Three ethical issues around pig heart transplants

[Jilly_in_VA]

A US man has become the world's first person to get a heart transplant from a genetically modified pig.

57-year-old David Bennett, who doctors say was too ill to qualify for a human heart, is doing well three days after the experimental seven-hour treatment.

The surgery is being hailed by many as a medical breakthrough that could shorten transplant waiting times and change the lives of patients around the world. But some are questioning if the procedure can be ethically justified.

They have pointed to potential moral trouble spots over patient safety, animal rights and religious concerns.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-59951264

[Hekate]

1. Goodness gracious

#1. The patient was about to die shortly
#2. The animal was destined for the dinner table
#3. No one ever has a transplant forced on them

[JohnSJ]

2. +++

[Disaffected]

5. Tis weird alright.

We slaughter pigs by the millions for food and leather and other stuff but heaven forfeit taking one to save a human life.

[Hekate]

19. Fortunately, no one will make you do that. Ever.

[PatSeg]

27. Same here

It is bad enough that we breed and raise animals to become food. Raising them for "parts" is also disturbing. If it was a dog or cat, a lot of people would be furious.

[Victor_c3]

33. I always found the double standard of saving the life of an animal and killing an animal interesting

I heard a story about a local fire department being called out to rescue a deer that fell into a frozen lake and I couldn’t help but roll my eyes. So, these guys spend this time and effort and potentially risk their own lives to rescue a helpless deer. Meanwhile I’m certain some of these same guys would shoot and murder that same deer for a trophy if it were hunting season.

The same goes for people who “rescue” cats and dogs. Rescue that animal, but turn around and murder another animal to feed it.

I guess not all meat is equal in the eyes of some people

[PatSeg]

36. Interesting analogy about the rescued deer

We see people go to extraordinary measure to rescue animals all the time, while being oblivious to the pain and torture their lifestyles create on a daily basis.

It has been almost thirty years since I gave up meat. We had house rabbits that we absolutely adored. When we found out that some stores sold rabbit meat, we realized how hypocritical our attitudes were about meat. Just imagine how outraged people would be if they went to their grocery store and saw dog or cat meat in the meat section. Our rabbits meant as much to us as any dog or cat. There were many letters of complaint to the grocery store from rabbit owners, myself included, and that was when I stopped eating meat.

That said, I will never understand hunting as a sport. The hunter sees something so beautiful in nature that they have to kill it? My passion is photography and when I see something beautiful, my first instinct is to shoot a picture.

[Disaffected]

28. I tend to be a little more pragmatic about it.

IMO there are three things to consider:

. A pig almost certainly has no awareness of mortality or, even its fate that will result from being an organ donor.

. A pig has no-one to mourn its passing.

. When a pig is dead, it has no awareness of the fact it has lost its life.

So, as long as the pig is raised and euthanized humanely, no harm, no foul. There is no cruelty or moral dilemma at any stage of the process.

[milestogo]

29. You haven't proven anything, you've just made assertions.

[Disaffected]

31. Not really trying to prove anything.

Just giving my point of view on the matter.

Personally, if I were in heart failure and a pig heart was available, I would take it. I suspect almost anyone else would also, if/when the time comes.

One other thing that comes to mind - the donor pig would probably not be alive in any case unless it was specifically bred for the purpose.

[PTWB]

30. Wearing animals makes a lot more sense than plastic, synthetic garbage.

Microplastics from clothing are a real problem.

[cinematicdiversions]

40. Okay no liver for you

I am sure the organs won't go unused.

[BlackSkimmer]

17. Apparently this patient had a lot of issues with not following medical advice, missing appointments.

I’ve got mixed feelings on this whole scenario.

[Jilly_in_VA]

32. You don't know

why that was the case. Until you've worked in poverty pockets like back country Appalachia (I have) or places where there are a lot of immigrants from developing countries, you might need to step back from that a little.

[BlackSkimmer]

34. I only know what I read.

And fyi, I spent my first five years out of college working with the elderly poor in Appalachia.

So you might step back on your assumptions there Jilly.

[Jilly_in_VA]

35. Are you a healthcare professional?

Because there's a difference. I spent 6 1/2 years doing home health care in rural Appalachia, east Tennessee to be specific. Of my 30 years in grade as an RN, I would say that about 25 of them were spent in that general area and one or two more around some other high poverty areas. In addition, I get a lot of feedback from my brother and sister-in-law, both MDs with some pretty extensive experience with IHS. So maybe you might want to think again before telling someone else to step back.

[BlackSkimmer]

37. Look, I have no idea why you want to pick a fight with me, but I'm not interested.

I simply quoted what I read. I spent considerable time in that area and with the folks who live there. I’m aware that most are extremely skeptical of healthcare professionals or anyone else working in that area to “help.” Neither your experience nor mine has anything to do with this man and his choices.

You took the snarky tone with me right off the bat, without knowing one thing about me or my experience. YOU were the first to tell someone to “step back” for your own reasons, of which I won’t even try to fathom.

Have a good day now, you hear?

[Jilly_in_VA]

38. You "only know what you read"---you said that.

And I beg to differ as to who took the snarky tone with whom.

Surprisingly, perhaps, to you, the people I worked with (especially in home health) were very happy to see me. Most of them needed some help learning about their medications and why they needed them. Not a few had very deficient reading skills, which made teaching a challenge, but we got along pretty well, especially once they found out I could speak their language. (As you are no doubt aware, Appalachian English is a little different from the academic midwestern type I grew up with!) But by that time I'd lived there long enough to be able to speak it without sounding fake. Skeptical? I hardly think so. They were happier to see their nurses than to have to deal with the doctor's office, and more than one told me so.

And that's all I have to say to you, because I don't think you get it at all. Have a nice evening.

[BlackSkimmer]

39. Ok Jilly.

[Jilly_in_VA]

3. My thoughts were too long for a brief comment

Medically I don't have a real problem. I'm kind of a pragmatist on that issue, being a retired cardiac RN. Cardiac pig valves have been around for a long time and there doesn't seem to be a major whoop about that. Mechanical hearts are dubious at best, thus far anyway. And there is a shortage of transplantable hearts, plus which not everyone is a candidate, as has been pointed out.

As for the second point, I have to reject that out of hand. I have no regard for PETA at all, and anyone who eats meat can bow out. Vegetarians who are so on moral grounds have the right to refuse such a transplant (or a porcine valve!) if they wish, but leave the rest of us out of it, please.

The third point is, I think, valid. In Hebrew it's called piku'ach nefesh but but broadly means to save a life. Certain things that would otherwise be forbidden are permitted in order to do that.

[Hekate]

6. The third point is valid for only certain religions. Jehovah's Witnesses refuse blood transfusions...

… and that’s of human blood. Anti-vaxxers refuse vaccinations, which ends up endangering the community. Some people choose to die of cancer rather than undergo chemo or bone marrow transplant, or any of the other rather agonizing treatments involved. And so on. Under US law adults are allowed to refuse medical procedures.

Hence my answer to #3. The transplant of any organ requires consent of the patient. If the patient’s religion forbids it, fine — there’s a very long line of other people who have desperate need and no qualms.

My own ethical qualms come from the known traffic in human organs from non-Western countries. Now THAT bothers me. A lot.

[PJMcK]

4. Here's a few ethical questions

Mr. Bennett was going to die. He still might not survive.

Should extraordinary efforts be used to save his life? Is he worth crossing "ethical" lines?

Is the pig's life more valuable than Mr. Bennett's?

Is there a hierarchy among animal lives?

Personally, I hope the patient survives. A human life may have been saved.

[Wounded Bear]

12. IIRC, the first human heart transplant recipient didn't live very long either...

The important part of this is the knowledge gained for future procedures.

[PJMcK]

16. I remember it well!

Last edited Tue Jan 11, 2022, 05:12 PM - Edit history (1)

Dr. Christiaan Barnard transplanted a heart from a woman who had died in a car crash into Louis Washkansky in Cape Town, South Africa. I can't believe I remember those names but it made a searing impression on my 9-year old mind and I read everything about it that I could get my hands on. This was long before the internet in 1967. Mr. Washkansky lived a little more than two weeks and he died from infections because his immune system had been weakened by the anti-rejection drugs he was given. The heart performed perfectly until his death.

You're correct, of course, that the lessons learned from this recent procedure will inform doctors going forward.

[BlackSkimmer]

18. I remember that too. About the same age as you.

It was amazing.

[Jilly_in_VA]

23. So do I

Probably a little older. I was blown away at the time. Now it's routine stuff. In fact, a guy I know rather well is a heart recipient. And I know a bunch of other organ transplant recipients.

[BlackSkimmer]

25. It's truly amazing.

The things we’ve seen in our lifetimes…

[Hortensis]

7. I remember a wonderfully noble and heroic transplant patient.

Can't even remember for what at the moment (getting old here!), much less his name, but I remember him.

He was, I believe, a physician dying of something like 2 or 3 different conditions, who knew he wouldn't survive to go home with the transplant. All that was in it for him was inevitable great suffering -- and the special chance to help mankind take this great step on his own way out.

[NQAS]

8. Mixed feelings

The first point is pretty stupid. The patient knew it was a last-ditch effort and consented. He wasn't being forced, and obviously felt that the risk was worth it. Why is this even an issue?

Religious? Kosher/not kosher. As above, don't really care.

The animal rights thing? This bothers me a bit. Sure, we kill animals by the millions for food. So maybe it's okay to breed animals to help save human lives. OK. But think about this. Rhinos and other animals have been poached almost to extinction for Chinese medicines. Unlikely to happen with pigs, given how many are bred, so to speak, in captivity. But where does one draw the line. Let's say medical research finds that horses have something crucial for human medicine? Should we raise horses for this purpose? Etc.

Just sayin'.

[Hekate]

20. Horses have already contributed serum for vaccines and hormones for menopausal women...

When I was a small child, my even younger brother used to get quite a reaction to his vaccinations. I remember Mom muttering something about horse serum. Later on, eggs were used in the preparation of certain vaccines, and those who were allergic to eggs also needed a workaround.

As for the hormones, Premarin is literally from Pregnant Mare’s Urine.

[Jerry2144]

9. The bigger question is

Which surgeon did the transplant operation to take a jelly fish’s spine and install it into Ted Cruz.

[BannonsLiver]

10. 5th OP I've seen today on this subject.

What am I missing?

[BlackSkimmer]

26. A guy got a pig heart.

I’m not being lazy, but terrible at links on my phone. Google will get it for you.

Interesting story.

[Thunderbeast]

11. In 1994, my mother received a pig valve that gave her many good years of life

The night before the surgery, a nurse wheeled a TV and VCR into her room. We all watched a short video telling us what to expect the next day. Clips were shown of patients going to recovery, ICU, to a room, and withinn five days, leaving the hospital.

The movie showed all of the tubes and sensors that were applied post-surgery (scary to the un-familiar). It was reassuring to see how this radical surgery results in such a fast recovery (even faster now that this procedure is done without opening the chest).

When video ended, the nurse returned to the room.

"Any Questions" she asked.

My mother, always irreverant, paused and asked:

"WHAT MOVIE DID YOU SHOW THE PIG?"

[Hekate]

21. I like your mother! A lot!

[Meowmee]

13. Those who would question it

They had better immediately stop taking any medications and medical treatments / surgeries etc. because the large majority all have similar ethical issues, most have been tested on animals etc.

[SYFROYH]

15. I think its important for ethicists to ask the questions, but the answers seem pretty easy.

I like when PETA exposes facilities that are not maintaining policy or legislative practices with the care of their animals (even slaughter houses), but I hate when they wade into things like this.

[Hekate]

22. I agree

[Celerity]

24. what if the pig has no heart?