COVID death celebration evokes memories of HIV death celebration

[Sympthsical]

As a young gay man, I had a very formative impression instilled in me in my developing years. When people on the Right (and sometimes not so much) were happy when someone they hated died of AIDS. And I'm not talking about the 1980s when HIV wasn't understood well, when transmission was a bit unknown, when the risks weren't fully understood.

I'm talking about in my lifetime, in my adolescence during the 90s and beyond. Rush Limbaugh had several infamous remarks about it. "I hope you get AIDS and die," was something still said when I was a teenager and trying to shape my identity and struggle out from the clouds of Catholic guilt and shame and society's broad disapproval of what my life would be.

It's inhumane. The people who engaged in it had no empathy. They barely saw the afflicted as people. They were the bad people, the people who deserved it. And yes, a lot of people in my community ended up getting it through bad choices. Risky sex. After they knew better, they still made those choices.

Ask yourself, were you there clapping when those people died from poor choices? Were you clapping when people who lacked sex education or received misinformation wasted away from a disease they walked into?

Maybe it's me, maybe I'm wired differently, but HIV and AIDS have existed my entire life. That cloud of death, that lost generation shaped and formed who I ultimately became as a gay man. I remember, when I was preteen or teen, nearly every gay movie I could find (which wasn't easy when sneaking into the local Blockbuster), was about death or grief or about whether or not a positive man and negative man should date. A sadness hovered over everything, that life and love were fleeting and always would be, because the plague coated everything in a dangerous film. Even in a happy film like "Jeffrey" someone had to suddenly die of AIDS by the end.

And the Right loved it. High five! Another one of those dead. Could you imagine if there was a subreddit called the Freddie Mercury Awards? Would you be ok with that?

I won't celebrate death and suffering. Even if that person thinks differently than me about politics. Even if that person made a poor decision that resulted in getting disease. Death to me is a sadness. When a terrible person dies, it's still a sadness, because I think about what that person's life could have been had they made different choices or had different opportunities.

Celebrating the death of the Other is something I grew up with. It's not something I'll ever share in. And when I see others do it, I think lesser of them.

Being a lesser person is always a choice.

JMHO.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

1. K&R

[MineralMan]

2. Exactly. I never celebrate anyone's death. Period.

I wish people would get vaccinated. If they don't, I hope they don't get COVID-19 and die. I have relatives who won't get vaccinated. I hope they survive the pandemic. I don't like their politics, but they're my relatives.

Wishing people dead is macabre.

[Sympthsical]

3. Preventative death always gets the same response to me

"I wish they had made different choices." It's deeply regretful when someone dies unnecessarily.

People make their choices. But the response should at least be somewhere below glee.

[paleotn]

70. Not wishing. Acknowledging Karma.

If they go out of their way to not only endanger their own lives, but the lives of everyone around them, they reap exactly what they sow. Big difference than celebrating someone's death.

[Initech]

87. I won't wish death but I do say with all sincerity: fuck these assholes.

In my town, we're dealing with a situation where one kid who is showing up to school without a mask got suspended, and the fucking psychopathic MAGA idiot who got elected to the school (who I ranted about before the 2020 election here, and then again when said MAGA idiot got caught at the Jan 6th rally in DC) is helping spearhead an anti-mandate lawsuit targeted at the very school board that she got elected to. Oh and thanks to this kids' recklessness, the board is threatening to shut down the district and send everyone to online learning until the omicron wave is over.

So yeah. fuck these fucking morons.

[LoisB]

4. Perfectly said. Thank you.

[gratuitous]

5. People dying from their own stubborn ignorance . . .

Simply noting that the death they were courting finally came to visit itself on their pointy little heads isn't "celebrating" their deaths. Besides, these folks were perfectly happy with their life choices that resulted in their agonizing deaths, and they didn't give a tin shit about what I thought. Why would what I think now that they're dead make one bit of difference to them now?

Simply observing an inevitable sequence of events isn't "celebrating" it. Also, I don't recall too many persons with AIDS going to their graves exultant about how they had shown up their ideological adversaries.

[Sympthsical]

6. As I said, many people got HIV from bad choices

I have friends and exes today who contracted the virus within the past ten years. They knew better. They have the education. Fortunately, we have drugs now that allow them a full and extended life.

Did I run to social media and start celebrating or gloating or even just going, "Serves them right!"

What kind of person would do that?

I'm sorry. The excuses and rationales don't work for me. Plenty of people died of the disease who looked back fondly, remembering the good times, the very life that led them to that point. Time has made people forget.

People can be a hell of a lot better than this if they want. If they want. Some are happy with the hate.

And there has been plenty of celebrating. I won't be gaslit on that one.

[Moebym]

33. I'm sorry, but there is a difference. This is about the *intent* to do harm.

Your family and friends did not, like many unvaxxed COVID-19 patients did, deliberately engage in risky behavior that they knew could cause harm to others. (With COVID-19, it takes just one person to cause a cluster of cases, so the potential for harm was enormous.)

They did not test positive, lie about it, then go to gatherings with someone they knew was immunocompromised and therefore vulnerable.

They didn't threaten essential workers trying to serve them or enforce rules that would help curb the spread of the virus.

They did not intentionally cough on or touch cancer patients or other immunocompromised people to infect them.

They did not go to testing stations to harass the staff and steal their equipment.

I could go on.

[orwell]

52. This a major difference...

...the lack of concern for everyone but themselves is core to the anti-vax decision.

If they decided not to get vaccinated and then quarantined themselves for the duration of the pandemic then they are free to do as they wish.

But these people have knowingly made themselves willing petrie dishes that can inflict untold harm on society.

HIV never shut down the global economy. HIV is not a respiratory virus with a highly contagious exponential infection rate.

These people are knowingly becoming viral hosts spreading the disease to those who are doing everything they can to get life back to normal as rapidly as possible. And not only that, some are actively spreading misinformation that will kill thousands. How is this different from mass murder?

I agree with you. I have no compassion for such selfishness. In this case it is not a "bad personal choice", it is akin to negligent homicide.

[IrishAfricanAmerican]

113. Exactly!

Apples and oranges with a few overlapping similarities.

[treestar]

94. Still a big difference

How can you not see that? Getting one vaccine which helps tremendously, vs. many decisions over time which may or may not have caused them to contract the disease, one where bad luck in one decision can cause one to contract it, while several might slide, and have the good luck not to get it? It is not nearly as focused as it is with Covid. All you have to do is get the vaccine and wear a mask. Vs. many different decisions about who to have sex with over the years and how much risk to take.

[brewens]

8. I might not have paid close enough attention, but I don't remember the kind of denial, defiance and

outright refusal to take any precautions for AIDS as we see everywhere for COVID. There were not prominent gay people egging that kind of behavior on either. Giving someone the Herman Cain or "F" around and find out award, isn't the same as anything that went on with AIDS.

[dsc]

26. In the early days of HIV there were some number of people who refused to take precautions

there were several groups of gay idiots who refused to close bathhouses and refused to wear condoms. You also had bug chasers. That said, it didn't take long for the community to become better in that regard. The overwhelming majority of the community was responsible.

[ProfessorGAC]

28. Were They Openly...

...discouraging others from being safe or aggressively spreading disinformation about routes of transmission?
If not, I don't think the parallels suggested in the OP are on solid ground.

[dsc]

31. Oh yes they were

especially in terms of the bath houses. Those were businesses and didn't want to be closed down. In their defense, it wasn't completely nuts to think that people were taking advantage of a virus to sex shame gays. But even well after it was well established that the danger was real, those bath house defenders were still at it.

[ProfessorGAC]

37. I'll Trust You, But...

...they weren't blowtorching it on the internet & on major mass media for profit & fame.
I still think we're comparing golf balls to whales.

[FreeState]

41. But they were

Look up HIV denialism in the gay male community in the 90s. It parallels COVID - it’s not real, government hoax etc. there people making money and publishing materials they made money off of it.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_denialism

[ProfessorGAC]

57. Hardly My Point

Your reply has little to do with what I said regarding scale.
The differences are oceanic is width.
I acknowledged that I trusted the observations of dsc.
I still don't think they're comparable.

[FreeState]

80. I'm not sure if your part of the LGBT community or if you were aground then

I’m not sure if your part of the LGBT community or if you were aground then but I was responding 100% to your comment.

The denialist were active online and in the print media. They had strategy and communities. You could not go anywhere without reading their BS. Within the community it absolutely was the scale of what we’re seeing with COVID. It still exist in some communities.

The attitudes are the same regardless of how many people were at risk of contracting HIV.

[dumbcat]

84. It certainly wasn't blowtorching on the internet at that time

The 'net didn't really get popular until the mid to late 90's.

[Scrivener7]

43. But that was them choosing to put themselves in danger. Not other people. Going to a bath house

was a choice. One could choose to go and take one's chances, or not to go. We don't have the choice to not go to doctor's offices or supermarkets or jobs, etc.

[Sympthsical]

54. How do you think HIV spread?

It didn't fall out of the sky like a catastrophic comet of disease. People made poor choices and then spread it to others who maybe didn't think they were making a poor choice.

The first boyfriend I had who was HIV positive got it from his boyfriend. His boyfriend cheated on him. The boyfriend didn't know he caught it, and my ex thought he was in a monogamous relationship.

Omicron is showing us people who do this. My partner's friend didn't think he had it. He gave it to my partner and assorted other people. And then my partner gave it to me.

I have done all that has been asked of me. Always wear a mask, socially distance, work from home, stay away from group activities. I still got it. It only took one person to think they were fine when they were not and all the people down the chain trusting that one person. I didn't even know I was trusting that one person up the chain. He thought he had a cold and didn't draw attention to it. Many people with HIV had no idea they had it and spread it to others.

That's why I say, this eagerness to rain down righteousness is not a good look. At least not to me, who has lived with and through a community that went through an epidemic involving a lot of death.

[Scrivener7]

67. So I must have as much sympathy for the cheater as I do for your boyfriend? Sorry,

I don't. I lost a friend the exact same way in the 80s: her boyfriend cheated with another man, then didn't tell her when the man turned up positive.

She died at 27.

I have recently retired from a health care position. I am right now living with and through a community that is going through a lot of death.

I simply will not waste my already stretched supplies of empathy on people who are doing everything they can to take others down with themselves.

That is not "raining down righteousness." It is simply a nod and an acknowledgment that their deaths are not surprising.

And yes, it is relief that it is happening to someone who invited it rather than someone who is doing everything possible to stop the spread.

[Sympthsical]

73. There is a vast difference

Between stretching one's supply of empathy and actively and aggressively spreading hatred. The former is an inaction, the latter a direct, intentional action.

Checking out is one thing. Not feeling bad, not expending the energy. That's fine.

This crap that has been permeating? That isn't any of those things. When someone's going to paint with ugly, they first need to choose to pick up that brush.

[Sympthsical]

53. I'll second what dsc is saying

I've consumed a lot of documentaries and movies about the time, read the old newspaper articles (major and local, gay and straight), and also have gay friends much older than me who have talked about that period over the years.

The bathhouse closings were on my mind as I was writing the OP. There was absolutely resistance to it in the beginning. In some quarters, people felt it was being used as an excuse for persecution. It was a whole thing.

[brewens]

39. I actually remembered some of that, but I didn't think it was widespread or lasted very long. I also

wasn't sure if that was embellished and amplified by homophobes. Or possibly RW asshole agitators trying to stir things up.

[treestar]

95. Exactly. There was no contingent denying that AIDS exists,

saying it's a hoax, or encouraging unsafe sex!

[cinematicdiversions]

105. There was a largish group exactly like that

That was persistent through at least the early 21st century.

The gay equivalent of the HAES crowd if you will.

We forget how local heath officials in New York and San Francisco were attacked for closing down bathhouses as an example.

[treestar]

106. If any of them contracted AIDS

did anyone dance on their grave?

But then AIDS is much tougher to get and affected a minority, but COVID affects everyone.

[BlackSkimmer]

7. K and r.

Thank you for this!

[Runningdawg]

9. Retired now but as a new nurse I saw much the same from coworkers during the AIDS crisis

And its erie how close it is to what many of them are experincing with covid now. Back then, all a nurse had to do was say it's against their religion to take care of a gay person and they were excused. The patients were handed down the line until they fell to people like me who was working doubles because I couldn't leave my patients knowing no one would check on them while I was gone.
It wasn't just the patients that were treated badly, anyone who willingly took them as patients, were obviously gay themselves and a threat to be around. Co workers who I had previously called friends wouldn't allow me in the break room. They didn't want me in the same locker room. I would call for help with a patient, no one would come. The hosptial did nothing about it. It was disgusting. 40 years later, it seems not much has changed. We have 3 nurses in our family and all have reported being harassed by patients and their families and being threatened on the job.

[beaglelover]

10. IMO it's very immature behavior to celebrate someone's

Death.

[BlackSkimmer]

11. That's a kind way to put it.

I find it horrid.

I don’t get being gratified about the death of any creature.

[beaglelover]

19. Me either.

[BlackSkimmer]

48. ...

[treestar]

108. Come on, there's a limit

Don't make me violate that internet law. Surely there are people bad enough to find their death is an occasion where they at least can't do further harm to others.

[treestar]

107. We are talking about people we don't know

personally. That's bound to have an effect. We didn't know Rush Limbaugh personally. We strongly disliked what he said and how he influenced people. Some might say OK we feel bad for family - we know we did not know them as a person, as a whole person. If you become famous, you risk that, but then you get a lot of praise and adulation too. They aren't going to be hurt by our reactions either. They don't know us as people either.

[Jon King]

12. Nope, totally 100% disagree, have never disagreed with anything more, ever.

Not even close to a proper analogy. Wishing someone dies of HIV is pure evil.

Wishing a Trumper MAGA untra religious freak who would not hesitate to destroy my kid's climate, make them have to wear bulletproof backpacks to school because they worship guns, and would not think twice about non Trump voters being rounded up and put into re-education camps?

No way, equating someone's 'choices' about their sexuality and they die of AIDS to being glad someone is no longer around who is actively seeking to destroy my family is ridiculous.

[Sympthsical]

13. You've got your Other down pat

Which is nice for you.

[Jon King]

17. Never liked cryptic responses.

Whats your point? Some threads I agree with 100%, this I disagree with 100%. Its called having an opinion. Old proverb.....be a decent person and I will give you a kidney if you need one......come after my family and I wish you did not exist and will not bat an eye when you no longer cease to exist.

Perhaps not an actual proverb, but it sure should be.

Have a nice day.

[Moebym]

25. Don't expect a response. He's probably blocked you.

In no way was your comment suggestive of you "othering" anyone.

[Sympthsical]

42. I don't block people

Doesn't feel intellectually honest.

Weird you said that, though. I've never declared I was blocking someone. Not sure why you'd say that of me.

[Sympthsical]

44. You've created an Other

As if Trumpists are the only ones this is all coming down on. That's a narrative that won't quit.

Death rarely remains stationary.

African Americans Make Up More Than 70 Percent Of Chicago’s COVID-19 Deaths

https://chicago.cbslocal.com/black-chicagoans-make-up-70-of-coronavirus-deaths-in-chicago/

I don't find any happiness in what we're experiencing. It affects friends and foes alike.

Gandalf was right.

[jcmaine72]

114. It's sad that the people accusing you of hiding behind the Block User

function avoided addressing this fact-filled post.

As if people celebrating and mocking the deaths of others isn't disturbing and vile enough, it becomes even more disturbing when one looks at the actual numbers and realizes that the unvaxxed people dying of this horrible disease in the largest numbers aren't even part of the demographic that those doing the mocking think they are.

The question then becomes, do they know this? And if so, are they aware that this now makes them every bit as bigoted, hateful and malicious as the people they hate?

[BlackSkimmer]

50. Oh, well said. Probably go over the heads of those who need to hear it.

But that’s ok.

[beaglelover]

21. So In your opinion someone chooses their sexuality?

Interesting…..

[Moebym]

24. If you haven't noticed, choices was in quotes.

He was not expressing agreement with the lie that being gay is a choice.

What he meant was that equating laughing at the deaths of AIDS victims who did not make the choice to be gay is not remotely comparable to shaming those who died of COVID-19 by choosing not to vaccinate, mask, or social distance and deliberately putting others at risk.

[Sympthsical]

45. The choice is in the behavior

Not the orientation.

Some made the choice to be more careful than others.

Just as we see now.

Should I condemn and be specific based on that? "You got HIV even though you used protection? Ok, I feel bad for you. Oh, you barebacked on the first date? Hahahahaha! You deserve all the suffering you get!"

Yeah, no. Again I ask - what kind of human being behaves this way?

[edhopper]

69. I agree Jon

People who have worked to stop COVID preventive measures for others, then die of it do not get my sympathy or regret of them passing.

[Farmer-Rick]

99. I agree with you Jon King

Equating someone who has AIDS because they had sex with someone is not the same as someone refusing medical attention because they align themselves with a dangerous political ideology.

Yes, there are other ways to get AIDS, but the people who were cheering the deaths of AIDS victims, were cheering because they thought the person was gay. It's the same people who now are refusing vaccines and not wearing masks. Yeah, there are a few who don't get vaccinated because they don't have time, are medically unable or don't care, but the majority deliberately do not get vaccinated because they align themselves with the cult of Trump. Not innocent victims of a pandemic but willing spreaders of a deadly disease.

Yeah, there were some, not many, who were arrested for spreading AIDS but very few people who knowingly and gleefully spread COVID are held accountable. Oh well you died because your adult neighbor doesn't believe in vaccines, too bad so sad but that maskless, unvaccinated neighbor breathed on you.

Your last paragraph says it all: "No way. Equating someone's 'choices' about their sexuality, and they die of AIDS, to being glad someone is no longer around, who is actively seeking to destroy my family, is ridiculous."

[Ferrets are Cool]

14. That is a gag inducing analogy

[Jon King]

18. It is, a simply terrible analogy.

Yeah, someone laughing about someone dying of AIDS is the same as not being sad when a MAGA dies who wants you and your family to be destroyed is the same. Give me a break.

[live love laugh]

101. I agree this is total broad brush bullshit. They keep trying to make this an issue and it's BS. nt

[ripcord]

15. Agree 100%

I feel that wishing death on someone says more about the person doing the wishing that those they hate.

[ProfessorGAC]

29. Fine. I'll Wear It

If you think less of me because I want willfully ignorant, dangerous purveyors of disinformation to catch COVID & die, I'll live with it.
Without shame, and no scolding is going to change that.

[Sympthsical]

59. I'm not in the business of scolding

Especially not ostensible adults who are older than me.

I'm trying to get people to see how their behavior looks from the outside and how inhumane and lacking in empathy it is.

It's some ugly shit. If people are cool with it, "Yeah, fuck em, people I hate should die!" that's cool. Currently going through that phase with one of my nephews.

But he's 15, so.

[roamer65]

16. If someone doesn't want to get vaccinated against CoVID, let them suffer the consequences.

If they die, so be it.

I really don’t care.

[Jon King]

22. Thank goodness, I was beginning to worry about things here!

On our way out the door, but at least some here get it. These people's choices have affected so many innocent people, destroyed businesses, ruined kid's lives. It sure as heck is nothing like someone dying of HIV in any way, shape, or form.

[Haggard Celine]

32. Yes, there was no vaccine for AIDS.

If there had been, I think practically everyone would have gotten it. This shit today where people are taking every so-called remedy under the sun and ignoring a life-saving vaccine is nothing like the AIDS epidemic. I'm not saying it's okay to laugh about people dying of Covid, but antivaxxers are in a totally different league from people who got sick with AIDS in the early days. If there had been a shot back in the 80s that was proven to have the same efficacy as the Covid vaccines, virtually every gay man in the U.S. would have been lining up to get their shots.

[paleotn]

81. Exactamundo!

[Moebym]

20. I am having a difficult time feeling sorry for them.

I cannot feel any sympathy for people who knew what they were doing was harmful, but made the choice to do it anyway.

Ignorance is not an excuse. Factual information about vaccines, masks, and viruses is almost literally at our fingertips, but they seek out information that confirms their fears and doubts and refuse to let go of their beliefs, even doubling down when confronted.

They have threatened medical staff, supermarket employees, airline pilots and stewardesses, and countless other essential workers for calmly trying to enforce rules designed to keep customers and employees safe. They have threatened school board members with being shot if they enforce mask mandates to protect children.

By their choice not to mask, distance, or vaccinate they are killing and maiming people they have never met, never mind people they know and love. They are testing positive and still choosing to be near people who are immunocompromised. They are putting our doctors, nurses, and paramedics under unbearable strain, and depriving cancer patients, accident victims, and countless other people with serious medical problems of the care they need.

It is a shame they died, but they had opportunities to make the right choice and willfully chose to make the choice to be disease vectors.

[GoCubsGo]

56. That is roughly where I'm at.

I'm not going to celebrate anyone dying, even these brain-washed, ignoramuses who brought it on themselves. It's more "indifference mixed with anger." I won't mourn them. I'm saving that for the families their ignorance and selfishness ruined. Not just their own families, but those of people who died after they infected them, or who died because they were taking up the ICU bed that person need for some other issue. And, for the many healthcare workers are they killing, or driving away from their professions due to mental and physical exhaustion.

Part of me feels sorry for these idiots, but the more this whole situation continues, the harder it's getting for me to care what happens to them. But, it's nothing to celebrate. It's just fucking tragic.

[Moebym]

68. We are all afflicted with COVID fatigue.

Good on those of you who can still find it in yourselves to feel badly for people who directly or indirectly caused harm to others through negligence or intent to cause harm, but my sympathy reserves are finite, and I'm reserving my sympathy for people who are truly innocent victims.

[GoCubsGo]

83. My pity for them isn't sympathy.

It's the "crying shame," Mr. T "I pity the fool" sort of pity. My my sympathy reserves for them are pretty much depleted, as well.

[ShazzieB]

85. I think I'm just about where you are.

I don't think I have ever actually celebrated anyone dying. I just can't muster up much sympathy for people who willfully and deliberately refuse to get vaccinated, won't mask up, and end up dying of covid because of it.

I feel terrible for anyone who gets sick because of these bozos, especially the immunosuppressed and anyone who doesn't have access to the vaccines. I feel even more terrible for the health care workers who have to deal with them every day. But the bozos themselves?

These people aren't just endangering themselves with their bad choices. They endanger ALL of our lives and the lives of everyone we hold dear. They're serving as petri dishes for the development of new variants and as vectors who spread those variants far and wide. I'm ANGRY with them for that. I'm angry with them for all the damage they're doing and all the suffering they cause.

This disease is spread through the air we breathe. No matter what precautions I take personally, unless I stay home all day every day, from now until God knows when, I could still get this disease. I'm vaxxed and boostered so not very likely to have a bad outcome, but the possibility is still there for my husband and me, just because we're over 70 with pre-existing medical conditions.

I've been living in fear of this disease for almost 2 years now, and I am freaking sick and tired of it and of the people who are doing things that encourage it to continue raging out of control.

But celebrate people dying? No, not really. When someone who is known for actively working to spread disinformation and lies about the severity of this disease and the importance of masking and getting vaccinated is hoist by their own petard, I've been known to breathe a sigh of relief that there is now going to be one less person doing that. If someone wants to call that celebrating even though I don't feel the least bit celebratory, so be it.

I've also been known to indulge in gallows humor at the expense of antivaxxers and maskholes. This is not celebrating either. It's a coping mechanism, and it helps me keep my sanity. According to Dictionary.com, gallows humor is "humor that treats serious, frightening, or painful subject matter in a light or satirical way." It's a way of shrinking scary or disturbing things down to a size that makes them a little easier to deal with, something that can be very helpful in times like these. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but it is mine, and from what I can tell, I have a lot of company. This is NOT celebrating, even though it involves laughter. Anyone who doesn't find it funny is welcome not to laugh, but please believe me I say that some of us NEED to be able to relieve tension in this way. If you think that makes us a bunch of sickos, here's something that might help you understand better: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/crisis-control/202006/in-praise-gallows-humor

Going forward, I will do my best to not appear to celebrate anyone’s death, because I agree that is wrong. But I'm afraid you'll have to pry my gallows humor from my cold dead hands, because I am not giving that up. I need it to survive all this craziness.

[FelineOverlord]

23. These two things are not the same

When these anti-vaxxers and maskholes spew their filth all over social media or the radio they convince easily brainwashed people NOT to get vaccinated or wear masks.

Which means they can spread this illness quite easily.

Now I do cringe when some people seem to CELEBRATE these deaths (they certainly do it on sorryantivaxxer.com).

However, when it is someone with the power of a Marcus Lamb, I am not sorry when they die. They have caused untold numbers of people to die. His Daystar Television Network is the second-largest Christian network in the world after CBN. He died, and his widow is STILL spewing her filth.

I HATE these people.

https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/post/marcus-lamb-64-dallas-tx-televangelist-anti-vaxxer-and-anti-vaxx-promoter-died-from-covid

I feel the same way about politicians.

Five years of dealing with deranged lunatics and two years of dealing with crazed COVID conspiracy theorists have left me numb.

This was discussed on CNN recently.

[Hekate]

27. Thank you for calling us to at least recognize the better angels of our nature...

Gods know I struggle, torn between raw anger at the Trumpistas of this nation and raw fear for the people I love who are refuseniks.

I think you are right to bring up the AIDS epidemic and the fear, hysteria, anger, and anguish that accompanied it. It’s like no one remembers. Well, everything’s okay now — there’s Biktarvy ads on TV where two gay men — Black, even! — are kissing each other to show how okay everything is.

Willful forgetting is a feature of our culture. So what if your analogy is not exact? Analogies never are.

[Moebym]

63. The analogy is far from "not exact". It's not even in the ballpark.

The mockery of antivaxx COVID-19 victims is motivated by the intentional or at least negligent harm that many of them have caused. The virus is also more highly transmissible, meaning one person has the potential to cause a lot of harm. There is a vaccine for COVID-19, but we have ~60 million in this country alone who won't take it, which is bad enough by itself, but they are also ripping masks off strangers, stealing equipment from testing stations, forging vaccination cards to travel, threatening essential workers, setting up social media pages promoting "alternative" treatments, trying to defeat mask and vaccine mandates, etc.

The mockery of AIDS victims and the inaction on the epidemic was motivated by hatred and lack of understanding of people who did not choose to be who they were and who did not have access to the information and resources we have today that would have warned them of the dangers. There was no cure or treatment for AIDS at the time.

[ismnotwasm]

96. Definitely agree.

I lost nearly every friend I had as a teenager to violence or AIDS. The healthcare community back then didn’t want HIV around them, much less AIDS. And we all know gay men, *who to this day*, are denied access to their partners because of who they are.

[Tomconroy]

30. What was it, 70 million people voted for Trump? That's a lot of

people to hate.

[Scrivener7]

34. Celebrating the deaths of gay people and not being upset when another anti-vaxxer dies

are two very, very, very different things.

I'm busy feeling for my people who have been put in mortal danger by the anti-vaxxers. Some have died. One very close to me could not get treated for a very easily cured cancer. As a result it has spread and she is now in a hell of chemo and radiation. In a hospital teeming with anti-vaxxers who have contracted Covid.

I have no more emotions to give for idiots who are causing the deaths of others along with their own.

[Sympthsical]

46. Only different because it's convenient to make them different

Because if the similarities were recognized, that might require some self-awareness and reflection and perhaps an admission of being in the wrong.

And when it comes to partisan politics, how often does it happen?

About as often as I take hay rides.

[Scrivener7]

86. You get upset every time you hear that another anti-vaxxer died? I'm sorry but that's ridiculous.

[Paladin]

90. "I'm not in the business of scolding" you claim, up-thread.

No further comment. Enjoy your next hayride.

[Scrivener7]

91. Yes. If not a business, maybe it's a hobby.

[treestar]

97. yes! A better analogy might be someone who has AIDS

and then has sex with people they don't tell about it. And that only when AIDs was 100% fatal.

[BradBo]

35. Bullshit.

Gay folks were not going around intentionally infecting innocent people with the AIDS virus.
I’ve seen people that made a choice not to get vaxxed so they can trigger the liberals go out in the general public after they caught Covid.
Not giving a shit whom they infect.
Every ant- vaxxer that dies of Covid improves this planet a tiny bit. That includes Meatloaf, he was a scum bag.

[Icanthinkformyself]

38. It is inhumane

to subject others to a deadly virus
It's inhumane to refuse to save others by saving yourself.
It's inhumane and selfish to be anti-vax.
I'm not gleeful, I'm pissed at them for exposing so many innocent people to a deadly virus, often knowingly.
PS, we lost our son, an EMS first responder, to the virus in June 2020. So, glee, No. No glee. But, I cannot feel compassion or empathy with them, including an anti-vax cousin who is in the process of losing her husband as I type (he may have passed) and is sick herself. His grandchildren will not know their grandfather, my cousin, if she's lucky, will live without her closest friend and love of her life. All because they knew better than the professionals.

[femmedem]

40. Thank you, Sympthsical.

I feel the same way but you put it more eloquently than I ever have.

Sometimes I imagine what this site looks like to visitors and potential new members when they see so many posts celebrating the deaths of people who fell prey to misinformation.

[Moebym]

47. Many of these people intended to do harm to others

There were people who tested positive and lied about it to others in order to attend gatherings even when they knew an immunocompromised person would be in attendance.

There were people who coughed on cancer patients, hoping to infect them.

There were people who assaulted store employees, flight attendants, and other workers who were simply trying to enforce the rules in order to protect themselves and their customers.

There were those who promulgated misinformation themselves through social media, spreading myths about and pushing horse paste, bleach, hydroxychloroquine, etc.

At the very least, I do not feel any degree of sympathy for people who spread COVID-19 disinformation and later died of the disease themselves.

[Sympthsical]

49. That's what gets me

I'm not a hyper-partisan person. I'm a liberal Democrat because that's where my ideology and policy desires align. But I don't submerge into echo chambers or only hear or see things that I want or dismiss facts or reality because I need narratives to be true. Sometimes, what I want to be correct just isn't. And that's ok. Changing one's mind based on evidence should always be ok.

So given my attitude, it's like, I just want to ask, "Do people know what this place is starting to look like to outsiders?" I suppose the Meat Loaf thing was enough to snap me out. Everywhere I look, friends and people on social media remembering the man's music, the good memories, positive experiences. Lots of liberals and Democrats.

Then pop in here, and it's like "Shiiiiiiiiit Booooooooomb!!!!!!" Did I misclick into 4chan? No one has to like him or his music or his politics. But the gleeful pile on. The hell?

I think the pandemic and lack of offline socialization is just getting into social media segments in terrible ways. There's no real social correction for bad behavior, no having to staying in the room after you drop a steaming verbal pile in front of other people. No feedback that we usually use to gauge what is and is not ok.

So it devolves into a free-for-all. And hate, reinforced with hate, just ends up with a chaotic hate fest.

It's just not a good look to celebrate death. If it's Trump, eh, fine. I get it. But we're getting average people, people down the street, co-workers, family.

Whenever I see headlines like, "Covid is leading to a mental health crisis," I think to myself, "No. Shit."

[Orrex]

51. I have known people who've died from covid after contracting it from belligerent antivax no-maskers

And I have known belligerent antivax no-maskers who've died after taking no steps to protect themselves or others.

I try not to celebrate the suffering of those to suffer due to their own poor choices, but when their poor choice cause others to suffer needlessly, I find my compassion strained.

Perhaps that's a moral failing, but I maintain that the victim of an attack has no obligation to empathize with their attacker while the attack is ongoing; the ongoing attack is covid, and those who exacerbate it through their selfish ignorance are the attacker.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

55. Remind me again just how many gay people refused to

take a safe and effective vaccine for HIV? Oh, wait. There is still no vaccine for it. Although there are good treatments.

It was clear very early on in that pandemic that it was very specific behavior that spread the disease person to person. Also blood transfusions. Or having the misfortune to be born to a woman with it. Just standing next to someone with AIDS simply wasn't going to infect the other person. But when someone purposefully does not get the Covid vaccine, and goes places and is close to other people when they know they have Covid, that's different. They are actively spreading it.

Huge, huge difference.

[Sympthsical]

58. How many refused to wear condoms?

When they knew they had a high chance of protecting them?

A lot. It was a lot.

When I was just starting to date and hook up with men (early 00's), there were plennnnty who said, "Don't worry, we don't need a condom. I'm clean." Yeaaahhhh. If they're saying that to me, how many other people have they said that to? (Interesting addendum, people calling themselves "clean" came in for a lot of shit in the community eventually).

I still have friends who tell me about their risky behavior. Whenever it comes up, I always say, "Please tell me you're on Truvada." And that doesn't block the other stuff. I have two friends who were on Truvada, went nuts because they figured woo, safe! and ended up with herpes.

Which is yet another thing someone can pass along before they realize they have it.

[Moebym]

64. Apparently we are horrible people

For not having much sympathy for people who have deliberately or at least carelessly caused harm to others out of selfishness and spite.

Some may be able to forgive them, but I can't.

[trickyguy]

60. As a gay man myself, I watched a lot of friends die from AIDS. Not pretty.

But the Covid crises is different only in that it's not as severe to your body.
And yes, I've looked at plenty of people hooked up to ventilators with Covid.
But ultimately, death is death, and I don't wish that on anyone.

[DownriverDem]

61. Not celebrating

but I see the anti vaxxers as propagandized and ignorant. Thinking they are owning the Libs is insane.

[RandySF]

62. One key difference.

Many people died needle-sly from AIDS because of the willful inaction of the Reagan administration. People are dying needlessly from COVID because of willful ignorance.

[Sympthsical]

74. That is not the entire story

And I think you know that. It's revision to think it all came down to Reagan. It started with him and became as catastrophic as quickly as it did because of him. No question at all.

But a point was reached when knowledge and means were widely available, and the epidemic continued. Even without ignorance.

Any gay man who tells you otherwise is putting on a face for straight society. We know what our own community is like.

[Crunchy Frog]

65. How would you have felt if there had been an

effective, safe, and free vaccine available to anyone who wanted it?

What if Freddie Murcury had caught it while attending a Nazi rally, and was a strong and vocal advocate against condom use, and in favor of condomless orgied?

What if people were mostly dying simply because they were refusing the vaccine, and because they were aligned with a violent, authoritarian political movement that was demonizing the vaccine?

What if some vulnerable gay men were dying because of other people's refusal to get vaccinated, and other people were dying because vaccine refusers were taking up all the medical resources so that they were inaccessible to others?

What if the stigma wasn't about being gay, but about being racist, authoritarian, and encouraging others to recklessly endanger their own and other people's lives?

I know I probably would have felt differently about the situation at the time. Maybe you wouldn't have.

I read the HCA reddit, and don't feel guilty or ashamed about it. People don't qualify for that award unless they have been actively promoting antivax, anti-masking, and/or Covid and science denial. I'm just fine with that.

[Sympthsical]

75. People did die doing irresponsible things

I don't care about ideology when it comes to death.

You do. Ok. I do not think that's a great thing. It's never been a good trait in history. It leads places. If you want to be participant, that's your decision.

And again, I'd simply note that Covid is taking down plenty of people who aren't Trumpists.

Death doesn't self-isolate based on one's ideological wishes.

[paleotn]

66. False equivalence.

and I remember the AIDS crises very well, thank you. Oh...you look a bit silly on your "high" hobby horse by the way.

[Sympthsical]

76. Ground level only looks high

When one is in the midst of digging.

[paleotn]

79. I'm standing on ground level. You?

It's not celebrating. It's acknowledging karma. They're guilty of causing not only their own deaths, but very possibly the deaths of many other innocent people. That's how dangerous, airborne contagions work. So, stop with the moralizing around a false equivalence please.

[Klaralven]

71. Schadenfreude

[Corgigal]

72. No it doesn't.

My brother in law was innocent. All my friends were innocent. Science was trying to save them, but it took so much time, They wish they had a vaccine.

However, thankfully to our gay victims, we got our vaccine in an emergency authorization. They did that.

Don’t talk about Freddie Mercury. We have a yearly celebration about his life, and he has a fund that assist HIV patients , till this day.

COVID victims aren’t innocent anymore, they had a chance to protect themselves and their loved one. If one person sees an anti vaxx site, and it changes their minds. Worth it.

Miss you Bill.

[Sympthsical]

77. "Covid victimes aren't innocent"

I simply want to respond and thank you for stating clearly a thought that often goes unsaid or is elided around to not make what's being said come out as awful as it is.

"People with HIV aren't innocent!"

Yeah, that rhetoric is familiar.

I think I'm good on this thread for a bit. Homework calls, and some of the responses are more damning on their own without my input.

But I do appreciate that stark clarification. It said more than I think you believe it does.

[paleotn]

82. False equivalence.

Don't like it. Don't read it. No one is forcing you. As my mom use to say...MOB (mind own business).

[live love laugh]

104. Thank you. These are very different cases.

The stigma of homosexuality associated with AIDS made some less sympathetic but the pandemic has no stigma (though Republicans tried to stigmatize it racially at first and then age wise).

It took almost a decade to get viable treatment for AIDS.

[crickets]

78. "I won't celebrate death and suffering."

Thank you, Sympthsical. As furious as I am with the anti-vax nonsense and all of the needless suffering it causes all of us, I can't celebrate the deaths. It's an ugly thing to do. We can and should try to be better than that.

[Tomconroy]

88. Blaming all the spread on the unvaxxed probably isn't accurate.

Here in heavily vaxxed CT and NYC Omicron spread as rapidly as in the less vaxxed states. It's just that the unvaxxed are doing most of the dying. Sad.
The White House said the other day 85 percent of adults had gotten at least one shot. I think most of the rest are mistaken, not malevolent.

[Initech]

89. I don't celebrate anyone's death.

But at the same time I don't feel sorry for them when they get caught up in the misinformation sphere and wallow in their own hate and ignorance and it leads to their death. After browsing r/HermanCainAwards, there's a lot of hate being spewed among the winners of that award. So I guess it's a case of what goes around comes around.

[bullwinkle428]

92. I will admit to feeling a sense of schadenfreude over ONE single victim of AIDS.

ROY FUCKING COHN.

This miserable cretin was not only an incredible, off-the-charts homophobe, but in a position that helped shape attitudes that left gay men in a position where their only opportunities to seek out partners occurred in risky and dangerous situations, which clearly played a role in the spread of the disease.

And I lost extended family to this disease. My former wife's cousin, who made a beautiful wedding cake for us, ended up succumbing within a year.

Is it any wonder that this guy ended up being the biggest influence in Chump's life?

[treestar]

93. It's not the same

I can think of thousands of differences.

These are people who are hostile to reason. They are the cruel ones. Not getting vaccinated, they are helping spread the disease. Then karma catches up with them.

There's no vaccine for AIDS. It does not spread easily, through the air. The only possible parallel might be people who won't practice safe sex and then get it.

[mahina]

98. Completely agree

It’s awful when anybody does it. We are so much better than that. It’s very low and cruel and it demeans anyone who does it.

[wackadoo wabbit]

100. "Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, . . ."

I agree with you, Sympthsical. It's regrettable that so many others don't.

[crickets]

111. "Therefore, send not to know for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee."

Beautiful poem by Donne, and a perfect time to remember it.

[live love laugh]

102. God knows how many others they selfishly and avoidably took with them. nt

[mercuryblues]

103. Well then, you sure will hate me

The more anti-vaccers + anti maskers, die they will at least stop spreading Covid, the closer I get to getting my transplant. So, I can live. The transplant unit at my hospital was forced to shut down because Covid.

Fuck them to hell and back. My nerves are raw from wondering if my fucking CANCER will come out of remission and kill me before it does.

You see there is no cure for my cancer. My only hope is remission and a bone marrow transplant to keep it there. A shot could put a stop to this insanity. They refuse to get it. I get Covid because of them, I DIE. That is my reality. I FUCKING DIE.

[mercuryblues]

122. That's a bit to far.

[Iggo]

109. BTW, the H stands for Humble.

[Sympthsical]

110. Well my kittens think I'm pretty awesome

But they also eat bugs, so . . .

I'll take it.

[Doremus]

112. So how many HIV+ patients do you know who use/used their social media to tell everyone

to go have unprotected sex. That nobody can force them to wear condoms and they'll have sex with anybody they want, anytime they want, HIV or no HIV.

There might be a couple of douchebags out there who did/are doing that but if it happens as often as anti-vaxxers do it, I'd have to see some evidence of it.

[Act_of_Reparation]

116. Schadenfreude is a natural human emotion...

...usually springing from one's sense that justice long denied has been dispensed.

Before scolding people, you should take the following into consideration: most of us have spent the past two years doing everything right. We have masked up and locked down. We have missed birthdays, graduations, weddings, vacations, what have you--all for the common good. Of those who lost loved ones, the luckiest of us got to watch them die through a sheet of glass. Some of us had to do it over Zoom. Most of us just got a phone call. Those of us in the business of medicine have watched our colleagues be abused, assaulted, and then burn the fuck out.

Meanwhile, while we're making sacrifices to get things back to normal, a certain group of dipshits are hellbent on making sure nothing we have given up these past two years has made the slightest bit of difference.

So, I dunno. It's pretty easy to understand why people wouldn't be completely sympathetic when one of these selfish pricks dies. How that's in any way similar to religious zealots and homophobes grave dancing on HIV victims because they have very specific ideas about how people should be allowed to love each other is completely and utterly beyond me.

[JI7]

117. Not wanting Trump to die doesn't make someone a good person

[JI7]

118. I think I read a case of someone that knew they were HIV+ and had sex with others

without telling them and they were charged with a crime.

I don't remember the details but I would not feel bad if a person who did this died.

But most of the gay community were working to get help for something people didn't know much about and as they learned more behaviors did change.

Most of the gay community supported campaigns to help end this .

More examples are gun nuts who might shoot themselves by accident.

[JI7]

119. How about when Rush Limbaugh died ?

[LeftInTX]

121. How he died is irrelevant, but I'm glad he's gone!

[Meowmee]

120. People who will not vax with no valid medical exemption, will not wear masks etc. are murderers

Imo. Whether they see it or not. I will not jump for joy at their death if it happens etc. but beyond that I have no sympathy for them. If dump had died from covid I absolutely would have expressed my relief and happiness, with no guilt whatsoever. We need to see the bigger picture here of what has happened and what could happen.

[BlackSkimmer]

123. Kick again.

For a good thread.