Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

blue-wave

(4,369 posts)
Sat Apr 16, 2022, 03:38 AM Apr 2022

NATO Scrambling More Re: Russian Jets Near Poland

NATO Scrambling More Often in Response to Russian Jets Near Poland

WARSAW, Poland— Russia is increasingly harassing NATO aircraft near Polish air space, reinforcing the need for both Polish and NATO air policing, including various U.S. Air Force assets, a senior Polish Air Force official told Air Force Magazine.

“The current situation brings more tension—more risk—and it’s definitely more serious for the whole NATO community,” Polish Chief of the Air Force Directorate Brig. Gen. Ireneusz Nowak said via video conference.

Nowak said Russian Su-35s, Su-27s, and MiG-29s from Belarus have approached Polish air space multiple times since the invasion of Ukraine.

“It’s a rather frequent situation,” Nowak said. “Fighters are scrambled twice or three times from the [quick reaction alert] typically in 24 hours, so that’s a lot.”

Russian air defense systems also track NATO aircraft.

“Whatever they have, they flew here,” he said. “There are a variety of threats.”

Nowak said Russia is also keeping its airborne early warning and control aircraft, the Beriev A-50, airborne at all times.

Russia’s mounting combat jet presence near Polish air space bordering the Baltics and Belarus in recent months was met early by U.S. deployments from RAF Lakenheath, U.K., and Spangdahlem Air Base, Germany, beginning the first week of February, prior to the Feb. 24 invasion. NATO partners Germany and the United Kingdom also joined the effort.

Even with the NATO plus-up on aircraft, Russia is testing the air space and the NATO response time.

“They harass us,” Nowak said. “They force us to scramble, and they force us to intercept them.”

Poland keeps four quick reaction alert aircraft—two MiG-29s and two F-16s—ready for air policing.

Polish skies border the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad on the Baltic Sea to the north and Belarus to the east. Poland also has a border with Ukraine to its southeast, but Russian jets battling Ukraine have yet to venture so close to NATO airspace, choosing instead to fire cruise and hypersonic missiles from Russian territory at Ukrainian targets near the Polish border.

“We put a lot of effort currently into this air policing system,” Nowak said. “The problem for us is that, with relatively small airports like we have, and we have a small fighter fleet, its exhausting for us, so we cannot rotate like you can.”

Poland’s need is urgent, and it is rooted in what Poland perceives as a weak response by NATO to Russian President Vladimir Putin’s incursion in Ukraine in 2014.

“This time, there is a very sober awareness that our reaction must be very decisive,” he said.

In turn, Poland has taken on tremendous risk, hosting 10,500 allied troops in addition to 24/7 air patrol and surveillance.

“We have a very busy air domain recently,” Nowak said.

“We reacted as required, and we postured as required,” he added. “We showed the adversaries that we are ready, and we are not going to back off.”

U.S. and Poland both fly F-16s, and all Polish pilots flying American aircraft train in the United States. However, the quick response did not come without operational shortcomings.

“We have discovered some operational gaps due to the fact that we are quite a young NATO country,” Nowak said. “So, we catch up with the U.S. Air Force capabilities.”

U.S. Air Force fighters patrol Poland’s skies alongside the Polish Air Force, plugging into a complex network of American, Polish, and NATO systems under NATO Air Command that initially took a week to work through, Nowak admitted, before the air picture could be shared properly. The so-called Enhanced Air Policing missions have brought regular rotations of U.S. fighters from across Europe, including Air Force F-16s and F-35s, and Marine Corps F/A-18s.

Poland’s adoption of American techniques, tactics, and procedures along with joint training and education have made the deployments smooth.

“One day American Airmen [arrive] here, the next day they can generate operational sorties,” he said.

Russia has, in turn, used state-controlled media to build opposition to Poland and public support for an invasion of the Baltic States.

“Poland is perceived as a threat to Russia and also as a country which supports a strong U.S. presence here in Europe,” Nowak said. “For Poland, our special relationship with the U.S. Air Force is very important. It’s vital for us.”

https://www.airforcemag.com/nato-intercepts-of-russian-aircraft-near-polands-skies-increasing/
13 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies

James48

(4,443 posts)
1. Poland is leading on defense
Sat Apr 16, 2022, 05:07 AM
Apr 2022

I’m hearing lots of good things about Poland’s military improvements.

Aussie105

(5,444 posts)
3. One slip up by either side, and it will be on, full scale.
Sat Apr 16, 2022, 06:20 AM
Apr 2022

That's the intention by Russia, to get a reason to get more aggressive in the air.

Perhaps Poland and others should keep their fighters on the ground, but remind Russia politely NATO air surveillance is fully operational, as are their surface to air missiles?
You know, a simple message - stay out of our air space or else!

BumRushDaShow

(129,662 posts)
4. "One day American Airmen [arrive] here, the next day they can generate operational sorties,"
Sat Apr 16, 2022, 06:48 AM
Apr 2022

That's because the United States has been in continual, non-stop fucking combat for the past 20 years since 9/11, whether in Iraq, Afghanistan, or wherever "Al Qaeda/ISIL/ISIS" existed.

Study estimates have been upwards of $2 trillion fighting in just Afghanistan alone (a figure that is just over Russia's (now-former) annual GDP) - https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/figures/2021/human-and-budgetary-costs-date-us-war-afghanistan-2001-2022





And when you include that area AND the Middle East, the cost over that period soared to over $6 trillion -

America has spent $6.4 trillion on wars in the Middle East and Asia since 2001, a new study says

Published Wed, Nov 20 2019 10:47 AM EST Updated Wed, Nov 20 2019 2:19 PM EST



WASHINGTON — American taxpayers have spent $6.4 trillion on post-9/11 wars and military action in the Middle East and Asia, according to a new study. That total is $2 trillion more than the entire federal government spending during the recently completed 2019 fiscal year. The U.S. government spent $4.4 trillion during the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30, according to the Treasury Department.

The report, from the Watson Institute of International and Public Affairs at Brown University, also finds that more than 801,000 people have died as a direct result of fighting. Of those, more than 335,000 have been civilians. Another 21 million people have been displaced due to violence.

The report comes as the Trump administration works to withdraw the U.S. military presence from war-torn Syria. Last year, President Donald Trump went through a similar debate over whether to withdraw U.S. troops from Afghanistan, ultimately agreeing to keep them there but only after repeatedly raising questions about why they should stay.

The $6.4 trillion figure reflects the cost across the U.S. federal government since the price of America’s wars is not borne by the Defense Department alone, according to Neta Crawford, who authored the study. Crawford explains that the post-9/11 wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Syria have expanded to more than 80 countries — “becoming a truly global war on terror.”

(snip)

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/20/us-spent-6point4-trillion-on-middle-east-wars-since-2001-study.html


So yeah... "American arrives" and "the next day they can generate operational sorties". For fucking $6 trillion and 20 years of doing this, that should be the case.

BumRushDaShow

(129,662 posts)
9. I just bookmarked this thread
Sat Apr 16, 2022, 07:31 AM
Apr 2022

so I can get back to those graphs because I just found the war cost one this morning and the study that references it.

In fact, there is a whole section devoted to this from Brown Univ. here - https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/

And here is the latest graph - $8 trillion (to include all the vet care as well)!!! https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/figures/2021/BudgetaryCosts





(I have posted the GDP one many times in other threads)

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
10. I bookmarked too! Especially to get back to these graphs.
Sat Apr 16, 2022, 07:40 AM
Apr 2022

Thank you again for posting and for the link! Very handy to have at one's disposal.

BumRushDaShow

(129,662 posts)
12. You are welcome!
Sat Apr 16, 2022, 08:11 AM
Apr 2022

This whole thing apparently flew under the radar because it appears it was setup and published during the previous administration's term, so it was lost under all that noise and was "suppressed".

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
7. It does seem to be going that way, doesn't it?
Sat Apr 16, 2022, 07:23 AM
Apr 2022

Putin seems to want to force it. He will leave the west with no choice but to engage.

mitch96

(13,929 posts)
13. "They force us to scramble, and they force us to intercept them." This has been going on for years
Sat Apr 16, 2022, 09:11 AM
Apr 2022

A friend in the Air force who was stationed in Alaska said they test our response time an we test theirs. The russian and Chinese turn away just in time to not get intercepted..
This is different especially with what's going on in UKR..
As stated, one or two slips and its game on...
I fear with disastrous consequence. I hope clear heads prevail...
YMMV
m

machoneman

(4,014 posts)
8. Note that by having so many fighters let alone AWACS planes aloft, Russia is severely taxing....
Sat Apr 16, 2022, 07:31 AM
Apr 2022

...the planes, ground crews and more. Engines needed replacement/repair, tires get eaten up, airframes get older with only so many takeoffs and landings, ground crews get beat up from all the work needed to keep them flying and more. We can afford it, they can't.

IIRC, for every flying hour, it takes 30-35 or so man-hours of inspection, repair, tire changes, hydraulic system checks and more. And that's for every single one engine fighter. Their AWACs four-engine planes need far more time than this. Perhaps someone here can update more current data on flying versus maintenance hours.

"The 114th Fighter Wing F-16s currently requires 33 maintenance man-hours per flying-hour which includes preventative maintenance inspections." Quote from Defense Dept. site.

oioioi

(1,127 posts)
11. It is not enough to say we must not wage war...
Sat Apr 16, 2022, 07:46 AM
Apr 2022

It is necessary to love peace and sacrifice for it.

We must concentrate not merely on the negative expulsion of war, but the positive affirmation of peace."

- Martin Luther King, Jr.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»NATO Scrambling More Re: ...