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Sympthsical

(9,072 posts)
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 04:48 PM Jan 2022

That mass grave of Indigenous children in Canada may not exist

It was a major story last year, and I think we were all pretty horrified and outraged about it. We know the history of what governments have done to Native populations and the treatment and conditions on reservations.

However, this is interesting. A history professor from the University of Montreal dug deep to research what happened. He came to some conclusions. It's a long article with over two dozen footnotes at the end.

But still, interesting reading. Even without the initial story, it relates a lot of information about how things operated in the early 20th Century.

https://www.dorchesterreview.ca/blogs/news/in-kamloops-not-one-body-has-been-found

65 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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That mass grave of Indigenous children in Canada may not exist (Original Post) Sympthsical Jan 2022 OP
This anti-First Nation hate publication shouldn't be on DU. Cobalt Violet Jan 2022 #1
I thought there was something to it at first ColinC Jan 2022 #4
Really the more profound aspect is that the entire horrid system was going on for like 100 years Hugh_Lebowski Jan 2022 #15
Not necessarily mass murder. ColinC Jan 2022 #34
More than 150,000 captives, errrrrr, students. niyad Jan 2022 #65
Where have you read that bodies have been exhumed? questionseverything Jan 2022 #30
The nyt article cited states "children as young as 3" ColinC Jan 2022 #35
Nothing has been exhumed questionseverything Jan 2022 #38
And besides the absence of evidence for perhaps one or two gravesites ColinC Jan 2022 #39
You keep moving the goal posts questionseverything Jan 2022 #41
Actually the goalpost is whether or not there is any reason to doubt the technology ColinC Jan 2022 #43
Also interesting for the grave of 751 ColinC Jan 2022 #40
You are mixing up the sites questionseverything Jan 2022 #42
The fact behind the article and the underlying implications of the article are two different things. ColinC Jan 2022 #44
This message was self-deleted by its author questionseverything Jan 2022 #46
The "thousands" I refer to are well documented deaths and disappearances over 100 years. ColinC Jan 2022 #47
Here is a list of the docoumented children who have died in residential schools. ColinC Jan 2022 #49
There were 130 different schools, the article in the op discusses two of those schools questionseverything Jan 2022 #53
"no doubt going to be atrocities?" ColinC Jan 2022 #54
This message was self-deleted by its author ColinC Jan 2022 #50
This publication is blatantly pro-colonialism and anti-Indigenous all over the world Withywindle Jan 2022 #58
This message was self-deleted by its author ColinC Jan 2022 #2
Thanks Sympthsical for providing a link to this article GemState Jan 2022 #3
What the fuck is this shit right here. Besides one long concern quote, I mean. WhiskeyGrinder Jan 2022 #5
I guess right wing talking points are okay on Du these days... Cobalt Violet Jan 2022 #11
The article makes no mention of the largest unmarked graves that have been found ColinC Jan 2022 #6
Oh, there definitely are graves Sympthsical Jan 2022 #8
You never heard any follow up? Torchlight Jan 2022 #18
Thing is the sources it cites debunk its own thesis ColinC Jan 2022 #37
Weekend before last, I spent hours watching Indigenous documentaries about the niyad Jan 2022 #63
Apart from that possible error of omission, Disaffected Jan 2022 #14
It's not like we don't have to reach far to find other atrocities Sympthsical Jan 2022 #21
The article posted is highly misleading and implies atrocities ColinC Jan 2022 #32
It doesn't outright state that children were not taken from their homes and forced ColinC Jan 2022 #31
The last five paragraphs are about that graveyard questionseverything Jan 2022 #29
While repeatedly implying that no atrocities really ever happened ColinC Jan 2022 #33
Read "Seven Fallen Feathers" by Tanya Talaga milestogo Jan 2022 #7
I'll do that Sympthsical Jan 2022 #22
It was on Amnesty International's book of the month a couple of years ago. milestogo Jan 2022 #28
Did you see Palin has Covid? obamanut2012 Jan 2022 #9
It hasn't taken up any part of my day Sympthsical Jan 2022 #10
This is and extreme right-wing rag.... Cobalt Violet Jan 2022 #12
Bet you loved the "Stop Appeasing the Woke Jihadis" article on this site too. Cobalt Violet Jan 2022 #13
I actually read through that piece (of sh**) ..... marmar Jan 2022 #17
Another story on this blog states that gun control is bad...because it's racist! bullwinkle428 Jan 2022 #48
Right wing garbage n/t kcr Jan 2022 #16
Looks like a conservative rag, from Wikipedia: Kingofalldems Jan 2022 #19
Yes, the only Canadian media publishing this are right wing outlets... Spazito Jan 2022 #20
The Federalist published as well tenderfoot Jan 2022 #23
Exactly! Spazito Jan 2022 #24
The Daily Wire as well tenderfoot Jan 2022 #25
Yes, I haven't found a credible mainstream media outlet... Spazito Jan 2022 #27
Well isn't that interesting. Kingofalldems Jan 2022 #26
Next up: The Jews Killed Anne Frank. Iggo Jan 2022 #36
This message was self-deleted by its author questionseverything Jan 2022 #45
Yes, please do be sure to keep up with the right wing media kcr Jan 2022 #51
In case you need to see it, here is a list of names of the thousands of children who never ColinC Jan 2022 #52
I don't trust this source AT ALL Withywindle Jan 2022 #55
Oh for fuck's sake. Don't drag your garbage all over DU. MrsCoffee Jan 2022 #56
Poster loved to stick up for Kyle Rittenhouse during the trial at all possible opportunities. Tommy Carcetti Jan 2022 #59
Yikes. MrsCoffee Jan 2022 #60
Isn't this also the same honest soul... jcgoldie Jan 2022 #61
because you're so interested. Cobalt Violet Jan 2022 #57
Which one? ismnotwasm Jan 2022 #62
So this publication's mission statement says, in part, that its aim is to niyad Jan 2022 #64

ColinC

(8,289 posts)
4. I thought there was something to it at first
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 06:05 PM
Jan 2022

but even if certain graves did not exist, that does not negate the thousands of bodies already found in others.

 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
15. Really the more profound aspect is that the entire horrid system was going on for like 100 years
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 07:16 PM
Jan 2022

I mean these body counts are not THAT out of line considering 1000's of 'students' and 100 years of time ... however that many bodies suggests that the food and medical care were god-awful even by the standards of that era.

It's very disturbing overall of course, but isn't necessarily suggestive of some mass-murder type of scenario.

ColinC

(8,289 posts)
34. Not necessarily mass murder.
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 10:00 PM
Jan 2022

Mass negligence and inhumane living conditions resulting in death seems like a fine line, though.

ColinC

(8,289 posts)
35. The nyt article cited states "children as young as 3"
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 10:02 PM
Jan 2022

were found in the unmarked graves/burial sites of 215 children. I imagine that would be difficult to determine without exhuming them.

questionseverything

(9,651 posts)
38. Nothing has been exhumed
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 10:10 PM
Jan 2022

Ground penetrating radar found depressions and abnormalities in an apple orchard that “could “ be bodies

ColinC

(8,289 posts)
39. And besides the absence of evidence for perhaps one or two gravesites
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 10:14 PM
Jan 2022

Is there anybody who has worked on these sites who has given reason to believe there are no bodies?

questionseverything

(9,651 posts)
41. You keep moving the goal posts
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 10:31 PM
Jan 2022

You said, “thousands of children found”
That’s just not true

No one working on the site has any proof , no excavating has been done

ColinC

(8,289 posts)
43. Actually the goalpost is whether or not there is any reason to doubt the technology
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 10:39 PM
Jan 2022

and the experts who work the technology. If there was, this story would stretch much further than an extremist right wing source.

Also, there is no doubt that thousands of children have died as that was already reported by the schools. Not one person who has worked on these sites in any official capacity has any doubt these are among those children reported dead by the schools.

ColinC

(8,289 posts)
40. Also interesting for the grave of 751
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 10:22 PM
Jan 2022

So far documents aiding the search effort include a burial plot map post-1960, a cemetery survey dated 1887 to 1952, and local death records spanning 40 years after 1952 – but a lot of information is missing.


There is a lot more to believe that these are bodies than "depressions and abnormalities." Many of these places were planned burial sites or nearby to some.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/this-is-what-it-will-take-to-identify-hundreds-of-remains-in-unmarked-graves-at-residential-schools-1.5484190

questionseverything

(9,651 posts)
42. You are mixing up the sites
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 10:38 PM
Jan 2022

The 751 graves are neatly laid out, an obvious graveyard

What this article suggests is different from what people seem to be assuming is , the locals say entire families both Indian and white are buried there

The site in the orchard is less clear cut but at this time there isn’t any proof even one body is buried there

ColinC

(8,289 posts)
44. The fact behind the article and the underlying implications of the article are two different things.
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 10:44 PM
Jan 2022

The article strongly suggests (although does not outright say) that there were not thousands of children reported dead and thousands of others who did not come home. The systematic malnourishment in the schools and essentially forcing children in conditions that killed them is also well documented. What isn't documented, still, is where the children who were missing and reported dead, are.

Regardless of proof, there is very strong evidence this is where the reported dead and missing may be.

I will concede, there is not proof (as in actual bodies dug up) this is where many of the lost and reported dead family members of these tribes are, but there certainly is strong reason to believe they are.

Response to ColinC (Reply #44)

ColinC

(8,289 posts)
47. The "thousands" I refer to are well documented deaths and disappearances over 100 years.
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 11:16 PM
Jan 2022

Last edited Tue Jan 25, 2022, 12:08 AM - Edit history (1)

The deaths were mostly reported by the schools themselves. Of which, many of the bodies have not yet been found and were rarely returned to families.

"Survivors talked about children who suddenly went missing. Some talked about children who went missing into mass burial sites," said former TRC chair Murray Sinclair in a statement in May.

Other survivors spoke of infants fathered by priests at the school, taken from their mothers at birth and thrown into furnaces, he said.

The TRC identified 3,200 confirmed deaths, though it noted that the work of identification and commemoration was "far from complete". Mr Murray estimated some 6,000 children may have died.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57325653

https://nctr.ca/residential-schools/british-columbia/kamloops-st-louis/

Thousands of children died at these schools from -among other things, often malnourishment and disease. Their death rates were double or triple that of other schools, and the deaths are very well documented and undisputed. What is disputed however, is where exactly all of the bodies of the people who died, are.

questionseverything

(9,651 posts)
53. There were 130 different schools, the article in the op discusses two of those schools
Tue Jan 25, 2022, 12:08 AM
Jan 2022

130 schools over a hundred year period there is no doubt going to be atrocities

What the op discusses is the numbers at those two sites have yet to be determined

ColinC

(8,289 posts)
54. "no doubt going to be atrocities?"
Tue Jan 25, 2022, 12:11 AM
Jan 2022


The deaths at the residential schools were reportedly 3-5 times that of regular public schools, and likely far worse than that. They were put in horrifyingly inhumane conditions not least of which has been fully understood even now.

Response to ColinC (Reply #44)

Withywindle

(9,988 posts)
58. This publication is blatantly pro-colonialism and anti-Indigenous all over the world
Tue Jan 25, 2022, 06:56 PM
Jan 2022

There's apologism for brutal conquerors all over the place on that web site. It's a goddamn mess.

Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

Sympthsical

(9,072 posts)
8. Oh, there definitely are graves
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 06:39 PM
Jan 2022

I'm just finding it interesting, because this one was such a big story, but then you never really heard any follow up.

Plus it goes into all these details about how the government operated and behaved towards Natives in some places.

I'm getting the, "Doesn't fit preferred narrative," push back on it. Which is fine. Usual. It's a sourced research article, not a witch. No one has to read it.

But banned book types are everywhere. So, meh. A history professor did some research. People can read or not.

ColinC

(8,289 posts)
37. Thing is the sources it cites debunk its own thesis
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 10:10 PM
Jan 2022

It's sources also debunk its implication that the atrocities from the entire system were either profoundly overstated or didnt happen at all.

niyad

(113,259 posts)
63. Weekend before last, I spent hours watching Indigenous documentaries about the
Wed Jan 26, 2022, 02:32 AM
Jan 2022

government-mandated residential school systems. Perhaps you might do the same.

Disaffected

(4,554 posts)
14. Apart from that possible error of omission,
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 07:11 PM
Jan 2022

I would be interested to learn just what factual errors the report contains.

Personally, I hope at least a lot of it is in fact true as that might mean fewer native children suffered death and disappearance than is now believed (which would be a good thing, right?).

Sympthsical

(9,072 posts)
21. It's not like we don't have to reach far to find other atrocities
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 07:50 PM
Jan 2022

Pretty much pick a state or territory. You'll find some horror visited on indigenous peoples.

And the Church does have its history. When this story first broke, the Magdalene Laundries came to mind.

ColinC

(8,289 posts)
32. The article posted is highly misleading and implies atrocities
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 09:56 PM
Jan 2022

Either didn't take place or have been profoundly overstated. Neither implication has much to stand on as the facts behind these schools and the disappearance of the children seem to be very well documented.

ColinC

(8,289 posts)
31. It doesn't outright state that children were not taken from their homes and forced
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 09:54 PM
Jan 2022

In thes schools, and hadn't returned home. But it strongly implies that didn't happen.

ColinC

(8,289 posts)
33. While repeatedly implying that no atrocities really ever happened
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 09:57 PM
Jan 2022

The article is highly misleading at best, and a shameless revisionist propaganda piece at worst.

milestogo

(16,829 posts)
7. Read "Seven Fallen Feathers" by Tanya Talaga
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 06:18 PM
Jan 2022

Seven Fallen Feathers tells the stories of seven First Nations students who were attending high school in the city far away from their homes and families.

In this book, award-winning investigative journalist Tanya Talaga looks at each of their lives and their situations while they were living in Thunder Bay, as well as the circumstances of their disappearances and deaths.

Talaga collects stories from their families and communities, as well as details from police and coroner reports, in order to try and understand not only what happened to these youth, but also how Canadian society had failed each of them.

Using a sweeping narrative focusing on the lives of the students, Talaga delves into the history of this small northern city that is representative of the long history of human rights violations against Indigenous peoples across Canada.

https://www.amnestybookclub.ca/BookClub/Books/2018/Seven_Fallen_Feathers.aspx

Sympthsical

(9,072 posts)
22. I'll do that
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 08:01 PM
Jan 2022

Thanks. Actually studying Sherman Alexie at the moment, so I'll look into this as a companion.

milestogo

(16,829 posts)
28. It was on Amnesty International's book of the month a couple of years ago.
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 09:17 PM
Jan 2022

It was a subject I knew nothing about, and really sad. But all true stories.

marmar

(77,073 posts)
17. I actually read through that piece (of sh**) .....
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 07:22 PM
Jan 2022

..... it ought to be retitled "They Will Never Replace Us!"

Spazito

(50,290 posts)
20. Yes, the only Canadian media publishing this are right wing outlets...
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 07:44 PM
Jan 2022

no surprise but still disgusting.

Spazito

(50,290 posts)
27. Yes, I haven't found a credible mainstream media outlet...
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 08:40 PM
Jan 2022

publishing this disgusting piece of crap.

The right wing eats this up, racism is ripe in the Canadian right just as it is with the right in the US.

Response to Sympthsical (Original post)

kcr

(15,315 posts)
51. Yes, please do be sure to keep up with the right wing media
Mon Jan 24, 2022, 11:48 PM
Jan 2022

And get back to us. We, the incurious, can't wait for your report.

Withywindle

(9,988 posts)
55. I don't trust this source AT ALL
Tue Jan 25, 2022, 06:29 AM
Jan 2022

If you look at their other articles, you can see it's full of right wing garbage, whitewashing, trad-Cath ideology, covid denialism, and Cecil Rhodes apologism (!!). Just because the people writing for it have a lot of degrees and know how to look reasonable doesn't mean they aren't pushing a racist agenda.

MrsCoffee

(5,801 posts)
56. Oh for fuck's sake. Don't drag your garbage all over DU.
Tue Jan 25, 2022, 07:03 AM
Jan 2022

Nothing shows less class and respect for the community than posting conservative trash and trying to persuade people it has merit.

Learn to read the room.

Tommy Carcetti

(43,173 posts)
59. Poster loved to stick up for Kyle Rittenhouse during the trial at all possible opportunities.
Tue Jan 25, 2022, 06:59 PM
Jan 2022

Some people just like to stir the shit.

jcgoldie

(11,631 posts)
61. Isn't this also the same honest soul...
Wed Jan 26, 2022, 01:21 AM
Jan 2022

Whose intellectual curiosity is perpetually peaked by theories postulating the origin of covid in a Chinese lab, or am I conflating two separate earnest inquisators?

niyad

(113,259 posts)
64. So this publication's mission statement says, in part, that its aim is to
Wed Jan 26, 2022, 02:41 AM
Jan 2022

counter the political correctness in academia, media, etc. Including such topics as "were the indian residential schools really a disaster, etc. Can pretty much guess their slant.

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