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ColinC

(8,551 posts)
Wed Mar 16, 2022, 02:31 PM Mar 2022

Do you support the US enforcing a no fly zone in Ukraine?

Generally the way I'm starting to feel about this is that we are not the ones being attacked. We are not fighting this war, and we are not directly on the border with a country that has made clear they think we belong to them. eastern European countries have been increasingly supportive of intervention such as no fly zones and peacekeeping missions entering the country.

These are the countries that are under direct threat, and if attacked even in a small way, would trigger a direct war with Russia. To me, all of the assumptions about a no fly zone are skipping several steps of escalation, some of which are already occurring without further action. To assume direct intervention would result in world war seems to be ignoring the fact that no intervention could also lead to the same thing. It is possible to consider options of greater involvement like a no fly zone in a risk-informed manner which does not directly result in world war 3 -as none of the previous skirmishes with Russian and NATO troops ever actually resulted in such a thing.


27 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
Yes NATO should enforce a no fly zone in Ukraine.
7 (26%)
No. NATO should not enforce a no fly zone in Ukraine.
20 (74%)
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Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll
31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Do you support the US enforcing a no fly zone in Ukraine? (Original Post) ColinC Mar 2022 OP
Still no. It gets harder every day to resist the urge for Wingus Dingus Mar 2022 #1
Pass Ohio Joe Mar 2022 #2
Please watch this video from the 40 minute mark... orwell Mar 2022 #3
+10000000000000000 Celerity Mar 2022 #26
It's far too difficult for me to determine the consequences Torchlight Mar 2022 #4
A no fly zone is you can't fly over the White House. This would be combat NATO against Russia. marie999 Mar 2022 #5
Only if Russia is stupid enough to stay ColinC Mar 2022 #6
And if they stay? What if Russian planes shoot down a couple of American planes? marie999 Mar 2022 #11
They are more likely to attack Poland. Again. They aren't that stupid. ColinC Mar 2022 #18
You don't understand Russian war planning relayerbob Mar 2022 #19
I think this is a problem for many in general DetroitLegalBeagle Mar 2022 #22
EXactly, in fact relayerbob Mar 2022 #28
You're asking the wrong question FakeNoose Mar 2022 #7
How else would you "enforce" a no fly zone? ColinC Mar 2022 #10
That's the point, we cannot declare a "no fly" zone FakeNoose Mar 2022 #20
The "No Fly Zone" is a misleading term relayerbob Mar 2022 #8
How else would you "enforce" a no fly zone? ColinC Mar 2022 #9
You don't have a no fly zone. marie999 Mar 2022 #13
You can't. That's the point relayerbob Mar 2022 #15
Way, way over my pay grade. MineralMan Mar 2022 #12
What previous NATO/ Russia skirmishes? sarisataka Mar 2022 #14
Absolutely no way! RocRizzo55 Mar 2022 #16
Yes HAB911 Mar 2022 #17
It will definitely be later. ColinC Mar 2022 #21
No. BlueTsunami2018 Mar 2022 #23
Hell no. Hard pass on WWIII starting through something this avoidable. Celerity Mar 2022 #24
I don't support the idea of WWIII. Which is REALLY what you're asking. Spider Jerusalem Mar 2022 #25
What previous NATO/Russian military engagements are you referring to? Torchlight Mar 2022 #27
Only asking if anybody agrees with Zelenskyy about the no fly zone. ColinC Mar 2022 #30
I defer to the professionals in charge. Talitha Mar 2022 #29
For me, it's still a hard NO. nt MarineCombatEngineer Mar 2022 #31

Wingus Dingus

(8,066 posts)
1. Still no. It gets harder every day to resist the urge for
Wed Mar 16, 2022, 02:34 PM
Mar 2022

us to intervene in the face of Russia's terror campaign, but we shouldn't add oxygen to a fire that's starting to go out.

Ohio Joe

(21,817 posts)
2. Pass
Wed Mar 16, 2022, 02:37 PM
Mar 2022

I think President Biden has worked excellently with our NATO partners dealing with the invasion of Ukraine and right now they are not going for it... I'll continue to defer and support their handling of the invasion, and keep my ignorant opinion of the subject to myself.

orwell

(7,794 posts)
3. Please watch this video from the 40 minute mark...
Wed Mar 16, 2022, 02:41 PM
Mar 2022

...it is extremely relevant to this issue.

A NFZ is a gift to Putler at this point.

&t=2470s

Torchlight

(3,693 posts)
4. It's far too difficult for me to determine the consequences
Wed Mar 16, 2022, 02:42 PM
Mar 2022

both immediate as well as long-term.



Though it certainly would have helped stem the tides of death in the Second Congo War, the oppression of the Uhgyars, Darfur, Second Sudanese Civil War, etc., those conflicts never seemed quite as popular among the prime-time-audiences as this particular conflict. Obvious reasons, I'd guess.

ColinC

(8,551 posts)
6. Only if Russia is stupid enough to stay
Wed Mar 16, 2022, 02:45 PM
Mar 2022

They have been the main escalators of this situation since day one primarily because they have gone unchallenged. Intervention like this would likely immediately end the conflict, as Putin is pathologically opportunistic but not suicidal.

ColinC

(8,551 posts)
18. They are more likely to attack Poland. Again. They aren't that stupid.
Wed Mar 16, 2022, 02:53 PM
Mar 2022

Russia has avoided NATO troops at every opportunity. This wouldn't be different. However, the recent attack on the training center was only 10 miles from Poland. If they are stupid enough to attack NATO, they will do it entirely the same way they did with Ukraine: completely unprovoked and claiming they won't. Either way would cause is nuclear war, but only one would more likely prevent it.

relayerbob

(6,592 posts)
19. You don't understand Russian war planning
Wed Mar 16, 2022, 02:55 PM
Mar 2022

They WANT to provoke us into this. They believe that a limited tactical nuclear war is winnable, and have been practicing it for years.

A frightening prophetic article from 2015. Biden has deliberately pushed the Russians out of their planning and comfort zone. https://www.vox.com/2015/6/29/8845913/russia-war

DetroitLegalBeagle

(1,975 posts)
22. I think this is a problem for many in general
Wed Mar 16, 2022, 03:20 PM
Mar 2022

People in the West are looking at things through a Western mindset, not a Russian one. We differ quite a bit culturally and philosophically and this extends into their military mindset as well. We think using a nuclear weapon is absolutely horrifying and only to be done under the most dire of circumstances. The Russians do not think that at all. They see tactical nuclear weapons and strategic nuclear weapons as very different things and believe that escalating to the use of tactical nukes during a conventional war is a valid strategy to get get things to go in their favor. As you have said, they believe a limited nuclear war is winnable.

relayerbob

(6,592 posts)
28. EXactly, in fact
Wed Mar 16, 2022, 03:41 PM
Mar 2022

they are trying to use that revulsion against us, to divide the West. A country that can take hospitals hostage and bomb cities into ruins, will not have qualms about taking out an airbase with a tactical nuke, and then (they would hope) that NATO would be so horrified that we do anything and agree to anything, to prevent another one from getting used.

FakeNoose

(33,605 posts)
7. You're asking the wrong question
Wed Mar 16, 2022, 02:46 PM
Mar 2022

If we declare Ukraine a "no-fly" zone, we are effectively declaring war on Russia. It means we'll go in and shoot down Russian planes, missiles, etc. Putin will then be free to declare war on us and bring out the nukes.

Are we ready to do that? Hell No!

FakeNoose

(33,605 posts)
20. That's the point, we cannot declare a "no fly" zone
Wed Mar 16, 2022, 02:56 PM
Mar 2022

... unless we're ready to start World War III.

relayerbob

(6,592 posts)
8. The "No Fly Zone" is a misleading term
Wed Mar 16, 2022, 02:47 PM
Mar 2022

As far off the mark as "Special Military Operation". It requires 24/7 combat air patrols by hundreds of fighters, plus AWACS and tankers, covering a country the size of Texas. The Russians will shoot planes down with SAMs, even if they withhold flying planes (which they probably won't). To prevent that, we have to hit SAMs in Ukraine, Belarus and Russia. A "No Fly Zone" is effectively a declaration of an air war against Ukraine. They will then be justified in telling their people they are fighting NATO and might even strike Ukraine with a nuke, killing WAY more people than are dying now. Yes, Ukraine will be first on the list, to try to frighten everyone off. After that, if we don't back off, airfields in Poland, etc.

Hard pass on that. I support sending them MiGs, even if they aren't really all that useful, every S-300 we can get our hands on, and drones for taking out artillery.

relayerbob

(6,592 posts)
15. You can't. That's the point
Wed Mar 16, 2022, 02:51 PM
Mar 2022

So, you're OK with triggering a much wider war in Europe? One that will actually unify the Russian people against the West and supporting Putin. Tactically bad, strategically worse.

 

RocRizzo55

(980 posts)
16. Absolutely no way!
Wed Mar 16, 2022, 02:51 PM
Mar 2022

A no-fly zone would equate to a hot war with Russia. A hot war with Russia would be nuclear suicide for the human race.

Celerity

(44,633 posts)
24. Hell no. Hard pass on WWIII starting through something this avoidable.
Wed Mar 16, 2022, 03:26 PM
Mar 2022
To assume direct intervention would result in world war seems to be ignoring the fact that no intervention could also lead to the same thing.


False choice dilemma as the 2nd part is pure speculation, versus the VERY high probability that shooting down Russian jets (will will deffo occur if we do a no fly zone over Ukraine) WILL kick off WWIII.
 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
25. I don't support the idea of WWIII. Which is REALLY what you're asking.
Wed Mar 16, 2022, 03:27 PM
Mar 2022

And a no-fly zone would not be effective anyway, not against artillery and missiles (which is what the Russians are actually using, mostly, and not planes).

Torchlight

(3,693 posts)
27. What previous NATO/Russian military engagements are you referring to?
Wed Mar 16, 2022, 03:41 PM
Mar 2022

Or are you just up-selling previous and documented NATO/Russia conflicts of interest?

ColinC

(8,551 posts)
30. Only asking if anybody agrees with Zelenskyy about the no fly zone.
Wed Mar 16, 2022, 10:35 PM
Mar 2022

Apparently nobody thinks he should have what he is asking for.

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