Criticism of Israel seems off limits

[USAFRetired_Liberal]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Spazito (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Why does it feel like any criticism of Israel seems off limits here in the U.S. and immediately met with either “you are anti-Semitic” or “you support terrorists”.....every politician no matter right or left (except for a few) seems to have unwavering support for Israel and act like it can do no wrong and are always the victims...and it seems like Israel knows that and plays off of that treatment to do whatever they want

[snowybirdie]

1. I agree

The current leadership there is not helping them. Israel needs new ideas to succeed.

[USAFRetired_Liberal]

2. Yep

netanyahu seems to think he can do whatever he wants and will be backed by the U.S. (even criticizing our President like he did countless times to Obama)

[MatthewG.]

3. My father was Israeli Air Force and I criticize Israel all the time, as does he.

Last edited Thu May 13, 2021, 10:09 AM - Edit history (1)

My grandparents moved from the Soviet Union to Israel in 1950, back in those days when the two were, while not exactly allies, on relatively decent terms (and back when the American Government still practiced an even-handed approach to the conflict.)

My father served in Israel’s Air Force, as required, before moving to the United States.

I criticize Israel all the time, as does he. There’s a lot to criticize; the treatment of Palestinians has historically been deplorable and continues to be (yes, I think it’s an apartheid state, at least outside of the green line.) There’s also been an import of some of the uglier aspects of American-style conservatism combined with demographic shifts that favor religious orthodoxy, and while of course there are many decent and kind Orthodox Jews, there are also many who subscribe to ugly fundamentalist strains of Judaism.

Nations are not usually moral actors. They’re self-interested entities and governments should normally be viewed with suspicion. Israel’s government is in a somewhat fraught position, despite its relative regional strength, because of the widespread hostilities to its very existence - and while that may make its cruel treatment of Palestinians somewhat understandable, that doesn’t make it forgivable.

The only caveat I’d add is that as progressives we should resist the temptation to ascribe negative stereotypes to Jews generally; there’s been a woeful increase of anti-Semitism on the internet (at times, I can barely say anything about the Middle East conflict without having someone hurl an ethnic slur at me) which I suspect has left many Jews more reticent to criticize Israel than ever, and may have rendered many Gentiles reticent to speak on the subject at all.

[USAFRetired_Liberal]

5. Yes

There’s also been an import of some of the uglier aspects of American-style conservatism

This is what I have noticed...and it seems to be getting worse under Netanyahu.

[roamer65]

18. Netanyahu is the major problem right now.

The fucker is a RW fascist.

[Darwins_Retriever]

4. A few things

1. Israel is the only country in the mid-east that the US can depend on for political and military support.
2. Israel is the only democracy in the mid-east.
3. The Palestinians from day 1 have sought to drive Israel into the sea.
4. The governing party of Gaza is a terrorist organization, with decades of attacks on Israel and even US interests.
5. What would happen if the West Bank was turned over to the Palestinians? Jordan would drive the Palestinians out.

Do you actually think the rockets, terrorist attacks will stop if there was a Palestinian state, Israel withdrew from all occupied territories, and Israel ended the blockade of Gaza (permitting Iran to poor more weapons into Gaza)?

[JI7]

7. There is the issue of Israel continuing to kick Palestinians out of their homes

[Goodheart]

8. Some responses

1. Why do we need them?
2. Can hardly call it a democracy when only a certain class of people are allowed to reside and vote.
3. Who can blame them when their land was stolen to create Israel?
4. As were the American colonists who revolted against the British, I suppose.
5. Say what?

[Elessar Zappa]

11. After the Holocaust, Jewish people needed a homeland.

I see no problem with them returning to their historical homeland. Fortunately, most people know this.

[Goodheart]

12. Says who?

Most people know this? Hardly. Most of the world disagrees.

I used to think the way you do, then I started studying the matter. It was Palestinian homeland, stolen from them.

[PCIntern]

20. Most of Alabama thinks Trump is a great guy.

This is not the venue for this discussion.

[onenote]

22. We live on stolen land too.

You planning to leave?

[Crunchy Frog]

31. Are we still evicting Native Americans from their homes?

If we were, I would absolutely oppose it. There are historical injustices that can't be taken back, but that doesn't make it okay to continue doing them.

Are we forbidding NAs from purchasing property and living in our neighborhoods?

Many people in the past thought that NAs were terrible and "savages" because they resisted, or engaged in violence in reaction to being systematically dispossessed. Many thought that justified their further dispossession and elimination. They brought it on themselves by being violent didn't they?

The answer is no. I would never try to drive anyone from their homes or from their lands and livelihoods. Even if I thought my ancestors had lived there hundreds of years ago, or that God had given it to me.

[treestar]

37. from 1492

but it should still happen in 1948? What could go wrong? It should have been predictable that there would be problems.

[Goodheart]

39. Absolutely not.

By your snarky question I gather that you think that I believe Israel should be dissolved and its citizens expelled, when nothing I've said implied nor insinuated such. There are concessions that Israel can make which would appease many if not most Palestinians, beginning with disbanding the giant prison under which they're occupied.

[Mosby]

45. Jews are indigenous to Israel, Judea and Samaria.

They have been living there continuously for more that 3500 years of recorded history. It's an important aspect of their religious tradition.

Why don't you respect indigenous rights? Do you think American Indian tribes have a right to live on their ancestral homelands? Whats the difference?

Arabs conquered and colonized the middle east and north Africa, starting in 638. Parts of Europe also, is Spain Arab land? Why not?

The Palestinians who came to Israel for work from Egypt and greater Syria in the early part of the 21 century have developed their own identity, which has to be respected, but that doesn't mean that people like you get to pretend that Jews store land from them. Its the EXACT opposite.

[Goodheart]

46. That is so incorrect.

Most Jews that resettled to Israel in 1948 were European Jews of Khazar descent, with bloodlines traceable to Asia Minor, southern Russia, and Ukraine, not to the Palestinian area.

[IL Dem]

25. And what about the Palestinians' homeland?

They have been there all along as well.

[JI7]

6. It's not off limits but the problem is a lot of it IS Anti semitic

if people stuck to the issue that would not be much of a problem . The thing is anything involving Israel or Jewish people will attract Anti Semites and many of them use the issues with Palestinians to push their bigotry . People start spewing conspiracy theories and then attacking any random Jewish people . Like why are people attacking Gal Gadot and other entertainment types ?

[malaise]

9. That's the truth

Shame on this planet

[Bok_Tukalo]

10. Accusations of anti-Semitism is an easy way to marginalize those whose critique of Israel is sharp.

It is effective. So why stop?

[Goodheart]

13. I consider myself anti-Zionist, not anti-Semitic.

[RegularJam]

14. There is a lot of navel gazing on all sides of this in the US.

Always has been.

The Israeli lobby in this country is powerful and has been in operation for a long time.

Israel is a massive asset to us. We get enormous amounts of info from them.

There is also the imagery. Poor little Israel. Easy sell.

Then there is the part about who looks like us and shares our beliefs.

Then there is the part about one side being a civilized society and the other not being.

Of course all of this leads to bullshit arguments and propaganda pushed by way of fallacies.

But it’s clear as day and there isn’t much to be confused about.

[JCMach1]

15. Criticize Israel you are anti-semitic, criticize Palestinians you are a pro-apartheid fascist

[JudyM]

16. Depends what the criticism is and whether it's couched in ugly aspersions, however subtle.

Same as with racism. The subtleties matter because they promote the perpetuation of racism.

Why do you suppose there has been such a dramatic worldwide increase in violence against Jews?

[Wounded Bear]

17. Sad, but true...nt

[maxsolomon]

19. I agree with you on this one.

My elderly Jewish neighbors, one a Holocaust refugee, voted for Trump because HRC had the gall to kinda sorta criticize Israeli Settler policy. They said they had no choice because she would be "bad for Israel".

Toe that AIPAC line or suffer the consequences.

[PCIntern]

21. The vast number of Jews with whom

I come into contact voted happily for Biden and Hillary before him.

[onenote]

23. +1

[USAFRetired_Liberal]

24. Yeah

It’s seems like the American Jewish community is mostly liberal, but their Israeli counterparts are right wingers.

[maxsolomon]

26. That's why it stood out for me.

I know no other Jewish people who voted for him, in my family or in my neighborhood.

But its an example of the backlash that Pols seek to avoid, and why I/P is such a minefield.

[joetheman]

41. There is not necessarily power in numbers but there is power in MONEY! nt

[mountain grammy]

27. My right wing in-laws back Israel

They just can’t spell it.

[murielm99]

28. Most Palestinians have Jordanian passports.

What is Jordan doing to work with the Palestinians? What is our government doing to help the Jordanians?

Those refugee camps look pretty permanent to me. Israel became a country in 1948. Most of the Palestinians were not even born then! How can they be considered refugees?

[Fozzledick]

29. Criticizing them for defending themselves against genocidal totalitarian terrorists ...

... does look awfully suspicious, especially when using hateful vitriolic rhetoric, disingenuous Big Lies, and thinly veiled anti-Semitic tropes.

And doing so when they're when they're under an attack deliberately targeting civilians is hard to explain as anything but support for the aggressor.

Couching it as both-sides-side-are-bad-so-pity-poor-Hamas whataboutism doesn't make it any better.

[USAFRetired_Liberal]

30. I haven't seen any criticism like what you describe

I see stuff like this

Link to tweet

Being met with responses like yours...

[USAFRetired_Liberal]

35. I see what I see

So go on believing what you see and I will believe what I see.....Lol I give you an actual tweet of what I see (being met with responses calling her pro terrorist and anti-Semitic) and you say that’s hard for you to believe..lol....GTFOH

[Goodheart]

40. How can an oppressed people be "totalitarian"?

Did you throw that adjective in just for drama?

[hack89]

43. Hamas rules Gaza with a dictatorial hand

Israel is not making Hamas suppress and kill any and all political opposition.

[Hortensis]

33. Criticize Israel's hard right, and others who go along with them. Like here,

they're behind almost everything bad that happens. There and in every nation. No excuses for the go-along supporters, themselves almost all conservatives plus the odd fringes. It couldn't happen without them.

[mathematic]

34. I see criticism of Israel all the time by people that claim they're not allowed to criticize Israel

I think the real reason you don't see many politicians opposing Israel is because a lot (note: this does not mean all) of the opposition to Israel is driven by people that don't like the United States or "The West" and those types of people just don't get elected to national office. This position incorrectly sees Israel as a European colonial project despite the majority of Israeli Jews having middle eastern heritage. Ironically, I think some of the right wing support for Israel is due to this same misunderstanding.

[Crunchy Frog]

36. Ilhan Omar got got herself in a pile of trouble for basically asking the same thing.

I don't understand it either.

I believe this latest situation was the result of a deliberate provocation by Netanyahu, who knew that a conflict like this would throw his political career a lifeline. Also, I think that cultures can become addicted to perpetual conflict, especially a conflict with a much weaker party. It helps maintain social cohesion in a society where otherwise people would be at each other's throats.

The most informative discussions that I've found on this latest flareup have been on TYT, and Majority Report with Sam Seder. Even though I disagree with both shows on a lot. They seem to not be encumbered by the taboos that dominate elsewhere.

Hope your thread doesn't get locked. This is the subject that's most likely to provoke all out war on DU, which is why it's normally confined to its own little forum.

[USAFRetired_Liberal]

38. I see

Hope your thread doesn't get locked. This is the subject that's most likely to provoke all out war on DU, which is why it's normally confined to its own little forum.

A few people on here really got defensive and testy about my OP, which is exactly the point of my OP...lol

Also the Omar criticism is the reason I brought it up. Seems like she is an easy target to label as anti-Semitic and pro terrorist

[Mosby]

42. Let's look at this one.

Link to tweet

No mention of Sheikh Jarra.

Why does she think it's ok to refuse to pay rent. Those apt buildings have been owned by Jews since 1875. They have the ottoman deed on the properties, and all the owners wanted was SYMBOLIC rent, like 5 bucks/mo.

No mention of the al-Aqsa raid.

What raid? The Palestinians staged rocks and explosives inside the mosque before rioting outside (because no rent to Jews).

No mention of the 13 innocent children killed in air strikes.

Some of the casualties, including children, are being killed by Hamas missles that misfire. She doesn't mention or condemn that. The Israelis allow civilians to evacuate before eliminating Hamas command and control centers.

No mention of the ongoing occupation of millions in an open air prison.

There is NO occupation of Gaza, there are no IDF soldiers there, and not a single Jew. The open air prison as she calls it shares a border with Egypt, which the Egyptian military carefully control, so as not to allow terrorists and criminals access.

You aren’t prioritizing human rights. You’re siding with an oppressive occupation.

A cheap shot at a sitting Democratic President, does she think Biden is a monster like Trump? Who knows.

[USAFRetired_Liberal]

44. Good points, but that doesn't make her anti-Semitic or pro-terrorist

But I like your responses and they are the way to go after her tweet instead of how I see most responses that go with the easy “you are for the terrorists” responses that I normally see

[Spazito]

47. *LOCKING*

Host consensus is that this OP is in contravention of the SOP for this forum:

Posts about Israel/Palestine, religion, guns, showbiz, or sports are restricted in this forum.

Please consider reposting it in the Israel/Palestine Group:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1134