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gab13by13

(21,438 posts)
Tue Feb 8, 2022, 08:22 AM Feb 2022

Trump broke several laws re: preservation of documents

I listened to Barbara McQuade say, criminal intent must be proven to indict Trump. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, Trump was told numerous times he needed to preserve documents but he tore them up, burned them, and stole them. Take the time to read what the law says:

18 USC §641, public money property or records, provides:

Whoever embezzles, steals, purloins, or knowingly converts to his use or the use of another, or without authority, sells, conveys or disposes of any record, voucher, money, or thing of value of the United States or of any department or agency thereof, or any property made or being made under contract for the United States or any department or agency thereof; or

Whoever receives, conceals, or retains the same with intent to convert it to his use or gain, knowing it to have been embezzled, stolen, purloined or converted—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both ….

18 USC §1361 provides:

Whoever willfully injures or commits any depredation against any property of the United States, or of any department or agency thereof, or any property which has been or is being manufactured or constructed for the United States, or any department or agency thereof, or attempts to commit any of the foregoing offenses, shall be punished as follows:

If the damage or attempted damage to such property exceeds the sum of $1,000, by a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than ten years, or both; if the damage or attempted damage to such property does not exceed the sum of $1,000, by a fine under this title or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both.

18 U.S. Code §2071. Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally provides:

(a) Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so takes and carries away any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing, filed or deposited with any clerk or officer of any court of the United States, or in any public office, or with any judicial or public officer of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

(b) Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States….

The first two statutes – 18 USC §641 and §1361 – require prosecutors to prove the property was of value, but information usually is valuable and the cost of retrieving information stored on government computers from back up files can be significant. The third statute – 18 USC §2071 – does not require proof that the stolen or destroyed property was of monetary value.

As the Department of Justice explains with respect to §2071:

There are several important aspects to this offense. First, it is a specific intent crime. This means that the defendant must act intentionally with knowledge that he is violating the law. See United States v. Simpson, 460 F.2d 515, 518 (9th Cir. 1972). Moreover, one case has suggested that this specific intent requires that the defendant know that the documents involved are public records. See United States v. DeGroat, 30 F. 764, 765 (E.D.Mich. 1887).

The acts proscribed by this section are defined broadly. Essentially three types of conduct are prohibited by 18 U.S.C. § 2071(a). These are: (1) concealment, removal, mutilation, obliteration or destruction of records; (2) any attempt to commit these proscribed acts; and (3) carrying away any record with the intent to conceal, remove, mutilate or destroy it. It should be noted that all of these acts involve either misappropriation of or damage to public records. This has led one court to conclude that the mere photocopying of these records does not violate 18 U.S.C. § 2071. See United States v. Rosner, 352 F. Supp. 915, 919-22 (S.D.N.Y. 1972).

Subsection (b) of 18 U.S.C. § 2071 contains a similar prohibition specifically directed at custodians of public records. Any custodian of a public record who “willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys (any record) shall be fined not more than $2,000 or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States.” While the range of acts proscribed by this subsection is somewhat narrower than subsection (a), it does provide the additional penalty of forfeiture of position with the United States.

United States Department of Justice, Criminal Resource Manual, §1663 (updated January 23, 2020).

If the stolen, lost or destroyed information pertains to the national defense, the offender is in even more trouble.

18 U.S.C. §793: Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information, provides:

(f) Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

(g) If two or more persons conspire to violate any of the foregoing provisions of this section, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each of the parties to such conspiracy shall be subject to the punishment provided for the offense which is the object of such conspiracy.

Note the conspiracy provision in §793(g) which reflects the law of conspiracy generally. Planning with someone else to destroy government documents or to commit any other crime is often as bad as the crime itself. The general conspiracy provision is set forth in 18 U.S.C. §371 (“If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both”).

And if the information pertains to an ongoing federal investigation the offender should be prepared to be charged under the obstruction of justice statutes. For example: 18 U.S. Code § 1512 provides:

(c) Whoever corruptly—

(1) alters, destroys, mutilates, or conceals a record, document, or other object, or attempts to do so, with the intent to impair the object’s integrity or availability for use in an official proceeding; or

(2) otherwise obstructs, influences, or impedes any official proceeding, or attempts to do so,

shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.

For purposes of this statute § 1512(f)(1) provides that “an official proceeding need not be pending or about to be instituted at the time of the offense.” That means that if it is known that there is likely to be a federal proceeding – whether by federal prosecutors or Congress — and someone destroys documents that pertain to that proceeding, there can be obstruction of justice.

Finally, if documents are missing, for example, from computers and computer files in a departing staffer’s office, someone from a federal agency, federal law enforcement, or a congressional committee investigating the matter may come asking about them. Lying about what happened to those documents is a great way to extend one’s reservation as a guest of the government, that is, with the Bureau of Prisons. 18 U.S.C. §1001 provides:

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully—

(1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact;

(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or

(3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry; shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years ….

Members of Congress –including the House Committee on Oversight and Reform and the Judiciary Committee – would be well advised to warn current administration officials of their duties to preserve records, the existing federal criminal laws, and the myriad congressional investigations to which the obstruction of justice statute may also apply.

The bottom line here is simple. Destroying or stealing documents belonging to the United States government is a crime. Destroying or stealing documents to cover up another crime, or activity that may be under investigation, is also a crime. Lying about what happened to missing documents is yet another crime. A departing federal official may take personal property from the office but no more. That includes perhaps some family photos – and of course that red cap. But everything else stays where it is. Anyone who doesn’t understand that could end up staying with the government a lot longer than anticipated or desired.
https://www.justsecurity.org/73265/destroying-federal-documents-during-a-presidential-transition-is-a-federal-crime/

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Scrivener7

(51,026 posts)
1. And these crimes don't require a whole lot of investigation. Plenty of witnesses
Tue Feb 8, 2022, 08:26 AM
Feb 2022

and a department dedicated to trying to prevent the loss of the destroyed documents. Plus those pesky dozens of boxes at Log o' Merde.

gab13by13

(21,438 posts)
2. Surely to Betsy, someone can verify that
Tue Feb 8, 2022, 08:30 AM
Feb 2022

Trump was told he needed to preserve those documents. Many were burned or mutilated beyond repair.

I being an internet lawyer would prosecute this case.

2 days from now, or less, this story will disappear.

no_hypocrisy

(46,231 posts)
4. Cut to the chase.
Tue Feb 8, 2022, 08:36 AM
Feb 2022

1. Trump didn't believe he'd be held accountable for ANY of his transgressions in the WH.
2. Trump didn't believe that investigations would turn up sufficient evidence to indict.
3. Trump didn't believe that even if he were to go to trial, the prosecutors could effectively ban a MAGA jury panelist.
4. Trump didn't believe that there wouldn't be a hung jury.
5. Trump didn't believe that he'd pay a dime or go to jail for an hour.

That's why he did it.

gab13by13

(21,438 posts)
6. Here's the thing about this case,
Tue Feb 8, 2022, 08:41 AM
Feb 2022

we don't know what important documents Trump destroyed. I have a question, does the National Archives know what documents were destroyed? The National Archives has a robust investigative team, why should not this team go after MF45? We don't know how busy DOJ is, I'm perfectly happy turning this case over to the National Archive police.

Who decides?

Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

gab13by13

(21,438 posts)
8. One more thing about what Trump did,
Tue Feb 8, 2022, 09:04 AM
Feb 2022

When this story broke, how was it portrayed in the MSM? It was portrayed as Trump's love letters from Kim. This was done with a deliberate purpose, to make light of what Trump did. This meme, Trump's love letters was spread across the MSM, even made its way here to DU.

Why bother investigating this, it is just personal love letters from an evil dictator, nothing to see here.

livetohike

(22,165 posts)
9. He should have been locked up well before this. Now there are so many cases of
Tue Feb 8, 2022, 09:59 AM
Feb 2022

his criminality that he’ll be in court for ever. Hopefully, I’ll live long enough to see him behind bars.

CousinIT

(9,262 posts)
10. Trump breaks several laws on a daily basis. Turns out they're ALL unenforceable because...
Tue Feb 8, 2022, 10:10 AM
Feb 2022

...he's not a DEMOCRAT.

LetMyPeopleVote

(145,660 posts)
11. According the Congressional Research service, TFG could be prosecuted
Tue Feb 8, 2022, 04:03 PM
Feb 2022



Here is the link to the report mentioned by Professor Beschloss
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R46129/4

In the event of potentially unlawful removal or destruction of government records, Title 44,
Section 3106, of the U.S. Code requires the head of a federal agency to notify the Archivist, who
initiates action with the Attorney General for the possible recovery of such records.22 The
Archivist is not authorized to independently investigate removal or recover records.23
_________________
22 Under Title 18, Section 2071, of the U.S. Code, anyone found guilty of “willfully and unlawfully” concealing, removing, mutilating, obliterating, destroying, or attempting to do any such action against a record can be fined and imprisoned for up to three years. In addition to fines and possible imprisonment, anyone holding federal office who is convicted of this crime can lose his or her position and be disqualified from holding federal office in the future

ultralite001

(894 posts)
12. White House 5-fingered lift...
Wed Feb 9, 2022, 11:02 PM
Feb 2022

Destroying or stealing documents belonging to the US government is a crime...

What did the rest of the light-fingered RTumpster familia take home??? the RTumpster's old lady???
Evil sons #1 and #2??? What about White House Barbie??? ITK and JK had ample opportunities (and
large handbags) to acquire "memorabilia" of their White House sojourn...

None of them are trustworthy... Search them all... every nook and cranny... Let no stone go unturned...

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