I had to tell a good friend that I can't get together with her over the holidays.

[MontanaMama]

"Jackie" used to be my neighbor. She's former surgical nurse and now is a medical director for at risk youth near a military base. We've been friends for many years. We did everything together when she lived here. We're avid gardeners...we hiked all over western Montana together...we had happy hour together almost every Thursday...we shared a CSA farm share between our two families. She's like a sister.

Two years ago she went through a nasty divorce and moved out of state with her two kids. She's now with her high school sweetheart and things are good for her for which I'm very happy.

Jackie texted that she and her SO were planning to come up here to pick up her kids after Christmas...they're with her ex-husband. She asked if she and her guy could spend New Years with us and I jumped at the chance to have her in my home again. THEN, I sent a text that said "Just so you know, we're vaxxed and boosted. You guys too?" She replied that they all had Covid in August and she's not worried about getting sick because they have "good old fashioned immunity". I'm floored. She's a friggin' nurse. She knows better...or she damned well ought to. I am so disappointed in her and I'm so disappointed that I won't be able to see her.

I'm just so sad. WTH has happened to people who used to have a functioning brain?

[Joinfortmill]

1. So sorry.

[vanlassie]

2. Under influence of boyfriend?

[Hortensis]

10. My second guess and still on the list. First is that she

always leaned more right and broke right on this issue, also explaining boyfriend choice. Most anti-vaxxism is anti-Democratic factionalism or trumpist cultism, all other excuses transparent cover for that.

Distant third would be that she always leaned conspiracist and she and her boyfriend are now waiting for the call for the righteous to rise up kill the evil ones in both parties.

[MontanaMama]

19. She never was a conspiracy theorist.

However, she could be under the influence of the boyfriend. I don’t know him at all. And, there’s the fact that she lives in Wyoming now.

[Hortensis]

29. :) She didn't sound like it offhand, so "distant," though

smart, disciplined people can keep it well hidden.

Wyoming. Lots of people leave the blue cultures their friends knew them in to find their true selves among red. If that was it, I'd be happy for her.

We had a neighbor I truly thought was generally liberal minded until an aggressively conservative couple moved in, and then within a week while out walking I learned they'd found each other and I was enemy #1 to both women. I can't say I was happy for her, actually wished I'd made her suffer in silence more, but it was right for her.

[Hortensis]

32. :) She didn't sound like it offhand, so "distant," though

smart, disciplined people can keep it well hidden.

Lots of people leave the more blue circles their friends knew them in to fit better among red. If that was part of it, I'd be happy for her. Such a good friend who loves gardening too, though...

Nevertheless, my experience here in GA is that conservatives who will associate with in this era are okay, decent, enormously different from those who won't, or even worse practically speaking those who hide their hostility.

We once had a neighbor I truly thought was generally liberal minded until an aggressively conservative couple moved in, and then within a week while out walking I learned they'd found each other and I was enemy #1 to both women. I can't say I was happy for her, actually wished I'd made her suffer in silence more, but it was right for her.

[femmedem]

3. That is so sad. And shocking, given her profession.

I hope she understood why you don't want her to visit without it causing a rift. But it sounds like the friendship will always be different now, because she isn't quite who you thought she was.

It must be so hard: seeing her differently, not being able to see her in person at all, and worrying about her all at the same time.

[MontanaMama]

13. It will be different. You're 100% correct about that.

I see it as a personal safety issue AND I’m worried for her. On a deeper level, I also believe it’s a statement of her values and that bothers me immensely.

[orleans]

72. so well said: "a statement of her values"

i'm sorry she turned out to be this way.

[cilla4progress]

4. I'm sorry MM!

Can you share with is what you said to her and how? Cancelling the visit... 😥

Looking for suggestions...

[MontanaMama]

16. I think she's still coming up here to get her kids.

I just won’t be welcoming her in my home. Happy to relay the conversation. Here’s the text transcript:

Her: we’re rearranging our work schedules so that we can be in town over New Years. Any chance we could hang with you guys?

Me: I would love to have you guys over to celebrate. Just so you know, we are vaxxed and boosted. You guys too?

Her: I’m not worried at all. We had Covid in August so we did not get vaccinated. Good old fashioned immunity. Does that change anything? Please be honest.

Me: Damn. My friend! It does change things. I have to be honest about that and thank you for asking. I’m heartbroken. I need to tell you that we have a colleague in Kalispell who has Covid for the 2nd time in 6 months because he trusted his natural immunity. He is on a vent and is on his deathbed. Natural immunity doesn’t cut it at least not for very long.

Her: Damn. I have researched this shit since it first emerged and the information and misinformation kills me. Breaks my heart that it keeps families and friends away from each other.

Me: Me too. I love you dearly.

That was our conversation. I’m sick to my stomach. My trust/friend circle is very small. It feels even smaller right now.

[femmedem]

30. Given your very different views, you both did remarkably well with that conversation.

That is a master class in how to talk honestly about profound disagreements without insulting each other or burning bridges. Kudos to her for asking for honesty and kudos to you for giving her honesty with love.

[MontanaMama]

36. I really appreciate you saying that.

I feel awful and yet I’d feel worse if I knew her status and had her stay here anyway or worse yet…not even ask. Ugh.

[Crunchy Frog]

63. Anybody who still wasn't vaccinated in August was probably never going to get vaccinated.

I wonder what sort of "research" your friend is doing. Apparently, past infection gives almost no protection against Omicron.

Hope she stays safe.

[wnylib]

64. She needs to update her research.

With the original virus and the British one (alpha I think), re-infection was very rare. With later variants and delta, there were a few more re-infections, but still not very common.

With omicron, re-infection is the rule rather than the exception.

No matter which variant, it has always been possible from the start for asymptomatic people to pass it on to others.

It sounds like she is only concerned about herself and not thinking of what she might do to others. And she will be surprised about natural immunity when she gets omicron.

It is too late for her to be fully vaccinated in time for a New Year visit, but she should really do it soon for her own protection.

[smirkymonkey]

67. You handled that very well.

It's unfortunate that she doesn't see the urgency of being vaccinated after all that has passed. I am sorry for your friendship. I hope that it can survive. I am in a similar situation but we don't have the possibility of meeting at this point in time. I can definitely empathize with your situation. It must be devastating.

[DonCoquixote]

68. this is the meat

I need to tell you that we have a colleague in Kalispell who has Covid for the 2nd time in 6 months because he trusted his natural immunity. He is on a vent and is on his deathbed. Natural immunity doesn’t cut it at least not for very long.

Her: Damn. I have researched this shit since it first emerged and the information and misinformation kills me. Breaks my heart that it keeps families and friends away from each other.

In short, she is willign to igniore a FACT to prove her ego. Is she willing to visit your colleague in the hospital, or console their family after he dies?

[MontanaMama]

70. I believe you're correct.

Now that I think of it, I won’t say she was anti-mask in the beginning but she was quite vocal about them not being effective because people touched them too much. Now we know people aren’t getting Covid that way and that wearing a mask keeps us safer than without. Maybe her descent into fiction started sooner than I thought.

[cilla4progress]

71. What a sweet convo and

good friend! So great you were able to be honest with her! She took it well then, cancelling the visit?

We.cancelled.Christmas dinner with extended family, too. One branch decided to show up and surprise his mom (SIL). So, now his mom has to factor in dinner for an additional 5. She did say they are vaxxed - but not all boosted.

Awkward, but it worked.

[DeeNice]

5. It's really a gut punch when it comes from people who should know better.

It's like Covid is stalking us but so is this creeping anti-intellectualism. It's not new, but it's picked up quite a bit, it seems.

[louis-t]

6. I had a friend tell me that. My response?

"We're immune now because we all had it." Me: "Hey, you might be." This is a guy I worked for years ago. Very talented builder. I had to put up with Rush on the radio when I worked for him. He also did some work for my Mom when COVID first hit. Unmasked. I scolded him for not wearing a mask around my Mom. "Well, I'll stay away from her." He didn't.

[Ms. Toad]

7. A colleague of mine is a bit more blunt.

He was out with people he assumed were vaccinated. They told him they weren't. His response, "I thought you guys were smart?"

[MiniMe]

47. I always ask these days

Don't really trust people to tell me the truth.

[mnhtnbb]

9. You might want to send her the link to this article that discusses natural immunity.

Yes, apparently having COVID will confer some natural immunity--to strains previous to omicron--but for how long is unknown. It is known that adding vaccinations for someone who has previously had COVID will really boost antibodies to a level that could be effective for quite some time.

“There are some people who have the notion that after you’ve gotten a natural infection, you will be permanently protected against COVID-19 as if this were measles. But the two viruses that cause these infections are very, very different. The coronavirus protection wanes naturally after a period of time,” Schaffner told Healthline.

Because COVID-19 is caused by a coronavirus, which the type of virus the common cold is also caused by, he said researchers have an understanding of how other coronaviruses behave, which may help understand immunity for COVID-19.

“We all know we can get repeated common colds, and the studies on those viruses indicate that their protection begins to wane after about a year, and of course we can get new infections down the road,” he said.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/how-long-does-immunity-last-after-covid-19-what-we-know

Your friend is playing Russian roulette. Not a game I'd want to play. You could tell her that even the orange one has gotten both vaccinations AND booster after having had COVID. Better odds than trusting natural immunity.

[Caliman73]

11. Sorry to hear that about your friend. It is hard when people change.

Bottom line with humans is that we do not function solely on intellect.


There are a lot of medical professionals who also smoke cigarettes and drink excessively. They understand that smoking greatly increases the risks of cancer, emphysema, high blood pressure, stroke, etc... They know that drinking can lead to similar risks. They know that alcohol and nicotine are highly addictive. Yet, they still smoke and drink heavily.

Same with vaccines, especially for novel viruses. There is a lot of misinformation out there that plays not on intellectual abilities but on emotions. When emotions are aroused, the ability to think critically is diminished. Every good propagandist knows this. This is why Fox and right wing radio focus on what you should be afraid of or angry at. Keeping people emotionally aroused makes them less likely to use their critical thinking skills.

I work with elderly people, many of whom get scammed frequently. The people most likely to be financially scammed are former business people. Their business acumen is often used against them. They believe that they still have the skills to make deals and that makes them more likely to convince themselves that they are NOT being taken advantage of. That process is likely at play with medical pros who can convince themselves that the propaganda they are hearing is the medical truth.

[Ziggysmom]

42. Your synopsis is so true. Emotions block critical, logical thinking. People will also do

most anything so they don't have to admit they were wrong. Sadly, even if it kills them.

[Caliman73]

45. The worst thing that I heard of in my field of work...

when psychologists started working with advertising companies in their marketing. There have always been Snake Oil Salesmen but when people who study human behavior work with others to manipulate them to buy a car, or a handbag, or beer, or whatever, that to me is ridiculous.

Car advertising in the early years was about safety, mileage, and features. Then it became about an idea of being "well off" or "virile" and other abstract and emotional things.

It is sick.

[halfulglas]

65. Required reading in my freshman psychology class (60s)

Was The Hidden Persuaders." Appeal to emotion and give them twisted facts.

[DemUnleashed]

12. Too bad!

Such a shame you have to miss the opportunity to see her. I hope she took it well when you told her you can't see her

[malaise]

14. sad indeed

For the second year I’m not cooking Christmas dinner for the usual gang. We’ll have an open air breakfast on New year’s eve.

[AngryOldDem]

17. You did the right thing.

Heard an interview with a county health commissioner about the awkwardness of asking people about their vax status before having them over.

The big takeaway: Better to lose a friend than lose a life. Stark, but very true, especially since the means are readily available to everybody for protection.

I’m sure this hurts, but again you did the right thing.

[MontanaMama]

20. Thanks.

I needed to hear that…and I’m trying hard to believe I did the right thing. Even if she trusts her “natural immunity” I wish she could see that she’s risking others by not being vaccinated. Others meaning me…and my family.

This is so exhausting.

[AngryOldDem]

43. It's so exhausting because it's so unnecessary.

[MiniMe]

48. You did the right thing!

Especially at this time with Omicron going through. Different strains means any immunity may no carry through.

[TNNurse]

18. There are so many stories like this.

I am shocked at people who just do not get it. As an old nurse, I would have had to say how disappointed I am in her thought process. I also think she should lose any license she has pertaining to health care.

[MontanaMama]

22. Me too TNN.

She works as a medical director at a residential center for at risk youth. It boggles my mind that vaccines aren’t required in that environment.

[CTyankee]

21. You could try again with "Let's not give up...here's what you can do and then we both can be happy."

Just lead her gently and assume she wants to do it. If she says "no" you can say, "I think this is possible and then we can all be happy and feel secure."

[MontanaMama]

23. Thank you for the suggestion.

I’m considering the options. If it weren’t the dead of winter, we could maybe meet outdoors but it is cold and snowy here. Even if she got vaxxed today, she wouldn’t be fully protected by this time next week. Regardless, I can’t have her and the boyfriend stay in my little house with their current vaccination status.

I’ll let the dust settle and see where things sit.

[AllaN01Bear]

24. too bad that really smart people have gone this way .

[Irish_Dem]

25. Looks like GOP propaganda works on the intelligent and educated.

Not just the low intelligence and uneducated.

Unless it is willful ignorance. They know better but their racism/white supremacy makes them just go along with the GOP talking points.

[MontanaMama]

27. I have no idea where she did her "research".

I’m chalking it up to willful ignorance. She’s definitely not a white supremacist/racist. I know her well enough to know that. However, from the beginning, she was never all that concerned about Covid. 800,000 dead Americans concerns me.

[Irish_Dem]

33. I know, it is so odd when they don't care about 800,000 deaths.

And more to come.

Especially odd when they have medical or science training.
Surrounded by a pandemic and they are not concerned in the least.

Maybe it is good old fashioned denial.
Many people don't want to hear bad news that scares them.

[Stuart G]

26. Very sad about your friend

[MontanaMama]

28. Thank you.

I miss her terribly. I know we all have suffered from these types of losses.

[Delmette2.0]

31. My son loves to invite people over for football games.

Especially is their team is playing our favorite game. He has neighbors that were invited over for a game when COVID first started. It was beautiful warm weather so we watched outside, I donated my big TV for the day and we all gathered on the driveway and had a good time.

A few months ago her mother, who lived with them started having Oxygen supplies delivered. With in 6 or 8 weeks the mother died of COVID.

Last month he wanted to invite them to another game and he asked me of it was ok because I am always there and I have my own serious health problems. I said yes if they are all vaccinated. The young parents were but not the daughter. This was right around the time 5 years old and up were allowed the vaccine.

I had to say no and that I would be happy to stay home I didn't know how well the school was enforcing masks. I cannot risk it and they understood.

Now, another game is coming up. I need to chat with my son and see what he plans.

[MontanaMama]

37. Yeah. Those darned Bobcats

made it the big show, didn’t they?

[Delmette2.0]

57. LOL

Actually, son a daughter in law are Bobcat fans. She is from Livingston and they loved in Bozeman for about 8 years. They are very tolerant of other teams, it's just a game.

[barbtries]

34. Propaganda.

it's killing us.

[MontanaMama]

38. It certainly is.

If not from Covid, then from heartbreak.

[Emile]

35. I know 2 people who thought they had natural immunity and both are now dead!

Where in hell is this nurse working? My local St. Vincent hospital fired 25 healthcare workers in October for not being vaccinated. Her employer needs to know she is endangering the health of their patients.

[MontanaMama]

39. I don't know that her employer requires vaccinations.

She lives in WY and much like MT, state leadership is loosely goosey with all those safety protocols.

[mucifer]

69. She might have an exemption for "health reasons" I have 2 nurse coworkers who

somehow got that. They are tested weekly, but still seeing patients. We wear N95s with all our patients. So at least we have that to protect the patients.

[madville]

40. What's your primary concern?

If you are vaccinated and boosted then you should be protected, are you mostly worried about their health? Or is it more the principle of it?

With Omicron becoming the dominant strain very quickly, vaccination status seems less important to me now since the vaccinated symptomatic breakthrough infections are so common now. I’m back in the mindset like it’s the pre-vaccine days, everyone is likely to be a contagious carrier.

[MontanaMama]

41. My primary concern in my health and the health of my husband and son.

While we are all vaxxed and boosted in this house, she and her family are not. She is far more likely to be a contagious carrier not being vaccinated. Further, I don’t know if she and her boyfriend etc are being safe in their interactions in their own community, so between that and her vax status, I can’t in good conscience have her stay in my home. Bottom line is that I do not want to test the waters of a breakthrough infection.

[Deuxcents]

46. I agree with you

Tough love but your values and concern for your family come first. Your love n concern shines thru for your friend and I hope she realizes it.

[Cha]

77. Plus you can get COVID when

you've been fully vaccinated!

My granddaughter is an unfortunate example.. and it happened in Montana.

She came back to the University of Providence in Great Falls in September and got it a couple of weeks in.. and really sick for 2 weeks.

My daughter thinks she got it from her roommate who was asymptomatic.

I believe we've had this conversation.. so Sorry about your best friend's cavalier attitude towards this life and death Issue!

Aloha

[MontanaMama]

79. Aloha my friend.

I do recall you telling me about your granddaughter. That’s the whole thing right there, Cha…it’s Russian roulette with Covid. You can do everything right and still wind up sick or dead. I love my friend and I also love myself, my family and my life. I hope I’ll see her someday…but not right now.

[Cha]

83. So Well Said!

Merry Christas, MontanaMama!

[femmedem]

44. I realize your question wasn't directed at me, but here's how I think of it now:

Yes, everyone is a potential carrier, but the unvaccinated are still more likely to be carriers, both because they're more likely to be infected initially and because their contagious period lasts longer.

And yes, people who are boosted and vaccinated have good protection against serious disease and death, but there is still a risk. And even mildly symptomatic covid is no fun, given that "mild" can mean almost anything short of hospitalization. And here in CT, about 25% of the people hospitalized with covid are fully vaccinated, although the data I see doesn't talk about how many are boosted. (We have a high vaccination rate so the unvaccinated are much more likely to be hospitalized--but still, we have several hundred fully vaccinated people hospitalized with covid.)

And it goes two ways: I avoid people who are unvaccinated/unboosted not just because they are more likely to give covid to me but because I could unknowingly give covid to them, and it could be deadly.

[MontanaMama]

52. I like how you stated all that.

I’ll be referring back to your post…it makes sense and is a comfort.

[femmedem]

62. You're so kind even when you're hurting.

This whole thread has given me such enormous respect and appreciation for you. DU is a big place and sometimes it takes me a while to find the gems in our online community.

[Historic NY]

49. She doesn't and will learn the hard way....

Immunity if a fleeting thing when the rest of the population doesn't have it. She's setting herself up for natural selection.

[stillspkg]

50. Sad with you

It’s true. Absolutely everything TFG has and continues to touch is ruined. Even friendships. That’s what is so upsetting. Before we had to deal with him, our differences were never part of a discussion, now they loom large, and the kind of differences he has managed to create are sickness, even death vs health and mutuality.

Sad with you

[MontanaMama]

53. I appreciate your kind words

and it helps to that this isn’t an overreaction. I’ve been questioning myself all afternoon.

[GAdem2016]

51. Tell her about my daughter. Had COVID, also vaccinated (second Moderna last March)

She contracted COVID for the second time last week - we assume omicron. (She was scheduled to get her booster the day after she tested positive, darn it.)

My daughter is young (mid-20s), very healthy, so it's not an issue of a suppressed immune response.

Your friend is playing Russian roulette for sure. So sorry.

[ProfessorGAC]

54. I Know A Guy....

...who said he's just going to rely on his immune system.
I asked him "You do know that what vaccines do is let you rely on your immune system? It's not a treatment."
He replied that it's different. I just told him "No, it's not really different. It's just a head start. Where'd you get the dumb idea that it's anything other than a trigger for the immune system?" No reply.
I know I didn't influence him.
BTW: this guy was enlisted in the army for 20 years. He probably got vaxxed 20 times for one thing or another.
He's a Gadsden flag guy. So, clearly he self-radicalized.

[MontanaMama]

56. I had to look up Gadsden flag.

I see those everywhere and know what they are and mean but I didn’t know what they were called. At least we can identify these people from a distance.

I like how you said that vaccines allow you to rely on your immune system. It isn’t a treatment. Duh! Makes perfect sense. I’ll be using that going forward. Thank you.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

55. MM, I commend you for your wisdom.

This is the second year I'm spending without our usual get-together at my daughter's house and I hate this "new normal." I am proud that my family is respectful of the CDC's recommendations and we're all staying safe.

KY........ ......

[stillspkg]

58. What I know

As we enter into what is peak holiday for many, whatever your faith is, this is a trying time for all of us. I am grateful for this community as a place where sanity reigns. Thank you to all who maintain this site. My faith in God is strong; my faith in humanity is bolstered by all of you.

In the last two years, I have felt the trauma of having not being able to be with loved ones, and most difficult was when they were dying. I retired from my job a year ago in July when we were in the throes of COVID. I looked forward to spending time with my dog and purchased agility equipment because she was that good.

Toward the end of November she was diagnosed with cancer; it came on like a freight train. A year ago to this day, she had to be put down. Two days before she died, she wanted to go for a walk even though it was difficult for her to breathe. She stopped on the sidewalk in front of each neighbor’s house, sat down and looked at their front door. If they were home, they came out and loved on her, if not, she still sat there for a minute. She did this for 6 houses in each direction. I knew she was saying goodbye. I wish everyone could have known her. She was a teacher.

In memory of her, I wrote this poem and share it with all of you — especially you, MontanaMama—it speaks to me of the best gifts-ever.

The greatest miracle, life;
The greatest loss, life;

The greatest truth, life goes on;
The greatest falsehood; we are alone.

The greatest gift; suffering love
The greatest joy; hate is overcome

The greatest peace; a welcome home.
Our greatest strength is not our own.

[orleans]

73. thank you for this very moving post

i'm so sorry you lost your furfriend.
it tugs at my heart to read about her last walk.
it's a lovely poem, and a lovely post

take good care,
orleans

[stillspkg]

84. Thank you for sharing.

It’s so helpful to me that you shared your thoughts with me. I am pretty isolated

[GB_RN]

60. You'd Be Surprised At The Number Of Nurses...

Who are conservative/right wing...and now antivaxx🤦?♂️. I see them all the time, and it's really discouraging, when your profession is supposed to be grounded in the sciences and is touted as evidence-based. On the other hand, many nurses I know seem to come from really religious upbringings and backgrounds. So, I guess the religiosity overrides facts and logic.🤷?♂️

[Crunchy Frog]

61. It feels like this country has turned into "Invasion of the Body Snatchers".

I'm sorry that they seem to have gotten your friend.

[halfulglas]

66. Also add into the mix that they had COVID previously and survived.

It seems that those who trend Covidiot if they had it and it was mild, dismiss everything else about the pandemic except they had it and it was no big thing, ergo it's not really as bad as it's made out to be, almost completely ignoring the thousands and thousands of deaths. The fact that I'm in my 70s and had it last year, I've had people say to my face, "well, look how old you are and you're okay." I sometimes try to argue with them about what it was like but realize they don't really care. They think what they think and I'm flummoxed by them.

[flying_wahini]

74. I have 3 nephews/niece all sick with Covid in the last 24 hrs.

2 are Vaccinated x3 one is vaccinated x1 ~ After he got Covid a year ago didn’t feel like he needed another. ‘Natural’ immunity (to reason)

My son had One J&J last March and doesn’t feel he is at risk. I uninvited him to
Xmas. .

[TheRickles]

75. Would you get together with her if she/they tested negative?

[MontanaMama]

78. Good question.

She didn’t offer that and I didn’t ask. In the moment I was so full of emotion…partly because I might get to see her after two years and the other part was that I couldn’t believe she wasn’t vaxxed and that she thought she had good immunity from being sick in August.

[TheRickles]

80. Maybe it's not too late....

[NurseJackie]

76. Sorry to hear that nurse "Jackie" ended up being such a disappointment.

I have a couple of family members who feel the same way... we haven't seen them since the beginning of Covid, and I fully expect that the next time I see them will be at their own funeral.

[yardwork]

81. You did the right thing and sent an important message.

I think we have to push back on this bad behavior. It's not just the pandemic. Our democracy depends on it. We have to start telling people that we're disappointed in their behavior.

[MontanaMama]

82. I agree.

It doesn’t help to rail at them. But depriving them of our time and presence might do it at least for those that haven’t totall lost their damned minds.

[Meowmee]

85. In our county

Only 69-70 % of hcw took the vaccine when it became available to them and their families before everyone else. Being a hcw etc. does not mean you are intelligent, a hero or anything else, it does not mean you don’t subscribe to right wing crap & conspiracy theories. It is a shock on some level that such low quality people go into these professions I guess. I turned down and invite recently due to non vax status. I did not even bother to ask why no vax and was not given an explanation. It could be influence of the bf, but ultimately it is her decision.