Regarding age, health and suicide

[Cyrano]

(I recently lost a close friend who opted for hospice rather than spending a year or two battling an incurable disease. One day she seemed fine. A month later, she was gone. "Leaving" quickly was her own choice. That’s part of the reason for this post.)

I hang out with people who are mostly in their 50s and 60s. One of them, (let’s call him Sal), is in his 80s. Sal seems to be physically healthy for his age, and there’s no outward sign of mental deterioration.

Anytime someone asks, “How you feelin’, Sal?” his usual answer is, “Not ready to check out yet.” All of us know that Sal has a bottom line about life: “When I can’t take care of myself anymore, I’m leavin'.”

(Sal's not the only one I know who feels this way. Quality of life, and what to do about it, seems to be an issue that many have in common.)

So, what I'm getting at here is suicide. Some argue against it on religious grounds. Some argue against it because “medicine has advanced so far.” And others agree that when quality of life permanently falls below a point that only you can set, “checking out” is a sensible, humane option.

My feelings about “checking out,” are simlar to those held by Sal. (Easy enough to say, when you’re not there yet.) Nonetheless, I’d like to hear any thoughts you’re willing to share on this subject.

[peppertree]

1. I'm with Sal

Life's not "a miracle", "precious" or anything of the kind. It's a circumstance - neither good nor bad in itself.

Not unlike "I live in Ohio."

The day may come that, for whatever reason, it become inviable for you to live in Ohio - or wherever. So you take a deep breath, make your arrangements, and move.

That's how I see it anyway. I do admire people who see more in it than that.

Thanks for posting this, Cyrano. Definitely worth thinking about.

[CrispyQ]

2. Our everything-for-profit system won't allow us a kind, compassionate way out of a terminal disease.

Once they get your life savings they'll see if maybe your kids or someone else will spring for your treatments. I would opt for the quick way out rather than hand my savings over to some health insurance company & leave my spouse with unpaid bills.

[peppertree]

4. Plus, human pettiness

A lot of people, I've come to suspect, derive a perverse glee from knowing that someone else is suffering - but with no realistic way out.

These, of course, are usually the same people who are dead-set against abortion rights. "You screwed; you're screwed," they privately (sometimes publicly) gloat.

[CrispyQ]

7. Oh yes. Some of the meanest are the most self-righteous. -nt

[Wounded Bear]

3. Have to admit, I lean with Sal as well...

I often use the line "Any day vertical is a good day" as a greeting.

I don't really have any family that could take care of me if I was reduced to dependence. Quality of life is more important to me than quantity of life.

Of course, at 69 I'm not there yet.

[peppertree]

5. +1

May you have decades ahead of you of good, quality life.

But if not, God forbid, then it's good to have a way out.

[Ms. Toad]

6. People should, at a minimum, think carefully about the end of their lives -

And share those thoughts with those who may ultimately be called on to make decisions.

My parents are 90. My mother wants absolutely no intervention (not even food and hydration) if her body is present - but her mind/soul no longer is. My father wants more aggressive measures - if there's a chance he will come back and be able to play in the dirt, he wants that chance. I am listed as first (with my father) on my mother's end of life documents because my mother is afraid my father will not be able to allow her to go.

In the retirement community in which they live, a number of people have chosen to just stopped eating - apparently a not unpleasant way to die. They (the community) are big on palliative care - everyone with a significant illness should be offered palliative care (which focuses on the person's comfort - and can be used in conjunction with continued efforts to extend life).

As for suicide - certainly at the end of life, when the remaining time will be very low quality, an easy way to check out early should be available.

I worry, however, about people like my mother. She skipped her brother's funeral in July because she didn't want to burden anyone. She's not that much of a burden. As an example, she feels guilty when I come to visit if she doesn't personally prepare food for me. That's her assessment of what is a burden. I wouldn't want to subtly encourage suicide for people whose personal quality of life is decent - but who want to check out to avoid burdening others. I'm not sure how to set up reasonable procedures that aren't a barrier for those who really are ready to die, while encouraging people to live if their reason for checking out is based on what they think others feel about caring for them.

[bucolic_frolic]

8. Psychology as usual is failing this subject

Last edited Fri Sep 2, 2022, 04:33 PM - Edit history (1)

They're so busy learning the thought modeling of other psychologists they can't think it out on their own.

Pain is a criteria. When is life painful. Fear is a criteria. When fear of going forward wraps its head around someone, their perspective is not to be disregarded.

We can only perpetuate life so long. Conning us by telling us everything is fine because our doctors say so is not medicine. It's emotional fraud. Life is not ok and returning to normal because we take drugs with horrible side effects and can watch the latest frivolity from Hollywood.

We're not taught to maximize the quality of our lives. We're taught to consume so others can profit. We only have so much time, but don't realize it until the last 1/4 of life. What we could accomplish with that information at age 25.

[Cyrano]

18. "What we could accomplish with that information at age 25."

Wow, what a thought, bucolic_frolic. Very few dwell on the brevity of life at that age. But if we did, I wonder if, and how much, that awareness might change the world.

[Trailrider1951]

9. I'll be ready to check out when I cannot take care of myself, and

when I'm bleeding my children's finances dry. Nope, not going to go there. Their money is for them and their children and grandchildren. I'm now nearly 71. If I have another 10 years or so, I'll be extremely happy. If I have another year or two, I'll be OK with that.

[in2herbs]

10. AZ has a state document that allows someone to pre-plan their suicide if/when

a person is in the advanced stage of alzheimers. As documented by their doctor, the document allows the individual or the person in charge of their medical decisions, to go into hospice and hospice is not allowed to feed, hydrate or medicate the person.

This document is separate from the Medical Directive forms offered by the AG.

[Cyrano]

23. Starving to death is one of the most horrible ways to die.

AZ's document, that doesn't allow hospice to medicate a person, (end it quickly with morphine), is something out of the dark ages that one could only wish on the politicians who passed such an insane law. And, of course, I'm not just talking about Alzheimer's.

Too much of this country is run by politicians, (and those who own them), who are living in centuries that are dead and gone. And, it seems to me, that too many of them enjoy the suffering of anyone with sympathy/empathy/humanity.

[Midnight Writer]

11. When I was young, I had a friend who saved all the pain pills she was prescribed.

If she had dental work done, minor surgery, any procedure that involved taking pain medicine, she would wrap those pills in plastic wrap and keep them in a jar in her refrigerator.

Her plan was, that if she got to the point she couldn't go on, to open a bottle of wine, settle into a comfortable chair, take all those pills, and pass away in her sleep.

At the time, I thought that was extreme. Now that I'm "that age", I understand.

I've seen so many friends and family pass on, but the ones that are hardest to watch are the ones in pain, the ones that are hooked up to machines with tubes down their throats, the ones who spend their last days in misery and fear, in the care of strangers.

I think it is reasonable to look at options when facing your last days. I have seen people do very well in hospice care, and some amazing, wonderful people providing that service, but the availability of hospice care in my area is limited. They are just now raising funds for a hospice care center near me, but even that will not fully meet the need.

If I am in a situation where there is no hope, no cure, no possibility of recovery, and the prospect of a slow, painful end, then I will certainly consider my options. I'd rather spend my last days treasuring them, rather than spending them in doctor's offices, in hospitals, having hopeless procedures performed on my body.

That's just me. I'm not a fighter. I've chosen an easy life, and I'd like to ease out of this world with as little pain and drama as possible. I do it for my pets, as a mercy, and I'd like the option to do it for myself.

[multigraincracker]

19. Been thinking about putting away a couple of tanks

of helium for an easy exit. The painless way to go.

[2naSalit]

20. That's what...

My sibling did, one of them. They were not prepared to keep on going and decided to go that route only they didn't go right away, was discovered and a major drama ensued. There were also pets involved, not a good ending. They were very distraught for a long time, nobody could help.

I have directed several people to make sure I don't end up on life support machines. If I become incapacitated, pull the plug and do whatever to hasten my exit. I just don't want it to take a long time and I hope I am not scared at the time. I'm not afraid to go at all, I just don't want to leave in a scary situation.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

12. Does Sal have a plan, or does he just say that?

[Elessar Zappa]

13. I believe everyone has the right to end their life.

We each own our own body.

[genxlib]

14. Coincidentally, My wife and I had this conversation just last night

Both of my parents are in their 80s and Covid has entered their home. Naturally, it brings up conversations about mortality and such.

My position has always been this..."I want to live as long as I can live well and not a day longer"

Being kept alive with no actual quality of life is not a mercy. Whether it be pain, cognitive decline, incapacitation or whatever, I just don't want to "live" that way.

It would make me feel even worse if I was a financial and physical burden to my loved ones in the process.

[keithbvadu2]

15. Some folks don't necessarily want to die but just don't care about living any longer.

Some folks don't necessarily want to die but just don't care about living any longer.

My grandmother starved herself to death.

She told my mother that she didn't think it would take so long.

My grandfather died about three weeks later.

No serious problems. No starvation.

I think he just didn't want to go on.

[TheProle]

16. Camus:

“There is but one truly serious philosophical problem and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy. All the rest — whether or not the world has three dimensions, whether the mind has nine or twelve categories — comes afterwards. These are games; one must first answer.”

[GoodRaisin]

17. Death sometimes has it's advantages over keeping on living.

When that happens we should be able to opt for it, in a painless and dignified way. I view it as something that should be a personal freedom to choose.

[peggysue2]

21. Think the quality life factor is huge in longevity

As my mother began to fail over her last year or two, she had lost the ability to do what she loved--painting, sculpting, everything involved with the arts. It was her center, her balance point. Once deprived of that, she was diagnosed with 'failure to thrive'. She was no longer interested in eating or conversing or anything.

One night, she got up from bed and either fell and broke her hip or she got up, her hip broke and she subsequently fell. The doctor called for permission to do hip surgery. I hesitated, wanted to know whether her heart was strong enough for the procedure. He said it was and that without surgery she'd be bedridden and in chronic pain. I gave permission.

Five days later she was dead. It was if she'd willed herself to die. And she did, just shy of her 92nd birthday.

My father's end was equally sad. He suffered with Alzheimers, a long journey to the end. The facility where he spent the last 14 months of his life wanted to put in a stomach peg for feeding after he'd had a choking incident and after we'd nixed periodontal surgery (painful and useless if you can't maintain dental hygiene, post-procedure).

My mother was still healthy at that point and said 'no' on all counts bc she saw no point in extending my father's on-going misery. "He's suffered enough," she said.

My father died 10 days later at the age of 86.

My opinion on the matter is pretty much the same. I do not want heroic/life extending measures if there's little to no chance of recovery from . . . whatever. I've stated that clearly in my Living Will as has my husband. I fully appreciate the life-saving technology that we're afforded throughout our lives and when there's a good chance of recovery, I'm all in.

But quality of life is crucial in our willingness to live and thrive or even our ability to interact with those we love.

My mother-in-law made a similar decision at the end. She refused to be vented when her lungs deteriorated. I managed to speak to the palliative-care director before my MIL went into a final spiral. What could have been a prolonged, painful and terrifying event was ultimately quick and peaceful. She died three weeks before her 90th birthday.

We generally think of 'suicide' as an act of desperation, depression and for many a taboo decision. But for a lot of people faced with advanced years or unrelieved, chronic pain or disease processes that can't be stopped or quality of life sharply curtailed, it's simply an individual saying:

I've had enough.

Personally? I think we all deserve that choice.

[Marthe48]

22. After my husband died almost 6 years ago

I needed to find things to keep me on this side of the veil. I am the only grandparent left for the grandkids. My inlaw counterparts are gone, too. I told the kids I wanted to be here for their high school graduations and would do all I can to be here in 8-10 years. My granddaughter replied, "What about college?" At the time, I felt like she was pushing it Now we are 5-7 years from their graduations.

As long as my mental ability remains good, I don't mind physical aging. However, if I got cancer, I'd rather skip the chemo.

[Ex Lurker]

24. I'm 61 years old, unmarried, with no close friends

I have two siblings who I'm not estranged from but we're not particularly close. My dad is 86 and in pretty good health. My mother is 83 and starting to show signs of mental decline. My current purpose in life is looking after them. After they're gone, I won't have much reason to stick around. I'll be getting to the age where health issues start to crop up. Maybe I'll let nature take its course, or maybe I'll take matters into my own hands. At any rate, I don't envision myself being here past 70-75.