That mass grave of Indigenous children in Canada may not exist

[Sympthsical]

It was a major story last year, and I think we were all pretty horrified and outraged about it. We know the history of what governments have done to Native populations and the treatment and conditions on reservations.

However, this is interesting. A history professor from the University of Montreal dug deep to research what happened. He came to some conclusions. It's a long article with over two dozen footnotes at the end.

But still, interesting reading. Even without the initial story, it relates a lot of information about how things operated in the early 20th Century.

https://www.dorchesterreview.ca/blogs/news/in-kamloops-not-one-body-has-been-found

[Cobalt Violet]

1. This anti-First Nation hate publication shouldn't be on DU.

[ColinC]

4. I thought there was something to it at first

but even if certain graves did not exist, that does not negate the thousands of bodies already found in others.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

15. Really the more profound aspect is that the entire horrid system was going on for like 100 years

I mean these body counts are not THAT out of line considering 1000's of 'students' and 100 years of time ... however that many bodies suggests that the food and medical care were god-awful even by the standards of that era.

It's very disturbing overall of course, but isn't necessarily suggestive of some mass-murder type of scenario.

[ColinC]

34. Not necessarily mass murder.

Mass negligence and inhumane living conditions resulting in death seems like a fine line, though.

[niyad]

65. More than 150,000 captives, errrrrr, students.

[questionseverything]

30. Where have you read that bodies have been exhumed?

N/t

[ColinC]

35. The nyt article cited states "children as young as 3"

were found in the unmarked graves/burial sites of 215 children. I imagine that would be difficult to determine without exhuming them.

[questionseverything]

38. Nothing has been exhumed

Ground penetrating radar found depressions and abnormalities in an apple orchard that “could “ be bodies

[ColinC]

39. And besides the absence of evidence for perhaps one or two gravesites

Is there anybody who has worked on these sites who has given reason to believe there are no bodies?

[questionseverything]

41. You keep moving the goal posts

You said, “thousands of children found”
That’s just not true

No one working on the site has any proof , no excavating has been done

[ColinC]

43. Actually the goalpost is whether or not there is any reason to doubt the technology

and the experts who work the technology. If there was, this story would stretch much further than an extremist right wing source.

Also, there is no doubt that thousands of children have died as that was already reported by the schools. Not one person who has worked on these sites in any official capacity has any doubt these are among those children reported dead by the schools.

[ColinC]

40. Also interesting for the grave of 751

So far documents aiding the search effort include a burial plot map post-1960, a cemetery survey dated 1887 to 1952, and local death records spanning 40 years after 1952 – but a lot of information is missing.

There is a lot more to believe that these are bodies than "depressions and abnormalities." Many of these places were planned burial sites or nearby to some.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/this-is-what-it-will-take-to-identify-hundreds-of-remains-in-unmarked-graves-at-residential-schools-1.5484190

[questionseverything]

42. You are mixing up the sites

The 751 graves are neatly laid out, an obvious graveyard

What this article suggests is different from what people seem to be assuming is , the locals say entire families both Indian and white are buried there

The site in the orchard is less clear cut but at this time there isn’t any proof even one body is buried there

[ColinC]

44. The fact behind the article and the underlying implications of the article are two different things.

The article strongly suggests (although does not outright say) that there were not thousands of children reported dead and thousands of others who did not come home. The systematic malnourishment in the schools and essentially forcing children in conditions that killed them is also well documented. What isn't documented, still, is where the children who were missing and reported dead, are.

Regardless of proof, there is very strong evidence this is where the reported dead and missing may be.

I will concede, there is not proof (as in actual bodies dug up) this is where many of the lost and reported dead family members of these tribes are, but there certainly is strong reason to believe they are.

[ColinC]

47. The "thousands" I refer to are well documented deaths and disappearances over 100 years.

Last edited Tue Jan 25, 2022, 12:08 AM - Edit history (1)

The deaths were mostly reported by the schools themselves. Of which, many of the bodies have not yet been found and were rarely returned to families.

"Survivors talked about children who suddenly went missing. Some talked about children who went missing into mass burial sites," said former TRC chair Murray Sinclair in a statement in May.

Other survivors spoke of infants fathered by priests at the school, taken from their mothers at birth and thrown into furnaces, he said.

The TRC identified 3,200 confirmed deaths, though it noted that the work of identification and commemoration was "far from complete". Mr Murray estimated some 6,000 children may have died.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57325653

https://nctr.ca/residential-schools/british-columbia/kamloops-st-louis/

Thousands of children died at these schools from -among other things, often malnourishment and disease. Their death rates were double or triple that of other schools, and the deaths are very well documented and undisputed. What is disputed however, is where exactly all of the bodies of the people who died, are.

[ColinC]

49. Here is a list of the docoumented children who have died in residential schools.

Is more information is being obtained from the TRC, this list grows.

https://nctr.ca/memorial/national-student-memorial/memorial-register/

[questionseverything]

53. There were 130 different schools, the article in the op discusses two of those schools

130 schools over a hundred year period there is no doubt going to be atrocities

What the op discusses is the numbers at those two sites have yet to be determined

[ColinC]

54. "no doubt going to be atrocities?"

The deaths at the residential schools were reportedly 3-5 times that of regular public schools, and likely far worse than that. They were put in horrifyingly inhumane conditions not least of which has been fully understood even now.

[Withywindle]

58. This publication is blatantly pro-colonialism and anti-Indigenous all over the world

There's apologism for brutal conquerors all over the place on that web site. It's a goddamn mess.

[GemState]

3. Thanks Sympthsical for providing a link to this article

NT

[WhiskeyGrinder]

5. What the fuck is this shit right here. Besides one long concern quote, I mean.

[Cobalt Violet]

11. I guess right wing talking points are okay on Du these days...

Especially if it's anti-Indigenous.

[ColinC]

6. The article makes no mention of the largest unmarked graves that have been found

Including the 751 in June

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/cowessess-marieval-indian-residential-school-news-1.6078375

[Sympthsical]

8. Oh, there definitely are graves

I'm just finding it interesting, because this one was such a big story, but then you never really heard any follow up.

Plus it goes into all these details about how the government operated and behaved towards Natives in some places.

I'm getting the, "Doesn't fit preferred narrative," push back on it. Which is fine. Usual. It's a sourced research article, not a witch. No one has to read it.

But banned book types are everywhere. So, meh. A history professor did some research. People can read or not.

[Torchlight]

18. You never heard any follow up?

Odd that. It was there. As you wrote, "People can read or not..."

[ColinC]

37. Thing is the sources it cites debunk its own thesis

It's sources also debunk its implication that the atrocities from the entire system were either profoundly overstated or didnt happen at all.

[niyad]

63. Weekend before last, I spent hours watching Indigenous documentaries about the

government-mandated residential school systems. Perhaps you might do the same.

[Disaffected]

14. Apart from that possible error of omission,

I would be interested to learn just what factual errors the report contains.

Personally, I hope at least a lot of it is in fact true as that might mean fewer native children suffered death and disappearance than is now believed (which would be a good thing, right?).

[Sympthsical]

21. It's not like we don't have to reach far to find other atrocities

Pretty much pick a state or territory. You'll find some horror visited on indigenous peoples.

And the Church does have its history. When this story first broke, the Magdalene Laundries came to mind.

[ColinC]

32. The article posted is highly misleading and implies atrocities

Either didn't take place or have been profoundly overstated. Neither implication has much to stand on as the facts behind these schools and the disappearance of the children seem to be very well documented.

[ColinC]

31. It doesn't outright state that children were not taken from their homes and forced

In thes schools, and hadn't returned home. But it strongly implies that didn't happen.

[questionseverything]

29. The last five paragraphs are about that graveyard

N/t

[ColinC]

33. While repeatedly implying that no atrocities really ever happened

The article is highly misleading at best, and a shameless revisionist propaganda piece at worst.

[milestogo]

7. Read "Seven Fallen Feathers" by Tanya Talaga

Seven Fallen Feathers tells the stories of seven First Nations students who were attending high school in the city far away from their homes and families.

In this book, award-winning investigative journalist Tanya Talaga looks at each of their lives and their situations while they were living in Thunder Bay, as well as the circumstances of their disappearances and deaths.

Talaga collects stories from their families and communities, as well as details from police and coroner reports, in order to try and understand not only what happened to these youth, but also how Canadian society had failed each of them.

Using a sweeping narrative focusing on the lives of the students, Talaga delves into the history of this small northern city that is representative of the long history of human rights violations against Indigenous peoples across Canada.

https://www.amnestybookclub.ca/BookClub/Books/2018/Seven_Fallen_Feathers.aspx

[Sympthsical]

22. I'll do that

Thanks. Actually studying Sherman Alexie at the moment, so I'll look into this as a companion.

[milestogo]

28. It was on Amnesty International's book of the month a couple of years ago.

It was a subject I knew nothing about, and really sad. But all true stories.

[obamanut2012]

9. Did you see Palin has Covid?

[Sympthsical]

10. It hasn't taken up any part of my day

Much like most people on earth.

[Cobalt Violet]

12. This is and extreme right-wing rag....

[Cobalt Violet]

13. Bet you loved the "Stop Appeasing the Woke Jihadis" article on this site too.

[marmar]

17. I actually read through that piece (of sh**) .....

..... it ought to be retitled "They Will Never Replace Us!"

[bullwinkle428]

48. Another story on this blog states that gun control is bad...because it's racist!

https://www.dorchesterreview.ca/blogs/news/the-failure-of-gun-control-again

[kcr]

16. Right wing garbage n/t

[Kingofalldems]

19. Looks like a conservative rag, from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Conservative_media_in_Canada

[Spazito]

20. Yes, the only Canadian media publishing this are right wing outlets...

no surprise but still disgusting.

[tenderfoot]

23. The Federalist published as well

which only means that it's total bullshit.

[Spazito]

24. Exactly!

[tenderfoot]

25. The Daily Wire as well

eom

[Spazito]

27. Yes, I haven't found a credible mainstream media outlet...

publishing this disgusting piece of crap.

The right wing eats this up, racism is ripe in the Canadian right just as it is with the right in the US.

[Kingofalldems]

26. Well isn't that interesting.

[Iggo]

36. Next up: The Jews Killed Anne Frank.

Oh, wait. That was last week.

My bad.

[kcr]

51. Yes, please do be sure to keep up with the right wing media

And get back to us. We, the incurious, can't wait for your report.

[ColinC]

52. In case you need to see it, here is a list of names of the thousands of children who never

returned home.

https://nctr.ca/memorial/national-student-memorial/memorial-register/

[Withywindle]

55. I don't trust this source AT ALL

If you look at their other articles, you can see it's full of right wing garbage, whitewashing, trad-Cath ideology, covid denialism, and Cecil Rhodes apologism (!!). Just because the people writing for it have a lot of degrees and know how to look reasonable doesn't mean they aren't pushing a racist agenda.

[MrsCoffee]

56. Oh for fuck's sake. Don't drag your garbage all over DU.

Nothing shows less class and respect for the community than posting conservative trash and trying to persuade people it has merit.

Learn to read the room.

[Tommy Carcetti]

59. Poster loved to stick up for Kyle Rittenhouse during the trial at all possible opportunities.

Some people just like to stir the shit.

[MrsCoffee]

60. Yikes.

[jcgoldie]

61. Isn't this also the same honest soul...

Whose intellectual curiosity is perpetually peaked by theories postulating the origin of covid in a Chinese lab, or am I conflating two separate earnest inquisators?

[Cobalt Violet]

57. because you're so interested.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1276008699475822

[ismnotwasm]

62. Which one?

[niyad]

64. So this publication's mission statement says, in part, that its aim is to

counter the political correctness in academia, media, etc. Including such topics as "were the indian residential schools really a disaster, etc. Can pretty much guess their slant.