I have ever seen.

The data is also far too often woefully out of date (Sinema, for instance, is FAR to the right now from where she started out)

Sinema almost halfway to farthest left corner INSIDE the farthest left sector is a joke, even using the incredibly, artificially, skewed to the right US general scale (By general scale I mean NOT just this site, I mean overall perceptions atm after years of rightward sliding of the centre. Even more skewed when compared to most all of the advanced Western nations)

[lapucelle]

5. Secretary Clinton is a hard core liberal.

Hillary Clinton is a Hard-Core Liberal.

https://www.ontheissues.org/Hillary_Clinton.htm
https://bit.ly/3qmWhfZ

[betsuni]

65. Thank you. A lot of effort went into convincing people she wasn't progressive.

[lapucelle]

6. Joe Biden...

Joe Biden is a Hard-Core Liberal

https://bit.ly/3tatDkn

[BlueLucy]

18. Unfortunately facts are not what some people perceive.

According to their perception, Hillary is a centrist. Some even called her a republican lite.

[lapucelle]

23. Voters who "perceive" Hillary Clinton, Barak Obama, Joe Biden, and Kamala Harris as "centrist" and

Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema as "right of center" should probably do a little research into the actual records of the folks in question.

[Hoyt]

7. Wherever we put them, beats having MAJORITY Leader McConnell.

[NurseJackie]

11. Bingo!

Looking at those charts, it makes it clear to me how someone can be so FAR to the left that even the "CENTER" of the chart looks like the extreme-RW. And the opposite is true also: someone on the FAR right would see someone like Manchin as being a "crazy liberal". --- Isn't it strange how it is that being on the EITHER extreme side can have such a warping effect how ordinary people in the middle are perceived and judged.

Wherever we put them, beats having MAJORITY Leader McConnell.

Bingo! I do believe that people are making a mistake and putting their pride and vanity ahead of logic and reason... especially those who want to punish Manchin, or kneecap him, or "drive him out of the party". What a colossal mistake that would be! All for the sake of temporary revenge, it seems that there are some who are willing to sacrifice our tenuous 50/50 "majority" and hand everything back to McConnell.

That's just crazy-talk. All I'm trying to say is that I think we all have an obligation to bring back to reality anyone who thinks in such a way, or anyone who advocates such a thing.

[NurseJackie]

8. It's an obsession... quite the compulsion for many on the far left who hate him.

I'm seeing a lot of dissing on centrist and people spiking the football of sorts by saying, "aha see! Centrist are doing XYZ...

It's an obsession... quite the compulsion for many on the far left who hate him. I have observed the same things you've described, and honestly, I do not see how this type of behavior or finger pointing accomplishes anything worthwhile.

Manchin is to the right of centrist and not quite yet a republican. That is not where most centrist are at.

Another correct and astute observation. I can tell you that if I were "plotted" on the same chart that measures the ideologies of politicians, I'd be near the center... and probably be closer to Manchin than to someone like Bernie.

[bigtree]

14. the 'far left' is a derogative phrase used to denigrate people disagreed with

...by those who fling the label around.

'Moderate', and centrist,' on the other hand, are labels the pols themselves apply to legislation and their politics.

[NurseJackie]

16. It's all relative. What euphemism would you prefer?

the 'far left' is a derogative phrase used to denigrate people disagreed with

No it's not. I'm right here in the center. Someone to the far left of me is far left. Someone to the far right of me is far right.

It's all relative. What euphemism would you prefer?

[bigtree]

20. what these folks identify themselves as, of course

...which, the last time I checked, was 'progressive' or liberal.

[NurseJackie]

24. That lacks illustrative clarity and precision with regard to making contrasts and comparisons...

... intentionally ambiguous definitions and hypersensitivity over perfectly valid and legitimate words can often lead to confusion in perfectly ordinary conversations that involve discussing the differences of what motivates people to do and say and behave in certain ways. That's all I'm trying to say.

[bigtree]

26. you're just insulting people you disagree with

...calling it "illustrative clarity and precision with regard to making contrasts and comparisons" is just a weak excuse.

[NurseJackie]

29. No it's not.

is just a weak excuse.

No it's not. It's nothing of the sort. It's the reality of, and the value of, being precise with the use of language. Without being able to use perfectly valid words to contrast and compare the degrees and differences of where people are on a political spectrum (or chart), the conversation will go nowhere. Without clear communication, everyone just regresses and withdraws. How can we begin to hope to find common ground when we can't even begin to honestly discuss and describe our actual differences. Rest assured that hypersensitivity and efforts to muzzle, stifle or otherwise shut-down the conversation are counterproductive and do not lead to understanding or cooperation. It' just creates division and muddies what could otherwise be a reasonable and rational discussion.

[bigtree]

30. you're trying to pigeonhole people into your own invented political box

...that works in your own sphere of influence, but it just grates and divides everywhere else.

[NurseJackie]

31. Lulz.

you're trying to pigeonhole people into your own invented political box

No I'm not.

[Celerity]

98. +10000

[Demsrule86]

50. A rose by any other name...

[George II]

54. How about all of us just considering ourselves Democrats?

[George II]

32. If "far left" is deemed to be offensive, then "moderate" or "centrist" are offensive, too....

How about using the term "mainstream" inasmuch as the majority of ALL Democrats wind up being "moderate" or "centrist".

By the way, some on the "far left" call themselves "far left".

[NurseJackie]

34. That's true.

By the way, some on the "far left" call themselves "far left".

That's true. But I've never heard any mainstream Democrat call themselves a "DINO" or a "Coastal Elite".

[betsuni]

69. Or a "corporate Democrat."

[sheshe2]

72. This.

Hear that one a lot. Give me a few moments and I will remember who said it.

[betsuni]

96. Heh.

[NurseJackie]

77. Ugh!

That one, too.

[betsuni]

84. Ridiculous: Us (grassroots, pure) vs Them (corporate, corrupt).

[Sympthsical]

42. When was the last time AOC self-described as "far left"?

She runs as progressive. Biden ran as a moderate. Others run as a centrist.

Far left is anyone to the left of conservative Democrats who hate progressives and need to let everyone know about it.

Repeatedly.

[George II]

45. Who other than you mentioned her? And who are these "conservative Democrats who hate progressives"?

[BlueLucy]

68. I don't know any conservative democrats.

Who are you talking about?

[ahoysrcsm]

87. AOC self-describes as a Democratic Socialist.

https://www.businessinsider.com/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-explains-what-democratic-socialism-means-2019-3

[LetMyPeopleVote]

91. I disagree with your argument

I and others are working to turn Texas blue. Far left policies killed a number of candidates in Texas last cycle including the rather dumb concept of "defund the police." While you may not like this term, I have seen it used by GOP candidates against good Democrats in the real world.

[bigtree]

92. the irony escapes you

...it's being used here, and by you, against 'good Democrats.'

The disconnect in your response is stunning.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

94. Do you understand that you are wrong in your anaylsis

I am not being ironic in strongly disagreeing with your claims and attempts at analysis. You are wrong and many real democcrats lost in 2020 due to being attacked as socialists and far left. I saw a good number of ads using the ignorant "defund the police" policy to great effect.

The fact that you do not understand the facts here is sad

[lapucelle]

15. It's a shame that the word "centrist" has become a pejorative.

Similarly, it's remarkable that some are labelled "centrist" or "Republican light" based on inaccurate "standard narratives" rather than on actual voting records.

[NurseJackie]

17. You forgot "Conservadems" ... I see that one a lot.

Ridiculous, isn't it?

[lapucelle]

21. For contrast, here are Tom Cotton and Mitch McConnell...based on their voting records.

Tom Cotton is a Hard-Core Conservative


Tom Cotton is a Hard-Core Conservative

[Irish_Dem]

49. They are not conservative, they are bullies and crooks.

They just use the GOP flag for cover.

[betsuni]

61. I often see people with about the same voting records, yet one is progressive, the other centrist

or moderate or Republican lite. The rules of why are mysterious! Just because.

[Demsrule86]

43. When the far left can get elected in WVA or Arizona then I will listen until then...we need a

majority. Power must be earned at the ballot box.

[NurseJackie]

52. Well, there you go again!

Being all reasonable, rational, realistic, intelligent and stuff.

I suppose it's true that "everyone wants what they want and they want it RIGHT NOW" ... but some of us live in the real world and we are willing to do the most we can with what we have, and continue to aim high and plan ahead and work hard (and work smart) for where we want to eventually be.

Power must be earned at the ballot box.

Amen!

I think we can get there. If we work hard to ADD new Democrats to the Senate (ie: by replacing REPUBLICANS... not by primarying Democrats.) then Manchin will be irrelevant.

[lapucelle]

9. Kamala Harris...

Kamala Harris is a Hard-Core Liberal

https://www.ontheissues.org/Kamala_Harris.htm
https://bit.ly/3qnRYBd

[LizBeth]

10. Harris is more progressive than Sanders. HRC is much more left than Biden and Obama. And

as someone pointed out Biden certainly appears way more left than he ever let on. I think it is the times and what is allowed today, was never allowed during Obama time. But I agree. Those two are not really centralists. Not sure what they are but using the Democratic title allows us to be in majority and get that bill rammed thru.

[BlueLucy]

22. Yes but that is not what some on the left perceive.

We've been calling Biden, Obama, Harris centrist even though they are left of center. What I am really trying to say is Joe Manchin is not one of us. Don't put him off on us, lol.

[LizBeth]

33. I am not going to pretend their lack of fact is a reality. I know there are far left with an

incorrect perspective and it does not matter how often the facts or correct info is provided for them, they refuse the information because it does not serve them. I am not going to pretend and suppose on incorrect information. Then gaslighting wins.

[Demsrule86]

44. That is what I told folks during the primary. Biden was more left than Pres. Obama.

[pnwmom]

55. I don't know what your definition is, but Manchin is definitely centrist -- in the middle.

Progressive Punch says he votes with us overall 62% of the time, which ranks him as #50 in the Senate. Hard to be much more in the middle than that.

https://progressivepunch.org/scores.htm?house=senate

[LizBeth]

62. Isn't that interesting. Thanks for the numbers.

[DTomlinson]

59. "Harris is more progressive than Sanders." ?

[LizBeth]

60. 2016, 2017, 2019 I think. Sanders ranked 11th. 10 other Democratic Leaders ranked more progressive.

[DTomlinson]

64. What exactly was the basis for this ranking, out of curiosity? Sanders is a democratic socialist.

Not sure how you can get more left-wing within American politics than that. Unless you're defining "progressive" and "left-wing" differently.

Maybe there is something to these rankings if they're based on congressional roll call votes, but I'd just note that Sanders will disagree with Democrats from the Left...not remotely for the same reasons (or unreasons) Republicans disagree. Just something to keep in mind...

[LizBeth]

67. You gotta educate yourself. The info is out there. I did the reading. I am not going to go out

and do the research for you, though.

[DTomlinson]

79. OK, so you refuse to back up your assertions with sources. Got it.

[DTomlinson]

83. I asked for a source, you refused. I'm not the who lacks interest here.

Have a good day.

[BlueLucy]

73. They base it on voting records

How they vote and legislation they have introduced. The problem is people perceive politicians ideology any way they want or whatever feels right to them. Harris has ranked more progressive than Sanders but people repeatedly say Sanders is the most because that is what they want to believe.

[lapucelle]

76. Progressive Punch

https://progressivepunch.org/scores.htm?house=senate

[DTomlinson]

80. Thanks.

[lapucelle]

89. You can look up the voting records of individual representatives and senators here.

https://progressivepunch.org/

[Johnny2X2X]

13. They just voted for the most progressive piece of legislation in generations.

And yet they just voted for the most progressive piece of legislation in decades.

[KentuckyWoman]

19. You are correct. Movement to the left doesn't not mean "leftist".

A centrist who wants to balance the needs of rich and poor, corporate and public etc, is going to clearly see that pendulum is way too far on the rich, corporate side. We need to be pushing to move it back to the middle - meaning toward the left.


And we have a LONG way to go leftward before we hit middle.

[Hortensis]

25. No, Hillary is not "centrist." She's MODERATE LIBERAL, well left of center.

Centrist is Kool-Aid dishonest and Kool-Aid slur. Here's a govtrack.us graph showing HRC's ideological and leadership rating while U.S. senator (she's the purple dot in the upper middle of the left):

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/hillary_clinton/300022

But honest Democrats know her from her very liberal and very ambitiously progressive platform also.

Btw, there's a deceitful effort by deceivers to portray the relatively few people on the IL-liberal left as "liberal" and/or "progressive," setting the stage to portray everyone else (80 million 2020 voters!) as progressively less so, until most liberals are misidentified as ideologically "centrist" or "moderates," neither good liberal fish nor conservative fowl.

A simple way to identify IL-liberal left activists is by behaviors:

* They actively oppose (not just disagree with) those 80 million liberal progressive voters,

* even over and above Republicans (this is a strong identifier, who are they constantly acting against?),

* even to the point of being willing to steal elections to win (most are anti-democratic because they're both too radically righteous to properly evaluate what's right and wrong and too few to win elections)

* even to the point of throwing progressivism to the Republican wolves while trying to defeat Democrats.

* If someone claims to be more liberal than Democrats but behavior sometimes makes you think of trumpists, ("Lock her up!" "Democrats are corrupt corporatists!" "We're going to primary vulnerable Democratic senators.&quot think the IL-liberal left.

[betsuni]

74. Thank you.

[bigtree]

27. interesting to me is how their phrasing seeks to define them apart from other Democrats

...'centrist' and 'moderate' suggesting that other viewpoints within the party are outside of a mainstream of opinion, and not just arbitrary disagreement or different perspective on some issues.

Their political stance is inherently confrontational, divisive, and exclusive.

I'd also note that 'progressive' and 'liberal' are aspirational identifications against the republican, conservative opposition, not expressions against their own party, like self-identified moderates and centrists posturing against Democrats - telling us we can't have this or that, or need to accept less than we deserve or should expect from a body which regulary votes itself raises without hesitation, or never lacks in defending their own privilege.

[Kaleva]

28. The more extreme one is, the more extreme others seem to be.

If one is on the far fringe and uses themselve as a reference point, everyone else appears to be far away.

I would agree that Biden, Harris, Pelosi, Schumer, Obama, and Hillary are part of the center of our party as that's where the majority of our party members, the base, are.

[George II]

35. The most important thing about both Sinema and Manchin is that they're DEMOCRATS!

[dianaredwing]

39. Thank you

That was getting a little bizarre. Why is it necessary to point score every activity every democrat makes? Naturally, they are individuals with individual constituencies that sometimes have differing needs and opinions. There will be controversy. That is why we have cooperation and mediation. That is what makes democrats and republicans fundamentally different. Democrats are willing to cooperate with those who do not think EXACTLY as they wish them to. Republicans will NEVER cooperate.

[andym]

37. Centrist has at least two meanings based on the center of what

If the center of the Democratic party, Manchin and Simena are not there, but if the center of the nation, then they are probably near there.

[mvd]

38. Correct IMO if you look at it like this

Sanders, Warren, AOC, etc. - progressive
Biden, Harris - left of center
Obama, Hillary - moderate
Manchin, Sinema - slightly right of center
Romney, Collins, Murkowski - right of center
Most of the other Repukes - GQP, extreme right

At least that is what the definitions should be IMO. The spectrum has been skewed by the Repukes.

[BlueLucy]

58. That is exactly how I see it.

Thank you for that. It makes a lot of sense to me. Although some progressives are not so much progressive when it comes to social issues.

[pnwmom]

40. Progressive Punch ranks Manchin overall at #50 in the Senate, voting with us 62% of the time.

That makes him a centrist. The next most moderate Republican, Susan Collins, only 34%. Not even close.

https://progressivepunch.org/scores.htm?house=senate

[Demsrule86]

46. +1000 I didn't know that...very interesting.

[jorgevlorgan]

41. At this point, I'm willing to call Biden a bold progressive.

He is not compromising between the mainstream qop (basically terrorists) and the reasonable pragmatic goals that are needed. Sinema and Manchin, however....

[Demsrule86]

47. They voted for the Covid bill exactly what have they done wrong...the minimum wage? It

can't be done in reconciliation...get over it. What do you suppose we would get if McConnell was in charge?

[jorgevlorgan]

51. I'm not "getting over" anything as long as millions of people are

Last edited Sun Mar 7, 2021, 05:14 PM - Edit history (1)

Living in poverty and on the verge of starving. They (and the six others voting with the qop) were wrong. Get over it. But if you are actually saying 42 Dems were wrong, that is something worth discussing.

[BlueLucy]

57. I think it would be a lot easier and even likely

to be able to bypass that rule with VP Kamala Harris's help id we had Manchin and Sinema on board.

[Iggo]

53. They're Manchinist and Sinematic.

I’m completely unsurprised by Manchin, as absolutely everyone else here should be.

I have to admit, Sinema caught me by surprise. Though perhaps she wouldn’t have if I’d been paying attention to her. Which I definitely was not.

[LeftInTX]

56. Manchin and Sinema weren't the only ones who voted against the $15 minimum wage

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/05/democrats-15-minimum-wage-hike-473875


Democratic Sens. Joe Manchin of West Virginia, Jon Tester of Montana, Jeanne Shaheen of New Hampshire, Kyrsten Sinema of Arizona and Maggie Hassan of New Hampshire voted against proceeding, though the tally remains open. So did two close Biden allies, Chris Coons and Tom Carper of Delaware. Sen. Angus King (I-Maine), who caucuses with the Senate Democrats, also opposed it.

[Bonn1997]

63. They are the mid point between a party of mostly sociopathic politicians and a party of moderates

[pnwmom]

75. They are in the middle of two parties who are largely skewed to the left and the right. nt

[BGBD]

82. Manchin and Sinema

Just voted for one of the most progressive bills of the past 50 years.

A couple years ago Manchin votes to uphold ACA.

He voted twice to convict Trump.

Almost a republican?

I wish I lived in a world where the debate for minimum wage was if it should be $12 or $15 an hour. Republicans want to eliminate minimum wage, not increase it to $12.

[Mr.Bill]

85. I'll just say at times they both vote

as if they represent no one but themselves. But that's true of a lot of politicians.

[betsuni]

88. Hillary explaining her "Alaska for America" idea:

Before she ran for president she'd read Peter Barnes' "With Liberty and Dividends for All: How to Save Our Middle Class When Jobs Don't Pay Enough" and his idea of a fund using revenue from shared national resources to pay a dividend to every citizen, like how the Alaska Permanent Fund distributes the state's oil royalties every year.

"Shared national resources include oil and gas extracted form public lands and the public airwaves used by broadcasters and mobile phone companies, but that gets you only so far. If you view the nation's financial system as a shared resource, then you can start raising real money from things like a financial transition tax. Same with the air we breathe and carbon pricing. Once you capitalize the fund, you can provide every American with a modest basic income every year. Besides cash in people's pockets, it would also be a way of making every American feel more connected to our country and to one another -- part of something bigger than ourselves. ... We would call it 'Alaska for America.' Unfortunately, we couldn't make the numbers work. To provide a meaningful dividend each year to every citizen, you'd have to raise enormous sums of money, and that would either mean a lot of new taxes or cannibalizing other important programs."

Then she says some Republicans had proposed a nationwide carbon dividend program that would tax fossil fuel use, but couldn't make the numbers work on that one either.

Someone will eventually figure out a way to make it work. But I guess it can't be progressive if Hillary wanted to do it. And if anything's a Republican idea, that's out too -- to this day people still whine about the ACA supposedly being a Republican idea -- how many times did the Republicans try to repeal it? Progress means getting things done to help people, not labels or whose idea it was or slogans.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

90. Joe Manchin is literally defying gravity, and is as "blue" as anything Dems will get from West Virg

Last edited Mon Jun 7, 2021, 01:18 AM - Edit history (2)

Link to tweet

[scipan]

93. This is silly.

Of course Bernie is farther left than the bulk of Dems.

Glad ppl are trying to capture the mantle of "progressive".

I am a democrat who agrees with virtually everything Bernie is for.

Especially when he talks about mega corporations.

[radius777]

95. +1. Their worldview is fundamentally conservative.

For Manchin to nitpick about the unemployment assistance amount/duration, the eligibility for the stimulus checks etc during a national crisis is a conservative mindset that is focused on what the middle class or poor are 'getting away with' rather than looking at what the rich/one percent (where the true money is, they did great during the pandemic) are doing. Sinema also with her arrogant thumbs down, applauding Trump's tax cuts, etc.

The left/right graphs and other 'statistics' don't really capture the totality of a politican, as alot of being a politician is what one projects on the cultural stage via their words and actions. Manchin and Sinema clearly project a conservative ethos and seem to disdain even mainstream liberals (Sinema in her campaign said she would not support Schumer as leader, and also threw shade on Pelosi). I have zero tolerance for this as it only helps to further the 'scary liberals' Fox news narrative.

We're stuck with Manchin as WV is too red, but Sinema is from purple AZ (that Biden and Kelly won) and should be primaried with a better Dem.