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Claustrum

(4,845 posts)
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 05:45 PM Oct 2021

It looks like ex-president has the right to claim executive privilege for conversations they had

during their term.

Since a few posters and video claimed that ex-president cannot use executive privilege for conversations during his/her term, I personally disagree with the rational even though I think Trump is using the executive privilege wrong. I've asked a few times if my assumption is correct but got no direct answer. I went to do some digging on google. The answer seem to be a gray one, at least it is not tested in court yet. Here is an article from lawfare:

https://www.lawfareblog.com/can-former-president-assert-executive-privilege-impeachment-trial

The article seem to suggest it hasn't been tested in court yet but it appears that ex-president can in fact claim executive privilege for conversations during his/her term (unlike some people's on DU and youtube's argument). Here are some relevant points from the article.

In November 2001, President George W. Bush issued an executive order that gave former presidents the absolute right to assert executive privilege over their records and preclude their release by the archivist, who is now charged with maintaining presidential records.

After establishing that the privilege continues to cover the information after the president leaves office, the court in GSA assumed that the former president had some ability to assert executive privilege over that material, but it never explained why. Nor is the question an easy one. There is considerable weight to the argument that only the current president has the authority to assert executive privilege because the privilege itself derives from Article II of the Constitution and the separation of powers. A former president has no constitutional authority.

Edit:

Here is another one that specifically says ex-president can claim executive privilege if he applied it correctly:

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/courts/news/2010/06/01/7909/executive-privilege-101/

Who can claim executive privilege?
Either the sitting president or a former president during whose term an allegedly privileged document was created may assert executive privilege.

Is this article correct?

I am simply raising this issue because the last thing I want is someone using the wrong rational and easily disputed by a Trumpist and then get ignored even though the premise/conclusion is correct.

60 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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It looks like ex-president has the right to claim executive privilege for conversations they had (Original Post) Claustrum Oct 2021 OP
I think I heard today that it depends on what the conversation is about... secondwind Oct 2021 #1
Right, like I said, I think Trump is applying it incorrectly and he is using it Claustrum Oct 2021 #5
If the records are released what's Trump gonna do? Kingofalldems Oct 2021 #2
Oh, you know, the usual, MarineCombatEngineer Oct 2021 #4
dont think so jcgoldie Oct 2021 #3
Do you have any article or the name of the constitutional laywer that said it? Claustrum Oct 2021 #7
watch the segment on executive privilege from Nicole's show today jcgoldie Oct 2021 #12
For conversations in the duty of his office, it is the office of the president that has privilege Bev54 Oct 2021 #6
It will be tied up for years, and it's unlikely there is anything in writing Hoyt Oct 2021 #8
Doesn't matter either way. They're all going to skate. That's the way "justice" rolls in the US. PSPS Oct 2021 #9
Well said. mia Oct 2021 #14
Bannon didn't skate, the ones that mueller charged didn't skate. Did some of them get wrongful PortTack Oct 2021 #19
I must have missed Bannon's stint in the joint. Please enlighten me. Otherwise, he skated. PSPS Oct 2021 #42
He was indicted for the scam wall funding. Had he not been wrongly pardoned he would have PortTack Oct 2021 #47
LOL. I left "had he not been..." off my list. He skated. PSPS Oct 2021 #55
Privileges come in different flavors Effete Snob Oct 2021 #10
The first thing to realize iss that Executive Privilege is a QUALIFIED privilege & not an ABSOLUTE hlthe2b Oct 2021 #11
That seems to run contrary to the poster below you. Claustrum Oct 2021 #23
No. It is not counter at all. Even for an in-office President, EP is QUALIFIED, not ABSOLUTE hlthe2b Oct 2021 #31
Thank you for your detailed explanation. Claustrum Oct 2021 #33
The Supreme Court has held that a former president has standing to assert EP onenote Oct 2021 #13
Thank you. Claustrum Oct 2021 #16
I'm not sure that Bannon's status would be determinative in and of itself. onenote Oct 2021 #18
You would do well to read Neil Eggleston's take on this from WAPO, which Laurence Tribe likewise hlthe2b Oct 2021 #32
And Eggleston and Tribe would do well to address this unambiguous statements of the Supreme Court onenote Oct 2021 #45
Well we all know that Karma13612 Oct 2021 #48
They DID just that! hlthe2b Oct 2021 #49
Where did they do "just that"? onenote Oct 2021 #50
Had you read the full piece & others you'd know these ACTUAL consitutional experts acknowledged that hlthe2b Oct 2021 #51
I did read the full piece and again ask you to point to where they acknowledge onenote Oct 2021 #54
And I'm Hearing That The Priviledge Is With THe Office Not The Person Me. Oct 2021 #40
Do confessions of ex-Catholics remain privileged? Effete Snob Oct 2021 #15
I made it very clear that I think Trump doesn't have the right to claim "executive privilege" here. Claustrum Oct 2021 #20
People believe whatever their mood suits them Effete Snob Oct 2021 #34
From Larry Tribe EleanorR Oct 2021 #17
The government should have the right to any and all documents and court appearances that had joetheman Oct 2021 #21
Did trump issue an EO to that effect while still in office? brush Oct 2021 #22
The EO issued was from Bush back in 2001 from the article I linked. Claustrum Oct 2021 #24
If that is allowed for a president who tried to overthrow our government, then that we are JohnSJ Oct 2021 #25
Just because an ex-president may claim executive privilege (in a general sense) doesn't make Trump's Claustrum Oct 2021 #27
We will see, because it will be the SC that will determine what is a legitimate use of EP, and what JohnSJ Oct 2021 #30
I don't think so. Ocelot II Oct 2021 #26
I guess we'll find out next Thursday, when the first batch are scheduled to appear. Nt Fiendish Thingy Oct 2021 #28
I will post the response from post 13 credited to Onenote which is contrary to what you said Claustrum Oct 2021 #29
See... PoliticAverse Oct 2021 #35
trump's claim of executive privilege is a lot like the cloud of NDAs he leaves in his wake... Wounded Bear Oct 2021 #36
What if the Exectutive Order is Outside of the Constitutionally Restricted Powers of the President? PurgedVoter Oct 2021 #37
The current president would need to sign off on that...and Biden won't. Demsrule86 Oct 2021 #38
Not From What i've Read Me. Oct 2021 #39
From my understanding after a long back and forth above with a few posters with way more Claustrum Oct 2021 #41
TFG Can Claim Anything He Wants Me. Oct 2021 #43
I don't recall Richard Nixon ever claiming EP after he left office FakeNoose Oct 2021 #57
EXACTLY Me. Oct 2021 #60
Fuck that. So any lame duck president can plan a coup and then exert executive privilege if or when ecstatic Oct 2021 #44
"Not-Tested-in-Court Yet" should be Trump's presidential nickname kcr Oct 2021 #46
The system works best when we have Presidents that are honest. scarytomcat Oct 2021 #52
To paraphrase Abe Lincoln... kentuck Oct 2021 #53
A lot of peopje UnderThisLaw Oct 2021 #56
Certainly not in conduct of a crime against the current chief executive. Uncle Joe Oct 2021 #58
George Bush was likely legally advised to do it so he could cover his criminal ass. BeckyDem Oct 2021 #59

Claustrum

(4,845 posts)
5. Right, like I said, I think Trump is applying it incorrectly and he is using it
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 05:50 PM
Oct 2021

as a get out of jail blanket card.

My objection is simply with some people's argument that Trump no longer has the right to claim executive privilege because he is no longer president.

jcgoldie

(11,528 posts)
3. dont think so
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 05:49 PM
Oct 2021

The constitutional lawyers that Ive seen weigh in on the matter have argued that executive privilege exists for the good of the public not the person of the president therefor Joe Biden would have the authority to make that decision not an out of office president.

Claustrum

(4,845 posts)
7. Do you have any article or the name of the constitutional laywer that said it?
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 05:53 PM
Oct 2021

It seems to run directly opposite to the articles I found. They seem to suggest it's a gray area that isn't tested in court. But there is no right answer yet to it.

Bev54

(9,794 posts)
6. For conversations in the duty of his office, it is the office of the president that has privilege
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 05:53 PM
Oct 2021

not for conversations for the benefit of the man/woman in office. He does not have privilege if it is the benefit of the nation to make the conversations public. Planning and carrying out an insurrection is not the duty of the president but the conversations being made public is a benefit of the nation, to ensure this could never happen again.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
8. It will be tied up for years, and it's unlikely there is anything in writing
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 05:54 PM
Oct 2021

that implicates trump, etc., although we all saw it.

PortTack

(32,118 posts)
19. Bannon didn't skate, the ones that mueller charged didn't skate. Did some of them get wrongful
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 06:11 PM
Oct 2021

Pardons...yes.
But they didn’t skate

PSPS

(13,427 posts)
42. I must have missed Bannon's stint in the joint. Please enlighten me. Otherwise, he skated.
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 08:41 PM
Oct 2021

Hint: Saying that he would have gone to the slammer except for dying before trial, hung jury, jury tampering or nullification, escape, witness intimidation, bribes, bad prosecutor, or a pardon is still skating. In other words, if you don't lose your liberty, you've skated.

PortTack

(32,118 posts)
47. He was indicted for the scam wall funding. Had he not been wrongly pardoned he would have
Sat Oct 9, 2021, 03:07 AM
Oct 2021

Gone to jail. The entire implication here is that the 1/6 committee will not act. They did the work indicted him and so no they didn’t let him skate.

PSPS

(13,427 posts)
55. LOL. I left "had he not been..." off my list. He skated.
Sat Oct 9, 2021, 10:45 AM
Oct 2021

As The Duke Brothers would say, "I'll bet you one dollar that he'll skate on this whole thing." LOL.

 

Effete Snob

(8,387 posts)
10. Privileges come in different flavors
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 05:55 PM
Oct 2021

For example, the attorney-client privilege outlasts the attorney-client privilege, and the priest-penitent privilege outlasts one’s membership in the religion.

Other privileges are conditional. For example, the spousal privilege depends on whether the spouse wants to testify or not.

This one hasn’t been tested.

hlthe2b

(101,276 posts)
11. The first thing to realize iss that Executive Privilege is a QUALIFIED privilege & not an ABSOLUTE
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 05:57 PM
Oct 2021

privilege. Essentially, the doctrine is a balancing test, as Chief Justice Burger articulated in United States v. Nixon. The chief justice recognized that to be effective, a president needed to be able to consult with his advisers and that, to get the right kind of advice, he had to have some level of confidence that advice would remain confidential, or else people might withhold their advice for fear of it getting out--WHILE IN OFFICE.

Given the issue falls to questions of conversations of a FORMER PRESIDENT, whose attempt to block revelation of communications through a PRIOR EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE can function instead as an obstruction of justice in the attempt to reveal those behind an attempt to subvert the constitution, the public's interest would surely invalidate any such attempt in any prior SCOTUS.

We shall see.

Claustrum

(4,845 posts)
23. That seems to run contrary to the poster below you.
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 06:23 PM
Oct 2021

I will quote him here:

From Nixon v. Administrator of General Services, 433 US 425 (1977)

"it is argued, such claims may be asserted only by incumbents who are presently responsible to the American people for their action. We reject the argument that only an incumbent President may assert such claims, and hold that appellant, as a former President, may also be heard to assert them."

This looks like such a gray area that at least we shouldn't use this rational that Trump is an ex-president so he has no right to claim executive privilege. All I am trying to do is to make sure I or people on DU don't use the wrong rational and easily get disputed by a Trumpist.

hlthe2b

(101,276 posts)
31. No. It is not counter at all. Even for an in-office President, EP is QUALIFIED, not ABSOLUTE
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 06:46 PM
Oct 2021

that is the very basis of the case in US v Nixon. And, the illegalities being explored "trumped" (pardon pun) the justification for any consideration under EP.

While the issue of ANY EP AFTER office has not been fully litigated, that is NOT to say there is not SCOTUS case law-- i.e., the case of Nixon v. General Services Administration, Nixon tried to sue the GSA to prevent release of records AFTER leaving office.

Here, as explained by Harvard constitutional professor and former White House Counsel, Neil Eggleston:

"Congress had passed a law to allow the GSA to seize and preserve all President Nixon’s presidential records. President Nixon sued, claiming the act was unconstitutional. The Supreme Court upheld the law and basically decided that the current president is the right person to make judgments about the assertion of executive privilege. That’s because under our system, the authority attaches to the office, not the human. President Biden has this power because he’s president, not because he’s Joe Biden. And when President Trump was in office, he had the power because he was President Trump, not because he was Donald Trump. So, I think the law is pretty well settled. But again, we have many years later a very new Supreme Court."


I never said he could not assert a case--that is the part that is not fully litigated. Asserting EP and the court upholding that assertion are two different things. But, again with the prior case law that clearly designated the OFFICE and not the individual as the holder of EP AND that EP is not ABSOLUTE in ANY CASE, Trump should lose handily (and would in a prior comprised court). Obviously, we have five ideologues who may choose to ignore precedence. So, there are no certainties on this or any other issue before SCOTUS. Still for them to ignore such prior determinations would add to the erosion of SCOTUS--something one would presume still matters for SOME of them.

Claustrum

(4,845 posts)
33. Thank you for your detailed explanation.
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 07:06 PM
Oct 2021

As you pointed out, I clearly confused myself with an ex-president's right to claim executive privilege verses a current president given more weight trumping the ex-president's claim of executive privilege.

So in essence, Trump has the right to claim executive privilege on those documents but, at least according to the case law you cited, the court will give more weight to the current president's decision over the ex-president. The question is whether the current supreme court will follow the precedent in that case law.

onenote

(42,002 posts)
13. The Supreme Court has held that a former president has standing to assert EP
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 06:03 PM
Oct 2021

From Nixon v. Administrator of General Services, 433 US 425 (1977)

"it is argued, such claims may be asserted only by incumbents who are presently responsible to the American people for their action. We reject the argument that only an incumbent President may assert such claims, and hold that appellant, as a former President, may also be heard to assert them."

Note that the decision says that the former president "also" may assert EP. Ultimately, where the incumbent and the former president disagree, the courts will have to resolve the matter; it is expected that the sitting president's view will be given greater weight, but its not a foregone conclusion. For example, imagine if Trump had decided to release conversations between Obama and his advisers over Obama's objections, for no other reason than to embarrass Obama or those advisors in some way. Should a court allow it? it should take compelling circumstances - such as those that I believe exist in the current situation -- to overcome an assertion of EP by a former president since the goal of EP is to allow Presidents the benefit of unfiltered advice.

Claustrum

(4,845 posts)
16. Thank you.
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 06:08 PM
Oct 2021

This is what I think is the most relevant. Once again, I am not arguing that Trump is right on claiming "executive privilege" in this instance. My problem was from the fact some people said Trump is an ex-president and thus no longer has or can claim executive privilege, which is incorrect.

It's clearly that Bannon doesn't fall under "executive privilege" because he is not employed in the official capacity. But there are many threads that argued with the wrong rational and I wanted to make sure I got the fact straight.

onenote

(42,002 posts)
18. I'm not sure that Bannon's status would be determinative in and of itself.
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 06:11 PM
Oct 2021

I'm unaware of any decision that resolves whether a president can assert EP with respect to communications he has with "informal" advisers that are not government employees at the time.

hlthe2b

(101,276 posts)
32. You would do well to read Neil Eggleston's take on this from WAPO, which Laurence Tribe likewise
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 06:55 PM
Oct 2021

echoes. I cited quite a bit of his analysis in my previous posts, as has someone downstream.

onenote

(42,002 posts)
45. And Eggleston and Tribe would do well to address this unambiguous statements of the Supreme Court
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 10:21 PM
Oct 2021

in Nixon v. GSA:


"it is argued, such claims may be asserted only by incumbents who are presently responsible to the American people for their action. We reject the argument that only an incumbent President may assert such claims, and hold that appellant, as a former President, may also be heard to assert them."

The Court went on to say:"we think that the Solicitor General states the sounder view, and we adopt it:

"This Court held in United States v. Nixon . . . that the privilege is necessary to provide the confidentiality required for the President's conduct of office. Unless he can give his advisers some assurance of confidentiality, a President could not expect to receive the full and frank submissions of facts and opinions upon which effective discharge of his duties depends. The confidentiality necessary to this exchange cannot be measured by the few months or years between the submission of the information and the end of the President's tenure; the privilege is not for the benefit of the President as an individual, but for the benefit of the Republic. Therefore the privilege survives the individual President's tenure."

Ultimately, as that case makes clear, where the incumbent president disagrees with the former president, the incumbent's views as to whether the privilege is appropriate are entitled to great weight. But it simply is wrong -- clearly -- to say that Trump cannot assert executive privilege. The courts may (and should) reject that claim, but not on the grounds that he has no standing to make it.

Karma13612

(4,516 posts)
48. Well we all know that
Sat Oct 9, 2021, 04:55 AM
Oct 2021

What the SCOTUS says these days can easily override the past.

Then again, if it helps Their Trump, then they will no doubt side with twisted injustice to help him.

hlthe2b

(101,276 posts)
49. They DID just that!
Sat Oct 9, 2021, 05:16 AM
Oct 2021

Obviously, you may fancy yourself to be more of a constitutional expert than either Tribe or Eggleston, but really?

onenote

(42,002 posts)
50. Where did they do "just that"?
Sat Oct 9, 2021, 08:27 AM
Oct 2021

Tribe suggests that Trump can't assert EP because he's not president, stating: "Executive privilege is for the incumbent chief executive to assert. That statement is directly contradicted by the GSA case, to which Tribe makes no reference.

Eggleston also fails to acknowledge, let alone cite, the clear statements from the Supreme Court that a former president can assert EP. Instead, he suggests that the Court decided in GSA "that the current president is the right person to make judgments about the assertion of executive privilege." In fact, while the Court acknowledged that an incumbent president's opposition to a former president's claim of executive privilege "detracts" from the weight of the former president's EP claim, but the Court nowhere states, or even suggests, that the position of the incumbent is, in and of itself, determinative of whether that claim will or won't be upheld.

And I suspect that both Eggleston and Tribe actually know this. Imagine a scenario where Trump had decided to willy-nilly release Obama communications with Biden and Obama, as former president had objected on EP grounds. The issue wouldn't be resolved against Obama simply because Trump was the incumbent. It would be resolved on the strength or weakness of the argument that the release of the material served an overriding public interest -- the standard that Biden has cited in rejecting Trump's claim and the standard that should be applied in resolving this dispute.

hlthe2b

(101,276 posts)
51. Had you read the full piece & others you'd know these ACTUAL consitutional experts acknowledged that
Sat Oct 9, 2021, 09:04 AM
Oct 2021

and went on to clarify. But, of course, everyone here should listen to YOUR impressions of constitutional law, not Tribe, Eggleston, Katyal, Vladeck, Chemerinsky, Karlan... Had you read through all my posts you'd realize that you are arguing about nothing substantively different.

Bye now. I am happy to discuss actual substantive differences, but I find those who fail to fully read or accurately convey the positions of the leading experts in constitutional law inexplicable and motives at least questionable. Nor, btw, do I intend to address the addled writings of a Dershowitz or Jonathan Turley that may ultimately get posted here by those who don't know better.

onenote

(42,002 posts)
54. I did read the full piece and again ask you to point to where they acknowledge
Sat Oct 9, 2021, 09:20 AM
Oct 2021

the key holding of the GSA case -- namely that the Supreme Court has definitively stated that a former president can assert EP.

I'm waiting.....

All of the experts are correct in stating that Trump should lose. But the reason he should lose isn't that he doesn't have any right to claim EP or even that Biden's opposition automatically overrides that claim. Trump will lose because Biden's position carries more weight and because of the nature of the materials being sought.

 

Effete Snob

(8,387 posts)
15. Do confessions of ex-Catholics remain privileged?
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 06:08 PM
Oct 2021

Do your communications with your former lawyer remain privileged?

Part of the analysis is going to be the expectations of the parties at the time.

Claustrum

(4,845 posts)
20. I made it very clear that I think Trump doesn't have the right to claim "executive privilege" here.
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 06:12 PM
Oct 2021

The problem is that some poster are saying it's because ex-president doesn't have the right to claim "executive privilege" which is incorrect. Ex-president can claim executive privilege if it's applied correctly. It's just that Trump is applying it wrong.

As an poster above cited in a court case, Supreme court ruled that ex-president may claim executive privilege if such privilege is applied correctly.

 

joetheman

(1,450 posts)
21. The government should have the right to any and all documents and court appearances that had
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 06:14 PM
Oct 2021

anything to do with insurrection, attempting to overturn a legitimate election of the President, and threatening the lives of elected officials.

Claustrum

(4,845 posts)
24. The EO issued was from Bush back in 2001 from the article I linked.
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 06:26 PM
Oct 2021

Also, from another poster, there is a supreme court case ruled that ex-president can claim executive privilege if the executive privilege is claimed correctly.

Here is the court case that poster mentioned:

From Nixon v. Administrator of General Services, 433 US 425 (1977)

"it is argued, such claims may be asserted only by incumbents who are presently responsible to the American people for their action. We reject the argument that only an incumbent President may assert such claims, and hold that appellant, as a former President, may also be heard to assert them."

JohnSJ

(91,483 posts)
25. If that is allowed for a president who tried to overthrow our government, then that we are
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 06:28 PM
Oct 2021

a democracy is an illusion, and the president is above the law

Claustrum

(4,845 posts)
27. Just because an ex-president may claim executive privilege (in a general sense) doesn't make Trump's
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 06:34 PM
Oct 2021

use of executive privilege in this specific instance correct. The executive privilege has a specific and narrow scope applied.

The problem is people trying to simplify the issue to "ex-president doesn't have the right to claim executive privilege because he is no longer president" which is clearly wrong. Trump shouldn't and can't claim executive privilege here because of other legitimate rational. We just have to use the right rational when we are talking about such issue and should not continue to use a wrong rational as some posts did earlier today.

JohnSJ

(91,483 posts)
30. We will see, because it will be the SC that will determine what is a legitimate use of EP, and what
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 06:39 PM
Oct 2021

isn’t

Ocelot II

(114,539 posts)
26. I don't think so.
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 06:30 PM
Oct 2021
...there’s a Supreme Court case called Nixon v. General Services Administration, the agency that had possession of the records of former President Nixon. Congress had passed a law to allow the GSA to seize and preserve all President Nixon’s presidential records. President Nixon sued, claiming the act was unconstitutional. The Supreme Court upheld the law and basically decided that the current president is the right person to make judgments about the assertion of executive privilege. That’s because under our system, the authority attaches to the office, not the human.
https://today.law.harvard.edu/can-donald-trump-still-assert-executive-privilege/

Claustrum

(4,845 posts)
29. I will post the response from post 13 credited to Onenote which is contrary to what you said
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 06:37 PM
Oct 2021

From Nixon v. Administrator of General Services, 433 US 425 (1977)

"it is argued, such claims may be asserted only by incumbents who are presently responsible to the American people for their action. We reject the argument that only an incumbent President may assert such claims, and hold that appellant, as a former President, may also be heard to assert them."

Note that the decision says that the former president "also" may assert EP. Ultimately, where the incumbent and the former president disagree, the courts will have to resolve the matter; it is expected that the sitting president's view will be given greater weight, but its not a foregone conclusion. For example, imagine if Trump had decided to release conversations between Obama and his advisers over Obama's objections, for no other reason than to embarrass Obama or those advisors in some way. Should a court allow it? it should take compelling circumstances - such as those that I believe exist in the current situation -- to overcome an assertion of EP by a former president since the goal of EP is to allow Presidents the benefit of unfiltered advice.


It is correct that present president is given higher weight but it's not a foregone conclusion until the court decides.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
35. See...
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 07:20 PM
Oct 2021

Executive Privilege and Former Presidents: Constitutional Principles and Current Application
Congressional Research Service
September 20, 2021

(.pdf) https://sgp.fas.org/crs/secrecy/LSB10642.pdf

Wounded Bear

(58,215 posts)
36. trump's claim of executive privilege is a lot like the cloud of NDAs he leaves in his wake...
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 07:21 PM
Oct 2021

entirely based on nothing but CYA and protecting himself and his image.

PurgedVoter

(2,142 posts)
37. What if the Exectutive Order is Outside of the Constitutionally Restricted Powers of the President?
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 07:44 PM
Oct 2021

When Bush made the Executive Order that gave himself continued Executive Privileges after he left office, it was just one more brick in the authoritarian wall of nonsense that Cheney and Bush made. Remember that Cheney insisted on rights even larger than presidential rights.

Since as a citizen, you have by constitutional law, rights that are not mentioned in the Constitution, your constitutional right to make citizen orders is much stronger than the rights of a president in areas outside of his constitutionally limited powers.

So for my first citizen order, I am declaring Trump an enemy of the state. There, I did it, now anyone who helps him is a traitor. They were before my citizen order, but now it is official.

I know this is nonsense but so are at least half of the legal shenanigans that Bush-Cheney pulled and pretty much all of the ones that Trump pulled.

Claustrum

(4,845 posts)
41. From my understanding after a long back and forth above with a few posters with way more
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 08:07 PM
Oct 2021

knowledge than me.

1) Trump has to right to claim executive privilege even as an ex-president.
2) The court case cited above thread said that the current president's decision is given more weight than the ex-president's in a case where the ex-president and the current president positions differ. So the current president's decision overwrites the ex-president's.
3) Trump can still try to bring this issue to the court (ultimately supreme court) because such a case hasn't been litigated yet. And the unknown is whether the current supreme court will follow precedent/the cited previous court ruling.

Me.

(35,454 posts)
43. TFG Can Claim Anything He Wants
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 09:18 PM
Oct 2021

Doesn't mean it holds water. As I understand it, the documents are already being handed over.

FakeNoose

(32,041 posts)
57. I don't recall Richard Nixon ever claiming EP after he left office
Sat Oct 9, 2021, 10:56 AM
Oct 2021

Nor do I recall Dubya doing so, even though they both had a lot to cover up. Why would SCOTUS consider breaking precedent just on the say-so of a failed reality TV actor?



ecstatic

(32,418 posts)
44. Fuck that. So any lame duck president can plan a coup and then exert executive privilege if or when
Fri Oct 8, 2021, 09:31 PM
Oct 2021

they're investigated? If so, then our system is a complete joke that needs to be reimagined ASAHP.

scarytomcat

(1,706 posts)
52. The system works best when we have Presidents that are honest.
Sat Oct 9, 2021, 09:16 AM
Oct 2021

TFG should not gotten in. He is a disgrace.

UnderThisLaw

(317 posts)
56. A lot of peopje
Sat Oct 9, 2021, 10:49 AM
Oct 2021

in this thread terrified at the thought of the committee getting the material it has requested

Uncle Joe

(57,749 posts)
58. Certainly not in conduct of a crime against the current chief executive.
Sat Oct 9, 2021, 11:01 AM
Oct 2021

No one can serve two masters, thus a nation can't have two Presidents.

Thanks for the thread Claustrum.

BeckyDem

(8,361 posts)
59. George Bush was likely legally advised to do it so he could cover his criminal ass.
Sat Oct 9, 2021, 11:02 AM
Oct 2021

What worries me is the SCOTUS, too many of the cons are all about executive power as a right. If this were to land in their lap I worry it could benefit Trump and also further corrupt our system of governing.

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