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Wed Apr 28, 2021, 01:10 AM

Carville says we're too woke

What do you think?

I called James Carville hoping to get his thoughts on President Joe Biden’s first 100 days in office.
He obliged — then, one question in, brushed aside the exercise to talk instead about why the Democrats might be poised to squander their political advantage against a damaged GOP.
His failure to cooperate may have been for the best since the first 100 days ritual can sometimes lead to dull, dutiful analysis. What Carville offered up instead was a blunt critique of his own party even after a successful 2020 election cycle — a sequel of sorts to his fulminations during last year’s Democratic primaries. The longtime Democratic strategist is mostly pleased with Biden, but it’s where much of the party seems to be going that has him worried.
“Wokeness is a problem,” he told me, “and we all know it.” According to Carville, Democrats are in power for now, but they also only narrowly defeated Donald Trump, “a world-historical buffoon,” and they lost congressional seats and failed to pick up state legislatures. The reason is simple: They’ve got a “messaging problem.”

More at link:

https://apple.news/Au2pEX_1fSXmPfGWsF6quEg

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Arrow 101 replies Author Time Post
Reply Carville says we're too woke (Original post)
pattyloutwo Apr 2021 OP
SergeStorms Apr 2021 #1
LetMyPeopleVote Apr 2021 #2
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #6
LetMyPeopleVote Apr 2021 #9
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #12
LetMyPeopleVote Apr 2021 #17
ck4829 Apr 2021 #21
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #46
Hortensis Apr 2021 #97
ck4829 Apr 2021 #27
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #42
George II Apr 2021 #65
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #69
George II Apr 2021 #70
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #73
George II Apr 2021 #76
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #78
LetMyPeopleVote Apr 2021 #83
Dorian Gray Apr 2021 #31
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #47
Dorian Gray Apr 2021 #91
Me. Apr 2021 #68
Dorian Gray Apr 2021 #92
LetMyPeopleVote Apr 2021 #89
bluestarone Apr 2021 #67
ChrisF1961 Apr 2021 #25
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #48
ChrisF1961 Apr 2021 #50
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #51
ChrisF1961 Apr 2021 #53
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #54
LetMyPeopleVote Apr 2021 #58
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #60
LetMyPeopleVote Apr 2021 #74
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #63
LetMyPeopleVote Apr 2021 #72
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #75
LetMyPeopleVote Apr 2021 #77
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #79
LetMyPeopleVote Apr 2021 #80
LetMyPeopleVote Apr 2021 #81
LanternWaste Apr 2021 #99
LetMyPeopleVote May 2021 #101
LetMyPeopleVote Apr 2021 #56
ChrisF1961 Apr 2021 #61
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #66
Silent3 Apr 2021 #59
ChrisF1961 Apr 2021 #64
Duppers Apr 2021 #28
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #49
Dorian Gray Apr 2021 #30
Hawker123 Apr 2021 #36
Owl Apr 2021 #93
Cha Apr 2021 #95
ck4829 Apr 2021 #3
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #7
Dan Apr 2021 #10
LetMyPeopleVote Apr 2021 #13
ck4829 Apr 2021 #18
Hugh_Lebowski Apr 2021 #15
Caliman73 Apr 2021 #84
kcr Apr 2021 #98
msongs Apr 2021 #4
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #8
fescuerescue Apr 2021 #88
PurgedVoter Apr 2021 #5
Dan Apr 2021 #11
LetMyPeopleVote Apr 2021 #14
betsuni Apr 2021 #22
PurgedVoter Apr 2021 #29
StarfishSaver Apr 2021 #41
honest.abe Apr 2021 #43
StarfishSaver Apr 2021 #44
Caliman73 Apr 2021 #86
StarfishSaver Apr 2021 #40
Cha Apr 2021 #96
ancianita Apr 2021 #35
KG Apr 2021 #38
Silent3 Apr 2021 #62
Hugh_Lebowski Apr 2021 #16
JI7 Apr 2021 #19
Hawker123 Apr 2021 #37
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #52
LetMyPeopleVote Apr 2021 #57
RANDYWILDMAN Apr 2021 #20
Corgigal Apr 2021 #23
Celerity Apr 2021 #24
tonedevil Apr 2021 #26
CentralMass Apr 2021 #32
ancianita Apr 2021 #33
eShirl Apr 2021 #34
betsuni Apr 2021 #39
JHB Apr 2021 #45
LetMyPeopleVote Apr 2021 #55
Mysterian Apr 2021 #71
BoringUsername Apr 2021 #82
JHB Apr 2021 #87
BannonsLiver Apr 2021 #85
maxsolomon Apr 2021 #90
CrispyQ Apr 2021 #94
Treefrog Apr 2021 #100

Response to pattyloutwo (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 01:30 AM

1. Just trying to counter QOP lies...

is a full time job. When 35+ percent of the electorate live inside an alternative reality bubble it's the height of folly trying to reach them. That leaves Independents, who seem extremely confused about what's really going on in this country.
The problem is, and has been, social media. As long as Facebook (particularly Facebook) and Twitter are going to allow the QOP and foreign enemies to manipulate their platforms there is no way to change the "messaging problem". And when you have the multiple propaganda Wurlitzers, OAN and FOX, echoing the "BIG LIES" of every QOP Congress-critter, the problem is magnified exponentially.
I wish Carville would offer some suggestions as to how we combat the "messaging problem" he says we over-woke Democrats have.

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Response to pattyloutwo (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 01:39 AM

2. The Defund the Police stupidity costs Democrats a number of seats that we should have won

I agree with Carville

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #2)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:11 AM

6. Blaming bad campaigning on a slogan doesn't help, having a messaging infrastructure that gets

... the truth around and sticks to kGQP will though.

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #6)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:19 AM

9. You are wrong

The facts showed that we lost a number of races due to this moronic slogan/plan in the real world. I heard GOP ads using this moronic slogans and the GOP won the races in which this slogan was used.

Read Carville’s article

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #9)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:26 AM

12. Yeah, that's bad campaigning seeing few if any dems were running on it and it wasn't part of dem...

... platform.

The next slogan will be "dems hate meat" and if we respond the same anemic way to DTP then expect similar results.

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #12)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:35 AM

17. The progressive wing declared that this was the platform and the GOP used this

We lost seats in races where the Democratic candidate was against this moronic policy. The GOP Candidate just runs ads with members of the progressive wing stating that this was the policy of the party and these ads worked. I saw these ads being used in the real world

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #17)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:50 AM

21. Sounds to me like those particular candidates ran some awful campaigns IMHO

Why did they think victory was that assured that they let Republicans say whatever they wanted and didn't fight back? That they let them frame the debates? No... not just the debates, but the very positions they held?

Take what happened with Lois Frankel's district, complete psycho Laura Loomer ran against her, now Frankel defeated Loomer soundly, but Frankel took her campaign very seriously, she acted like Loomer had a chance even though she did not.

Something tells me those candidates that lost races did not fight like Rep. Lois Frankel.

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #17)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 07:53 AM

46. Disagree, a couple of people isn't "the progressive wing" and the 04JohnKerry NON response to a

... slogan few to no one was running on hurt these campaigns a lot more than the relatively popular to republican progressive ideals.

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #46)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 05:28 PM

97. Uponit, everything that sounds bad for us is amped up big time by Russia

AND RW agents in our media here. There are plenty on the anti-Democratic left who not only know that but COUNT on mainstream Democrats being smeared with extremist nonsense.

Let's not pretend those who know that full well and do are innocent, because they're not, or that those few who yell sincerely (!) for eliminating community police services are not extremist wingers as willfully (or involuntarily) dysfunctional in their way as the trumpists are in theirs, because they are.

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #12)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 03:30 AM

27. Exactly. It is the definition of bad campaigning.

If you let Republicans frame the debate, frame the issues, and run circles around you telling people what positions you have; then you are... Not. Going. To. Win.

Never assume victory is assured.

Yes, there was Trump fatigue, there was anti-Trump sentiment, but don't assume you can just ride the coattails of that fatigue to victory. Is that what these Democrats thought they could do? Critical error on their part.

And on the other hand: Always assume the crackpot, the conspiracy theorist, the nutjob, the person indicted a couple months before the election can still win. That is today's GOP. In fact, that should have been the lesson from 2016, when the candidate everyone said was the craziest and the one everyone laughed at the idea of him winning the nomination indeed went on to win the nomination.

When the next slogans do come out as you say, we will have candidates who will sound all mealy-mouthed and effete... "I... don't... know... I... don't... really... support... things... like... that... I... guess... and... I... do... support... eating... meat... I... will... eat... a cheeseburger right now... if it will make you happy though..."

Prediction 1: They're going to lose if they make it to general elections

Prediction 2: The left will be blamed for their losses

But I'm going to say right here and right now that it would be psychologically and spiritually good for them as individuals if they did lose. People like Marjorie Taylor Greene, Jim Jordan, Ted Cruz, Josh Hawley, Lauren Boebert, and any media figures sympathetic to them would eat them alive. God, it would just be brutal.

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Response to ck4829 (Reply #27)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 07:39 AM

42. +1, humans in general don't like melee mouth and lack of conviction

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #12)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 10:51 AM

65. Unfortunately some who WEREN'T the candidates who lost used that slogan and cost others....

....their elections.

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Response to George II (Reply #65)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 10:54 AM

69. That's still bad campaigning and we should not blame bad campaigning on a slogan. Bottom line

... if we're on the primary attack with a consistent message of popular to republican issues we're not losing.

When we're sitting back and not responding in kind to ascribed slogans we lose every time.

There's not a lot of ways around DTP issue

1. It was a slogan from protest and not part of democratic platform
2. Few to no one ran on it or even repeated it but it was ascribed to democrats because of bad campaign response (see 04JohnKerry)
3. Any time democrats 04JohnKerry an issue we lose and is a tell we're not on attack enough

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #69)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 10:57 AM

70. The "bad campaigning" is being done hundreds or thousands of miles from the candidates...

...who are being attacked by slogans from those far away.

I see you talked about Max Rose. He was being attacked by republicans for things some of his fellow Democrats in NYC were saying or doing. Things he didn't say or embrace himself.

In a purple district like his, it was a shame he had to stand up to pressure from both ends of the spectrum.

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Response to George II (Reply #70)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 11:07 AM

73. Then its bad campaigning to allow an opponent to frame the debate with an non issue. There's

... not too many ways around this when it comes to DTP, 20202 and dtp was text book 04JohnKerry bad campaigning to allow a non issue to be framed then respond to it with nothing in kind or escalation.

If those candidates were on the primary attack with a theme against supporters of Putin's whore for instance it would be damn near hard or impossible for them to hit back with something the candidate didn't ascribe too without looking petulant.

They didn't even bother making up a counter until the last damn minute !!

Bad campaigning

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #73)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 11:11 AM

76. As I said, it's a shame that some Democrats have to campaign against republicans AND....

....some of the things their fellow Democrats say.

"Defund the Police" WAS an issue in 2020, certainly not a non-issue.

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Response to George II (Reply #76)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 11:16 AM

78. There's NO PROOF it was a deciding factor no matter how many times some want to act like it ...

... was without an facts to back it up.

If someone can show a poll were DTP was a top 3 deciding factor then raising the anemic down ballot response to it has some relevance.

There aren't any cause it wasn't

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #12)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 11:29 AM

83. All the reasons Democrats say they did poorly down ballot

This article explains why Democrats did poorly in the 2020 elections.



3. Moderate Democrats got slammed by “defund the police” and “socialist” and “Medicare-for-all” ads. These were the predominant ads that Republicans ran in competitive House and Senate races. Some of it was fearmongering and inaccurate. In retrospect, a number of Democrats, especially moderate ones, don’t think the party took those attacks seriously enough.

Here’s what Rep. Harley Rouda (D-Calif.), who lost, told The Washington Post: “Many [voters], I believe, bought into the message that Democrats are marching in that direction [of socialism], and that was a false narrative. I would tell you, the Democratic Party, in my opinion, is more moderate than it has ever been. We did not combat that message as effectively as we should have.”

“My opponent only talked about three words: Defund the police,” Democrat Cameron Webb said on a private call this week, Politico reported. He lost what Democrats hoped was a winnable race in Virginia.

“I’m not sure that as a party we took that attack head on, and provided our counter narrative,” Rep. Stephanie Murphy (D-Fla.) told Politico of “socialist” attacks resonating with Hispanic voters in Florida, costing Democrats two House seats. “It’s not enough to say what you’re not, you have to define what you are. And we have to define it in a way that doesn’t scare the American people.”

“[T]he [liberal] rhetoric and the policies and all that stuff — it has gone way too far,” Rep. Conor Lamb (D-Pa.) told the New York Times. “It needs to be dialed back. It needs to be rooted in common sense, in reality, and yes, politics. Because we need districts like mine to stay in the majority and get something done for the people that we care about the most.”

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #9)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 05:32 AM

31. I believe Max Rose

losing his seat to Nicole Maliotakis was a direct result of this Even though he personally didn't support Defund the Police, Staten Island is where a large number of NYC cops live. They equated it with the democratic platform and voted R.

That's a very specific circumstance, but it's a local one (for me) that seems VERY obviously affected by the messaging.

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Response to Dorian Gray (Reply #31)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 07:54 AM

47. What was Max Roses attack response? If he didn't have an attack response what was his primary

... attack stance relative to reality of what his opponent stood for?

thx in advance

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #47)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 03:17 PM

91. He went on to disavow the mayor

and tried to be tough on crime/support the police/talk about his military background.

It didn't matter.

Yr wlcm in advance

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Response to Dorian Gray (Reply #31)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 10:53 AM

68. Agree With You

I watched as they had commercial after commercial with members of the police force saying he wanted to defund the police. It took a toll on him especially as you say, in Staten Island. And considering how terrible Maliotakis is it was a real eye opener as to how effective that slogan could be against a Dem/Light like Max Rose. The guy who swore he'd never vote for Nancy Pelosi.

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Response to Me. (Reply #68)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 03:19 PM

92. Yes, exactly.

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Response to Dorian Gray (Reply #31)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 01:44 PM

89. That is a very good example

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #9)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 10:52 AM

67. True words here.

The problem here as i see it is, That phrase came out of a BLM protest. (i think that's where it came from) I believe the QTHUGS are monitoring EVERY protest just to get their next election argument. WE ALL have to be kinda careful of what is said at ALL future protests!

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #2)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 03:25 AM

25. What democrats who lost

 

ran supporting defund the police?

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Response to ChrisF1961 (Reply #25)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 08:09 AM

48. +1, there were a few who had it on their websites but did not make it part of their platform or

... a few who understood the sentiment if not the action.

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #48)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 08:37 AM

50. Who?

 

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Response to ChrisF1961 (Reply #50)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 08:43 AM

51. Cori Bush tweeted dtp once, she won though (link) there aren't going to be too many examples

https://www.kmov.com/news/cori-bush-responds-to-criticism-of-her-tweet-calling-to-defund-the-pentagon/article_7ec2775e-151e-11eb-8758-17cd0a1cf0cf.html

AOC also tweeted something in regards to support of the sentiment

Bottom line, any time dems 04JohnKerry any winger attack we lose

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #51)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 08:45 AM

53. But they won

 

I'm asking about those who lost because they campaigned on Defund the Police.

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Response to ChrisF1961 (Reply #53)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 08:48 AM

54. +1, your question cuts to the chase. We're blaming our anemic response on a slogan vs ...

... developing a message / feedback infrastructure that is attack oriented and effective at making a message stick.

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #54)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 10:42 AM

58. You are wrong

We came close to losing the House in 2020 and did not do well in state legislature races. The real world results show that you are wrong

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #58)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 10:44 AM

60. I'll ask for the polls again but I don't see you responding to those request just posting the same

... thing over again without any proof on DTP.

Also, if you take the racist framing of "woke" which is to deflect away from the problem on to the people pointing out the problem then Carville makes sense.

He doesn't make sense if people are focusing on the problem vs the people bringing it up

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #60)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 11:08 AM

74. Fewer than 1 in 5 support 'defund the police' movement, USA TODAY/Ipsos Poll finds

Do you tire of being wrong? I live in the real world and I have worked on campaigns and have been active on party issues for a long time. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/03/07/usa-today-ipsos-poll-just-18-support-defund-police-movement/4599232001/

Support to redistribute police department funding has decreased among Americans since August after a summer of protests had erupted across the country against racial injustice and police brutality, a recent Ipsos/USA TODAY poll found.

The call to redistribute police budgets stemmed from Black Lives Matter activists and protesters who called to "defund the police" after the deaths of unarmed Black Americans at the hands of police, such as George Floyd and Breonna Taylor.

While some believe defunding the police is a call to get rid of law enforcement completely, many activists behind the slogan intended to make a more nuanced argument for police budgets to be steered toward community social programs so officers were less often required to take on roles better suited to social workers.

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #58)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 10:50 AM

63. Got a poll on that claim? Claims are no facts on matter who they come from

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #63)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 11:07 AM

72. Fewer than 1 in 5 support 'defund the police' movement, USA TODAY/Ipsos Poll finds

Do you tire of being wrong? I live in the real world and I have worked on campaigns and have been active on party issues for a long time. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/03/07/usa-today-ipsos-poll-just-18-support-defund-police-movement/4599232001/

Support to redistribute police department funding has decreased among Americans since August after a summer of protests had erupted across the country against racial injustice and police brutality, a recent Ipsos/USA TODAY poll found.

The call to redistribute police budgets stemmed from Black Lives Matter activists and protesters who called to "defund the police" after the deaths of unarmed Black Americans at the hands of police, such as George Floyd and Breonna Taylor.

While some believe defunding the police is a call to get rid of law enforcement completely, many activists behind the slogan intended to make a more nuanced argument for police budgets to be steered toward community social programs so officers were less often required to take on roles better suited to social workers.



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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #72)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 11:09 AM

75. Poll on DTP affecting peoples votes, we already know the action wasn't popular but we're

... talking about how it affected peoples voting when dem candidates didn't run on it as a platform issue.

Thx in advance for that poll that shows DTP affecting people's voting.

P.S. I ask this out of all people who say DTP affected us down ballot and they can't come up with a poll on that being an affecting issue either.

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #75)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 11:13 AM

77. GOP Launches Ads Highlighting 'Defund The Police' To Target Vulnerable 2022 Dems

I like living in the real world. Do you ever tire of being wrong? https://thepoliticalinsider.com/gop-launches-ads-highlighting-defund-the-police-to-target-vulnerable-2022-dems/

The National Republican Congressional Committee (NRCC) has begun running digital ads targeting Democrats for “defund the police” policies and rhetoric in districts they have deemed “vulnerable” in the upcoming midterms.

The ads will run in five Democrat-held districts the GOP hopes to flip in 2022 on their way to a House majority.

The ad highlights left-wing calls to defund the nation’s police departments, and highlights ‘Squad’ member Rep. Rashida Tlaib‘s demand to abolish prisons.

From Yahoo News, NRCC Spokesman Michael McAdams said of the ad push,

“We are going to ensure every voter knows Democrats want to Defund the Police. Whether it’s Rashida Tlaib demanding an end to policing and incarceration, or Maxine Waters encouraging rioters to engage in violence, Democrats can’t be trusted to stand with law enforcement and keep Americans safe.”

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #77)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 11:21 AM

79. Ad homs indicate weak position and that tweet is not a poll on dtp being a deciding factor in ...

... down ballot voting.

You know what I'm asking for you can't provide it because those polls on dtp don't exist.

There are no polls saying dtp was a deciding factor in peoples votes in most of the down ballot elections

I've asked for this ad nausea before and gotten similar responses in the past, so don't be too upset about it.

We lost those down ballot races because of bad campaign messaging and primary attack regime

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #79)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 11:25 AM

80. Do you tire of being wrong?

Read the polling provided. 18% is not a good number in the real world.

We lost a good number of house seats in 2020 due to this stupidity and we will lose the House and Senate in 2022 if we continue to use this slogan. I live in the real world and I work on real campaigns. I saw first hand the GOP use this stupid slogan and win races that they should not have won. We had high hopes of flipping the control of the Texas House in 2020 and those hopes were dashed in part due to the GOP's effective use of this slogan.

Again, I would urge you to get out into the real world and work on actual campaigns.

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #79)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 11:28 AM

81. All the reasons Democrats say they did poorly down ballot

This article explains why Democrats did poorly in the 2020 elections.



3. Moderate Democrats got slammed by “defund the police” and “socialist” and “Medicare-for-all” ads. These were the predominant ads that Republicans ran in competitive House and Senate races. Some of it was fearmongering and inaccurate. In retrospect, a number of Democrats, especially moderate ones, don’t think the party took those attacks seriously enough.

Here’s what Rep. Harley Rouda (D-Calif.), who lost, told The Washington Post: “Many [voters], I believe, bought into the message that Democrats are marching in that direction [of socialism], and that was a false narrative. I would tell you, the Democratic Party, in my opinion, is more moderate than it has ever been. We did not combat that message as effectively as we should have.”

“My opponent only talked about three words: Defund the police,” Democrat Cameron Webb said on a private call this week, Politico reported. He lost what Democrats hoped was a winnable race in Virginia.

“I’m not sure that as a party we took that attack head on, and provided our counter narrative,” Rep. Stephanie Murphy (D-Fla.) told Politico of “socialist” attacks resonating with Hispanic voters in Florida, costing Democrats two House seats. “It’s not enough to say what you’re not, you have to define what you are. And we have to define it in a way that doesn’t scare the American people.”

“[T]he [liberal] rhetoric and the policies and all that stuff — it has gone way too far,” Rep. Conor Lamb (D-Pa.) told the New York Times. “It needs to be dialed back. It needs to be rooted in common sense, in reality, and yes, politics. Because we need districts like mine to stay in the majority and get something done for the people that we care about the most.”

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #81)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 05:45 PM

99. It's an editorial arguing a post hoc ergo propter hoc postition.

 

Predicated on anecdotal quotes and ignoring data analysis. In effect, the premise simply does not follow from the objective evidence provided...

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #75)

Sat May 1, 2021, 02:28 PM

101. The Law and Order Election

It has been clear to me that you have never worked in a campaign and have no idea as to how campaigns work in the real world. Your emphasis on exit polls has been a source of amusement to me in that this is a great example as to how little you understand how the real world operated. Thank you for the laughs

I finally decided to humor you (after all you have provide me with some good laughs) and found some exit polls for you. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2020/11/09/defund_the_police_backfired_on_democrats_528914.html

Instead of a blue wave for the Democrats, there was a red Republican wave in the 2020 elections. Many analysts are explaining this unexpected outcome in ways that confirm their prior assumptions. Anti-woke centrist liberals: The Democratic Party was too woke. Bernie Sanders-type social democrats: The Democrats blew it by not running on Medicare for All. Professional conservative pundits: Trump and Trumpism are more popular with Americans than we thought.

I beg to differ. I think this was a law and order election.

According to early exit polls, here were the reasons that voters voted for Trump and presumably other Republicans: The economy (82%), crime and safety (71%), health care policy (36%), the coronavirus pandemic (14%) and racial inequality (8%).....

Maybe the slogan “defund the police” backfired.

Democrats might reply: But Biden and Harris rejected the phrase “defund the police.” Indeed, they did. And Donald Trump has repeatedly denounced and rejected white supremacy and white nationalism. Nevertheless, the mainstream media and Democratic propagandists (but I repeat myself again) have told us for four years that by denouncing white supremacy in public, Trump is secretly approving of white supremacy, dog-whistle-style.

Turnabout is fair play. Having tried to persuade voters that all Republicans are closet Nazis whose public statements cannot be taken at face value, Democratic spinmeisters in the media cannot be surprised if it turns out that some swing voters have concluded that apparently mainstream Democrats are closet antifa sympathizers. Possibly many swing voters thought that actions—or, in the case of the summer riots, inaction—spoke louder than words about the Democratic Party’s attitude to law enforcement, particularly when many Democratic urban governments from Minneapolis to Austin proceeded relentlessly to cut police budgets in the name of racial justice, even as the violence was going on.

When you put together two facts—the fact that the Republican Party as a whole picked up voters, and the fact that 71% of voters for the Republican presidential candidate said they were motivated by “crime and safety”—it all adds up. The voter backlash following the urban riots of 1967 helped to produce the Nixon victory of 1968. And the voter backlash following the urban riots of 2020 helped to produce the Republican electoral wave in November 2020.

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Response to ChrisF1961 (Reply #50)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 10:33 AM

56. We literally lost this seat over Defund the Police.

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #56)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 10:46 AM

61. Did he campaign on Defund the Police? No he didn't

 

Or maybe he lost because he did ads and sent out mailers embracing Trump, depressing support from Democrats.

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Response to ChrisF1961 (Reply #61)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 10:51 AM

66. +1, there are too many people making excuses for not being on the attack and having an anemic

... response to DTP.

People want to blame the slogan vs responses to the slogan

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Response to ChrisF1961 (Reply #25)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 10:43 AM

59. We're talking about Republicans here. Their attacks bear little relationship...

...to what someone actually has or hasn't done.

No specific Democrat had to run on "defund the police". Republicans tried (and succeeded to some extent) to tar all Democrats with that stupid slogan, simply because the slogan existed and a few Democrats (mostly activists, not elected officials) put it out there.

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #59)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 10:51 AM

64. Actually it was BLM who put it out there

 

not the Democratic party. And if Democrats can't respond to bogus attacks, then they might continue to lose elections. So the fault is not Democrats being too woke, it's that Republicans are liars and that is not going to change.

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #2)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 04:12 AM

28. Can't name the seats but I agree.

That was even predicted here on DU.

We must remember how ignorant most of the country is & how the phrase does not mean the elimination of law enforcement.

Most Americans take things quite literally.

That said, Carville chose his words VERY badly too.


👍

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Response to Duppers (Reply #28)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 08:10 AM

49. That's bad campaigning that's not ignorance of people. If we 04JohnKerry ever lie the kGQP comes out

... with we lose.

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #2)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 05:30 AM

30. I agree

"Defund the police" was a bad slogan. BLM had the support of the majority of the country until the right wing media started harping on that. The message was convoluted. "What we really mean is take funding away from this and reform!"

Woke culture is a culture movement, by the way. It's here and it'll evolve and grow. I don't think it needs to be the democratic platform, though. What is right is right, and popular social movements will make themselves clear when it comes to making laws.

But as a party, I think we should focus on the fiscal health of our overall population, as those moves prove to be REALLY popular with the voting public. Infrastructure, including Pre-k for all benefits ALL COMMUNITIES. Health care reform benefits ALL COMMUNITIES. etc.

We can transform society by eradicating childhood poverty. That benefits every single American.

That is how Ds will win moving forward. The social cultural stuff will follow.

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #2)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 06:38 AM

36. Exactly, same hear nt

 

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #2)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 03:32 PM

93. Exactly

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #2)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 05:04 PM

95. I agree.. it sure as hell

doesn't work in Swing Districts.

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Response to pattyloutwo (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 01:51 AM

3. Wokeness didn't get half a million people killed from a cold that was on steroids

That was a president that had his base that said "I'm so glad we have a president who isn't politically correct"

Wokeness didn't cause a government shutdown and the shutdown was when the White House, House, and Senate were all controlled by the same party

That was when we had a president that had a base that said "I'm so glad we have a president who isn't politically correct"

"Owning the libs" isn't going to put food on the table or pay the bills for anyone except for a small number of hucksters and professional liars but we have an "other side of the aisle" that is determined to make that their chief ideology.

Here's a hard truth to face... if people don't want to vote for Democrats because they're too "woke" and didn't see any problems with the things I listed... then they're probably lost causes, they probably believe in QAnon, that Socialist-Communist-Muslims are behind every cause they don't like, and that George Soros is paying people to say that black lives matter and also paying off the kids who don't want to be shot in school (Because not wanting to get shot is such a radical woke cause, right?)

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Response to ck4829 (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:13 AM

7. +1,

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Response to ck4829 (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:20 AM

10. and we're eating babies at the pizza parlor.

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Response to ck4829 (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:28 AM

13. We lost a good number of races we should had won in 2000

I agree with Carville

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #13)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:35 AM

18. Noted. Still not going to let people who think America is run by Transgender Communist Muslim Cabals

frame the political debate and be the people we need to plead for votes from.

And those people are probably half to two-thirds of the people concerned about "wokeness" or "cancel culture".

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Response to ck4829 (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:32 AM

15. +2 nt

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Response to ck4829 (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 11:41 AM

84. Agreed.

Conservatives are pushing hard on the "culture" items, better defined as racial animosity and resentment. The fake border crisis is built on fear that dirty Brown people are coming to rape your wives, steal your jobs, and vote Democratic. The Defund the Police (I have already stipulated long ago it is a bad slogan) issue is about scary Black people running amok in your town because the "thin blue line" is being taken away. They will start hitting the transgender sports and bathroom thing very soon because again, scary "he shes" are coming to ... Conservatives have ZERO policies that actually help anyone, so they rely heavily on pushing lies and stoking racial, ethnic, and gender resentments.

It is up to Democrats to push forward policies that actually help people. We need to push forward hard with economic help. We need to push forward hard on fixing the voting system to stop Republicans from being able to suppress votes. Those are the things we need to focus on. AND we need to support people like Val Demmings and Mondaire Jones who have been pushing back hard in Congress, on the Republican framing.

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Response to ck4829 (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 05:38 PM

98. Agreed

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Response to pattyloutwo (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:02 AM

4. maybe biden can use tomorrows speech to frame the jan 6 republican rebellion for what it was

and throw it in their faces. call for trials and hearings etc etc while comparing that to dems efforts to get voting out there for all citizens instead of rebellion

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Response to msongs (Reply #4)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:13 AM

8. +1,

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Response to msongs (Reply #4)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 12:30 PM

88. That opportunity was in January

Almost May now.

We'll get some mileage out of next November, but there isn't much more to be squeezed at the moment imo.

News gets old fast unfortunately.

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Response to pattyloutwo (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:08 AM

5. Carville has nothing to offer us.

He is an old DLC beltway pundit who will advise us to move to center when the center is already on the far right. If Carville had a real answer, he would be writing the book, hitting the air and the ground swell would be noticeable. His Wife, Mary Joe Matalin, worked for Bush and Cheney and she announced that she was voting for Trump in 2020. After all this and she was still for Trump?

Too woke? Really? What freedom and equality issue are we supposed to throw under the bus? Don't give Carville any more airtime, he's poison.

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Response to PurgedVoter (Reply #5)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:21 AM

11. how could any Democrat be married to someone that was going to vote for Trump in 2020?

If my wife said something like that, we would probably be "ex" or very close to it.

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Response to PurgedVoter (Reply #5)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:30 AM

14. President Obama agrees with Carville

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #14)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:58 AM

22. +1

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #14)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 05:06 AM

29. Yes, defund the police is a bad slogan.

But defund the police is not really the same thing as woke. It is a policy or concept that some woke people would like to try after having witnessed entire police departments defending murders that were caught on video.

Carville knows exactly what he is saying when he says, woke. I too was raised in the South, so I know exactly what he is saying.

Woke is a relatively new term but the meaning is clear enough and it's usage links back. In the South, when a liberal says, "Woke," he means, you are thinking, sensitive, aware and compassionate, especially where it concerns minorities, but it also includes the environment. When a conservative says, "Woke," he means the exact same thing and they despise you for it.

In another time, the term "soft on black people" was how you said part of woke. It meant you were weak minded and you should be careful because the right people will want to kill you first. Except, the term "soft on black people" may have used other terms in it to more precisely indicate how wrong headed and worthy of being hung you were.

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Response to PurgedVoter (Reply #29)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 07:34 AM

41. THANK YOU!

 

Carville is typical of many white progressives. They talk a good game about civil rights, equity, and justice, but they see those things as "nice to dos" as long as they believe they benefit the political aims of white people but the minute they become inconvenient or uncomfortable, they want to toss them by the wayside.

It's in the same realm as the criticism of targeting minority voters as "identity politics" that interferes with the attempts to attract white working class voters.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #41)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 07:42 AM

43. I really do not see this as anything to do with race or Carville pushing white people politics.

He's a hard core political competitor and simply wants to beat the Republicans. If any slogan or trend or movement is damaging that goal then he is saying we need to fix it.

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Response to honest.abe (Reply #43)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 07:48 AM

44. Being "woke" isn't a slogan or trend or movement

 

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Response to honest.abe (Reply #43)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 12:12 PM

86. Sorry but no...

Anytime you are railing against "woke" and "cancel culture" or talking about "identity politics" you are exactly pushing "White people politics" Why? because plain old politics IS White people politics. That is how it has been throughout the years, even in progressive politics. Carville wants to win and he is saying that the right wing framing around "woke" is going to carry the day. We have to ask ourselves WHY would that be? Why would a simple word like "woke" be enough to turn people who would support policies that favor poor and middle class people, which are the purview of the Democratic Party against those policies in favor of the Republican Party, whose policies favor ONLY the top maybe 10% of the population? Policies that favor 90% of the people and improve their lives versus Policies that favor maybe 10% and make everyone else's lives harder. People are willing to do that because of "woke"?

FDR could not get Social Security through a progressive congress without excluding a number of Black people. Many labor Unions were notoriously exclusionary to Black and Mexican-American workers even as they fought to help "the common man" against the evil Capitalist. LBJ lost the South for more than a generation when he went forward with the Voting Rights Acts.

So Carville is admitting that most people, even within our Democratic coalition, harbor racist and bigoted sentiment?

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #14)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 07:30 AM

40. A bad slogan has nothing to do with being woke

 

It's just being used as an excuse by certain progressives who are only interested in civil rights when convenient for them and want to walk away from it when it no longer is - and feel perfectly comfortable designating themselves the arbiter of when and how they should be fought for.

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #14)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 05:09 PM

96. President Obama is right & Pres Biden

Goes with Reform the Police, too!

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Response to PurgedVoter (Reply #5)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 06:27 AM

35. THANK YOU!

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Response to PurgedVoter (Reply #5)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 07:21 AM

38. word.

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Response to PurgedVoter (Reply #5)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 10:46 AM

62. "Too woke" doesn't mean too much real concern

Real concern about freedom and equality is, I would agree, something you can't have too much of.

But you can express your concern in unproductive and obnoxious ways that prompt more backlash than positive change. That's what I'd call "too woke".

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Response to pattyloutwo (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:35 AM

16. "Free College" and "Medicare For All" were also shit slogans ...

Not necessarily the ideas behind them, mind you, but the slogans themselves ... suck.

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Response to Hugh_Lebowski (Reply #16)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:37 AM

19. I think "affordable education" would be better

and it should include other forms of education like trade schools .

Even Obamacare is Affordable Care Act .

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Response to JI7 (Reply #19)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 06:39 AM

37. Agree, bad slogans don't help

 

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Response to Hawker123 (Reply #37)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 08:44 AM

52. bad responses to slogans are even worse

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #52)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 10:38 AM

57. That is not how politics work in the real world

I have been involved in a number of campaigns. The GOP is good at using dumb slogans as a basis for attack

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Response to pattyloutwo (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:46 AM

20. Too woke...Dude 74 million zombies voted for a buffoon

And the Senate is a one way dead end for legislation !!!!

Hey Jimmy, we have 6 catholics on the supreme court, I don't even know 6 catholics...and we just lost 3 seats to wholesale corporatist Judges each spot basically stolen from the other party, each judge also playing a role in the landmark case of this century Bush V Gore!

Jimmy has not aged well, he is missing the coming evolution of our country.

We need to make some changes

Idaho, the Dakotas and Wyoming don't even equal the population of two boroughs of NYC and yet they Dwarf New York in the senate 8 votes to 2 ! Huge problem not foreseen by the fore fathers.

Status quo benefits the repubs cause they can tell their base how great everything is despite evidence to the contrary and all they do is believe them and vote for the R behind their name.

Jim let's be better then they are and Woke respects Everybody !




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Response to pattyloutwo (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:59 AM

23. Yeah,

cause trying to work across the aisle works so well. Ask Obama. Trump was always asking half of the country what he should do.

I don’t know what world he lives in. Might need a more realistic hobby, then politics.

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Response to pattyloutwo (Original post)


Response to pattyloutwo (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 03:27 AM

26. Carville is too asleep. /nt

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Response to pattyloutwo (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 05:57 AM

32. That's nice.

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Response to pattyloutwo (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 06:03 AM

33. Thoughts: Bloomberg often uses loaded words to "start something" like bs arguments within the

Last edited Wed Apr 28, 2021, 06:44 AM - Edit history (1)

Democratic Party. Even if it is ranked as some left center source, its goal is profit.

Carville might have had his day and I'm glad he's a Democrat, but I could give a shit less what Carville thinks. I only care that others think that he's somehow thoughtful. He's not. We need better than Carville.

Also, your app has bot problems. I use the Apple iPhone and refuse to use their "news" service.

https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/excessive-applenewsbot-requests.html

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Response to pattyloutwo (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 06:15 AM

34. Is that what his wife tells him?

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Response to pattyloutwo (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 07:21 AM

39. "I think it's because large parts of the country view us as an urban, coastal, arrogant

party ... and it's damaging to the party brand."

Doesn't help when people say things about Democrats like:

"They have no ideology. Their ideology is opportunism. My own feeling is that the Democratic Party is ideologically bankrupt."

"Over the last 30 or 40 years the Democratic Party has transformed itself from the party of the working class to a party significantly controlled by a liberal elite which has moved very far away from the needs of working families in this country."

"How does it happen that they win elections and Democrats lose? And I think the conclusion is Democrats have focused too much with a liberal elite which is raising incredible sums of money from wealthy people in the upper middle class but has ignored ... the working class and the middle class ... ."

"I think it is fair to say that in many ways the Democratic Party has become a party of the coastal elite, folks who have a lot of money, upper middle class people ... ."

Saying Democrats are out-of-touch rich coastal elites who don't care about the working and middle classes -- who would say such things and why?

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Response to pattyloutwo (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 07:52 AM

45. Say, Jimmy, how about taking the fight to where the problem is?

Y'know, the Republicans and their bullshit slinging apparatus?

You remember that, right? They built the early souped-up model to take out your old boss, and have been refining it ever since.

After all, that's why "woke" is a buzzword in the first place; because they gnaw on it all day and night like a new favorite chew toy. They pick something, put a menacing spin on it, and flood the nation with their spin. Soon after, mainstream sources just accept that spin as the default meaning. I mean, that's what you;re doing right now,

Our main "messaging problem" is that they have thousands of bullhorns and we don't have that many. What are you doing to change that? What are you doing to make our voices heard and bottleneck their floodgates?

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Response to pattyloutwo (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 10:32 AM

55. Carville is correct

I personally support reforms to the police. I worked hard and we got a good Democrat elected as District Attorney in my county two years ago and this cycle we got a good man elected as sheriff of my county. Our new DA has made a tremendous amount of difference in my county and I believe that the new Sheriff will also help. However, it is clear that we lost races that we should not have lost Defund the police was used very effectively by the GOP in down ballot races. A good number of races that Democrats should have won were lost due to this issue.




The GOP ran a ton of ads using this issue
Sure enough, Republicans saw an opportunity. Painting Democrats as supporters of “defunding” the police became the focus of campaign literature, TV and digital ads, and live televised debates. That forced Democratic candidates to divert resources that might otherwise be used discussing COVID-19 relief, health care or education to be used disavowing themselves from the slogan and otherwise defending themselves.

Out of 31 broadcast TV ads that Trump and other allied campaign groups used to attack Biden and other Democrats for being soft on law and order, 11 spots ― that aired a total of 77,647 times ― explicitly mentioned “defund the police,” according to an analysis Kantar Media/CMAG conducted for HuffPost. And out of 216 Republican broadcast TV ads in congressional races blasting Democrats, 157 spots that aired 103,000 times used the phrase.

I was disappointed to seen Susan Collins re-elected. It seems that Collins was able to use the "defund the police" issue very effectively
Sen. Susan Collins (R-Maine) and the GOP’s Senate campaign arm hit her Democratic opponent, Sara Gideon, in a TV ad for links to a “defund the police” billionaire. The basis for the ad was Gideon’s attendance at a fundraiser hosted by an environmental coalition that includes NextGen America. NextGen, funded by liberal billionaire Tom Steyer, supports defunding the police

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Response to pattyloutwo (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 11:01 AM

71. Hopefully, woke to gasbags like Carville

Just go away, Jim.

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Response to pattyloutwo (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 11:29 AM

82. This woke/cancel culture stuff

People act like this a big problem. It seems to me like very few people are annoyingly woke. I consider this to be mostly something right wingers fixate on because they see it as a way to both stereotype and attack dems. It's also a distraction from real issues that the Republicans don't want to deal with. I feel like this is something that is blown way out of proportion and not a tremendous issue. It feeds into the culture wars crap that Republicans are trying to use against Democrats. Democratic politicians should focus on fixing real issues and not allow themselves to be dragged into inflammatory culture wars by Republicans. Joe Biden and most of our Democratic leaders do a good job of this.

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Response to BoringUsername (Reply #82)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 12:20 PM

87. Precisely. The real problem is that they have thousands of outlets screaming it...

...while we have tiddlywinks compared to that, so their hair'em scare'em version becomes the default.

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Response to pattyloutwo (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 12:08 PM

85. He's right.

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Response to pattyloutwo (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 03:16 PM

90. Carville doesn't know what "woke" is.

maybe he should learn.

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Response to pattyloutwo (Original post)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 04:24 PM

94. I disagree with him about being too woke, but he made some spot on comments.

Take someone like Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She’s obviously very bright. She knows how to draw a headline. In my opinion, some of her political aspirations are impractical and probably not going to happen. But that’s probably the worst thing that you can say about her.

Now take someone like Marjorie Taylor Greene, the new Republican congresswoman from Georgia. She’s absolutely loonier than a tune. We all know it. And yet, for some reason, the Democrats pay a bigger political price for AOC than Republicans pay for Greene. That’s the problem in a nutshell. And it’s ridiculous because AOC and Greene are not comparable in any way.



Look at Florida. You now have Democrats saying Florida is a lost cause. Really? In 2018 in Florida, giving felons the right to vote got 64 percent. In 2020, a $15 minimum wage, which we have no chance of passing [federally], got 67 percent. Has anyone in the Democratic Party said maybe there’s nothing wrong with the state of Florida? Maybe the problem is the kind of campaigns we’re running?


We won the White House against a world-historical buffoon. And we came within 42,000 votes of losing. We lost congressional seats. We didn’t pick up state legislatures. So let’s not have an argument about whether or not we’re off-key in our messaging. We are. And we’re off because there’s too much jargon and there’s too much esoterica and it turns people off.



We have a serious messaging problem. The repubs have more successfully defined our party than we have.

We need a marketing department—stat!

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #94)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 06:29 PM

100. I'd like to rec your post!

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