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[ColinC]

This message was self-deleted by its author (ColinC) on Mon Feb 28, 2022, 02:27 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[uponit7771]

1. UKR social media campaign against Putler has been devistating they're trying to fight back. Sounds..

... like bot shit

[MLAA]

2. Agree

[ColinC]

7. There is a lot of that, but even folks like Crystal Ball, etc. Seem to be saying wacky shit

Like. Really wacky. I mean she kinda fell of her rocker years ago, but it still is weird to me.

[AkFemDem]

16. You mean the same Krystal Ball who was furious when

Biden became the nominee and who has been pushing for a 2024 challenger?

[ColinC]

21. Yeah that one. I knew she was batshit but not

"support a foreign invasion by an autocratic regime in order to overthrow a democratically elected government" batshit.

[shrike3]

3. Chris Hedges has had quite a bit to say about Russia being "baited" into war.

It's all NATO and U.S.' fault. With NATO so close to its borders, it had to fight back.

[ColinC]

14. So weird. In that case the USSR should have invaded

in the 60s. Completely batshit.

[shrike3]

17. A friend shared one of his articles with me.

I checked out a few more. It really is all NATO's fault, according to him. But TruthDig also pushed the theory that Adam Schiff is in defense contractors' pockets and so pushed Russiagate.

I stopped paying attention to Hedges when he said the Catholic Church bore responsibility for the Iraq War. The church has committed plenty of verifiable sins on its own. No one needs to make up shit about it.

btw, TruthDig also touted Neo-nazi stuff about Ukraine in 2019.

[ColinC]

28. It feels like a lot of good people including hedges have lost their way

Very sad :/

[shrike3]

43. Yes, it's a shame, because he had a lot of good sense once upon a time.

[ColinC]

47. He literally wrote "war is a force that gives us meaning."

And is bandwagoning in favor of a foreign invasion of a neighboring country?

[shrike3]

53. Well, not bandwagoning, really.

More of a "both siderism." Russia was forced into lashing out, etc.

https://www.salon.com/2022/02/26/the-ukraine-and-how-we-got-here-chronicle-of-a-foretold/

[ColinC]

54. Fair enough

Still sucks 😞

[shrike3]

58. I know it sucks. I'm just trying to be as fair as possible. Hedges used to be a good commentator.

[BlueGreenLady]

4. Which "Progressives" are you talking about? n/t

[ColinC]

11. Progressive.org I have no idea wtf that is.

Also some idiot named crystal Ball or something. (Actually I know who she is, but i would rather not)

[Budi]

29. Rolf. Krystal Ball, well that explains a lot.

This lines are starkly being shown in broad daylight now.
Its who they've always been since their emergence into mass media back in 2012 to present.

Its an interesting dynamic to watch it evolve.

[ColinC]

34. Thank you! I don't understand it much and I'm trying to figure it out.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

33. It's a magazine founded by the LaFollettes. Link to the article you're talking about?

[ColinC]

35. Here

https://progressive.org/latest/us-reaping-sowed-in-ukraine-benjamin-davies-220201/

[WhiskeyGrinder]

36. Okay, an op-ed from two CODEPINK members, unsurprising. It's hardly "so many progressives," though.

[ColinC]

41. More than 1 is too many to me. More than 2 is "so many"

In my opinion there should be zero. I know, I'm wishing for too much here....

[JasonMain]

5. Ukraine should join NATO and no one should be allowed to interfere.

[Celerity]

19. Ukraine atm (and this was the case before the Russian invasions as well) doesn't meet

the requirements (as laid out by NATO itself) to join NATO.

[treestar]

44. Then I wonder what is Pootie so worried about?

And isn't he admitting he is adverse to peace as far as NATO goes?

NATO was a Cold War invention - he's why it is still necessary.

[Celerity]

51. He doesn't want it to eventually happen. He is in ever deepening states of paranoia.

[Arazi]

6. Link?

[Lovie777]

8. Trolls ....

[doc03]

9. First I ever heard about progressives backing Putin nt

[ColinC]

24. Not a whole lot. Just a few somewhat prominent figures

And a ton of no names on social media

[Hortensis]

31. Anti-Democratic, generally populist groups identifying "progressive" but with

a lot more to their agendas than repealing the ACA and replacing with "MfA." 2016 was not about healthcare, even if some were encouraged to think it was.

It's not so much that LW and RW populists "backed" Putin as that they imagine they could somehow get control if they could bring down the government/"establishment" protected by the Democratic Party. Same alliance of common interests for the same reasons as on the populist right, and in fact including the right against us, as we saw in action in 2016.

Some have seemed genuinely sympathetic to the former socialist union for itself, or perhaps nostalgic for, but only some. Putin has expressed some liking for socialism but said a return to it, except for certain minor elements, was impossible.

[LT Barclay]

10. One article? Is there more or is this a soft lob to initiate some progressive bashing?

[lagomorph777]

27. The latter.

[Bettie]

65. Frustrating

but expected.

I have a friend who used to be a lefty, but now he's gone to that space where the fringe of Right and Left meet in a cluster of insanity.

[ColinC]

39. Greenwald, Gabbard, progressive.org, Krystal Ball, Chris hedges

Rolf, etc. Whoever wrote that article. Also the DSA appears to have an out of touch response as well -which disappoints me.

They don't represent the vast majority of progressives, I get it. But I'm surprised so many seemed to completely fall off the wagon.

This is a completely separate take from those who bash Cori Bush and others like her for urging reasonable restraint in our response to Russia.

[shrike3]

50. Chris Hedges. It's apparently all NATO's fault.

https://www.salon.com/2022/02/26/the-ukraine-and-how-we-got-here-chronicle-of-a-foretold/

[Celerity]

12. Progressive.com is an American auto insurance site

https://www.progressive.com/

What site are you alluding to here?

Saw an article on progressive.com tying itself in knots trying to explain how the US is responsible for Ukraine's invasion

[ColinC]

22. Progressive.org

Sorry

[Celerity]

26. Oki, I went there. What article? A link in your OP would be most helpful.

TIA

[ColinC]

37. I don't want to share it in the op because it is a misleading article

But I'll share it here

https://progressive.org/latest/us-reaping-sowed-in-ukraine-benjamin-davies-220201/

[Celerity]

57. Well, that article is not doing what you claimed in the OP, as it was written weeks before

there was an invasion, so there was no invasion to justify.

Saw an article on progressive.org tying itself in knots trying to explain how the US is responsible for Ukraine's invasion

It is written by Code Pink, so hardly surprising that it takes the tone it does.

BY NICOLAS J S DAVIES, MEDEA BENJAMIN FEBRUARY 1, 2022 9:19 AM


Btw

The magazine has another, newer (after the invasion actually began) article blaming Trump and isolationism.

https://progressive.org/latest/isolationists%E2%80%99-elegy-fiore-220226/

[ColinC]

66. Thank you. I think I might have jumped the gun on this.

And the tone seems to be a basis for a lot of folks blatantly defending Russia's actions.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

48. Great. Now I just switched my auto insurance thanks to you.

Thanks a lot

[ColinC]

49. ...

[Celerity]

60. Hope I saved you a few quid!

[brush]

13. What you're missing is those are idiots. They might as well...

say Hitler was justified in invading Poland.

Ukraine is a sovereign nation that has the right to determine it's own alliances.

Fuck Putin and Russia.

[LenaBaby61]

59. THIS 👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻

[ZenDem]

15. Got a link?

When I go to Progressive.com I get the insurance site.

It doesn't surprise me, though. There is always that handful that want to be contrarian just to "appear" smarter than everyone else.

[ColinC]

25. Progressive.org

Sorry.

[JustAnotherGen]

18. They've fallen for Russian Propaganda

Also - they look to how we have behaved and compare it to that.


I look to how we FAILED to behave in the late 1930's - and waited for Japan to attack us before entering into WW II.

If we allow Russia to get away with it like Germany did Czechoslovakia - they will continue to roll over Europe. This weak economy regressive 'country' will roll over those more advanced in humanity.

[Budi]

20. They're getting appropriately called out. As in WTF.

The backtracking by many who condemned US & Ukraine at the onset is quite astonishing to see today.

Oh well. That's for them to figure how to justify at this point.

[Ocelot II]

23. There are those on the putative left, like Glenn Greenwald and Tulsi Gabbard,

not to mention the odious Jill Stein, who have been unabashedly pro-Putin, but I wouldn't call those people progressives. Sometimes fringe elements of both the right and the left loop around and become almost indistinguishable.

[Hortensis]

61. So true. A lot of actors hide various goals behind the term "progressive"

because they can sell it to voters across the spectrum. tRump didn't use the term but ran on many of the same progressive promises as LW "progressives.

[Kashkakat v.2.0]

30. They are believing the Russky disinformation that has been targetted at them - this is how

disinformation works. The point is not necessarily to convince people of these things, but simply to sow confusion and discord...to the point people dont know what to believe and just give up. Breaking up alliances and coalitions (eg moderate left vs more radical left) furthers the goals of the Putinists and here at home the radical RW.

Wish people would google to determine veracity of things before spreading false info.... but too many arent doing that

[Tetrachloride]

32. The Progressive magazine is based in Madison Wisconsin

I had forgotten it existed.

i may have visited their office once.

[Caliman73]

38. There has always been a small group of people on the left who support anyone...

who appears to be going after American Hegemony.

Oliver Stone did a documentary with another fellow, which painted the Soviet Union as the victim of American Imperialism. To be honest, there was a tiny bit of validity to the idea. The Dulles brothers in Washington, pushed a very hard line against the USSR during and after WWII which set up the Cold War.

However, that could at least accurately be viewed as a struggle between proponents of Capitalism and Communism. Russia is a capitalist state (Plutocratic to be sure, but capitalist).

I think that people who still advocate for Russia as the "victim" are just painted into a corner. You can be against American Imperialism and also be against Russian Aggression.

[orwell]

40. This is actually not new...

...my own very leftist brother has spouted this line. We have had arguments at family parties about this. I think this latest incursion has given him pause.

If you go to outlets like Democracy Now or websites like Counterpunch, listen to far left economists and political thinkers, like Hedges or Chomsky, there is an underlying desire for socialist/communist ideals. It has been there for decades. Some of them are simply incapable of recognizing any benefit from capitalism and/or free markets. That doesn't make everything they say wrong or right, but the information must be viewed with an understanding of the bias involved.

When you see yourself as a hammer, everything is a nail.

Most people bring their ideology to a cognitive frame and then try to force all the data (facts) to fit it, no matter how twisted they need to make the logical construction. When there is such a pure example of theory vs. reality (Socialist Putin invading a smaller country and inflicting civilian casualties) those that back him can see him blatantly operating counter to their theory/ideals, so they go into cognitive dissonance mode. My own brother rails against the 1% and lauds the spectacularly unsuccessful Occupy movement while being in the 1% himself. That is classic cognitive dissonance.

It's easy to be anti war until someone points a gun in your face...

In the end, there is no perfect system or viewpoint. They all have advantages and disadvantages. What tends to happen is systems fail when they become self reinforcing, when they "get high on their own supply." That is likely what is going on right now with Vlad the Inhaler and his inner circle.

That is not to say there is not truth. Data and observation inform truth, at least truth up to the limit of your observation. That is what science is for. That is why, in this era of false facts, duplicity, propaganda, infantile opinions, and situational morality, science, data, and facts are under constant attack.

In war, the first casualty is the truth...

[The Magistrate]

42. Orwell's 'Notes On Nationalism', Sir, Remains Evergreen

https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/notes-on-nationalism/


It is also worth emphasizing once again that nationalist feeling can be purely negative. There are, for example, Trotskyists who have become simply enemies of the U.S.S.R. without developing a corresponding loyalty to any other unit. When one grasps the implications of this, the nature of what I mean by nationalism becomes a good deal clearer. A nationalist is one who thinks solely, or mainly, in terms of competitive prestige. He may be a positive or a negative nationalist – that is, he may use his mental energy either in boosting or in denigrating – but at any rate his thoughts always turn on victories, defeats, triumphs and humiliations. He sees history, especially contemporary history, as the endless rise and decline of great power units, and every event that happens seems to him a demonstration that his own side is on the up-grade and some hated rival is on the down-grade. But finally, it is important not to confuse nationalism with mere worship of success. The nationalist does not go on the principle of simply ganging up with the strongest side. On the contrary, having picked his side, he persuades himself that it is the strongest, and is able to stick to his belief even when the facts are overwhelmingly against him. Nationalism is power hunger tempered by self-deception. Every nationalist is capable of the most flagrant dishonesty, but he is also – since he is conscious of serving something bigger than himself – unshakeably certain of being in the right.




But for an intellectual, transference has an important function which I have already mentioned shortly in connection with Chesterton. It makes it possible for him to be much more nationalistic – more vulgar, more silly, more malignant, more dishonest – than he could ever be on behalf of his native country, or any unit of which he had real knowledge. When one sees the slavish or boastful rubbish that is written about Stalin, the Red army, etc. by fairly intelligent and sensitive people, one realizes that this is only possible because some kind of dislocation has taken place. In societies such as ours, it is unusual for anyone describable as an intellectual to feel a very deep attachment to his own country. Public opinion – that is, the section of public opinion of which he as an intellectual is aware – will not allow him to do so. Most of the people surrounding him are sceptical and disaffected, and he may adopt the same attitude from imitativeness or sheer cowardice: in that case he will have abandoned the form of nationalism that lies nearest to hand without getting any closer to a genuinely internationalist outlook. He still feels the need for a Fatherland, and it is natural to look for one somewhere abroad. Having found it, he can wallow unrestrainedly in exactly those emotions from which he believes that he has emancipated himself. God, the King, the Empire, the Union Jack – all the overthrown idols can reappear under different names, and because they are not recognized for what they are they can be worshipped with a good conscience. Transferred nationalism, like the use of scapegoats, is a way of attaining salvation without altering one’s conduct.

[Kashkakat v.2.0]

45. Sorry, not finding any such article on progressive.org Pls be careful ev and check things

before posting. Especially now.

[ColinC]

52. Here

https://progressive.org/latest/us-reaping-sowed-in-ukraine-benjamin-davies-220201/

[radius777]

46. The far-left is pro-Putin and illiberal as much as the far-right is.

The far-left hates the West due to the expansion of capitalism and the MIC.
The far-right hates the West due to the expansion of diversity and rights for non-whites.
Putin hates the West due to the expansion of democracies and the weakening of autocracies like his.

Putin funds all of the fringe movements; they've found common cause though their motivations are different. They tend to view Putin as their hero in counterbalancing the US. They all fear NATO and the EU due to their role in expanding and defending Western military and economic interests.

[ColinC]

62. I mean I identify with the far left and none of the things you mention

Apply to me. But it seems a ton of folks do identify with those things.

I get it. There's things to fault the west over, and it is totally reasonable to consider those things in the grand scheme. But a foreign invasion by an autocratic regime to overthrow a democratic government is completely indefensible.

Yes, the US and it's allies have done similar things in the past but that again doesn't change something horrible and unjust from being horrible and unjust. Two wrongs don't make a right or whatever.

[OilemFirchen]

55. Started with Victoria Nuland's cookies.

I think they had coconut in them, or something.

[JI7]

56. There has always been this group who are mainly conspiracy theists and grifters

[shrike3]

63. Consortium News is being its usual self.

https://consortiumnews.com/2022/02/28/what-putin-says-are-the-causes-aims-of-russias-military-action/

Russian President Vladimir Putin said in a TV address Thursday morning that the goal of Russia’s military operation was not to take control of Ukraine, but to “demilitarize” and “de-Nazify” the country. Moments after he spoke, explosions were heard in several Ukrainian cities.

The Russian Defense Ministry said these were “precision” attacks against Ukrainian military installations and that civilians were not being targeted. It said Ukraine’s air force on the ground and its air defenses had been destroyed.

The Ukrainian government, which declared a state of emergency and broke off diplomatic relations with Russia, said an invasion was underway and that Russia had landed forces at the port city of Odessa, on Ukraine’s Black Sea coast, as well as entering from Belarus in the north. It said it had killed 50 Russian troops and shot down six Russian fighter jets, which Russia denied.

Putin said one of the operation’s aims was to arrest certain people in Ukraine, likely the neo-Nazis who burned dozens of unarmed people alive in a building in Odessa in 2014. In his speech Monday, Putin said Moscow knows who they are. Russia said it aims to destroy neo-Nazi brigades, such as Right Sector and the Azov Battalion.

[Sapient Donkey]

64. Before Russia invaded, but had several giant armies amassed on various Ukrainian borders

The biggest so-called anti-war organizations in the west were having protests, but they were protesting some imaginary war against Russia. All the claims of a possible Russian invasion were made up fairytales to demonize Putin. After Russia invaded they did make some minor changes to their arguments, but it's less about what Russia has done and more about what the US and Europe shouldn't do (give assistance to Ukraine or sanction Russia) It's clear they are not anti-war, but just anti-west. They lost all credibility as legitimate anti-war groups as far as I am concerned. They are no different that Ben Norton and others at thegrayzone or the other authoritarian apologists.