CDC says "natural immunity" better than vax?

[Takket]

Okay listening to a show and they are going on about this CDC report that says natural immunity is better. I tried to read some of this and it is over my head lol. And I’m sure there is some caveat to the report they are glossing over.

Has anyone seen or heard about this report???

To be specific on this show they claim the report says natural immunity is ten times better at preventing Covid infection. I don’t know where it says that. Also doesn’t that bean you gave to already HAVE HAD Covid??? Lol

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm?s_cid=mm7104e1_w#contribAff

Edit: I found there source for this assumption. it is this:

https://kdvr.com/news/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine/cdc-report-natural-immunity-stronger-than-vaccines-alone-during-delta-wave/

DENVER (KDVR) — Natural immunity was six times stronger during the delta wave than vaccination, according to a new report from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The report, published Jan. 19, analyzed COVID outcome data from New York and California, which make up about one in six of the nation’s total COVID deaths.

The study has limits — namely, it was done before the omicron wave and doesn’t factor in any information about boosters. It does, however, broadly agree with studies from other countries.
What causes post-COVID ‘brain fog’? New study says virus changes spinal fluid

Vaccines were more effective at preventing infection or serious illness than natural immunity from prior infections before the delta variant became the dominant strain. After delta became the main strain, vaccines alone grew weaker against the virus and natural immunity got much stronger. This could be due in large part to the fact that vaccines began wearing off around the time delta spread, according to the study.

[underpants]

1. What show?

[rockfordfile]

9. I agree

[Takket]

15. a local Detroit podcast I listen to.

The referenced this article (which I just found):

https://kdvr.com/news/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine/cdc-report-natural-immunity-stronger-than-vaccines-alone-during-delta-wave/

DENVER (KDVR) — Natural immunity was six times stronger during the delta wave than vaccination, according to a new report from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The report, published Jan. 19, analyzed COVID outcome data from New York and California, which make up about one in six of the nation’s total COVID deaths.

The study has limits — namely, it was done before the omicron wave and doesn’t factor in any information about boosters. It does, however, broadly agree with studies from other countries.
What causes post-COVID ‘brain fog’? New study says virus changes spinal fluid

Vaccines were more effective at preventing infection or serious illness than natural immunity from prior infections before the delta variant became the dominant strain. After delta became the main strain, vaccines alone grew weaker against the virus and natural immunity got much stronger. This could be due in large part to the fact that vaccines began wearing off around the time delta spread, according to the study.

[underpants]

25. Okay. Thanks. Nt

[Fiendish Thingy]

2. You are misunderstanding the report- it does not say natural immunity is better. Nt

[Effete Snob]

3. Define "better"

If by "natural immunity" you mean systematically allowing spread of the virus, then that certainly produces a greater number of deaths and long covid sufferers.

I don't know why you chose to link to a footnote in the cited report, but it clearly says in the opening summary:

"vaccination remains the safest strategy for averting future SARS-CoV-2 infections, hospitalizations, long-term sequelae, and death"

Scroll up from where you misleadingly linked, and read what the report says.

You are apparently confusing two things:

1. The effectiveness of recent infection at preventing re-infection, and

2. The effectiveness of vaccines at preventing hospitalization and death.

No, "getting the virus" is not "better" than being vaccinated in the first place, in terms of what it is we are generally seeking to avoid.

[JohnSJ]

4. It isn't as simple as that, and anyone who chooses to trying to catch the virus because they think

it provides more protection than vaccination, is a fool. Not only are they gambling with their own life, but they are endangering others.

Importantly, this is an observational study, and it only applied to the Delta variant.

That is why context is important, and the full TEXT needs to be presented. It also doesn't address the long term after effects by some who have recovered from the initial bout of the virus, which includes damage to end organs, lungs, heart, kidneys, and the brain, and that this organ damage may lead to health complications that linger long after the covid illness, which include long-term breathing problems and heart complications. I guess the question is, "Do you feel lucky"

Here is the full context from the OPs link:


"These results demonstrate that vaccination protects against COVID-19 and related hospitalization, and that surviving a previous infection protects against a reinfection and related hospitalization. Importantly, infection-derived protection was higher after the Delta variant became predominant, a time when vaccine-induced immunity for many persons declined because of immune evasion and immunologic waning (2,5,6). Similar cohort data accounting for booster doses needs to be assessed, as new variants, including Omicron, circulate. Although the epidemiology of COVID-19 might change with the emergence of new variants, vaccination remains the safest strategy to prevent SARS-CoV-2 infections and associated complications; all eligible persons should be up to date with COVID-19 vaccination. Additional recommendations for vaccine doses might be warranted in the future as the virus and immunity levels change."

[unblock]

5. No, vaccine is twice as effective

It's confusing, but there are 3 groups:

- The reference group that has neither a vaccination nor a previous infection.

- the vaccinated group, which had a vaccination and no previous infection

- the natural immunity group, which had a previous infection but no vaccination.


The reference group was about 10 times more likely to get a first infected than the natural immunity group was to get a second infection.

The reference group was about 20 times more likely to get infected than the vaccinated group.


So the vaccine is twice as effective as natural immunity, never mind the obvious problem that the only way to get natural immunity is to get a first case of Covid, so it's not a good strategy. That said, if someone did get Covid, this suggests that they're pretty well protected from getting a second case, although they could further cut their risk in half by getting the vaccine.

[Takket]

13. Great summary. Thank you!

[LisaL]

17. Except is not accurate.

That data indicates natural immunity is better than vaccination against delta.

[LisaL]

16. Nope, that's not correct.

The figure shown clearly indicates that previous infection was better than vaccination.

[unblock]

19. Here's the part I was basing my comment on. Did I get it wrong?

During the week beginning May 30, 2021, compared with COVID-19 case rates among unvaccinated persons without a previous COVID-19 diagnosis, COVID-19 case rates were 19.9-fold (California) and 18.4-fold (New York) lower among vaccinated persons without a previous diagnosis; 7.2-fold (California) and 9.9-fold lower (New York) among unvaccinated persons with a previous COVID-19 diagnosis; and 9.6-fold (California) and 8.5-fold lower (New York) among vaccinated persons with a previous COVID-19 diagnosis

[LisaL]

20. That was before delta.

With delta, natural immunity was the best.

[unblock]

23. Thanks, you're right, I didn't get to the plot twist further down.

Difficult thing to draw conclusions from. Maybe vaccine protection is more temporary, but then we don't know the timing of the previous infections. It could be that the previous infections were simply more recent than the vaccinations.

Or maybe there's something about delta in particular.

As they always say, more study is needed...

[roamer65]

6. If you are vaxxed and fully boosted, Omicron is like an attenuated live virus 4th dose.

At least one positive of it is that Omicron antibodies knock out Delta as well. They are “backward compatible”.

[LisaL]

21. Except you still run a risk of complications, hospitalization or even death.

10% risk is still a risk. And of course you can spread it around. Some people think that it's a good idea to go out and get infected with omicron.
Thanks but no thanks.

[roamer65]

22. That is correct.

Not a good idea to become intentionally infected, but if you are by chance infected after being boosted it’s way better scenario than being an unvaxxed covidiot with a Omicron infection.

[Tree Lady]

7. I heard some doctor on CNN

Said that natural immunity was equal to one dose of vaccine and getting fully vaxed was better.

She was a epidemiologist.

[FBaggins]

8. Yes and no

For a limited (but substantial) set of datapoints during Delta, natural immunity was somewhat more effective at preventing hospitalizations when compared to vaccination. But that doesn't mean that it's "better" because the side effects of vaccination are presumably not as serious as those of catching COVID.

And from what little I read, vaccination AND natural immunity were even more effective. So there was still little reason to reject the vaccine just because you had previously been infected.

There is, however, some reason to question whether public policy should continue to be driven that way.

[ecstatic]

10. Here's the article I read about it:

The catch is that the info might be obsolete because it was captured before the booster dose was widely done.

New data released Wednesday showed that both vaccination and prior infection offered strong protection against infection and hospitalization from Covid-19 during the Delta wave — and that case and hospitalization rates were actually lower among people who had recovered from Covid-19 than among those who had been vaccinated.

The data, released by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and health agencies in California and New York, are sure to inflame arguments from those who insist they don’t need to be vaccinated if they can show they’ve recovered from Covid-19. But the data contain many caveats that health officials stressed pointed to the value of vaccination, even on top of prior infection.

For one, the new report was based on data only through November, before the U.S. booster campaign really took off. It also looked at data during the Delta wave and does not account for the surging Omicron variant.
...
Studies have shown that while prior infection seems to generally protect otherwise healthy people from severe disease in the face of Omicron, it does not offer much of a shield against infection. For vaccinated people, boosters restore some of the protection that’s been lost in the face of Omicron, but studies have also shown that some of the most powerful protection is generated when people who’ve had Covid are also vaccinated.

https://www.statnews.com/2022/01/19/those-who-recovered-from-covid-19-were-less-likely-than-vaccinated-to-get-infected-during-delta-wave/

[andym]

11. Against the later peak of delta infections, natural immunity appeared as good or better

Last edited Mon Jan 24, 2022, 03:51 PM - Edit history (1)

than vaccination alone according to the report, which diverges from an earlier August CDC report. At that point (the latest data point is Nov. 2021) immunity was waning for people who had received vaccines in the Spring, People who immunity from infection should be analyzed for how much time passed since the infection. Depending upon how the omicron data look, this may end up altering CDC recommendations to include natural immunity among those who are considered to have some protection from Covid-19..

[Quixote1818]

14. That is IF you survive and don't have long term effects. nt

[LisaL]

18. True, but up until now we were told that

vaccination was better than natural immunity. These data no longer support that (against delta). It also suggests that there is really no longer a reason to be vaxxed for those who were previously infected. At least against delta. We still have to see what happens with Omicron.
It seems to escape both natural immunity and vaccine induced immunity.

[Quixote1818]

24. They have a new vaccine coming out in March for Omicron specifically.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/10/covid-vaccine-pfizer-ceo-says-omicron-vaccine-will-be-ready-in-march.html

I guarantee you I will be taking it for the same reason I get the flu vaccine. Not because I am worried about serious illness but because I hate getting sick for a week. LOL

[kcr]

26. It doesn't matter

because vaccines don't land you in the hospital on a ventilator. It does not suggest that there's no reason to be vaxxed if you were previously infected, because again. Vaccines don't land you in the hospital on a ventilator.

[LisaL]

27. WTF is the point of un-necessary medical procedures even if they don't land you in the hospital?

Or on ventilator?
There was no additional benefit (against delta) of being vaccinated on top of previous infection.

[Drb2072]

28. This report doesn't say that

The report provides a summary of data of hospitalization and infection from covid, pre and post vaccination, and also looks at those infections and hospitalizations where a previous infection of Covid was known, both pre and post vaccination.

It is important to read the actual discussionconclusion of the report, not the news biased conclusion. The report itself identifies at least 7 limitations of the data:
"First, analyses were not stratified by time since vaccine receipt, but only by time since previous diagnosis, although earlier studies have examined waning of vaccine-induced immunity,
Second, persons with undiagnosed infection are misclassified as having no previous COVID-19 diagnosis; however, this misclassification likely results in a conservative bias (i.e., the magnitude of difference in rates would be even larger if misclassified persons were not included among unvaccinated persons without a previous COVID-19 diagnosis).
Third, potential exists for bias related to unmeasured confounding (e.g., behavioral or geographic differences in exposure risk) and uncertainty in the population size of the unvaccinated group without a previous COVID-19 diagnosis. Persons might be more or less likely to receive testing based on previous diagnosis or vaccination status; however, different trajectories between vaccinated persons with and without a previous COVID-19 diagnosis, and similar findings for cases and hospitalizations, suggest that these biases were minimal.
Fourth, this analysis did not include information on the severity of initial infection and does not account for the full range of morbidity and mortality represented by the groups with previous infections.
Fifth, this analysis did not ascertain receipt of additional or booster COVID-19 vaccine doses and was conducted before many persons were eligible or had received additional or booster vaccine doses, which have been shown to confer additional protection.
Sixth, some estimates lacked precision because of sample size limitations.
Finally, this analysis was conducted before the emergence of the Omicron variant, for which vaccine or infection-derived immunity might be diminished."

Of major impact in my opinion are:
1. all types and number of doses are simply classified as "Vaccinated" (i.e. single dose and J&J)
2. those counted as vaccinated are pre-delta vaccinated - i.e. the oldest in age and populations with high riskcomorbities OVERSAMPLED
3. those counted as previously infected SURVIVED Covid. - i.e. population where those with highest risk and oldest in age were CULLED

[AntivaxHunters]

29. The problem with this

is that you MUST be infected to begin with.
Many have been. And because of it, there's millions of people who will face likely life long symptoms and after effects of getting Covid, not to mention the nearly 1 million people who have died in this country from Covid.