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iemanja

(53,026 posts)
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 05:06 PM Dec 2021

Do you agree that Ethan Crumbly should be charged as an adult?

I don't. He seems like a very disturbed boy whose actions were made possible by terrible parents.


51 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
Yes
33 (65%)
No
14 (27%)
Not sure
4 (8%)
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Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll
47 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Do you agree that Ethan Crumbly should be charged as an adult? (Original Post) iemanja Dec 2021 OP
I'd like to see a comprehensive psych assessment from multiple experts--including those hlthe2b Dec 2021 #1
Yes, good so GusBob Dec 2021 #2
It could be mitigating on sentencing, but he still faces trial. Could it affect the verdict? Sure hlthe2b Dec 2021 #6
Interesting and what if GusBob Dec 2021 #13
I agree with that. nt iemanja Dec 2021 #3
That would be a good thing in the pursuit of justice. SYFROYH Dec 2021 #16
I'm not sure. He may have been manipulated/warped by his parents Wingus Dingus Dec 2021 #4
Is he an adult? eShirl Dec 2021 #5
He's 15 iemanja Dec 2021 #7
In a previous life, on 3-4 occasions, i was a courier of psychological evaluations to a judge Tetrachloride Dec 2021 #8
No, I don't. But I don't think he should ever get out, either. Haggard Celine Dec 2021 #9
juveniles can't be sentenced to life iemanja Dec 2021 #11
Well, I'm not sure, then. Haggard Celine Dec 2021 #18
Yes. Whether he can plead insanity or diminished capacity is a separate question. Klaralven Dec 2021 #10
15-year old brains are not adult brains VMA131Marine Dec 2021 #12
Not true inthewind21 Dec 2021 #32
That is a simplistic view and it's not supported VMA131Marine Dec 2021 #34
Not so easy ... dumbcat Dec 2021 #47
If we ever begin trying adults as juveniles as well, I'll reassess my no vote. Torchlight Dec 2021 #14
Right now, yes. AngryOldDem Dec 2021 #15
We don't have it but if we did I would vote for it in his case if I were on the jury. roamer65 Dec 2021 #22
It's fucking ridiculous, he's not an adult, Stupid fucking law USALiberal Dec 2021 #17
+1 nt berniesandersmittens Dec 2021 #45
I need a lot more info to have a solid opinion on this. SYFROYH Dec 2021 #19
Well... Mike Nelson Dec 2021 #20
No kid should. WhiskeyGrinder Dec 2021 #21
No. He's too young. Blue_playwright Dec 2021 #23
I totally disagree. Even at 15 you know that, " YOU SHOULD NOT KILL"...Don't You? I did. Stuart G Dec 2021 #39
This is difficult. AngryOldDem Dec 2021 #41
Well said. crickets Dec 2021 #43
Dang it.......I don't think so......isn't there something in between?? a kennedy Dec 2021 #24
The question I always ask is: hamsterjill Dec 2021 #25
I know I don't want him to get out of prison anytime soon. dchill Dec 2021 #26
For how long can a juvenile be sentenced in Michigan? Poiuyt Dec 2021 #27
I think so iemanja Dec 2021 #28
I agree. There was something very wrong going on in that family. patphil Dec 2021 #29
It is simple, he is not an adult. BeckyDem Dec 2021 #30
The problem is pinkstarburst Dec 2021 #31
15 is well past old enough to know right from wrong inthewind21 Dec 2021 #35
He talked about the voices in his head iemanja Dec 2021 #36
No. 15 is not an adult. In fact a great deal of development happens between 15 and 18. Buckeyeblue Dec 2021 #33
I don't know. I do know that I think adults Crunchy Frog Dec 2021 #37
Is a 15-year-old pregnant girl an adult? Walleye Dec 2021 #38
He's white. Is that even legal? 11 Bravo Dec 2021 #40
I can see his ending up in a psych facility iemanja Dec 2021 #42
No. I do not berniesandersmittens Dec 2021 #44
I do not feel that he should be charged as an adult. But if he were convicted then I think he totodeinhere Dec 2021 #46

hlthe2b

(102,188 posts)
1. I'd like to see a comprehensive psych assessment from multiple experts--including those
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 05:11 PM
Dec 2021

with specific expertise in the indoctrination of children. I'm not sure whether or not he should be tried as an adult. There are facts not yet being presented to the public that likely influenced the DA decision. I want to know what those were.

GusBob

(7,286 posts)
2. Yes, good so
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 05:13 PM
Dec 2021

If the parents are found guilty of involuntary manslaughter does this aid in the kid's defense? Maybe a stupid question but, if they manipulated him to the shootings, can he be found not guilty of murder?

hlthe2b

(102,188 posts)
6. It could be mitigating on sentencing, but he still faces trial. Could it affect the verdict? Sure
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 05:16 PM
Dec 2021

GusBob

(7,286 posts)
13. Interesting and what if
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 05:20 PM
Dec 2021

I do believe it could influence the verdict, what if ( another stupid question ) what if the mom or parents are like: 'yep its our fault, it was our idea' etc in order to get their lil' brat off the charges? In other words take the blame so he walks?

And maybe thats why they are on the run...to look guilty

Speculation, its what we do

Wingus Dingus

(8,052 posts)
4. I'm not sure. He may have been manipulated/warped by his parents
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 05:14 PM
Dec 2021

and also may have been mentally ill or immature for his age. He obviously had issues and needed help and their reaction was to buy him a gun and tell him not to get caught when he online-shops for ammo. It's like Lanza 2.0. I'll wait and see what the psychiatrists say.

Haggard Celine

(16,843 posts)
18. Well, I'm not sure, then.
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 05:28 PM
Dec 2021

He isn't an adult, but he committed a most heinous crime. It depends on how long they can keep him, I guess. If they have to let him out when he turns 21, then that won't do. If they can keep him for 20 or more years and give him intensive therapy, that might work. But I think he shouldn't do less than 20 years. If they won't allow that, then I guess I'd be in favor of charging him as an adult.

VMA131Marine

(4,136 posts)
12. 15-year old brains are not adult brains
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 05:20 PM
Dec 2021

As horrific as the crime is you can’t hold someone of that age to the same standard of culpability as a person 10 years older. Add in the possibility of untreated mental illness and I have a difficult time believing anyone that age can understand the long term consequences of their actions. That’s why we don’t let people under 18 agree to contracts or sign legal documents without a parent or guardians co-signature.

 

inthewind21

(4,616 posts)
32. Not true
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 05:57 PM
Dec 2021

Any HS kid can get a bank account. So yes, it is allowed for under 18's to enter into contracts without a parent's signature. As for charging as an adult, if you commit adult crimes, you do adult time.

dumbcat

(2,120 posts)
47. Not so easy ...
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 08:00 PM
Dec 2021
For people under the age of 18, opening a bank account is hard. The problem is that you need to sign a contract to open an account, and contracts signed by minors are complicated. State laws and corporate policies vary, but most banks aren’t going to open accounts for anybody under 18 unless there’s also an adult on the account.1


[link:https://www.thebalance.com/bank-accounts-for-people-under-18-315365#:~:text=For%20people%20under%20the%20age%20of%2018%2C%20opening,unless%20there%E2%80%99s%20also%20an%20adult%20on%20the%20account.|

Torchlight

(3,311 posts)
14. If we ever begin trying adults as juveniles as well, I'll reassess my no vote.
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 05:20 PM
Dec 2021

I think the law should maintain an absolute consistency unless or until that specific law is first questioned and itself reassessed by jurists, and then (only then) applied to the court system.

I also have no reason to think he was disturbed any more or any less than any other killer is.

Caveat: I'm neither a lawyer nor a psychologist, and I have no formal training in either.

AngryOldDem

(14,061 posts)
15. Right now, yes.
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 05:21 PM
Dec 2021

But it’s obvious, though, a mental health/competency exam is sorely needed. If that proves mental illness, put him in a treatment facility until he’s 21. If he’s competent, put him in a juvenile facility until he’s 21 and revisit the case then.

In no way do I support putting him in adult prison, or the death penalty, if Michigan has it.

I say treat the parents as harshly as the law allows.

roamer65

(36,745 posts)
22. We don't have it but if we did I would vote for it in his case if I were on the jury.
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 05:29 PM
Dec 2021

I would do it with a very clean conscience as well.

Mike Nelson

(9,949 posts)
20. Well...
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 05:29 PM
Dec 2021

... his parents should be tried as adults. As for the actual killer, I don't know... the default answer should be "No" I guess... if we have laws about juveniles/adults, they should be followed. If there are serious crimes - like this one - maybe the default answer should be "Yes." Maybe that should be an exception? Always treat them as adults, then? I would want to know more about the case.

Stuart G

(38,414 posts)
39. I totally disagree. Even at 15 you know that, " YOU SHOULD NOT KILL"...Don't You? I did.
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:22 PM
Dec 2021

...iT is stupid (in my opinion) for us to believe that he did ..."not know the consequences of his actions."

and also.........HE DIDN'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF HIS ACTIONS...IS THAT RIGHT?




AngryOldDem

(14,061 posts)
41. This is difficult.
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:54 PM
Dec 2021

All signs point to family dysfunction on a massive scale.

While I agree that the average 15-year-old knows that taking a life is wrong, there’s a lot here that we still don’t know that could mitigate what we think right now should be done.

All of this discussion now, really, is pointless and will only lead to arguments until a thorough psych exam on this kid is done. If he was legally sane at the time, prosecute as an adult. Not sane? Treatment facility until he’s 21.

But go after the parents to the fullest extent. 99% of the blame lies with them.

Flame away.

crickets

(25,959 posts)
43. Well said.
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 07:27 PM
Dec 2021

I had no problem with Ethan Crumbley being charged as an adult at first, but as more information comes to light it seems that might be a mistake. I agree with you that a psychological exam is necessary.

His parents? If only they could be charged with more than involuntary manslaughter. When it comes to them, I'm lean toward 'throw away the key' territory.

hamsterjill

(15,220 posts)
25. The question I always ask is:
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 05:41 PM
Dec 2021

Would you want to live next door to him? I wouldn’t.

He’s a monster whether it is his own doing or as a victim of circumstance. He is a threat to society and that threat isn’t going to ever go away. He needs to be treated accordingly where he can never hurt anyone again. Life in prison is so unfortunate for someone so young, but he’s not redeemable in my opinion.

patphil

(6,158 posts)
29. I agree. There was something very wrong going on in that family.
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 05:51 PM
Dec 2021

And now the parents have gone into hiding.

pinkstarburst

(1,327 posts)
31. The problem is
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 05:53 PM
Dec 2021

I understand the argument that the brain does not fully finish developing until 25. But there was a news story on CNN today about a 13-year-old who was assembling and selling ghost-guns and when one of his buyers tried to take off with one of his guns without paying, he opened fire at them, killing his 14-year-old sister.

So that dude, had a whole illegal gun building, trading, dealing operation AND killed his sister.

At 13.

Then we have the shooter form this week, who is 15, and again, there is the argument of brain development, and obviously this kid's parents are real pieces of work. But if you don't charge him as an adult, that means he gets out at 21, right? Who thinks this kid is going to be safe to reenter society at 21? I don't. I also don't think the Parkland school shooter will EVER be safe to reenter society. It think with some of these really severe cases, they just have to be locked away where they cannot hurt anyone else. It's really sad that they made that choice at a young age. But as sad as I feel for them, they are not the victims. The victims are the four young people who they murdered, and the 10+ other victims who they shot who suffered severe wounds, and the countless other survivors who will live with PTSD for the rest of their lives, and the countless friends, family members and community members who will live with PTSD and psychological effects for the rest of their lives.

So if there were a way to charge extremely disturbed Ethan Crumbly as a juvenile and lock him away for the rest of his life? Sure. But I think we all know that isn't possible. So I'm okay with charging him as an adult if that protects others.

 

inthewind21

(4,616 posts)
35. 15 is well past old enough to know right from wrong
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:06 PM
Dec 2021

Why is that when it's a white kid it's an automatic "mentally ill" excuse every. single. time. Has it ever occurred to anyone that some are just evil and lost causes? Society uses the "mentally ill" excuse far too much. Murder by it's definition is an insane act to those of us who can't comprehend why or how anyone can do something like this. Ask yourself, why doesn't the insanity plea apply in EVERY murder case? Because being a disturbed sicko doesn't automatically make you clinically insane or mentally ill, that's why.

iemanja

(53,026 posts)
36. He talked about the voices in his head
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:10 PM
Dec 2021

and how he couldn't make them stop. That could potentially be schizophrenia.
It's not just people assuming he's mentally ill because he's white. It's what he said over his texts.

Crunchy Frog

(26,579 posts)
37. I don't know. I do know that I think adults
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 06:13 PM
Dec 2021

need to be held WAAAAY more accountable for what they allow to happen with their firearms than what they currently are.

totodeinhere

(13,058 posts)
46. I do not feel that he should be charged as an adult. But if he were convicted then I think he
Fri Dec 3, 2021, 07:52 PM
Dec 2021

would deserve the most severe sentence possible for a juvenile. I have always opposed charging juveniles as adults and I see no reason to change my stance now.

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