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This says it all right here, folks. (Original Post) kpete Apr 2022 OP
Exactly. niyad Apr 2022 #1
Or at least nothing to do with Jesus Geechie Apr 2022 #2
well christians, followers of christ (jesus christ) .... w0nderer Apr 2022 #27
You would think! But Geechie Apr 2022 #32
We have to stop calling them Christian. They are not Christian. They use the term as a themaguffin Apr 2022 #3
If they aren't Christians, what are they, exactly? Mariana Apr 2022 #7
I'm sure someone will correct me but Pharisees or Sadducees might be accurate. Probatim Apr 2022 #8
Has anyone said that the Pharisees and the Sadducees weren't Jewish? Mariana Apr 2022 #14
Maybe that was the poster's point - they aren't Christians because they're doing it wrong. Probatim Apr 2022 #16
If they aren't Christians, they must be something else. Mariana Apr 2022 #18
Or they're self-satisfied pricks who lord their religiosity over lesser folks. Probatim Apr 2022 #19
History has very clearly shown us Mariana Apr 2022 #23
Absolutely right wryter2000 Apr 2022 #34
Yes. I call them::: Political Christians rather than Christians of faith. keithbvadu2 Apr 2022 #42
I like this labeling. ShazzieB Apr 2022 #49
The only entry requirement for being a Christian is identifying as a Christian Major Nikon Apr 2022 #12
They've hijacked the label.. Permanut Apr 2022 #15
I think in most cases, their faith is genuine. Mariana Apr 2022 #17
Their belief in themselves as righteous is true mnhtnbb Apr 2022 #39
Jesus gave a simple test to know those who followed him. summer_in_TX Apr 2022 #53
Assholes whose beliefs are counter to the Gospel. themaguffin Apr 2022 #24
SELFISH cynical_idealist Apr 2022 #25
How about Marc Maron's description? wryter2000 Apr 2022 #35
How about..? Whatthe_Firetruck Apr 2022 #51
Is there any time in history when this wasn't the case? Major Nikon Apr 2022 #10
For most of human history, wnylib Apr 2022 #29
Politics and religion use each other to gain power and wealth. keithbvadu2 Apr 2022 #40
It was Jewish self-governance that led to the execution of Jesus Major Nikon Apr 2022 #54
I would have responded to your post sooner, but wnylib Apr 2022 #59
It sounds as if you are reading more into statements so you can refute them Major Nikon Apr 2022 #60
The role of Paul as the founder of wnylib Apr 2022 #61
I didn't say it was biased, although it almost certainly is to some degree Major Nikon Apr 2022 #62
Sigh. Nearly every point you bring up wnylib May 2022 #63
I don't have a negative view of the series Major Nikon May 2022 #65
Regarding your view that wnylib May 2022 #64
No true Scotsman fallacy. Caliman73 Apr 2022 #28
That's my point, they aren't practicing the faith. They are counter to the Gospel. themaguffin Apr 2022 #31
How of "no true Scotsman" getting invoked is itself the fallacy fallacy? ck4829 Apr 2022 #56
I just call them A Morpheus Felinae Apr 2022 #38
Christian is as Christian does; there is no test that all Christian denominations agree to NullTuples Apr 2022 #43
It certainly says something Sherman A1 Apr 2022 #4
Sometimes a pithy statement says more than a newspaper's editorial page. Perfect! erronis Apr 2022 #5
You would think if they are banning books for profanity, etc, the bible Emile Apr 2022 #6
truth cannot be denied llashram Apr 2022 #9
But it can be punished. keithbvadu2 Apr 2022 #41
Indeed. Hypocrites Roc2020 Apr 2022 #11
It sure does! smh liberalla Apr 2022 #13
Bible shmible. twodogsbarking Apr 2022 #20
K&R ck4829 Apr 2022 #21
Love your neighbor. Marcuse Apr 2022 #22
Bible also says this... Caliman73 Apr 2022 #30
mic drop of the week at least! n/t w0nderer Apr 2022 #26
They love smiting and wrath IronLionZion Apr 2022 #33
K & R & Retweeted! SunSeeker Apr 2022 #36
There's no better way to say it. sarchasm Apr 2022 #37
Aunt Crabby nails it again. TomSlick Apr 2022 #44
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2022 #52
The 'good' thing about the Bible Aussie105 Apr 2022 #45
K&r Demovictory9 Apr 2022 #46
K&R - nt Ohio Joe Apr 2022 #47
HELL YEAH!!! calimary Apr 2022 #48
Thank You for Posting & Sharing With Us...K and R Stuart G Apr 2022 #50
k&r n/t lordsummerisle Apr 2022 #55
Bravo! (nt) Paladin Apr 2022 #57
And then there's the Catholic version. XacerbatedDem Apr 2022 #58

w0nderer

(1,937 posts)
27. well christians, followers of christ (jesus christ) ....
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 12:33 PM
Apr 2022

should they not stick to the new testament largely yeah?

new covenant and all that

Geechie

(865 posts)
32. You would think! But
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 01:02 PM
Apr 2022

as Mahatma Gandhi famously said (to CS Lewis, I think) — 'I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'

themaguffin

(3,826 posts)
3. We have to stop calling them Christian. They are not Christian. They use the term as a
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 09:51 AM
Apr 2022

cultural identity - a white conservative one. They are in no way, actual Christians.

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
7. If they aren't Christians, what are they, exactly?
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 10:39 AM
Apr 2022

Are they atheists? Are they secretly followers of some other religion, pretending to be Christians? Something else?

Probatim

(2,529 posts)
8. I'm sure someone will correct me but Pharisees or Sadducees might be accurate.
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 10:41 AM
Apr 2022

The ones Jesus railed against in the Bible.

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
14. Has anyone said that the Pharisees and the Sadducees weren't Jewish?
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 10:57 AM
Apr 2022

The poster doesn't claim that these people are are bad Christians who are doing it wrong, but insists that they aren't Christians at all.

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
18. If they aren't Christians, they must be something else.
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 11:09 AM
Apr 2022

There aren't all that many choices. They must either be unbelievers pretending to be Christians, or they're followers of some other religion pretending to be Christians.

Probatim

(2,529 posts)
19. Or they're self-satisfied pricks who lord their religiosity over lesser folks.
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 11:12 AM
Apr 2022

I could say I'm a surgeon, but just saying it doesn't make it so.

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
23. History has very clearly shown us
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 11:20 AM
Apr 2022

that generally, Christians don't behave any better than non-Christians. The idea that "Christian" means "good person" is not only false, but it's pretty bigoted against non-Christians.

wryter2000

(46,051 posts)
34. Absolutely right
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 01:39 PM
Apr 2022

However, the other poster is also correct that what they espouse has pretty much nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth (or at least, what's ascribed to him). To be a Christian is by definition to be a follower of Jesus.

I honestly don't know what to call them except, maybe, faux Christians, or put "Christian" in quotation marks.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
12. The only entry requirement for being a Christian is identifying as a Christian
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 10:56 AM
Apr 2022

Ironically only one of the principal founding fathers identified as Christian in 1776, yet somehow the zealots would have you believe we are a "Christian nation".

Permanut

(5,612 posts)
15. They've hijacked the label..
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 10:57 AM
Apr 2022

Authoritarian fascist Talibangelical cult fanatics who think Jesus and Trump would have lunch together with Mike Lindell at the Chick-fil-A while Trump and pillow guy lectured Jesus about the "stolen" election.

If you can pretend that God is on your side, you can do just about anything.

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
17. I think in most cases, their faith is genuine.
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 11:04 AM
Apr 2022

That is certainly true of the millions of followers of these disgusting hateful right-wing preachers and politicians. Christianity really is defined by faith, not behavior, so if they believe they're Christians, then they're Christians.

mnhtnbb

(31,392 posts)
39. Their belief in themselves as righteous is true
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 04:44 PM
Apr 2022

but Jesus warned how to know about false prophets and followers that weren't genuine: it was about deeds and behavior. You will know them by their fruit.

https://www.gotquestions.org/you-will-know-them-by-their-fruit.html

The lesson Jesus taught has evolved into "watch what they do, not what they say".

summer_in_TX

(2,739 posts)
53. Jesus gave a simple test to know those who followed him.
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 11:40 PM
Apr 2022

By the Fruits of the Spirit you will know them: joy, peace, love, goodness, kindness, patience, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control.

I don't agree with you, not fully. Jesus told his followers to be discerning. Some aren't discerning and are fools. And he said there would be plenty who called his name but weren't his. They delude themselves – or worse, masquerade as Christians because it gives them something they want: respectability, access to power.

Matthew 7:15 and 21-23
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves…
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


From this verse, I'd say you could refer to true Christians and false ones. False Christians don't try to discern and follow God's will. They're working for their own benefit, mainly. And some are evil.


Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
10. Is there any time in history when this wasn't the case?
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 10:54 AM
Apr 2022

For most of Christian history the widely accepted method of cultural identity was burning or banishing people who refused to convert.

wnylib

(21,487 posts)
29. For most of human history,
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 12:43 PM
Apr 2022

religious, cultural, and political identities were intertwined, and nearly inseparable, beginning with tribal societies whose religious practices were experiential more than ideological.

Forced assimilation of conquered people included adoption of the conquerors' customs and laws, which inevitably meant religious conversion since religion was a cultural/political identity for unifying members of society.

Greeks installed images of emperor gods in the Jewish temple, sparking a Jewish revolt. Rome acknowledged Judaism as a tolerated religion (having observed what happened when the Greeks did not), but Jewish revolts against Roman rule brought severe punishments. Roman toleration of Judaism did not extend to early the Christian sect of Judaism when it became a separate religion of its own, which was based on a Jew who had been executed for treason.

Much earlier, Babylon tried to enforce suppression of the religious practices of its captive people, including Jews. Judaism picked up aspects of Babylonian religion from that period. The liberation of Jews by Persia to return to their homeland and reestablish their political/religious identity was an exception to forced conversion by a conqueror, but was politically expedient in gaining cooperation and forestalling rebellion. Judaism absorbed some of Persian Zoroastrianism during that period, including the Jewish messianic version of Zoroastrian end times beliefs.

Early Christians could escape persecution and have their other religious customs tolerated if they agreed to pay lip service to Rome by also celebrating sacrifices to Roman gods, but Christians refused because that violated their core beliefs.

Emperor Constantine, a "sort of" convert to Christianity, initiated the demand for a Christian orthodoxy to condemn other branches of Christianity as heretical in order to have a single cultural religion to unite his empire. The merging of Christianity with the politics of Rome carried into Roman conquered lands and remained with Christianity under Roman religious leaders and an established identity as a Roman religion when the words "Roman" and "civilization" were synonymous.

But in all periods in various religions, there have also been people whose focus on religion was spiritual and philosophical rather than political. That's the nature of human beings. Political leaders use religion for their own ends, and the common people split between political followers and the politically ambitious versus spiritual/philosophical followers of a religion.




Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
54. It was Jewish self-governance that led to the execution of Jesus
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 11:57 PM
Apr 2022

The Romans had little if anything to do with it and wrote nothing of Jesus during his lifetime which goes to show how little they cared about him as they wrote most everything else down.

For most of Roman history the Romans were quite tolerant of other religions so long as they didn’t threaten rule or order. Romans didn’t invent civilization. Many existed for centuries before and after all independent of Rome. It’s more fair to say that religion divides and oppresses people far more than civilizations or government has. Most attempts at secular governments were quickly overtaken by theocracies because of these divisions. If there was ever a time when Christians were genuinely oppressed, and arguably they never were, they quickly learned how to become oppressors.

That’s why I get a chuckle out of those who call these sorts of people non-Christian. If anything they are the epitome of Christianity.

wnylib

(21,487 posts)
59. I would have responded to your post sooner, but
Fri Apr 29, 2022, 06:38 AM
Apr 2022

on the day of your post I was busy preparing for a meeting at a local church where a woman who had just returned from Ukranian relief work in Poland and Ukraine was scheduled to speak about her ecperiences.

This was not at a Ukrainian church in the US. It was an Anglican church. She did not go to Ukraine and Poland to convert the people. She did not go to establish any political authority there. She went to take food, medicine, and protective equipment. She established a base in Poland, but went into Ukraine to deliver supplies to Ukrainian groups that could disperse them to where they are needed. While in Ukraine she picked up refugees to take back with her to Poland.

She was back in the States last week to touch base with her husband and daughter (her son went with her to Poland), and to raise funds and develop a network of local people to act as couriers and handle logistics from the US. She returned to Poland on Sunday with more supplies and will be going into a Ukrainian city where she once lived as a Peace Corps volunteer.

When asked if she was afraid going into Ukraine, she said that of course it is risky, but less so for a woman in her 60s than for a young man. But she felt that, with her foreign aid experience, she was obligated by her faith to volunteer. It would be worth the risk to try to make a difference in the world.

She has experience with aid work abroad in places like Ethiopia and the Middle East, as well as her stint in Ukraine with the Peace Corps. So she started raising funds for Ukraine on Facebook through her foreign contacts. When her Ukrainian contacts told her about their immediate, urgent need for protective vests for civilians turned fighters, she bought them out of her own money and arranged a flight to go in person. But by then she lacked cash to take with her. The church gave her a few thousand out of their relief funds. Relief funds come from the donations of church members, not to make the church rich, but to aid people in need.

Besides the Anglican church, other churches sending aid to Ukraine are Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist and several more. Besides Christian aid, there are Jewish and Islamic aid groups. Once there, they cooperate with each other. A Baptist group reimbursed this woman for the aid she had bought out of pocket.

Since last Thursday, I have been contacting various local people regarding fund raising and establishing a local backup team to support this woman's work. So I have not responded to your post until now.

I have read on this thread and others such nonsense as claims that churches only require people to believe something but not to do anything. I have read silly claims that churches exist only to make their members or leaders rich. There are some evangelical churches like that, but only lack of knowledge let's people apply that claim to all churches. In fact, I am often amazed at the authoritative statements about churches coming from people who do not know how they function or what they do. Or, who ascribe nefarious conspiracy theories to the motives of church sponsored aid.

Yet, those same people, if they ever did belong to a church (or other religious group) usually left it in their youth because they could not accept the beliefs and stories that religions are founded on. So they were not around long enough for them to speak with any real knowledge today of what else the churches do besides having weekly services. Rejecting personal belief in religious stories and theology is everyone's right. There are many religious people who reject the stories on a literal basis, too, but find enough meaning in religious spirituality to continue with their religion. But I see and hear people reject religious mythology as too unreal and then construct their own unreal myths about church activities and motives.

For example, you said that Jewish self government killed Jesus, not the Romans. How absurd. Jews did not use crucifixion. Only Romans did. If Jews turned Jesus over to the Romans, it was because they feared the activities of messianic leaders would bring Rome down on all the Jews - which, in fact, did happen later. As for no record of Jesus' execution in his lifetime, that's not at all unusual or surprising. How many other of the thousands of Roman executions do we have records for? Is it really even conceivable that every single record of every execution or other activity of Rome and its provinces would still be intact today?

If you actually do have any genuine interest in a historical, secular view of Jesus and how Christianity got established, I recommend an old PBS documentary titled "From Jesus to Christ." It takes a neutral, factual approach. It gives good historical background on Judea and Rome, tells what early Christians reported that they believed about Jesus, but also points out discrepancies in Gospel accounts and how early Christians dealt with their initial beliefs versus the real world realities of their lives. It ends with Constantine's conversion and the establishment of Christianity as the official Roman religion. If you are going to make claims about something, it is a good idea to know something about it first.






Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
60. It sounds as if you are reading more into statements so you can refute them
Fri Apr 29, 2022, 12:18 PM
Apr 2022
I have read on this thread and others such nonsense as claims that churches only require people to believe something but not to do anything.


Here I'll simply direct you to arguably the most quoted verse in all of Christianity, John 3:16 which says quite explicitly that the only entry fee for the conveniently unverifiable promise of infinite reward is to believe in something. So it's not really the people here who are making this claim, but rather the majority position of Christianity from a theological standpoint.

Now do I think that's all most congregations demand of their membership? Absolutely not. Religion is a tool of control and unless it's being used toward that end, there's really little point. Almost without exception all of organized religion seeks to control it's adherents. Where we differ is you seem to think there is almost exclusively benevolent motives for this control, where I see more nefarious motives which leads me into your next strawman rhetoric.

In fact, I am often amazed at the authoritative statements about churches coming from people who do not know how they function or what they do. Or, who ascribe nefarious conspiracy theories to the motives of church sponsored aid.


It's pretty much impossible to absolutely determine what anyone's motives are for anything. We can see what's going on in people's minds and make factual statements. So while you are free to describe a claim of nefarious motives as "conspiracy theories" the claim that purely benevolent motives exist is equally as conspiratorial. However, what we can do is follow the money and the money paints a very clear picture. First of all churches aren't required to report financial statements, so as far as "how they function or what they do" is really a very secretive matter because no church that I'm aware actually publishes those figures. We can also derive quite a bit with the reality that few if any churches are the least bit transparent in these matters. At least in the US and pretty much everywhere else in the world, churches operate under very special tax rules which only require them to comply with qualification of a religious entity and so long as they do not grossly violate prohibited activities they are free to do as they wish with the monies they collect. No other charitable entities that I'm aware enjoy such freedom from regulation. What should not be a point of contention is pretty much all churches have tremendous overhead compared to the vast majority of other charitable entities.

I have read silly claims that churches exist only to make their members or leaders rich.


I'd be surprised to see if anyone has actually made that claim here as I haven't seen it and I've been around here a few more years than you. I would never make this claim which you seem to imply I did since you directed it at me. What I will say is that it's pretty much impossible to ignore that some churches most certainly exist exclusively to make their leaders rich and any church that collects money has an obvious and significant corrupting influence.

For example, you said that Jewish self government killed Jesus, not the Romans. How absurd. Jews did not use crucifixion.


Kinda like saying because the Jews didn't nail Jesus to the cross, they weren't responsible for the outcome, which is most definitely absurd. The Jews had the power of self-governance, but they lacked the standing army the Romans had for carrying out death sentences. Certainly their traditional method of execution was stoning, but under Roman rule this really wasn't an option so it shouldn't be at all surprising the Romans would be performing the actual act of execution using their own traditional methods.

If you actually do have any genuine interest in a historical, secular view of Jesus and how Christianity got established, I recommend an old PBS documentary titled "From Jesus to Christ." It takes a neutral, factual approach. It gives good historical background on Judea and Rome, tells what early Christians reported that they believed about Jesus, but also points out discrepancies in Gospel accounts and how early Christians dealt with their initial beliefs versus the real world realities of their lives. It ends with Constantine's conversion and the establishment of Christianity as the official Roman religion. If you are going to make claims about something, it is a good idea to know something about it first.


I take this response to be more than a little condescending. You are implying I don't have a genuine interest in a "historical, secular view of Jesus and how Christianity got established." As evidence you provide a one sided source of information that is far from comprehensive. I can provide a number of sources that establish my assertions, but clearly you have no interest in even inquiring if they exist. I find that approach more than a little arrogant at best and willfully ignorant at worst. I suggest taking a more open minded approach free from the assumption everyone else who disagrees with you is ignorant and wrong.

As you say it's a good idea to know something about the subject you are speaking to first. The self-described "apostle", Paul (who never actually met Jesus), arguably had more to do with the foundation of Christianity than Jesus himself. He managed to pull this off by recruiting the more affluent Greeks and Romans. The sticky point here is Jewish law has a circumcision requirement which Paul abolished with the conveniently unverifiable claim that a holy poltergeist whispered into his ear and instructed him to do so. It should be obvious to even the most casual observer of Christian history there was a clear profit motive from the very beginning. If your one-sided source doesn't have at least some mention of this, I can't imagine it paints a very clear picture of what was really going on at the time.

wnylib

(21,487 posts)
61. The role of Paul as the founder of
Fri Apr 29, 2022, 07:49 PM
Apr 2022

Christianity is all covered in the documentary that I recommended, including thecisdue of circumcision, which is also mentioned in the book of Acts. The spread of the Jesus messianic movement outside of Judaism altered the original theology and added Greek religious beliefs to the early Christian movement. In anthropology, that is called cultural or religious syncretism or synthesis.

Why would you say that the documentary that I suggested is biased? It was not produced by any religious organization. Its focus is a history of Christianity. It is not focused on promoting Christian views. It freely notes discrepancies between history and theology.

Regarding the so called secrecy of church funds and whether or not their financial records are ever published, I have seen the financial publications in more than one Christian denomination. I grew up in the Lutheran Church. My father was on the congregation's elected Council for many years, and was treasurer for part of that time. The church held an annual business meeting before open to the congregation in which it gave out a publication of its budget, how much was taken in through weekly donations, whether they met a previously established goal, how much over or under they were. They also made public other sources like endowments, the costs of building maintenance, church employees (pastor, organist, janitor). In that church, a lot of the maintenance was done by volunteer members of the church, like painting and cleaning.

I have seen the same kinds of open financial business meetings and published financial records in an Episcopal church that I attended but did not join, and in the Presbyterian church that I am currently a member of.

The members are free to take their copies of the financial reports home and share them with anyone. I don't know personally of any requests from outsiders to see those financial reports, but since they are not secret, I think they would probably be shared if anyone requested it.

Church hierarchies (above the congregational level) have numerous projects that they sponsor and finance. The National level Presbyterian, Episcopal, and Lutheran churches have immigration programs, disaster relief programs, and social justice programs that operate within the US and internationally. They have employees who coordinate funds and efforts with vetted local people and groups where aid is needed. They have to comply with national and international laws in their work, so they also have attorneys. Because they have large funds that they deal with, they have accountants. They also have auditors.

Sorry if I sound condescending, but I have personal experience with churches that many critics lack. I get tired of suppositions that have no factual foundations in how churches operate. Also, I minored in cultural anthropology, which included studies of tribal religions as well as several (but not all) larger bodies of world religions. One course (from the History department) was a comparative study of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, with separate research papers on each faith. In addition to written sources, I used interviews with clergy of the faiths covered. I learned a lot from a rabbi's own library about the origins of the messianic movement in Judaism (from Zoroastrianism during the Persian rule of Judea). I have an anthropological perspective on religion in general, and a personal interest in the spiritual aspects of religions.

I certainly do not think that all churches are benevolent in all things. The Orthodox Russian church leader is appalling. There are several evangelical pastors and congregations that I would describe as evil in their bigotry, racism, and political corruption. The Catholic Church's issues of sexual abuse are appalling, as is its history with Native Americans.

As someone with Native ancestry from my paternal grandmother, I am more aware of the details of abusive boarding schools run by churches, and not just the Catholic Church, than most Americans. One of grandma's Native ancestors was a man called Handsome Lake, considered a (non Christian) prophet by the Seneca people. He developed a renovation of Seneca religion after the American Revolution left the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) in shambles. He was strongly anti Christian, but his half brother, the war chief Cornplanter, invited Quakers and other missionaries to help the Seneca adapt to European American customs. Some of the Seneca intermarried with those white people and adopted their religion. Others did not.

Regarding Jews and turning over Jesus to Roman authorities, it is not surprising. Judea was a hotbed of messianic fervor at the time of Jesus. Beliefs among messianists ranged from expecting a miraculous intervention by God to place a messiah ("annointed one&quot as ruler over Judea to those who expected that an army of Judean soldiers would overthrow Rome.

That was not such a farfetched notion for Jews. The Maccabees had overthrown Greek rule and achieved brief independence before the Roman takeover. Jewish leaders, who were the priestly hierarchy, tried to maintain a balance between Jewish identity and Roman rule. Jews were not the only people agitating for revolt against Rome. Roman response to any hint of revolt anywhere was brutal. The Jewish historian of the period, Josephus, recorded that dozens of would be messiahs sprang up in Judea and were executed by Rome. A messianic leader with a following could raise an army, in which case Rome would not just execute the self proclaimed messiah, but would brutally attack towns and civilians to reinforce their power and authority. To prevent that, the priests were willing to turn messianists over to Rome.

Religions are a means of social control by setting social and individual rules and models for their members. That is one of the religion functions outlined in anthropology. Another function is to give commonly shared values through stories and customs that unite people as a society. Within those values are models and paths of spiritual growth and development. When authoritarian rulers combine religions and politics, which was the usual case for much of human history, they gain absolute power over people. But there have always been factions of populations who did not believe the religions. Atheism is not new to the modern world. Many of the political absolutists did not believe, either, and used religion to exert "divine" authority over society, as Roman emperors did. The Romans tolerated worship of other gods and other religious practices, but required also that their subjects make sacrifices to Roman gods on specific occasions. Those who refused were severely punished.

There have also always been a faction of people in societies who took the values of religious beliefs seriously as spiritual growth paths and tried to live up to professed values. Kinda like the US has not always lived up to the professed values of the D of I and the Constitution and still doesn't. But those values exist as ideals for people to promote and follow. They are now seriously threatened by a menacing merger of religious and political extremism. Some of our best leaders in combating this threat are themselves religious people - Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, Adam Schiff, Chuck Schumer, Senator Warnock of Georgia, and the local volunteer in my town who is inspired by her faith to deliver aid to Ukrainians, backed by a religious community. Why throw out the baby with the bath?

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
62. I didn't say it was biased, although it almost certainly is to some degree
Fri Apr 29, 2022, 11:44 PM
Apr 2022

I said it was one-sided, which it is. Most documentaries and non-fiction works are one sided. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it just means it's presenting the point of view of those responsible for production without critical review or response. What it does mean is you are only getting that one point of view. Whenever someone says you need to read or watch X in order to become informed about anything, it really just demonstrates to me they are only interested in limited points of view that almost certainly support whatever notions they already have or have recently gained. What I find is generally the case with such people is they have just recently acquired this knowledge and based on their newly found enthusiasm regarding it they feel as if now they are well informed on the subject. Now maybe that doesn't apply to you, but it just appears that way based on your response so that's purely my own speculation. I haven't watched the program you are suggesting, but given the synopsis it appears as if it covers the history of Jesus and while given the source I'm sure it's quite informative, but it's also far from the only material available on the subject.

It's important to remember much of the history of Jesus involves quite a bit of speculation regardless of where it comes from. There just isn't that much to draw from. We have a good idea of what the area was like during that time, the political and religious climate at the time, and the significant historical events. However what we don't have are any first person accounts of Jesus simply because nobody was writing anything down about him at the time. So while it's true what you are saying there were probably untold numbers of people executed by the Romans we know nothing about, it does tell us a couple of things. The Romans were actually very good at writing things down which is why we know as much about them as we do. The fact there's virtually no historical record of him strongly suggests he was very much an insignificant figure during his lifetime. The fact that most of what we have written down about him came decades if not generations after his death means we can assume most of it is somewhere between pure mythology and grossly inaccurate. We can reasonably assume Jesus existed and was executed. Beyond that it's almost all educated speculation at best.

As far as bias goes, it's extremely difficult to find anything about Jesus which isn't biased. On one hand you have the religionists who are most certainly propagating the mythology to one extent or another and on the secular side you have people who are afraid of publishing completely honest intellectual opinions out of the fear of drawing too much ire from zealots. Of the two groups some of the most honest intellectual commentary on the subject comes from the religious side as there are a few liberal Christian theologians who aren't afraid of entertaining the subject of the sexual orientation of Jesus and his apostles. Breach that subject on the secular side or from other faiths and the Christian zealots gather the pitchfork and torches. PBS is far from immune from those influences.

I'm well aware that Jesus wasn't the only person at the time with messianic claims and what generally happened to such people. My view is he was no more and certainly less exceptional than others during his own time. His legend grew after his death and without Paul I suspect Jesus would be nothing more than a footnote in history if that. As such as far as the history of Christianity goes, it's much more significant and meaningful to examine Paul simply for these reasons and because we know a lot more about him.

Within those values are models and paths of spiritual growth and development.
Spiritual growth and development is really just a more polite term for propagating mythology and metaphysical ideas. I see it as more of a conscious departure from reason and a poor substitute for philosophy. I see little value in ideas that are by nature immune from critical challenge as they are the antithesis to progress. YMMV. As far as why we should throw out the baby with the bathwater, the reason is because there really is no baby. As far as the people you mention who are allegedly people of faith, perhaps they are and perhaps they aren't. Imagine how far a professed atheist politician would get. Certainly not to the positions you mentioned at least in the US. As far as your assertion that atheism has always existed, I would certainly agree, but it's worth pointing out that the word didn't even exist until relatively recently and even now there's considerable debate on what it actually means today. Rather than imagining what's possible by injecting superstition into public policy as has almost always been exclusively the case everywhere, I prefer to imagine what's possible if it were removed.

wnylib

(21,487 posts)
63. Sigh. Nearly every point you bring up
Mon May 2, 2022, 04:29 AM
May 2022

is discussed in the documentary. Jesus was an obscure Jewish preacher with only a small following in only one region of Judea. Nothing historical is written by him or by anyone from his lifetime. All that we have are the accumulated legends told by and among his followers until they were written down decades after his execution by Rome. Yet, the messianic movement of his followers survived while others of the period did not. Without Paul preaching it to Jewish communities scattered throughout the Empire outside of Judea, it would not have survived. Without the later reinterpretations of that movement by non Jews that Paul accepted into the movement, it would not have evolved into a world religion. Most of what we have is speculation. None of this is news to me or to the documentary.

I totally agree with you that most historical examinations of the origins of Christianity shy away from any direct statements that would upset Christians because of the anticipated reactions. That's why I like this documentary.
It compares what can be known as fact against what is merely belief and legend. It disputes many parts of the legends and traces how some of them started and the historical context for how and why various legends and interpretations developed.

For comparisons, it uses the historical records of documented people in the legends, e.g. Herod, Caesar Augustus, John the Baptist, Pontius Pilot and how much the legends fit or do not fit what is known about them. No record, for example, of a census under Augustus that would require Nazareans to travel to Bethlehem. The documentary is honest about factual info versus legend and theology.

You discount it as a source about the origins of a religion based on your assumption of what it "probably" says. Here is the synopsis from PBS.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/etc/synopsis.html

If you read the reviews of the DVD at Amazon, you might feel less negative about the series since the reviewers are split between those who denounced it as secular and untrue versus those who found it enlightening about how a Jewish man became deified by non Jews.


Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
65. I don't have a negative view of the series
Tue May 3, 2022, 11:27 AM
May 2022

The fact that it's published by PBS almost certainly means it's of high quality. However, regardless nothing about him can be taken as factual which you suggest, even his own existence. For all we know he could have been entirely made up and there are biblical historians (albeit the minority) who have suggested as much.

There are those who claim Jesus said or did this or that. In doing so they are just trying to pass off speculation as fact whether or not they realize it. Everything he said or did is 4th person and decades after the fact at best by the time it made it to written form.

What's more important than realizing much of the story is demonstrably false is asking why someone lied about it to begin with. The Bethlehem account is a vital part of Jesus' story because it establishes his messianic claim. An educated reading of the canonical gospels reveals Jesus never claimed to be a god, only the messiah. Pretty much all of his messianic claims fall apart on close examination and not just the Bethlehem part. Even if you were to assume Jesus was the messiah, this means he could not be a god as the Jews considered those two things very different. Had Jesus claimed to be a god during his time, he almost certainly would have been executed sooner than he was as this would be a blatant violation of idolatry laws and would have been view even less favorably than a false messiah. There's really no reason to even consider him as the messiah. Even most Jews of his time rejected as much.

The idea of Jesus as a deity came much later, and even some Christian denominations to this day reject it. That whole idea came from early Christian theology perpetuated by the Catholic and later Protestant church. There's no hard biblical evidence for it.

The reality almost certainly is Jesus was little more than a streetcorner preacher who enjoyed a bit of success during his lifetime, but his legend and surrounding mythology grew much larger.

wnylib

(21,487 posts)
64. Regarding your view that
Mon May 2, 2022, 05:42 AM
May 2022
"Spiritual growth and development is really just a more polite term for propagating mythology and metaphysical ideas."


A dictionary definition of spiritual does include concepts soul, religion, sacredness, and a divinity or at least of "something" greater than oneself. For me and for many people in popular usage, it is looser and more generally means non physical, as in personal growth in values and character. That would be a person's growth as both an individual and in relating socially to others.

In comparative mythology, from an anthropological perspective, a myth is a story or legend, often about a people's early history, that reflects a value system and/or cosmological view or explanation. It does not have to be literally true because it is the meaning illustrated in the stories, like the lessons of fables, that matter. Therefore, all religions are mythologies.

The rituals, songs, holidays, poetry, dances, and dramatizations of the mythology serve as expressions of the stories and their values, as shared social experiences, and as cultural traditions, passed on and often expanded on with offshoot stories about the characters in the myths.

Or, as Tevia says in Fiddler on the Roof, "Tradition!"

But traditions and meanings in mythologies also change with time. New experiences, new encounters with other cultures, and even with new knowledge, e.g. science, cause religions to evolve in their perspectives. Don't scoff at the notion that religions acknowledge scientific information. There are many religious institutions involved in scientific research and teaching. I remember an adult fellowship group at a church in which a biology professor explained the scientific principles of evolution.

So, for me (and for many people who remain within the framework of a religious group), I enjoy the discussions of ethics, moral and social values, social activism, holiday traditions, and even the rituals and ceremonies that symbolize the meanings within the myths.

I do not expect everyone to follow or accept my religious views, or any religious views. It is a matter of individual choice and inclination. It is not necessary to be religious to have ethics and values. I did well in philosophy studies, but often found them too dry. They are good at teaching logical reasoning, but so is geometry (which I liked much more than philosophy).

Different strokes for different folks.



Caliman73

(11,738 posts)
28. No true Scotsman fallacy.
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 12:35 PM
Apr 2022

Perhaps they are just bad people, but if they say they are Christian and practice a faith associated with Christianity, then they are Christians.


This is the problem with religion, the Bible, etc... that it is so open to interpretation, that you can believe contradictory ideas and still claim to be practicing the same faith tradition.

ck4829

(35,077 posts)
56. How of "no true Scotsman" getting invoked is itself the fallacy fallacy?
Fri Apr 22, 2022, 07:53 AM
Apr 2022

It is entirely possible to make a claim that is false yet argue with logical coherency for that claim, just as it is possible to make a claim that is true and justify it with various fallacies and poor arguments.

Example: Recognising that Amanda had committed a fallacy in arguing that we should eat healthy food because a nutritionist said it was popular, Alyse said we should therefore eat bacon double cheeseburgers every day.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy

NullTuples

(6,017 posts)
43. Christian is as Christian does; there is no test that all Christian denominations agree to
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 05:00 PM
Apr 2022

That's the lovely thing about "sincere belief" religion; each sect gets to make up its own rules and its own definition of "Christian".
And each will say theirs is the One True Religion which makes all the others wrong.

Emile

(22,789 posts)
6. You would think if they are banning books for profanity, etc, the bible
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 10:36 AM
Apr 2022

would be at the top of the list.

Caliman73

(11,738 posts)
30. Bible also says this...
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 12:44 PM
Apr 2022

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."


and this...


“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. ..."

It isn't all love and happiness, even the New Testament.

IronLionZion

(45,457 posts)
33. They love smiting and wrath
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 01:32 PM
Apr 2022

but nothing about healing the sick, helping the poor, forgiving sinners, or throwing the money changers out of the temple.

Response to TomSlick (Reply #44)

Aussie105

(5,401 posts)
45. The 'good' thing about the Bible
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 06:10 PM
Apr 2022

is that with a bit of selective reading, you can justify any prejudice you already have, from being nice to a homeless man and giving him money for food, or smiting your neighbour.

The ones to watch out for are people who never open the Bible, and just use it to hit you over the head.
The 'I am right because the Bible says so' people. 'I have my authority right from the Bible!' . . . . . as if!

But using an ancient religious text to justify death and destruction, should never be acceptable.

Pssssst . . . don't tell the bible bashers Jesus wasn't white, didn't speak English US style, didn't have long blonde hair or white flowing robes, and wasn't a Christian! Or that their Jesus is a figment of their imagination.






XacerbatedDem

(511 posts)
58. And then there's the Catholic version.
Fri Apr 22, 2022, 09:16 AM
Apr 2022

I was raised Catholic throughout my childhood and was forced to go to confession on a regular basis. I was told if you don't confess your sins and do penance, then you would go to hell.

But...

There's was a way around it, if you didn't want to confess your sins to a priest. It's called The Act of Contrition: a simple prayer that if you recited it right before you died, then you were guaranteed entry into heaven, no matter how you had lived your life. It goes like this:

"O my God, I am most heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins, because I dread the loss of Heaven and the pains of hell, but most of all because they have offend Thee, my God, Who art all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve with the help of Thy grace to confess my sins, to do penance, and to amend my life. Amen."

The implication was that you could sin all you want, right up until the moment before you died, then all you had to do is say that prayer and all was forgiven.

There was a catch, though: having enough time to say it. If you died before finishing it, or thought about saying it but didn't get the chance before you died, well, too late. Maybe, you might make it to Purgatory, but that was a long shot.

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