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Sympthsical

(9,046 posts)
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 11:07 AM Aug 2021

Today I learned everyone was against the Afghan war from the beginning

I mean, 88% support when we went in.

But yes, everyone knew right from the start it was a bad idea and wanted nothing to do with it.

I wonder if people are just muddling Afghanistan with Iraq in their memories.

Because the American people, Republicans and Democrats, very much wanted in there after 9/11. Now, even journalists, who are getting called out left and right, are going, "We knew it was a bad idea and opposed it . . ." Johnny, roll the tape.

People do know the Internet exists, right? That there's video and posts and web pages that go back to 2001?

This is like me going growing my hair out and declaring I have always been against short hair. There are, you know, pictures.

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Today I learned everyone was against the Afghan war from the beginning (Original Post) Sympthsical Aug 2021 OP
So infuriating! Dr. Shepper Aug 2021 #1
In the end, only time. maxsolomon Aug 2021 #38
At the time, Afghanistan made a lot more sense than Iraq. But OCCUPYING a country is a mistake, Hoyt Aug 2021 #2
Yes I agree, most of the coalition countries Bev54 Aug 2021 #35
We all were for snowybirdie Aug 2021 #3
Yes, I was for it, or at least I wasn't against it. Haggard Celine Aug 2021 #14
Yeah I think many are confusing Iraq with Afghanistan. honest.abe Aug 2021 #4
nobodys confusing anything Blues Heron Aug 2021 #7
Anyone says they were against the war from the beginning. honest.abe Aug 2021 #10
Nobody's confusing the Iraq war with the Afghanistan war Blues Heron Aug 2021 #12
Did you see the link in my post. honest.abe Aug 2021 #16
Thats not confusion - those were anti war protests Blues Heron Aug 2021 #20
I was there.. the vast majority of protestors were about Iraq. honest.abe Aug 2021 #22
I think we'll just have to chalk this up to a Blues Heron Aug 2021 #23
LOL honest.abe Aug 2021 #24
LOL SmittyWerben Aug 2021 #31
Indeed. honest.abe Aug 2021 #33
Assertions rather than facts. LanternWaste Aug 2021 #73
We turned out in what numbers we could muster. Emrys Aug 2021 #52
I know there were some people against the war initially but the vast majority were not. honest.abe Aug 2021 #60
I think you're reaching with this guff about "flushing out bin Laden" Emrys Aug 2021 #65
He was flushed out of Afghanistan months after the invasion. That is a fact not guff. honest.abe Aug 2021 #66
As a justification for what was done by the Bush regime/PNAC, it IS guff. Emrys Aug 2021 #71
My only argument for justification is for the initial invasion of Afghanistan. honest.abe Aug 2021 #74
You talked about "confusion" earlier. Emrys Aug 2021 #78
You are confused about my comments. honest.abe Aug 2021 #79
I don't think so. Emrys Aug 2021 #80
Let me explain. honest.abe Aug 2021 #81
That sense of urgency didn't stretch to tackling the country that actually supplied Emrys Aug 2021 #83
That's another topic that isnt directly relevant to the issue being discussed. honest.abe Aug 2021 #84
It's actually the very root of the issue. n/t Emrys Aug 2021 #85
Nope. Many of us remembered the 9-year quagmire that was the Soviet-Afghan War. GoCubsGo Aug 2021 #41
So no need to go after Bin laden? honest.abe Aug 2021 #43
Where did I say that? GoCubsGo Aug 2021 #45
The question being discussed is were you against the war from the beginning. honest.abe Aug 2021 #46
Yes, I know what the question was. GoCubsGo Aug 2021 #47
Perhaps you are right but at the time most Americans wanted to get him and get him quickly. honest.abe Aug 2021 #61
Most Americans would have been fine if he was gotten the way they got him. GoCubsGo Aug 2021 #62
What "lies"?? honest.abe Aug 2021 #63
They lied about knowing what they were doing there. GoCubsGo Aug 2021 #67
That had nothing to do with convincing the American people of the justification for the war. honest.abe Aug 2021 #68
This message was self-deleted by its author GoCubsGo Aug 2021 #70
I was responding to your mistaken assertions. honest.abe Aug 2021 #72
9/11 had happened and revenge had to be taken. Steelrolled Aug 2021 #51
There were multiple choices. GoCubsGo Aug 2021 #53
There might have been other military options. Steelrolled Aug 2021 #55
It' wasn't the only choice. Just the most politically expedient one. GoCubsGo Aug 2021 #56
Yeah, the predictions were dire, that the US would be bogged down in Steelrolled Aug 2021 #58
WTF Skittles Aug 2021 #88
OBL and Al-Qaeda were targeted from the start. Steelrolled Aug 2021 #89
seemed to me like the focus shifted off of Bin Laden very quickly Skittles Aug 2021 #90
Yeah, the fact that we couldn't find and kill OBL was Steelrolled Aug 2021 #92
NOT ME Skittles Aug 2021 #87
9/11 was Saudi's. That's who we should have bombed SoonerPride Aug 2021 #5
That's so true. It was Saudi Arabia that financed 9/11 and Al Qaeda. Bin Laden's dad BComplex Aug 2021 #15
There were some of us opposed to the Afghanistan invasion UpInArms Aug 2021 #17
👆 This. nt crickets Aug 2021 #49
Ten years after we invaded Afghanistan. CentralMass Aug 2021 #30
Should have gone in, gotten the job done Tomconroy Aug 2021 #6
Well, to be fair, most did not know we'd be there for 20 years. MoonRiver Aug 2021 #8
I just edited in a Gallup graph Sympthsical Aug 2021 #9
And it's especially bad among Repugs. MoonRiver Aug 2021 #21
It will be the same with Trump Chainfire Aug 2021 #11
I supported the war with the Taliban, I did not support the war with Iraq, diverting troops and Shellback Squid Aug 2021 #13
+1 Mad_Machine76 Aug 2021 #28
I wanted this strictly as a police action going after a criminal. DinahMoeHum Aug 2021 #18
punishing the Taliban stopdiggin Aug 2021 #19
20 years is so long a time that people treestar Aug 2021 #25
This week I learned UnderThisLaw Aug 2021 #26
I supported it Mad_Machine76 Aug 2021 #27
Our involvement in the Soviet-Afghan war and it's aftermath lead to the power vacuum that allowed CentralMass Aug 2021 #32
I don't disagree Mad_Machine76 Aug 2021 #36
I remember Delphinus Aug 2021 #29
Compare the number of people claiming to have been at Woodstock or the Selma March MichMan Aug 2021 #34
I begrudgingly supported going after Bin Laden but if I remember right, we sent in chowder66 Aug 2021 #37
Thanks for this post. maxsolomon Aug 2021 #39
+1 honest.abe Aug 2021 #40
Kind of like the Woodstock Festival. BeckyDem Aug 2021 #42
I supported the initial attacks on the Taliban bluecollar2 Aug 2021 #44
Glad to be "six percenter." David__77 Aug 2021 #48
Thank you for reminding everyone. Steelrolled Aug 2021 #50
15 of the hijackers were Saudi, 2 from the UAR, 1 from Lebanon and 1 from Egypt. panader0 Aug 2021 #54
Well said Sunsky Aug 2021 #59
I don't know about everyone Sunsky Aug 2021 #57
necessary evil manicdem Aug 2021 #64
I may have supported it at first AZProgressive Aug 2021 #69
When we went in, I thought Bettie Aug 2021 #75
The entire affair is an excellent example of mission creep. BannonsLiver Aug 2021 #76
I have been against almost everything we have done since 1964. marie999 Aug 2021 #77
I well remember Barbara Lee being the lone vote in Congress against authorization of military force betsuni Aug 2021 #82
I was NOT among the 90% who rallied around Dubya Skittles Aug 2021 #86
Hundreds of thousands of us demonstrated against it in San Francisco lunatica Aug 2021 #91

Dr. Shepper

(3,014 posts)
1. So infuriating!
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 11:12 AM
Aug 2021

Especially those of us who were protesting these wars from the very beginning. So many deaths - and for what?

maxsolomon

(33,255 posts)
38. In the end, only time.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 01:36 PM
Aug 2021

We and our allies bought time, 19 years, for Afghanistan to have some semblance of civil society. Women to attend school, kites to be flown again, music to be played, Buddhist statues to not be destroyed.

It's not enough, I know.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
2. At the time, Afghanistan made a lot more sense than Iraq. But OCCUPYING a country is a mistake,
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 11:12 AM
Aug 2021

every time.

Bev54

(10,040 posts)
35. Yes I agree, most of the coalition countries
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 12:43 PM
Aug 2021

went into Afghanistan with the US to get rid of AL Qaeda and most of us (Canadian) pulled our troops out after several years because we were not there for a forever war, the mission was completed. We did not agree with the invasion of Iraq and did not participate. I think people are getting their countries and missions mixed up.

snowybirdie

(5,221 posts)
3. We all were for
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 11:13 AM
Aug 2021

going in and getting the men who planned 9/11 and were hiding there. Our mistake was letting them get away, and staying for 20 years with no real exit plan. Good in the beginning but awful now!

Haggard Celine

(16,843 posts)
14. Yes, I was for it, or at least I wasn't against it.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 11:33 AM
Aug 2021

I thought they were going to go in there and capture the bad guys. I thought they might have to drop some bombs, and they did, but things were really vague past that point. I didn't consider at the time how much time we would spend there. It really didn't cross my mind.

honest.abe

(8,640 posts)
4. Yeah I think many are confusing Iraq with Afghanistan.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 11:17 AM
Aug 2021

Iraq war started in 2003.. Afghanistan started in 2001. Most Americans agreed with Afghanistan war during the early years. The Iraq war was protested by millions even before it started.

honest.abe

(8,640 posts)
10. Anyone says they were against the war from the beginning.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 11:27 AM
Aug 2021

Is either confused or they are part of a very tiny percentage of people against the war at that point. The vast majority agreed with it.

Here’s an example of the confusion..

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=15740478

honest.abe

(8,640 posts)
16. Did you see the link in my post.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 11:36 AM
Aug 2021

That person was referring to protests in 2003. The Afghanistan war started in 2001. Those protests in 2003 were about Iraq. I was there.

Blues Heron

(5,931 posts)
20. Thats not confusion - those were anti war protests
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 11:47 AM
Aug 2021

Against the Bush war machine that was out of control. Nobody is confusing Iraq with Afghanistan - that's ludicrous.

honest.abe

(8,640 posts)
22. I was there.. the vast majority of protestors were about Iraq.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 11:54 AM
Aug 2021

Afghanistan war at that point was seen as being incredibly successful. The Taliban had collapsed and US was already talking about ending major conflict and establishing new government with free elections and rebuilding the country. There wasn’t much negative news about Afghanistan at that point and few were against it.

SmittyWerben

(823 posts)
31. LOL
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 12:29 PM
Aug 2021

You present facts then get dismissed. Interesting to see on DU since that seems to be the tactic of another party.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
73. Assertions rather than facts.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 05:40 PM
Aug 2021

It's easy to confuse the two when our bias depends on doing so. Even easier when presented with anecdotal evidence.

Emrys

(7,224 posts)
52. We turned out in what numbers we could muster.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 03:10 PM
Aug 2021

We were not at all confused, and I deeply resent your claiming that we were, as I resented those who pooh-poohed our serious concerns at the time. We just saw the writing on the wall. That would come to fruition later in the war on Iraq, when many more turned out to demonstrate, but again to no avail.

But yes, they were desolate demonstrations against the grain of public opinion while the US was consumed by the desire for revenge for 9/11. It's just one of those occasions over the past half-century or so where the ability to say "told you so" is no consolation.

The proposed invasion of Afghanistan prompted protests with mass demonstrations in the days leading up to the war's official launch on October 7, 2001, the continuations of the war in Afghanistan has lead many to further protest and voice their opposition to hostilities.

On September 29, 2001, as many as 20,000 people demonstrated in Washington, D.C., United States, denouncing the impending United States invasion of Afghanistan. The protests were organized by the recently formed A.N.S.W.E.R. coalition. Thousands gathered at Meridian Hill Park (Malcolm X Park) and marched downtown, while elsewhere members of the Anti-Capitalist Convergence clashed briefly with police on their way to Edward R. Murrow Park, across from the headquarters of the World Bank and the IMF. Both groups of marchers converged on a rally at the Freedom Plaza.

In San Francisco almost 10,000 people converged on a park in San Francisco's Mission District to denounce the Bush administration's plans for military intervention in Afghanistan.

In Los Angeles roughly 2,500 protesters marched through the streets of Westwood.

In New York City 3,000 to 5,000 people took part in a peace march at Union Square.
...
In Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom, around 1,500 people gathered in George Square for a rally against the military action in Afghanistan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_war_in_Afghanistan


I was part of the Glasgow demonstration.

Your questions downthread "... no need to go after Bin laden? Just let him go and hope he behaves and no more 9/11’s?" echo the ridicule we faced all too often at the time. After a few decades of it, it's water off a duck's back. Bin Laden was not killed or captured as a result of the military action. The fact there have been "no more 9/11's" is a matter of good fortune.

Your trumpeted "success" of the early Afghanistan years encouraged the Bush II administration and the PNAC to their follies in Iraq. That success looks pretty hollow now, huh?

honest.abe

(8,640 posts)
60. I know there were some people against the war initially but the vast majority were not.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 04:16 PM
Aug 2021

If you believe the polling at the time it was 90+ percent approval. I agreed with it at the time and still think it was the right decision based on the situation. Clearly staying there 20 years was a mistake but few thought that would happen back then.

Also, one could argue flushing Bin laden out of Afghanistan into Pakistan ultimately helped find and kill him. So just that could be a justification for the war.

Also, there were early success stories out of Afghanistan. The Taliban were forced out. There were elections. Women rights restored. Reconstruction started. Of course it all fell apart when the Taliban regained strength and the Afghans themselves didnt fight back.

I still think many are not remembering how they felt back then. Clearly you and those who protested with you are an exception.

Emrys

(7,224 posts)
65. I think you're reaching with this guff about "flushing out bin Laden"
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 05:11 PM
Aug 2021

as a post-justification for the Bush regime/PNAC's opportunistic actions.

The military action in Afghanistan began in 2001. Bin Laden was ultimately killed in 2011.

That's a heckuva long flush!

It's almost as if there was little interest in bin Laden's whereabouts and survival in the intervening years. A cynic might say that's because he'd served his purpose and was of no further interest or use.

We were a tiny percentage as an opposition. We knew we were banging our heads against a brick wall at the time, but we still turned out and argued vociferously against the tactics adopted, the ignoring of Saudi Arabians' roles in the 9/11 attacks, and the total lack of an exit strategy beyond "ach, it'll all work out" (that last argument would be reprised for Iraq not long after).

"The vast majority agreed with it" was what we were up against. Vast majorities have been in favour of all sorts of things throughout history. Some of them have led to wrongs we're struggling to right to this day.

Anyway, as some replies under the OP show, quite a few who were in favour of some sort of action against al Qaeda (conflated with Afghanistan) were not necessarily in favour of the form of action that was taken.

honest.abe

(8,640 posts)
66. He was flushed out of Afghanistan months after the invasion. That is a fact not guff.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 05:18 PM
Aug 2021
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-14190032

If he had not been "flushed" out he would likely have remained in his well protected Tora Bora cave complex in Afghanistan.

Yeah it took a long time to finally get him but flushing him out of his cave likely helped.

Emrys

(7,224 posts)
71. As a justification for what was done by the Bush regime/PNAC, it IS guff.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 05:36 PM
Aug 2021

"Flushing him out" as was done just meant he was able to find safe harbour elsewhere, and almost certainly better access to communications and a degree of free movement - which it's notable he didn't put to more destructive purpose (for which we should all be thankful).

The fact he didn't is not because of the "success" of the adventurism in Afghanistan. Within a couple of years all the focus was on Saddam and Iraq as the PNAC steamrollered on, as many of we demonstrators had feared, and bin Laden just conveniently disappeared.

honest.abe

(8,640 posts)
74. My only argument for justification is for the initial invasion of Afghanistan.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 05:42 PM
Aug 2021

As the vast majority of Americans agreed with as well. There were legitimate reasons to invade regardless of who was president. The entire 20 year war was clearly a mistake.

Emrys

(7,224 posts)
78. You talked about "confusion" earlier.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 06:15 PM
Aug 2021

Now you're sounding as confused as those braggarts who assured us that "shock and awe" was all that was required in modern warfare in the Middle East and there was no need to commit feet on the ground in significant numbers for extended periods.

That was Rumsfeld's doctrine. It allowed bin Laden to escape when he wasn't killed in the initial strikes, just as porous borders became a treacherous bidirectional problem in Iraq later.

There were arguably grounds for seeking out, and killing if necessary, bin Laden (and his associates/allies, unless the idea is he was a one-man army).

That did not require invading and taking control over the whole of Afghanistan. The subsequent failure of nation-building had happened often enough in the past that it should have been utterly predictable, along with the dangers of becoming entrenched in yet another unwinnable ground war, which America should know all about.

But a different course of action wouldn't have served the PNAC's agenda. The "legitimate reasons" were a smokescreen for it.

honest.abe

(8,640 posts)
79. You are confused about my comments.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 06:41 PM
Aug 2021

My simple point is that there were clear justifications for invading Afghanistan and most of America agreed with it.. including the vast majority of Democrats. Denying that now is like reinventing history.

Emrys

(7,224 posts)
80. I don't think so.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 06:51 PM
Aug 2021

I'm pointing out there was arguably justification for some action, but you keep claiming that invasion was justified, and that seems to be the beginning and end of it for you.

I'm then pointing out the problems with invading a country on a grand scale and half-heartedly trying to refashion it without devoting the vast resources that would be necessary even if success was possible.

Invading's the easy part. It seldom stops there (which is why folks like me keep banging on about exit strategies whenever the latest invasion or war with our countries' involvement becomes a prospect). Certainly not in historical flashpoints like Afghanistan. It has knock-on effects, mission creep, the sunk cost fallacy comes into play. And before you know it, 20 years have passed.

honest.abe

(8,640 posts)
81. Let me explain.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 06:57 PM
Aug 2021

There was a serious sense of urgency as we thought there might be more 9/11's in the planning stages. Can you imagine the outcry if we didnt go after Bin laden quickly and forcefully and then another terror event happened?

No one was thinking 10 or 20 years ahead. That was not part of the decision making and rightly so. Action had to be taken immediately.

Furthermore we could have left at any point years later but no one had guts to do it until Joe Biden.

Emrys

(7,224 posts)
83. That sense of urgency didn't stretch to tackling the country that actually supplied
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 07:22 PM
Aug 2021

most of the terrorists involved in 9/11 and much of bin Laden's funding. That wasn't Afghanistan.

"Going after" bin Laden ended up being purely performative - I'm sure it looked impressive on TV. Then it went on the back burner for 10 years.

So by your logic, where was the outcry when the seriously urgent quick and forceful immediate attempt to bomb bin Laden out of existence failed miserably?

GoCubsGo

(32,076 posts)
41. Nope. Many of us remembered the 9-year quagmire that was the Soviet-Afghan War.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 01:48 PM
Aug 2021

We heard and read all about the MASSIVE death and destruction on both sides, all for nothing. We saw it contribute to the collapse of the USSR. All for nothing. We knew the waste of blood and treasure would be inevitable for us, too. And, so it was.

GoCubsGo

(32,076 posts)
45. Where did I say that?
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 02:01 PM
Aug 2021

Remind me where Bin Laden was captured and killed, and how that was done. (Hint: Not in Afghanistan. Not with an entire army's worth of troops.) Not to mention that he has been dead for years. So, why the fuck were we still there all these years later????

honest.abe

(8,640 posts)
46. The question being discussed is were you against the war from the beginning.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 02:06 PM
Aug 2021

Based on most intelligence reports Bin laden was still in Afghanistan when the war first started. He escaped at some point to Pakistan.

GoCubsGo

(32,076 posts)
47. Yes, I know what the question was.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 02:32 PM
Aug 2021

Some of us just don't believe that starting a war in that hellhole was the way to go about getting him. And, it turns out, that's not how they got him--not even after 10 years of being there.

honest.abe

(8,640 posts)
61. Perhaps you are right but at the time most Americans wanted to get him and get him quickly.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 04:22 PM
Aug 2021

There was a serious sense of urgency as we thought there might be more 9/11's in the planning stages. Can you imagine the outcry if we didnt go after him quickly and forcefully and then another terror event happened?

GoCubsGo

(32,076 posts)
62. Most Americans would have been fine if he was gotten the way they got him.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 04:27 PM
Aug 2021

Without all the bloodshed and looting of our treasury. They were whipped up into wanting a war with a bunch of lies, just like they were with Iraq. Lots of people wanted us to nuke the place, too. Just because lots of people want something, it doesn't make it right.

honest.abe

(8,640 posts)
63. What "lies"??
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 04:30 PM
Aug 2021

Bin laden was there. The Taliban did harbor him. There were AQ training camps in Afghanistan.

Where were the lies??

GoCubsGo

(32,076 posts)
67. They lied about knowing what they were doing there.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 05:18 PM
Aug 2021

They had no fucking idea what they were getting us into, while pretending otherwise:

“We were devoid of a fundamental understanding of Afghanistan — we didn’t know what we were doing,” Douglas Lute, a three-star Army general who served as the White House’s Afghan war czar during the Bush and Obama administrations, told government interviewers in 2015. He added: “What are we trying to do here? We didn’t have the foggiest notion of what we were undertaking.”


https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/afghanistan-war-confidential-documents/

honest.abe

(8,640 posts)
68. That had nothing to do with convincing the American people of the justification for the war.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 05:21 PM
Aug 2021

The justification was based on the three things I posted before:

-- Bin laden was there.
-- The Taliban did harbor him.
-- There were AQ training camps in Afghanistan.

That was enough for me and most other Americans.

Response to honest.abe (Reply #68)

honest.abe

(8,640 posts)
72. I was responding to your mistaken assertions.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 05:37 PM
Aug 2021

I still think many are not remembering clearly how they felt back then. That assertion remains.

 

Steelrolled

(2,022 posts)
51. 9/11 had happened and revenge had to be taken.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 02:56 PM
Aug 2021

There was no real political choice but to go into Afghanistan and kill some people. And it went reasonably well at the start. But then the mission creep started.

GoCubsGo

(32,076 posts)
53. There were multiple choices.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 03:15 PM
Aug 2021

Including intelligence-gathering and surgical strikes. Which is what wound up getting Bin Laden--TEN fucking years later. Bush chose poorly.

 

Steelrolled

(2,022 posts)
55. There might have been other military options.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 03:22 PM
Aug 2021

But I remember that time very clearly, and the public wanted boots on the ground kicking ass. And that is what they got, and as I remember it went much better than predicted (for a while).

GoCubsGo

(32,076 posts)
56. It' wasn't the only choice. Just the most politically expedient one.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 03:27 PM
Aug 2021

And, the most gutless one. Also, "better than predicted" isn't saying much.

 

Steelrolled

(2,022 posts)
58. Yeah, the predictions were dire, that the US would be bogged down in
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 03:40 PM
Aug 2021

a quagmire from the start. Turned out the first overt military action was several weeks after 9/11 and the Taliban government had collapsed before Thanksgiving (I think). And I believe there was a lot of help from the Afghanis (Northern Alliance). The quagmire came later.

Skittles

(153,134 posts)
88. WTF
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 07:48 PM
Aug 2021

um....NO

Bin Laden should have been targeted from the start - the rest was utter bullshit

IT WAS SAUDI ARABIA WHO FINANCED THE HIJACKERS, NOT AFGHANISTAN.

 

Steelrolled

(2,022 posts)
89. OBL and Al-Qaeda were targeted from the start.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 08:56 PM
Aug 2021

They were in Afghanistan and the US military had people there within a couple weeks. Without 100% cooperation from the Taliban (an impossibility) the Afghanistan government would have to be toppled along the way. No one cared about the human rights of the Afghans or whether girls could go to school.

I remember the mood of people, and the desire for retribution, like it was yesterday. What was going to happen was not complicated and it was 100% predictable. The president was just the mouthpiece.

Skittles

(153,134 posts)
90. seemed to me like the focus shifted off of Bin Laden very quickly
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 09:03 PM
Aug 2021

and it utterly sickened me how many people went along with the insanity

 

Steelrolled

(2,022 posts)
92. Yeah, the fact that we couldn't find and kill OBL was
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 09:14 PM
Aug 2021

hurting Bush politically, and so he tried to deemphasize it publicly. But now we know it was still a super high priority objective internally.

I recently heard about a survey about the atomic bomb and Japan, taken around that time. About 25% of Americans wished we could have dropped many more. There was some of that emotion going on when it came to Afghanistan in 2001/2002.

Skittles

(153,134 posts)
87. NOT ME
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 07:47 PM
Aug 2021

I always knew it was fool's errand.....I watched in dismay as America rallied around that warmongering piece of SHIT Dubya.

SoonerPride

(12,286 posts)
5. 9/11 was Saudi's. That's who we should have bombed
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 11:19 AM
Aug 2021

And sent black ops troops to find Bin Laden

Which is what we did to kill him.

BComplex

(8,028 posts)
15. That's so true. It was Saudi Arabia that financed 9/11 and Al Qaeda. Bin Laden's dad
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 11:34 AM
Aug 2021

owned the largest construction company in Saudi Arabia, and was related to the royal family there. Saudi Arabia has been trying to destroy the US for generations...in spite of the oil companies insisting that they are our "allies". All lies.

UpInArms

(51,280 posts)
17. There were some of us opposed to the Afghanistan invasion
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 11:38 AM
Aug 2021

Seeing as how most of those involved were from Saudi Arabia … including osama bin laden

Just because bin laden was holed up in Afghanistan, did not make all those people a part of 911

The bush/Cheney mob wanted war … see the PNAC papers … look at who signed them … they wanted Clinton to attack Iraq …

Folks try to conflate who was behind all of it …

The NYTs was rah rah-ing and every corporate news whore was creaming their jeans at the ratings that war would get them

 

Tomconroy

(7,611 posts)
6. Should have gone in, gotten the job done
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 11:21 AM
Aug 2021

And then left after a year or so.
A lesson to be learned for the future. It wouldn't surprise me if we have to do it again.

Sympthsical

(9,046 posts)
9. I just edited in a Gallup graph
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 11:25 AM
Aug 2021

Americans largely haven't been nearly so reflective over time as they are now claiming they were.

I just hate bandwagon revisionism. It's all over the place this weekend.

MoonRiver

(36,926 posts)
21. And it's especially bad among Repugs.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 11:48 AM
Aug 2021

Apparently Keven McCarthy threw a real temper tantrum against Biden during the House briefing today. Like his side wasn't all over this situation!

Chainfire

(17,491 posts)
11. It will be the same with Trump
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 11:28 AM
Aug 2021

In a few years, no one will have ever supported him. At the end of WWII, you could not find a dozen Nazis in all of Germany...

After we are gone from Afghanistan, the Republicans will try to sponsor another attack to pin on the Afghan people in order to blame Biden for the withdrawal before the next election. Wait for it.

Perhaps the next time the Saudis attack us, we can make war on Canada or Mexico to save the enormous shipping cost of fighting on the other side of the world.

Shellback Squid

(8,914 posts)
13. I supported the war with the Taliban, I did not support the war with Iraq, diverting troops and
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 11:33 AM
Aug 2021

supplies from Afghanistan to go to war with Iraq before we accomplished our objectives left us open to failure at
the outset, fuck bush* fuck cheney, fuck condoleeza, and I hope rumsfeld is in that special place in hell.

DinahMoeHum

(21,781 posts)
18. I wanted this strictly as a police action going after a criminal.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 11:39 AM
Aug 2021

Anything beyond that, unh unh.

That part of the world ain't no place for a regular army.

The minute Bush did that and expanded it. . .pfft!

stopdiggin

(11,274 posts)
19. punishing the Taliban
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 11:43 AM
Aug 2021

had almost universal backing (U.S. and international). Occupation and 'nation building' also had strong support - for a while.

Revisionist history doesn't really help. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if the current "should never have been .." narrative is any more sound, or helpful. Monday morning quarterbacking is cheap and easy - foreign policy (and yes, every great country has to have one) a whole lot less so.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
25. 20 years is so long a time that people
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 12:01 PM
Aug 2021

who were too young to follow it when it started now have opinions and others have forgotten.

UnderThisLaw

(318 posts)
26. This week I learned
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 12:04 PM
Aug 2021

that we should stay in Afghanistan to protect the rights of its women, but other countries with similar abuses aren’t worth mentioning

Mad_Machine76

(24,396 posts)
27. I supported it
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 12:07 PM
Aug 2021

But only insofar as it was to get rid of Al-Queda and the Taliban Government that harbored them. But Bush fumbled and here we are 20 years later (!) with very little to show for it. Al-Queda is largely smashed and Bin Laden is long gone but we accomplished very little else.

CentralMass

(15,265 posts)
32. Our involvement in the Soviet-Afghan war and it's aftermath lead to the power vacuum that allowed
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 12:29 PM
Aug 2021

Taliban to originally take control of the country. It looks in the end we hav haven't gained much ground.

Delphinus

(11,828 posts)
29. I remember
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 12:07 PM
Aug 2021

when we first bombed them, I called my Mom, crying, asking why! I know I wrote letters to congress, etc., about this, telling them I did not want us there, and not a one of them listened.

I fear for anyone left there that will be "living" under Taliban rule. I fear and weep.

MichMan

(11,883 posts)
34. Compare the number of people claiming to have been at Woodstock or the Selma March
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 12:32 PM
Aug 2021

with the numbers of those who were actually there

chowder66

(9,060 posts)
37. I begrudgingly supported going after Bin Laden but if I remember right, we sent in
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 01:27 PM
Aug 2021

special teams to Afghanistan to get him but then basically ended that mission to focus on Iraq. I think they needed more troops and didn't get them and Bin Laden escaped to Pakistan. That is when I remember thinking WTF and was against everything that came after.

maxsolomon

(33,255 posts)
39. Thanks for this post.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 01:38 PM
Aug 2021

So much 20/20 hindsight and Binary Judgment on DU: "we should NEVER have been there", etc.

We had a damn good reason. 9/11 is a damn good reason.


BeckyDem

(8,361 posts)
42. Kind of like the Woodstock Festival.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 01:52 PM
Aug 2021

So many people claim to have been there, if it were true, the size of the crowd would be in the millions. lol

Are you really surprised by this? I doubt it. The journos doing it are a disgrace.

bluecollar2

(3,622 posts)
44. I supported the initial attacks on the Taliban
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 02:00 PM
Aug 2021

For refusing to give up Bin Laden and providing safe haven for Al Qaeda.

We took our eye off the ball going after Iraq. We should have spent the money on Afghanistan and giving Pakistan a swift kick in the ass for aiding and abetting....

I feel for the people of Afghanistan. They are going to be tested.

 

Steelrolled

(2,022 posts)
50. Thank you for reminding everyone.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 02:52 PM
Aug 2021

There was high bipartisan support. 9/11 had just happened, and we were out for revenge.

And we fairly successful in getting rid of Al-Qaeda. When we finally killed OBL, we should have started the move out.

It would have been perfect timing for Obama but he didn't take advantage of it. Huge missed opportunity.

panader0

(25,816 posts)
54. 15 of the hijackers were Saudi, 2 from the UAR, 1 from Lebanon and 1 from Egypt.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 03:18 PM
Aug 2021

So let's invade Afghanistan! The reason was that the hijackers had trained there, perhaps with
Bin Laden, who the US supported when he was with the Mujahideen fighting the Soviets.
Don't forget, Mohammed Atta trained in Florida as well and a couple hijackers trained in Arizona
to learn how to fly. There are many parts of this story that have not been revealed.
Why did the US let Osama Bin Laden escape from Torah Bora?
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=15737603
I must have been in the 12% that did not support going into Afghanistan.

Sunsky

(1,737 posts)
59. Well said
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 03:52 PM
Aug 2021

Don't forget the Bin Laden family and other Saudi nationals were allowed the flee the country after 9-11.

Sunsky

(1,737 posts)
57. I don't know about everyone
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 03:28 PM
Aug 2021

But I was against it. I have been very vocal about my opposition then and throughout the years. I didn't think we should harm innocent people because of the actions of their leaders. It would only further destabilize the region. Al-Qaeda attacked us on 9-11, not the Afghan people or the Taliban. But, I must say that I'm generally anti-war, so that may have shaped my point of view. Plus, I have been a longtime Randi Rhodes listener and she would talk about the tumultuous history of the region. I've been listening to leftwing talk radio since I was a teenager, and I remember many callers opposing the Afghan war, given its history.

manicdem

(387 posts)
64. necessary evil
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 04:41 PM
Aug 2021

Invading and occupying Afghanistan was needed to stop, or at least hold off, Al Qaeda. 9/11 wasn't the only Al Qaeda attack, they have been bombing and attacking American and other countries all of the world.

We're not seeing the results if we didn't invade. If we did airstrikes instead of invasion, it would have limited effects on the Taliban and Al Qaeda and they would be even more emboldened to attack cowardly Americans. The chart in the OP would be very different if they did a 2nd 9/11 scale attack.

AZProgressive

(29,322 posts)
69. I may have supported it at first
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 05:32 PM
Aug 2021

But I was only 15 when 9/11 happened. Looking back I prefer the peace and prosperity of the 90s.

 

marie999

(3,334 posts)
77. I have been against almost everything we have done since 1964.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 06:04 PM
Aug 2021

I was against the war in Vietnam while I was in the army, I was against invading Grenada, I was against invading Afghanistan, and I was against invading Iraq. I was for Kuwait since we basically told Saddam it was okay if he invaded Kuwait.

betsuni

(25,403 posts)
82. I well remember Barbara Lee being the lone vote in Congress against authorization of military force
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 07:10 PM
Aug 2021

in Afghanistan.

Skittles

(153,134 posts)
86. I was NOT among the 90% who rallied around Dubya
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 07:46 PM
Aug 2021

I KNEW he would use 9/11 as an excuse to start senseless wars

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
91. Hundreds of thousands of us demonstrated against it in San Francisco
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 09:09 PM
Aug 2021

We also demonstrated against the Iraq war in San Francisco.

I remember demonstrations all over the US and the world. Big ones.

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