General Discussion
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It may be a species of impudence to think that the way you understand God is the way God is.
― Joseph Campbell, Thou Art That: Transforming Religious Metaphor
Speaking of the increase of "christian nationalism" in our country, and with Dylan's "Watching the River Flow" in mind, I'd like to attemp a "threat evaluation" as we head into both the mid-term elections and the likely criminal prosecution of Donald J. Trump. For we are heading into uncharted territory, and need to cross this river to get back to a place where there is democracy and the rule of law.
We've all seen film of unfortunate examples of someone attempting to drive across a flooded stream when a hard rai has fallen, only to get stuck. Those most familiar with the natural world recognize it is impossible to find safe crossing when a river has overflowed its banks. For it is safer -- though not necessarily "safe" -- to cross it before it crests. And that is where we are at now.
We sense the gathering storm. In some ways, it appears like other storms we have either witnessed, or learned about in human history. In early April of this year, Samuel Perry and Jemar Tisby published the book, "The Flag + the Cross: White Christian Nationalism and the Threat to American Democracy." It is perhaps the most accurate forecast available to us at this time.
That the Trump cult views Donald as a religious figure brings to mind what Campbell was speaking of. They are convinced that they are now in a holy war, with God on their side. That "god," of course, is the group's combined projection of their self-righteousness. We see this in their portraits of a white Jesus. And we saw it on January 6, with Trump flags, conderate flags, "Don't Tread on Me" flags, christian flags, and the prayer to their imaginary Jesus in the Senate chambers.
When a group of people are convinced that they are in a holy war, with God on their side, it is much like a bend in a flloding river. While the surface water at the edge of the outside of the bend often appears the calmest, it is actualy where the undertows are strongest. But, before we consider what constitutes both sides of this bend, there is one more issue to consider.
Polls indicate that a growing number of people find the threats to democracy to be the most important issue facing our country at this time. This includes many who think we are approaching -- if not already in -- a civil war. Likewise, there are those who think a civil war is unlikely, either because it is not a fully geographic divide, or because the white christian nationalist Trump cult could not win such a war. That their forces are too small.
It is always risky to attempt to apply rational thinking to the motivations of those who are convinced they are engaged in a holy war. More, it would be an error in thinking to limit the concept of "civil war" to the north versus south experience in our nation's past. The proper model would be much more like "the Troubles" in Ireland. For that matter, the Ku Klux Klan was a white christian nationalist outfit, not unlike the cult members involved in the January 6 insurrection.
We know the Grand Lizard of the current members. We know he lit the fuse to set off the January 6 powder keg. And we see that there are two current powder kegs that he will attempt to set off if the DOJ and the Georgia criminal investigations lead to his being indicted. On the surface, the potential federal case may appear larger than the Georgia case, in terms of a powder keg. But I think otherwise.
Republicans in office would be less likely to support Trump if the document case continues to uncover what is the worst case scenario. Some will, of course. Maybe many. Either way, it would fracture their party. Fewer republican voters would be okay with Trump sharing classified intelligence with Russia, for example. But almost, if not all, will stick with Trump if he is indicted in Georgia.
If he is indicted by the DOJ, the task of bringing him to court --after attempts to delay -- than if he is charged in Georgis, while living in Florida. The role of governors may be important. Is DeSantis going to have his state cooperate with officials in Georgia? If Kemp wins the election in Georgia, might he pardon Trump? And what will the maga response be if Stacey Abrams becomes governor when Trump is tried? Isn't a state court a softer target than a federal court?
There are a lot of very important elections this November.
kentuck
(111,092 posts)...let us cross to the side of democracy and the rule of law.
H2O Man
(73,537 posts)I'm encouraged that we are heading in the right direction. That includes the direction the November elections are heading. And it certainly includes the way that institutions not only held up through the Trump years, but appear to be functioning now. The DOJ and Georgia investigations seem hopeful. And the J6 Committee has done a great job thus far, and will continue to.
kentuck
(111,092 posts)What direction do the American people want to go?
The information we are now confronting is very disturbing. I cannot permit myself to feel secure so long as Donald Trump is calling the shots for the Republicans. It is a dangerous moment for our nation.
Trump is definitely a danger to society. And there are a lot of people like DeSantis, who also pose threats. We are in a heck of a struggle. No doubt about that. We need to crush them politically and socially. It is a long-term conflict.
kentuck
(111,092 posts)...about riots and turmoil. He doesn't need an indictment or an arrest to incite violence. He will do it either way.
He would start riots and turmoil whether or not hes indicted or arrested.
So lets indict and arrest him.
H2O Man
(73,537 posts)will be primed to go if a black woman indicts and prosecutes him. It would fit the white christian nationalists' theory of a threat to their being.
AbnerBunny
(1,451 posts)As an aside, I am a wonderful sleeper. I get into bed, fall asleep within five minutes, and-left uninterrupted-wake up eight hours later. But not so much recently. Maybe age, but I think mostly stress from political events. I miss sleeping well.
H2O Man
(73,537 posts)I normally don't require a lot of sleep. But current events have disrupted my sleep patterns, without question. I was up until 5 am last night/this morning. I'm hoping to catch up a bit tonight, though watching the news must come first! Followed by laying there, thinking about it.
Beetwasher.
(2,971 posts)Man that aint oil thats blood
I wonder what he was thinking when he hit that storm
or was he just lost in the flood?
H2O Man
(73,537 posts)It's a good day to listen to Bruce, and also Neil, along with Bob.
Hekate
(90,674 posts)
awakening of important parts of the media concerning revelations of what the FBI found at Mar A Lago.
Fingers crossed for our future.
H2O Man
(73,537 posts)that any time could even approach 1968 for strange and often out of control.
Just as most major media have connections with "retired" generals, they've had people from the Intelligence Community as, at the very least, guest commentators. People of our generatio remember Carl Bernstein reporting on this in the 1970s. These men and women know how much of a threat Trump was as president, and is as ex-president. Their psyvhologists have done on-going "personality assessments" -- similar to Dr. Bandy Lee's.
The threats against the FBI, complete with the attack on them in Ohio, will end up working against the magga cult in ways they haven't anticipated. Cut the heads off the various snakes, and harvest their leadership .... legally, of course. Rule of law.
bigtree
(85,996 posts)...needs a warring counterpart to make it something other than just criminals criming.
Right now it's these idiots battling against law enforcement in defense of lawnessness that most Americans abhor. The elections are shaping up as a referendum against the criming criminal party. As you note, that's where the real battle lies.
If the maga crowd thinks they will do well in a war against, say, the FBI, we will save the time and money it takes to try them in court.
I had a phone call today with a friend who is politically active. A good union man. He said he is starting to feel better about the November elections. He asked if I was? I reminded him that I had started working on campaigns of members of the Democratic Party in January, and have been confident since then. When good people, from the grass roots to DC, stand up for democracy and the rule of law, we are a powerful force.
malaise
(268,980 posts)The STATE!
We know that since General Flynn hooked up with Trump, he has been coordinating with the militia groups. He wants to lead the troops in the revolution that rages between his ears. I want to see him convicted and incarcerated!
Saoirse9
(3,676 posts)Of crossing that river I cant function.
I have to believe reason will prevail.
We beat Hitler. We can beat this far less intelligent version of him. And his followers.
H2O Man
(73,537 posts)part of the struggle -- calming the mind calms the waters around us.
As horrible as January 6 was, one good aspect is the maga militia showed itself capable of a limited number of successful tactics.