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(7,509 posts)
12. He does that, he loses the 2024 primary
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 11:25 AM
Nov 2021

Trumpanzees won't vote for someone who voted to convict TFG twice.


(5,554 posts)
14. 'Own teh libs' and take control of the senate away from us? All will be forgiven
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 11:29 AM
Nov 2021

add in a nice photo op with the orange idiot right after he announces, and he'll never have to pay for beer in his home state.


(10,427 posts)
3. They've already capitulated to Manchin again
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 09:56 AM
Nov 2021

It's down to 1.7 or 1.9, and he STILL won't commit.

I don't think he intends to ever let it pass at all.


(14,971 posts)
5. We're only 5 up in the House and tied in the Senate despite Schumer being Majority Leader
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 09:59 AM
Nov 2021

I was always skeptical it would pass.


(43,198 posts)
8. $3.5 trillion has been off the table for weeks. We will be damn lucky to get BBB at its current 1.75
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 10:03 AM
Nov 2021

And without any more entire programmes being shitbinned by Coal Joe and Curtsy Krysten.

If we cave in after all this and pass the BIF with no ironclad deal on the BBB from those 2, the chances for the BBB to even pass at all go way down. If it does somehow get passed without the leverage of the BIF, it will likely be further gutted than it already is.


(4,448 posts)
10. yea I know that lots of numbers have been tossed around
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 10:49 AM
Nov 2021

But $3.5 seems to be the preferred label that everyone agrees on.


(43,198 posts)
11. $3.5 trillion was Biden's original topline number for the BBB Act
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 11:23 AM
Nov 2021

The $3.5 trillion for BBB and the $2.6 trillion for BIF proposals were Biden's.

The progressives, months ago, agreed to come down from their $6 trillion for BBB and $4 trillion for BIF proposals and agreed to fully support Biden's $3.5 trillion BBB proposal and his $2.6 proposal for BIF (then the progs further agreed to support the BIF after Manchin, Sinema, and the 'moderate' Rethugs gutted out almost 80% of Biden's new spend/tax credits, dropping it form $2.6 trillion all the way down to $550 billion new spend (the other $650 billion in the BIF is simply renewals of mostly transportation programmes that date back to the Trump and Obama administrations).

Build Back Better Act


Here is the broad spending framework for Biden's $3.5 trillion BBB Act proposal, that Manchin and Sinema have already gutted down to $1.75 trillion


$135 billion for the Committee on Agriculture Nutrition and Forestry. Funding to be used to address forest fires, reduce carbon emissions, and address drought concerns.

$332 billion for the Banking Committee. Including investments in public housing, the Housing Trust Fund, housing affordability, and equity and community land trusts.

$198 billion for the Energy and Natural Resources Committee. This would develop clean energy. (and remember, almost all environmental spend and tax credits were already gutted from the bi-partisan bill, as I have already shown)

$67 billion for the Environment and Public Works Committee. These monies would fund low-income solar and other climate-friendly technologies.

$1.8 trillion for the Finance Committee. This part of the bill is for investments in working families, the elderly, and the environment. It includes a tax cut for Americans making less than $400,000 a year, lowering the price of prescription drugs, and ensuring the wealthy and large corporations pay their fair share of taxes. (this is prime funding here, and Manchinema want mass cuts here, which blows it up)

$726 billion for the Health, Labor, Education, and Pensions Committee. This addresses universal pre-K for 3- and 4-year-olds, childcare for working families, tuition-free community college, funding for historically black colleges and universities, and an expansion of the Pell Grant for higher education.

$37 billion for the HSGAC Committee. This would electrify the federal vehicle fleet, electrify and rehab federal buildings, improve cybersecurity infrastructure, reinforce border management, invest in green-materials procurement, and invest in resilience. (agin most all was guttend from the other bill already)

$107 billion for the Judiciary Committee. These funds address establishing "lawful permanent status for qualified immigrants."

$20.5 billion for the Indian Affairs Committee. This addresses Native American health programs and facilities, education programs and facilities, housing programs, energy programs, resilience and climate programs, BIA programs and facilities, Native language programs, and the Native Civilian Climate Corps.

$25 billion for the Small Business Committee. This provides for small business access to credit, investment, and markets.

$18 billion for the Veterans Affairs Committee. This funds upgrades to veteran facilities.

$83 billion for the Commerce Committee. This goes to investments in technology, transportation, research, manufacturing, and economic development. It provides funding for coastal resiliency, healthy oceans investments, including the National Oceans and Coastal Security Fund and the National Science Foundation research and technology directorate.

More detail of the $3.5 trillion framework:

Update on The Build Back Better Act


This September, Congressional Representatives and Senators working to advance a fiscal year 2022 budget reconciliation package that invests up to $3.5 trillion over 10 years in physical, social, and innovation infrastructure. This legislation, called the Build Back Better Act, is being crafted to include significant parts of President Biden’s American Jobs Plan and American Families Plan and supports domestic manufacturing and R&D, resilient supply chains, affordable housing, advanced energy infrastructure and policies, education, healthcare, childcare, paid leave, labor law enforcement, and more. Through the budget reconciliation process, both the House and Senate can advance the legislation through a simple majority.

Typically, legislation in the Senate requires a procedural vote that needs a 60-vote supermajority to close debate before a bill can advance to a floor vote. If passed by the House, the legislation is expected to move through the Senate committees and finally to the Senate floor. After 20-hour Senate floor debate that cannot be obstructed by the 60-vote filibuster rule, the bill would move to a “vote-a-rama” amendment process where proposed amendments that are germane to the bill will be voted on without debate.

The budget reconciliation process moved forward on August 11 when the Senate passed a budget resolution — titled “S.Con.Res. 14, A Concurrent Resolution on the Budget for Fiscal Year 2022.” The House of Representatives passed Senate Continuing Resolution 14 on August 24. Twelve committees in the House of Representatives have worked with corresponding committees in the Senate as well as the White House to craft legislative text for the Build Back Better Act. Currently, House and Senate leadership, committee chairs, and the White House are conferring and continuing to work on a Build Back Better bill that will have a majority of votes to pass the House and at least 50 votes (plus the vote of the Senate President/Vice President Kamala Harris) to pass in the Senate.

(you can right click and open image in new tab to see the text enlarged)

Finally, just for emphasis:

We already said bye bye to almost 80% of the bi-partisan bill's new spend/tax incentives that made up Biden's proposal/framework, and yet the progressives are still on board

The Infrastructure Plan: What’s In and What’s Out (it's brutal)

Biden's original proposal:

What was left after Manchin, Sinema, and the so-called 'moderate' Rethugs (the very ones that Manchin and Sinema constantly hype as needing to be catered to) took a 2.05 trillion USD hatchet to it:



(7,509 posts)
13. Progressives have been the adults in the room from day one
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 11:28 AM
Nov 2021

Progressives have given up and compromised every step of the way, yet the holdouts refuse to come forward.

We're only at this impasse because of the radical minority in our caucus and those who pander and appease to them.

If they are as loyal to Biden's agenda as they say they are, it's time to end the negotiations and make them put up or shut up.


(43,198 posts)
15. In terms of money totals the progs have compromised 30.8 times MORE than Manchin and Sinema have
Wed Nov 3, 2021, 11:43 AM
Nov 2021

for both bills combined, if you count from their initial proposals back in winter and spring of 2021.

15.2 times more if you count it from when they agreed to accept Biden's original numbers (they did that months ago). That is if the BBB stays at its already 50% gutted $1.75 topline number.

Manchin was just on live and was gobbing on in true austerity ghoul fashion about debt, too much social programmes breeding an entitlement society, inflation etc etc, and how the BBB process needs to be slowed down, and all that whilst still demanding the BIF be passed now.

I full expect him to start to revisit his 'strategic pause until 2022' bollocks about the BBB soon, and IF the BIF is passed with no agreement, he likely digs up his original '$1 trillion total spend for the BBB' posturing from the crypt.

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