Gasoline is way too cheap.

[Ron Green]

People sit thoughtlessly with their engines running. People take their cars for errands of a couple of miles, or a couple of blocks. People continue to buy enormous pickup trucks and SUVs. People commute alone many miles each day.

If gas prices at the pump included the true cost of its use, what number would start to change people’s behavior? $5.00? 7.50? 15.00?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

1. What behavior-change do you have as a goal?

[Ron Green]

106. Stopping the things I listed would be a good start. n/t

[Sherman A1]

2. How much do you want to pay for every item

On every store shelf? I ask that because every single item in a grocery store, mass merchant, small local shop or restaurant gets there on a back of a truck many of which are gasoline powered and the rest are diesel.

[Ron Green]

9. We've built our world on cheap gasoline, and that's been a known fact

for fifty years. Buying cheap crap from China, eating out of season, endlessly expanding suburbs - the whole consumer culture we’ve come to expect has been made possible by petroleum, cheap at the pump with costs externalized to our health and our planet. Again, we’ve known this for decades.

[Sherman A1]

25. Nice statement

Didn’t answer the question of how much you want to pay for groceries.

[Ron Green]

33. I'll pay what they cost.

Look, I understand that cheap oil is built into everything we consume. The argument has got to get better than this, after all this time.

[Sherman A1]

38. Perhaps you are in a position to pay whatever they cost

however, many to do so and are not able to access the bicycle around town lifestyle you have described in your posts on this thread for a multitude of reasons including wealth gap, health related issues and alike. Yes, gasoline is too often wasted and something needs to be done, hopefully the coming of EVs will address much of this, but for now an increase in gasoline prices ripples through the economy negatively affecting people in ways both seen and unseen.

Your OP comes across as rather uncaring for those who cannot afford those negative economic ripples.

[brooklynite]

49. Never understood why people imagine EVs are a fuel panacea.....

Nice if you have a waterfall in your backyard, but otherwise, how do you imagine that most electricity is generated?

[Sherman A1]

54. As more and more electricity will be generated by renewables

and coal plants sidelined then things will improve. For the short term yes, coal and nuclear will be generating that electricity being used by the EVs. Nothing happens overnight and Yes, it should have happened long ago (but, it didn't) as we are all well aware.

[Ron Green]

51. You raise an interesting comparison.

“For now, an increase in gasoline prices ripples through the economy negatively affecting people in ways both seen and unseen.”

And you’re citing people whose need for gasoline affects their ability to buy food? What kind of world have we made in which this toxic behavior is required in order for poor people to live? And how, knowing what we’ve known for many years, have we continued to subsidize this?

People are crying about the “bad politics” of true-cost gas prices. I suggest that kicking the can down the road will bring us really bad politics.

[BradAllison]

53. People need gas to get to work to pay for food

People also need public trans like buses to pay for that gas to get that food if they're poor.

Keep digging.

[Ron Green]

113. I was referring to the PRICE of gasoline keeping people from paying for groceries.

As long as gas is so cheap, non-essential trips will be as easy as necessary ones. And we see profligate big-vehicle driving as a result.

[Sherman A1]

55. Yeah, the world should be a far better place

but, sorry to break it to you, it ain't and your OP suggestion would have very immediate harmful consequences for those least able to afford them.

[Hekate]

90. People "need gas to buy food" if they purchase more than one bag of groceries at a time

Good Lord

[Backseat Driver]

26. Lots of states declare emergency and Fed/NSA is monitoring

even this current apparently short-term situation that could cause shortages and pricing escalation of product(s) and services: https://www.fltimes.com/business/national/after-pipeline-cyberextortion-attempt-gasoline-ticks-higher/article_bb9edf5c-6a40-5d96-9d03-25724abb96bd.html

But you are correct that people have little inclination to conserve or self-prevent waste as we pull out IOUs and plastic and daydream the day away in a trance...I mean, a real penny is basically worthless; some pennies lost are to be expected, no? Yeah, no true gratitude for resources we mostly take for granted...we've paved Paradise and put in a parking lot.

Another thing like that...food. You wanna see waste! Look at all the recalls of perhaps pathogen-laden foods pulled off the market and discarded because it could make one sick (somebody grew or fed and harvested that crop/animal)...oops, the human error and low wage job rewards to maintain clean equipment somewhere along the line/ Hint, it's not the company officers, tax and accounting office personnel, or other privileged doing that...but wear a mask? Nah! Really unconcerned for themselves or others...geesh! Such an inconvenience or they just had the very protective "blood of Jesus in their veins" and that's real science...

[SYFROYH]

3. How do you travel for errands that are a couple of miles away?

[Ron Green]

10. On a bicycle, mostly.

This is pretty simple.

[SYFROYH]

12. yeah. That's not viable for a lot of people.

[Ron Green]

24. Right. But it IS viable for many, maybe even most.

I’m in my 70s, with significant health issues, and I use my bike for many of my around-town trips. I live in a city of about 50,000 that’s mostly flat, with painted bike lanes on the major streets.

Very few other people do this, although it’s very convenient. It’s just that gas is so dang cheap that it’s easier to jump in the car.

I’m talking about using the bike PART of the time, by SOME people. It just isn’t happening.

[Backseat Driver]

35. I fit in that age range too but I can't afford

to be laid-up and bike riding is too dangerous in those street-marked bike lanes and unmaintained sidewalks...but I am saving because my old fossil-fueled jalopy needs a repair and I've got to save pennies to fix it elsewhere in the budget...the jar/envelope is slowly filling up. I got priorities, probably misplaced in the same way others do...making small changes in daily activities to conserve and bring down costs...I'd rather have an ISP to be here, for instance, than be the object of that hostile, packin', distracted, suburban fossil-fuel SUV driver...Like most other new things...the cost is higher until the change and newness is common place. I love to switch to an electric vehicle; hell, if they can be safely driverless, better still, but it's gonna be a long, long wait for availability and cost. Don't think I want to short-change my longevity gene just yet. Cyclists, be careful out there!

[Polybius]

79. How many packages can you possibly hold on your bike?

I bike, but my supermarket orders are too big to carry. Sure, I could go every day with small orders and bike, but that would be a bit much.

[Ron Green]

81. With a couple of panniers I can carry about 40 pounds of groceries.

There are just two of us in the house, so that’s doable. Sometimes I take the car, but mostly the bike lanes are empty.

[CrackityJones75]

64. Ok a few questions for you.

How old are you?
What is the climate where you live?
What are the roads like where you live?
How many people live in your household?
Are you urban or rural?
Do you have any disabilities?
Do you have other health concerns?
what is your schedule like?


I do think that at times we rely on out vehicles too much but I also think you are passing judgement on a whole lot of people and assigning those judgements to every single person that isn’t fitting into your tidy little box.

[Ron Green]

71. A few answers:

I'm 73.
The climate here is wet in the winter (very little ice or snow), nice spring and fall, hot sometimes in the summer.
The roads are flat and straight; made for speeding cars like most of this country.
Two.
It's a small city (50,000).
I have several disabilities, but I can still ride my bike and I know how to deal with traffic.
My health is not great.
I'm retired, so no commuting. When I was working I rode my bike to work sometimes.

The main point of this OP is that many, many people who could use the bike SOME of the time are choosing not to do so and making excuses about it, and that cheap gas prices play into this situation.

Another point is that we've built a world on car dependency, and now wring our hands that it's just the way things are.

[CrackityJones75]

75. You have many factors that make commuting by bicycle.

You have many factors that make commuting by bicycle. I have at times on my life commuted exclusively by bicycle. One summer I barely drove my car at all. Maybe a handful of times.

But you are making statements about how people should live without considering what theor lives are like. You also seem to be admonishing people for their choices that led them tk where they are at in their lives as well as where our country has made choices in the past that has gotten us to where we are. That isn’t going to lead people to a good quality discussion and I’ll bet at this moment you ate thinking that I have it all wrong. I would say your opening to the dialogue has led us there.

As mentioned before trying to change centuries of decisions on the next election cycle will only prolong the changes you seek. And some of your proposals are just outright impossible for many people. You may disapprove, BUT you live in a free and democratic society. Or at least as best as we can be in our current situation.

To be sure things need to change. It just will not happen by going about it the way you seem to want to do it.

[Amishman]

73. not everyone lives somewhere that is viable

nearest supermarket is 10 miles away.

fuel taxes are a regressive tax structure, rural areas tend to be some of the poorest areas. Raising them hurts those who are most vulnerable.

A much better way to address this issue is to subsidize electric vehicles to the point where no one wants a gas guzzler. Have the subsidy be tied against household income, set the threshold at a level that most middle class and under can benefit. Fund the subsidy (and an overall tax structure redesign) with a true progressive income tax and probably a European style VAT. Our tax structures are cumbersome, confusing, and inefficient - with loads of regressive taxes that disproportionately hit the working class.

[Raine]

87. Sure it's really easy to carry a 20lb bag of kitty litter on a bike 🙄 👎

along with kitty food and people food along a highway where people drag race.

[Hekate]

92. How's the knees? And how many bags of groceries can you carry on your bike?

Once upon a time (40+ years ago) I lived in a flat city — or rather, everything I wanted was in the flat area. The bus system was fantastic, too, though I still had to walk some blocks to my stop and there was not a bus stop by the grocery store. I was in college, the peak of my physical fitness — and my knees were already crap, so, no, bike riding was not what I wanted to do, even though walking was fine and I was fast at it.

Then I moved out of the city and had children. My new bus stop was down a long hill and across a fricking highway.

Fast forward to the move to California. There was indeed a bus. I tried to take the toddlers and run some errands — and it took me all day. All. Day. Then I went to work and daycare was x miles in one direction and work was x miles in the other direction and the grocery store and pediatrician, etc.

So I learned to drive, and it’s been Toyotas ever since.

Let me know when your ideal world arrives.

[Liberal In Texas]

46. I drive all over town and don't use any gas.

I have a PHEV and one charge will take care of all my errands. When I get home it takes about an hour to recharge if the battery is almost completely empty.

I agree gas is too cheap. We could use the money we subsidize the oil companies for a ton of more worthwhile projects.

[Strelnikov_]

52. And therein lies the problem

The transition to a resilient and sustainable energy paradigm is a complex, long term project.

Not a problem for a species with Engineers and Scientists that put a man on the moon.

A major problem for a country with a political class that manages the proles based on a two-year election cycle.

[Skittles]

97. I walk

yup

[Freddie]

4. That's punishing people like me

Who live in a town with absolutely no public transportation. It’s kinda too late for European-style solutions as we’ve built ourselves too spread apart for people outside of cities to rely on public transportation. IMO the solution for many of us is electric cars and hybrids.

[redstatebluegirl]

5. Obviously you live in a city with good mass transit and sidewalks to use to walk to the store/work.

You are also must b in excellent health and can walk or bike where you need to go. What about everyone else? I agree that we need to worry abou the environment, but until the issues I mentioned are taken care of the people who will pay for your idea are the poor who need to get to their minimum wage job without mass trasit, the elderly who need to get to appointments with no options.

Our community is a large suburban area, our mass transit doesn't even come to our neighborhood, it only covers about 50 percent of our city. Sidewalks are not available in all neighborhoods in town, so you walk in the street and risk getting hit by cars drivin by people who can afford the $5 gas. The same is true of Oklahoma City.

I am not anti environmental issues but we MUST fix public trasportation and level the playing field before we start talking about making it hard to use cars to get to work and the doctor.

[fescuerescue]

6. That also means that EVERYTHING is way to cheap

As the cost of fuel is large component in pretty much everything.

[Oneironaut]

7. What about minimum wage workers who travel 20 miles to work every day?

[Chainfire]

20. Exactly, it is not as simple as it may seem

I have to drive 6 miles to mail a package. I have to drive 12 miles to buy groceries and I have to drive 38 miles to go to a doctor or hospital. There is no public transportation available where I live. Out here we don't have things like libraries, Uber, or high-speed internet, dog parks, gyms, sports stadiums. The alternative would be for the entire population of the rural areas to move to the cities; how do you think that would work out? I have lived and worked in Miami and Chicago so I have seen both worlds. If I could stroll down the street, or take the bus to buy food, or go to a doctor's appointment, I would be happy, but that is not the case. Automobiles are our connection to the rest of the world. Give us more effective means of transportation and we will be grateful. If they would patch the potholes on the road I live on, I would also be grateful.

I live on property that has been in the family for well over 100 years, my son is the fourth generation living here. At 70 years old, I can rest under the shade tree that my grandfather did, the same tree that I climbed when I was 7. I could sell out and move to the suburbs, but not everyone has that option. Somebody has to stay out here and keep sending food to the cities.

[Ron Green]

30. Your world is supported by cheap fuel.

Over the 100 years of your family’s land, we decided to make a world that could be enjoyed and explored by the middle class, and we chose the the individual, petroleum-fueled vehicle to do it.

The true cost of that decision in health, land use, consumer patterns and on and on is now coming due. And yet we still cry about gas prices if they get near $4. (Just look at the responses in this thread.)

[Oneironaut]

65. This is a false dilemma, though.

Moving away from our current, unsustainable use of fossil fuels needs to be a transition rather than a sudden shift against severe consequences. I believe going off fossil fuels is possible, but you cannot ask families to essentially starve themselves. High gas prices cause starvation and instability.

We need to support those who rely on this current dynamic while we transition over. Otherwise, it’s either not going to get done or be disastrous. High gas prices are always a negative and not the right way to push this process.

[Chainfire]

67. Are you suggesting that everyone should live in cities?

Would you also exclude suburbs?

I need affordable fuel just as I need affordable food; it is no more complicated than that. Driving up the price would hurt working people and free up the roads for the rich. Perhaps an answer would be something like investing in mass transportation for rural as well as urban areas. We did it with electrification. We could all live in high-rise boxes, but some of us would prefer a different kind of box.

I don't like fossil fuels any more than anyone else. Give me an alternative today. if I get an electric vehicle, the power that charges the batteries will still come from a natural gas fired power plant....Burn it here or burn it there.....

[ExciteBike66]

8. I agree

Goods are transported with fuel? Fine, maybe a temporary subsidy for truckers while fuel economy is either increased or electric trucks are developed

Don't have good public transportation? Fine, drive a hybrid. If fuel costs double, and you also double your fuel economy then you are back at the beginning. Also, demand for public transport would increase.

Fuel costs are regressive? Absolutely, but the government can probably figure out how to lower taxes in proportion to income and fuel costs.

[jimfields33]

11. We want to win elections

Right now people are not happy with the price and some want to increase it? God help us if we go to ration as some predict may happen.

[panader0]

14. I'll drive a hybrid if you buy one for me.

[obamanut2012]

37. I would buy an EV tomorrow if it was less than 18K

[FSogol]

19. Hybrids are more expensive than fuel engines. The intial cost is a non-starter for most people.

Same as switching to ground-source heat pumps and solar for homes.

[panader0]

13. Many people live in the country, as I do.

There's no way I can walk to town and back with groceries or lumber.
There is no public transportation here. Gas prices have a big effect on people who
need to drive.

[obamanut2012]

39. The OP's Utopia isn't sustainable in many urban areas, either

Food desserts, no bike lanes, bad public transportation. And, how does someone ride a bike home with food for four, including diapers, pet food, etc.? After they've worked a 10-hour retail shift.

[Ron Green]

82. You are so right!

All these dysfunctional aspects of some cities were created (or allowed to happen) specifically because of cars.

It’s not a utopia I’m calling for, any more than Black Lives Matter expects white supremacy to just disappear. Rather, I’m looking for an understanding of the history of how we got this cheap-gas world we depend on, and a commitment to do something about it.

[customerserviceguy]

15. Not so much anymore around here

The gas shortage is hitting my town hard, the only thing available at 8 AM today was premium.

[keithsw]

16. As I respond to this

Our little Mountain town in the Blue Ridge mountains of North Carolina has 3 gas stations. All three are totally out of gas due to the hacked oil pipeline. The next closest gas station is 13 miles away, and they are out too. We have people that have to drive 30-40 minutes just to get to work. I'm sure they would happily pay $5.00 a gallon right now.

[TheRealNorth]

17. That type of attitude....

Loses elections. Better to emphasize fuel efficiency if you want to reduce oil consumption.

[Miguelito Loveless]

22. It is WAY too late to be saved by fuel efficiency standards

Last edited Thu May 13, 2021, 03:32 PM - Edit history (1)

that are too low, and had too many loopholes. The cost in lives and economic destruction will make the World Wars look like a trip to Disney World.

[TheRealNorth]

107. Well, running on making gas more expensive...

Is a surefire way to lose elections in most places. But, hey, if you want to elect Republicans and plunge us into the abyss, then have at it.

[Miguelito Loveless]

112. We are six inches from the abyss

traveling at 100mph. Stomping on the brakes is pretty pointless. So, the precious gas price will continued to be subsidized, gas taxes will be kept low, people will be re-elected, but the climate will cook us.

[Ferrets are Cool]

18. I would have to close my business.

PERIOD

Yes, Thom Hartmann is correct. We subsidize our gasoline prices with the military, but that doesn't mean that the average American can pay the prices you indicated and not be severely hurt.

[Miguelito Loveless]

21. With accurate external costs

for damage to the atmosphere, people's health and environmental clean up costs, $8-$10 a gallon.

[Strelnikov_]

47. Years ago, mid-2000's

There was a report indicating $10-$15 per gal. just for the military cost of our protection of the petrodollar . . oops . . Persian Gulf police operations.

Not that I want the petrodollar to go away overnight. The shock to the economy would be too great.

Like all addictions, we need to taper off slowly, toward a more sustainable energy and foreign trade.

[Act_of_Reparation]

23. Individual behavior isn't the issue.

But whatever, you've clearly thought a lot about this.

[Renew Deal]

27. The theory of expensive gas being the end of gas has always failed.

People will pay. Now shortages are a different story.

[USALiberal]

28. Not true at all! Nt

[MineralMan]

29. Perhaps that is easy for you to say, but not everyone has

your lifestyle and situation.

I have no errands that involve just a "couple of miles." There is nothing I do that is that close. Further, I'm 75 years old. I could walk two miles, but I'd hurt by the time I got home.

As you say, people commute to work. I don't. I get in my car maybe a couple of times a week, and do multiple errands each time I use it.

Your needs and habits are not necessarily transferable to other people. Our towns and cities are designed around cars and people using those cars to get from one place to another. I live in a large city. We do have mass transit, but the nearest bus stop for me is about a mile away from my house, and any trip to anywhere I need to go would take at least an hour, one-way.

I don't use a lot of gasoline. I fill up maybe once a month. I'm not typical of most people, either, so I don't make broad statements about the price of gasoline at the pump. Other people drive more than I do. I recognize that, and keep those people in mind.

You are oversimplifying this to a large degree.

[USALiberal]

31. +1000! Nt

[Ron Green]

32. You're to be commended for your fuel efficiency.

But we’re subsidizing people who have chosen to do otherwise, and it’s damaging all of us and our planet.

[MineralMan]

34. People live where they live and work where they work.

Until that changes, people will use their cars to go from one place to another.

I'm not opposed to changing how we move around at all. However, I'm also not in favor of using fuel pricing to do that. Too many people have no options for where they live and work.

The problem dates back at least 75 years. After WWII, the housing boom created suburban living, and people began living far away from the places they worked. You can't change that by raising fuel prices. All that will do is put additional financial pressure on people who have no real options available.

Changes like that require decades, actually. The problem has been created over decades, and cannot be solved without long range planning.

[MineralMan]

42. I don't need commendations.

I've worked from my home since 1974. I didn't have any children. I've been doing whatever I can to limit my impact on the planet since my early 20s. That's how I have chosen to live. I am privileged to be able to do that.

However, I know many people for whom having housing and a job means daily commuting. I know others for whom their business requires employees to go from that business location to distant other locations to do work. That is the nature of those businesses. Higher fuel prices mean that those businesses much charge more for the work they do, which impacts the people who hire them.

It's a very complex world we live in, and we rarely understand just how complex it actually is. People brag that they never go out, and then, in the next statement, they talk about ordering things and having them delivered to their door. Every delivery involves fuel being used, even if the delivery vehicle is an electric vehicle, which very few are at this time.

I am privileged to be able to avoid a lot of driving around. My work lets me stay at home. I'm a rare individual in that aspect of my life. So, I don't try to equate my situation with the situations others face.

We all must deal with what we must deal with. Changes affect some people more than others. What you are recommending will affect many people in ways with which they cannot cope.

[Ron Green]

57. OK, forget the commendation.

But the point I’m trying to make is that, despite the damage we’ve been aware of for many, many years, we demand low prices at the pump as our birthright, thereby continuing to exacerbate the problem.

By citing the complexity of the issue, are you seeking to enable it?

[MineralMan]

58. You are aware that the increase in gasoline prices is due

to that pipeline system hack, right?

Clearly, I am not seeking to enable anything. As I said, I've been working on cutting my own impact on the planet all of my adult life. So, of course I'm not doing that.

I am simply explaining that not everyone is privileged enough to suddenly stop driving a car to and from work or other necessary trips. Nothing is simple, is it? While it might seem simple to you or me, that does not mean it's simple for others.

By oversimplifying, are you seeking to minimize the impact on people? See how that works?

[Ron Green]

63. What price per gallon do you think is right?

Are you advocating for no change? Do you think Biden ought to take a hit by seeking a true-cost price? Should he try to bring it down? You are doing the right stuff yourself; does that remove you from having a position?

[MineralMan]

74. Well, a major part of my price per gallon is taxes.

The cost of the actual fuel varies all the time, so I don't know how I'd set a price, really.

I visit gas stations rarely enough that my supermarket rewards card generally gives me about a $1 per gallon discount.

I doubt that it is actually possible to fix gasoline prices. Increasing the tax on gasoline, however, can be done pretty easily.

What should Biden do? That's way above my pay grade. I don't know what he should do with regard to gas prices.

[TheRealNorth]

108. Some people have long commutes because they can't afford to live near their work.

Have you seen housing prices in some or our major cities?

[Ron Green]

110. That's the conundrum we allowed to happen over the decades of the automobile,

especially after WW2. Suburbanization, fueled by cheap gas and fear (white flight and real estate redlining) made the world we thought we wanted but turns out we can’t afford.

There are many other factors, of course, and they all can be explained in terms of the myth of America and its contrast to reality. But cheap gas was always a big part of it.

[obamanut2012]

36. This is such a classist and elitist "argument"

With zero understanding of how most people live.

And, I am so tired of seeing and hearing it on supposed liberal sites.

[Sherman A1]

40. Agreed

Well Said!

[obamanut2012]

41. :)

[Kaleva]

60. I can't afford a car so this discussion is for those well off enough to afford one.

[area51]

62. +1 n/t

[CrackityJones75]

76. Thank you.

[Raine]

88. Exactly 👍 nt

[Hekate]

93. Yes it is

[KentuckyStiffRipple]

100. Your indignation doesn't hide your rationalization.

"I'm poor, so I shouldn't have to make an effort to treat our home well.".

I don't care who you are or how much money you make. You have the same responsibility as me, the OP, and Bill Gates to do what you can to preserve this planet and its natural beauty for future generations of all species on it, including ours. There's no shirking it.

[Azathoth]

43. I guess "defund the police" wasn't sufficient

We need an even more effective way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

[TheRealNorth]

109. +1000

I wonder if some of this crazy shit is just marionetting.

[Strelnikov_]

44. I agree. But it's not good form to lecture the patient during an event, apparently.

Back to the early 2000's, when I educated myself regarding energy supply, as a part of my peak oil studies, my thinking evolved from concern regarding peak oil to the fragility of fossil energy supply due to concentration of the infrastructure.

Yet, every time there is a major price spike due to a disruption in some part of the supply chain, and the effects of a price inelastic (over the short term) fungible commodity waft's across the economy, we simply return to the same behavior once the 'panic' is over.

Guess it is too much to expect our leaders to learn from these events and legislate some resiliency into the energy supply system.

Instead, we are just a like a bunch of baby ducks, every day is a new day!

[Ron Green]

80. The car habit also is not just about fossil fuels.

Our zoning and land-use decisions, starting in the 1920s, have favored single-occupancy travel. Parking lots, 2- and 3-car garages, drive-thru retail commerce, one-way streets through neighborhoods... and on and on. They are so much a part of our world that most people don’t even see them, much less think carefully about how communities, especially those of color, have been decimated to make room for comfortable and convenient vehicle use.

When I was a kid gas was never more than .25 a gallon, and often .19 during “gas wars.” And in East Texas, there were oil wells everywhere - the stuff came out of the earth! No wonder we grew up thinking it was a God-given, unlimited thing.

The light came on for me in 1970 with Earth Day. I realized that this limitless growth on a finite planet could not continue. I later wrote a paper advocating a $.50 a gallon tax to build alternatives, and in 1980 voted for John Anderson (remember him?) who was suggesting something similar.

Here it is 2021, and lots of people on a “progressive” message board are defending cheap gas because it’s how people of limited means get around.

[hunter]

45. Fossil fuels are all too cheap. There's no accounting for the horrors caused by global warming.

Are fossil fuel taxes going to pay for the relocation of entire cities?

Are fossil fuel taxes going to pay for the deaths of billions of people?

Are fossil fuel taxes paying for the death and misery caused by air and water pollution?

No.

[LanternWaste]

83. About as well-sourced as when you alleged...

"Fossil fuel and nuclear power giants use wind power to blow the stink away from their dirtier business..."

[hunter]

84. Did I say that? I like it...

I've possibly changed my mind about nuclear power.

Hybrid natural gas / wind power systems are far more dangerous. They won't save the world.

Without fossil fuels, especially natural gas, solar and wind power are not capable of supporting the lifestyles many affluent people are now accustomed to.

[Happy Hoosier]

48. The answer is to support transition to another form an energy...

... not to make it impossible for working people to afford filling up their car.

[Klaralven]

50. We should have been raising the gas tax by a nickle a year for the last 40 years.

That is a rate of increase that would allow for adjustment in where people work, live, shop, etc.

[kcr]

56. This is such a regressive, elitist, individualistic mindset

There are better ways to effect change than just make everything more expensive for the poor and working class.

[Kaleva]

61. Owning, maintaining and buying gas for a vehicle is already to expensive for me.

Living on SSDI, not having a car is a choice I made so I can have the funds o pay for other things such as internet access and food.

[OAITW r.2.0]

59. We should send SA and other oil producing countries a annual bill for security services rendered.

About $300BB annually for the US Navy to insure that their product gets to market. Sure, they will pass on most of this to the consumer, but then, we get an honest cost comparison between gas and electric.

[Humanist_Activist]

66. Behavior isn't going to change too much until we have infrastructure

For options like pedestrian friendly neighborhoods and reasonable public transportation. Far too much of the country has neither, I live in a relatively high density neighborhood near a largish city and there are no sidewalks in it, the buses don't go everywhere you need to go and are far too few.

[demosincebirth]

68. Come to California. Our prices come close to that.

[Celerity]

70. Move to Sweden

Problem solved

[TheFarseer]

72. People sitting in their car for lunch

With the engine running drives me crazy! Go sit in the lunchroom!

Lots of excuses in this thread and almost zero acknowledgement that we can all do more to curb global warming. Me included. Higher gas prices may be painful but it might force changes in infrastructure and transportation choices available. Much much better would be if we did that voluntarily without higher gas prices as the catalyst.

[Silent3]

77. Adjusted for inflation, the price of gas has averaged out around the same price most of my life

Since production methods have no doubt been streamlined and made far less labor intensive, profits are probably higher now -- although perhaps that's offset my having to drill for harder-to-get-at oil.

Now that I have a Chevy Volt, I have to go out of my way to use up a tank of gas per year, just to make sure the gas in the car doesn't get too stale.

[DFW]

78. I live in the German Rheinland, where in dollars, gasoline costs $7.50 a gallon

The towns, including ours, are very hilly, only the very fittest can navigate them with bicycles. My wife's mom lives in a "you-can't-get-there-from-here" town in the flat farm country of the northwest. To get around town, many people use bicycles, but since there is no public transportation in or out of the town, one either needs a car, or orders a very expensive (about €35) taxi to get to the nearest town with a train station.

Our younger daughter lives in the Taunus hills. There is a tiny train station there with commuter trains down to Frankfurt every half hour during daylight hours. But unless you live smack in the center of town, you need a car.

Over in the Netherlands, bicycles are everywhere, and in the cities and towns, are the preferred mode of transportation. However, for shopping or inter-city travel, they use cars, too. The distances are comparatively short, but door-to-door business, whether for work or for personal reasons, is still usually done by car--a very expensive part of the average person's budget there. I have an office there, speak the language, and am usually there once a week. Bicycles have the right of way everywhere, but they use cars as much as any other country.

[WarGamer]

85. Keep in mind... 10% of the population whips out their AMEX or AA Miles card

And fills the tank until it shuts off...

The rest of the country has to check their bank account on their Banking App to check to see HOW MUCH they can afford to pump.

Gas taxes and Gasoline cost are a BIG PAIN on the working class.

[Raine]

86. There is NO cheap gas here in California! 🙄 nt

[Ron Green]

105. When you think about what a gallon of gas will do -

move a 3,000 pound machine and its occupants 30 or so miles - any price less than that of bottled water is pretty cheap.

[Hekate]

89. How many miles do you want me to walk?

Here in California it’s close to $4/gal. again, but everything’s spread out and as I discovered when I moved here 40+ years ago, mass transit is kind of a joke. And as for the cost — part of it is that we keep agreeing to tax ourselves more for gas.

So, aside from scrapping a century of municipal planning and starting over from scratch, what is the average resident supposed to do? The federal government actually can help by raising taxes and supporting more rail and busses, but as long as the GOP continues it’s destructive ways, it’s not happening.

California, despite my complaints about mass transit, actually has done a good job regulating car emissions and making auto manufacturers comply. As we are a major market, that flows out to markets in the rest of the country. And yet, those GOPpers again — Trump and his pals in Congress wanted to make California stop that unAmerican nonsense.

[ecstatic]

91. lol. I thought about walking to the supermarket today

It's a quarter mile away but... nope. Just because a destination is close doesn't mean it's a pleasant (or safe) walk.

[Ron Green]

95. OP is the kind of person who thinks about how poor people have been

forced into a world of transportation, zoning, consumer credit and cheap gasoline that, after a hundred years, finds them unable to pay the real cost of the fuel they’re required to buy. Electric cars won’t fix the problem. If we really want to address this, we gotta stop economic growth; but that’s definitely another thread.

[Dial H For Hero]

96. Not for me. While I do have a Honda Civic that gets over 40 MPG on the highway, I just purchased a

2009 Cadillac SUV today. I wanted a relatively inexpensive all wheel drive for winter driving and hauling stuff, and it only gets 15 mpg in the city...so the cheaper gas is, the better! I considered a Jeep, but a loaded Cadillac is much more fun than the sorts of Jeeps one can get for $7K.

And to answer your question, I would begin to curtail my driving at around $8 to $10 per gallon.

[canetoad]

98. I'm with you Ron Green

It's both amusing and distressing to see folks try to rationalise and defend the use of fossil fuel.

Petrol here is around $1.40 litre or $5.35 US gallon. I limit myself to about 20 litres a fortnight in a small car but have no problems walking or riding my bike. Just yesterday my doc. commented on my fitness, BP etc. I'm 67. The dog enjoys it too.

[KentuckyStiffRipple]

99. People are going to excuse and rationalize

their way to multiple-degree increases in our planet's temps over the coming decades. They can't see the full damage right in front of them and therefore will do everything they can to find reasons not to act on the danger- certainly not personally.

I appreciate the awareness you're trying to raise, but you saw the reaction even here, on "enlightened" DU. Humanity has not matured enough to be able to effectively confront such a huge issue, and it may never be able to.

[canetoad]

101. Well said.

[BradAllison]

114. "Enlightened" indeed

Don't get a stiff neck keeping your nose so high in the air.

[muriel_volestrangler]

102. International gas prices, all converted to UK pence per litre

https://www.theaa.com/~/media/the-aa/pdf/motoring-advice/fuel-reports/april-2021.pdf?la=en

USA 54.67
Spain 113.92
UK 126.3
Switzerland 129.83
France 131.14
Germany 131.37
Italy 136.27

Basically, it's twice the price or more in Europe.

[Dial H For Hero]

103. Good heavens! My condolences to those paying such prices.

[Ron Green]

104. Thanks for this. Interestingly, the cost of health care in these countries compared to the U.S.

is reversed.

We pay twice as much for health care and half as much for gasoline.

[Mosby]

111. China produces more greenhouse gases than every western country combined.

And our GDP percapita emissions is vastly lower than China.

[Ron Green]

115. Remember when the standard photo of China was thousands of people

on bicycles? In a few short years they’ve become the manufacturer for the U.S., and built a world-class rail system with the money we gave them.

I’m not sure what you mean about the “GDP per capita emissions,” but don’t forget their manufacturing is on our behalf.

There really is no net benefit from the car-based world.