Visa, Mastercard, AmEx to start categorizing gun shop sales

[dalton99a]

https://apnews.com/article/gun-violence-shootings-new-york-city-politics-4aae50c67e40f9683f604a8683acc391

Visa, Mastercard, AmEx to start categorizing gun shop sales
By KEN SWEET

NEW YORK (AP) — Payment processor Visa Inc. said Saturday that it plans to start separately categorizing sales at gun shops, a major win for gun control advocates who say it will help better track suspicious surges of gun sales that could be a prelude to a mass shooting.

But the decision by Visa, the world’s largest payment processor, will likely provoke the ire of gun rights advocates and gun lobbyists, who have argued that categorizing gun sales would unfairly flag an industry when most sales do not lead to mass shootings. It joins Mastercard and American Express, which also said they plan to move forward with categorizing gun shop sales.

Visa said it would adopt the International Organization for Standardization’s new merchant code for gun sales, which was announced on Friday. Until Friday, gun store sales were considered “general merchandise.”

“Following ISO’s decision to establish a new merchant category code, Visa will proceed with next steps, while ensuring we protect all legal commerce on the Visa network in accordance with our long-standing rules,” the payment processor said in a statement.

Visa’s adoption is significant as the largest payment network, and with Mastercard and AmeEx, will likely put pressure on the banks as the card issuers to adopt the standard as well. Visa acts as a middleman between merchants and banks, and it will be up to banks to decide whether they will allow sales at gun stores to happen on their issued cards.

[yankee87]

1. Great news

It’s just a start. With this and what President Biden got passed, a good start

[crickets]

3. +1

[Dysfunctional]

2. I doubt that banks won't let people buy guns on their credit cards.

Any that does will just lose business. There are businesses like Academy Sports that sell guns that have their own credit cards.

[stopdiggin]

4. I very seriously doubt

that there is even any creditable discussion involving such action. I'd say this remains wishful thinking among a few hopefuls.

[blogslug]

6. I think this is about payment processing categorization

I could be wrong. But I think this puts the burden on gun vendors, not customers. As for white-label credit cards, they still come from the main credit card companies.

[Half-step]

5. How else should these sales be categorized?

Groceries...? Home Improvement?

[AndyS]

8. Yes and they are already categorized that way.

My cards break down my monthly bill by category; grocery, automotive, professional services, etc.

"General Merchandize" is a catch all for retail sales not already categorized by type. A grand 'miscellaneous' if you will.

[Straw Man]

7. Just more culture war.

What is the causal connection between "surges of gun sales" and mass shootings? Large-volume sales and gun trafficking maybe, but not mass shootings. However, "mass shootings" is the buzzphrase that gets sympathy from the average person for what is otherwise a rather gross violation of privacy.

Just my 2¢ -- flame away.

[AndyS]

9. As I posted above many types of retail merchandize

are already coded for informational and promotional purposes. That's how cards know to give 3% back for groceries and 2% for restaurants. It's not a 'gross violation of privacy' only a marketing practice used for, among other things, promotional purposes.

With the new code the NSSF could offer discounts or cash back through special issue credit cards.

That it might offer a tool to track or monitor gun trafficking would be quite useful as you point out. If 'mass shootings' are used to motivate or rationalize the implementation of such a tool so be it. The gun industry uses fear of all sorts of imaginary boogey men to sell guns so what's the difference?

So far as 'culture wars' go some cultures are worth going to war with . . .

See, no flames, just trying to put your paranoia in perspective.

[Straw Man]

10. Here's the thing.

If this type of coding is being touted as a tool to prevent gun violence, then it's reasonable to assume that these records are being reported to and scrutinized by law enforcement. It's just another step down the road to the surveillance state. I'd rank it somewhere with anti-abortion zealots scanning women's drugstore purchases.

Now you get to tell me how I have nothing to fear if I haven't done anything wrong. And I get to tell you that being paranoid doesn't mean they aren't actually out to get you.

[AndyS]

13. As to the surveillance state, that horse is out of the barn.

It's like what I'm told about gun availability; it's too late, you can't do anything about it, it's just the way things are. That said, I recognize the dilemma and the comparison with abortion.

In a perfect world gun owners would all be law abiding and responsible (I really detest that hackneyed phrase) making such compromises unnecessary. With 48,000 deaths from gunfire in 2021 and three times that many injuries I think we can agree that it isn't a perfect world and gun owners are not all law abiding and responsible. The other hackneyed phrase that is endlessly repeated is second amendment rights. Way ahead of the second amendment is the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Guns took that from close to 200,000 people in 2021. Gun rights end at everybody else's nose and the overriding concern for them frankly stinks. So like all rights there are limits to gun rights and safeguards placed on them to protect the rights of the rest of us.

If this measure offends the sensibilities of a few gun owners I would offer up a fuck but I'm all out of them to give.

[Straw Man]

16. OK, so ...

With 48,000 deaths from gunfire in 2021 and three times that many injuries I think we can agree that it isn't a perfect world and gun owners are not all law abiding and responsible.

How does this credit card monitoring reduce that level? Is it your contention that monitoring gun purchases could lead to interdiction and prevention of gun crimes? Or is it more likely that the perpetrators of such crimes aren't purchasing their guns legally using their credit cards?

If this measure offends the sensibilities of a few gun owners I would offer up a fuck but I'm all out of them to give.

So we'll just list you under "supports surveillance state if it takes my side in the culture war," OK?

[AndyS]

19. Does this monitoring of gun purchases lead to the prevention of gun crimes?

If, as you conceded, there might be a casual link between surges in gun sales and gun trafficking then yes the monitoring of gun purchases could lead to interdiction and prevention of gun crimes. Given that ALL crime guns in Chicago, a favorite whipping boy of gunners, come from outside the city and 30% of California crime guns are "ghost guns" which are illegal in that state being able to monitor possible gun trafficking seems like a good idea.

Is it more likely that credit cards are being used to traffic guns? That's outside the scope of our 'discussion' but it's not likely that trafficking sales are done with cash. After all we have banking laws that monitor large cash transactions.

I still think some cultures are worth going to war with. Slavery was one, white supremacy was one, misogamy was one and frankly so is the gun culture.

As for 'listing me under' I've already said I have no fucks to give to anyone who prizes guns and the mythic gun right over human life. List me as someone who values Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness over a (not so) well regulated militia. You've already positioned yourself.

[Straw Man]

20. Faulty assumptions.

If, as you conceded, there might be a casual link between surges in gun sales and gun trafficking then yes the monitoring of gun purchases could lead to interdiction and prevention of gun crimes.

So how would that work, exactly? Person X buys a large quantity of guns, and then ... what? The FBI gets a search warrant to see if he/she still has those guns in his/her possession? And then they ask where and how the gun were disposed of? Plausible, but just barely. There's not much there on which to base a warrant application. But I'll admit that it's more plausible than the notion of that same monitoring leading to the prevention of mass shootings, which has no real-world paradigm whatsoever.

Is it more likely that credit cards are being used to traffic guns? That's outside the scope of our 'discussion' but it's not likely that trafficking sales are done with cash. After all we have banking laws that monitor large cash transactions.

Actually, it's VERY likely that these sales are done with cash. We're not talking about Viktor Bout here; we're talking about grassroots operations of straw purchasers and "mules" running guns from one state to another.

I still think some cultures are worth going to war with. Slavery was one, white supremacy was one, misogamy was one and frankly so is the gun culture.

Leaving aside for a moment why you want to go to war with the hatred of marriage, this mythological "gun culture" is a useless catch-all phrase that seeks to conflate hunters, target shooters, and collectors with murderous criminals. Frankly, it's bullshit. You're going to war with a broad spectrum of people whose views on firearms ownership differ from yours. You probably have some picture in your head of a dumb redneck Klansman with an AR-15, who to you represents "the gun culture." The existence of that straw man gives you carte blanche to invoke any and all measures to restrict gun ownership.

As for 'listing me under' I've already said I have no fucks to give to anyone who prizes guns and the mythic gun right over human life. List me as someone who values Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness over a (not so) well regulated militia. You've already positioned yourself.

False dichotomy there. I value nothing over human life. We have criminal codes to deal with threats to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I am not a criminal, and therefore do not appreciate my liberty being siphoned away to suit someone else's vision of what rights should and shouldn't be respected.

I've always been fascinated and somewhat disturbed by the degree to which supposed progressives become law-and-order martinets when it comes to the regulation of guns. I see the right to keep and bear arms as a progressive value. That's my position.

[AndyS]

22. I'm not really sure how such a code would be tracked or used. That's not my job.

this mythological "gun culture" is a useless catch-all phrase that seeks to conflate hunters, target shooters, and collectors with murderous criminals. Frankly, it's bullshit. You're going to war with a broad spectrum of people whose views on firearms ownership differ from yours. You probably have some picture in your head of a dumb redneck Klansman with an AR-15, who to you represents "the gun culture." The existence of that straw man gives you carte blanche to invoke any and all measures to restrict gun ownership.

Gun culture is your phrase, not mine. My view of such a gun culture is the one generated and promoted by the NRA and NSSF. That culture being one of absolutism over "gun rights" (itself a manufactured phrase like modern sporting rifle) and paranoia over any attempt to regulate firearms. It's the stated zero tolerance for any regulation by the NRA. My view of the gun culture has nothing to do with guns but the mindset of a small group of fanatics created by the gun lobby. That includes people so paranoid that they see bogymen intent on destroying some mythical concept of the 2nd Amendment and personal liberty in such benign things as a commercial product code.

As for the picture of me that you've generated in your head, well, I've said twice that I'm completely out of fucks. I'm willing to bet it's completely wrong though.

This is going nowhere, conversations with gun people seldom do, so I'll just let you go your way.

[Straw Man]

23. You're not sure, but you like it anyway.

That's rich.

"Gun culture" was not my phrase; "culture war" was. You've created a gigantic and fallacious ... wait for it .. straw man out of what you yourself admit is a "small group of fanatics." These fanatics are by no means the only people targeted and affected by the ham-handed and overreaching efforts of gun controllers.

If this "commercial product code" is so benign, why is it being touted by gun controllers as a legal tool? That doesn't sound very commercial to me. Again today I'm hearing repetitions of the meaningless fact that multiple mass killers used credit cards to purchase their weapons, and again I have to ask how the coding would have prevented these atrocities -- short of an algorithm that predicts intention, that is. Pure nonsense.

I agree that this is going nowhere. In my experience, conversations with gun-control zealots rarely do.

[Generic Brad]

14. This only helps investigations after the fact

It is not a preventative measure for mass shootings. The purchase of a single weapon will not stand out or be considered suspicious. A spike in sales also does not indicate there will be a surge in militia activity because those people already have weapons galore. What will could do is to assist in piecing together the money trail after something bad happens and possibly make more solid criminal cases. This prevents nothing.

[Bettie]

15. So, purchase your guns with cash

if you are afraid of "the surveillance state".

Now imagine you have a uterus and require health care.

[Straw Man]

18. Exactly.

Now imagine you have a uterus and require health care.

That's right -- another use of digital surveillance to abrogate rights.

[sl8]

11. From Sen. Warren's site:

https://www.warren.senate.gov/oversight/letters/senator-warren-and-representative-dean-urge-bank-ceos-to-adopt-new-code-for-gun-and-ammunition-retailers

SEPTEMBER 02, 2022

Senator Warren and Representative Dean Urge Bank CEOs to Adopt New Code for Gun and Ammunition Retailers

“The creation of a new MCC for gun and ammunition retail stores would be the first step towards facilitating the collection of valuable financial data that could help law enforcement in countering the financing of terrorism efforts.”

Washington D.C. – U.S. Senator Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) and Representative Madeleine Dean (D-Pa.) sent letters to the CEOs of MasterCard, American Express, and Visa urging them to support the creation of a new merchant category code for gun and ammunition retailers and to request information about their reported opposition to Amalgamated Bank’s application for such a code.

“Mass shooters have repeatedly financed deadly massacres using credit cards, and Bank CEOs need to step up to save lives,” said Senator Warren. “Financial institutions and payment networks, such as Visa, MasterCard, and American Express can and should do everything they can to help law enforcement prevent some mass shootings by identifying suspicious gun purchases through the implementation of this new code.”

“By creating a new MCC for gun and ammunition retailers, credit card companies and financial institutions can better monitor suspicious activity, like straw purchases, and, in turn, help save lives,” said Representative Dean. “Our nation’s gun crisis requires all of us to act, and I urge companies like MasterCard, American Express, and Visa to support Amalgamated Bank’s request for this code.”

[...]

[Straw Man]

17. I have a few questions.

“Mass shooters have repeatedly financed deadly massacres using credit cards, and Bank CEOs need to step up to save lives,” said Senator Warren. “Financial institutions and payment networks, such as Visa, MasterCard, and American Express can and should do everything they can to help law enforcement prevent some mass shootings by identifying suspicious gun purchases through the implementation of this new code.”

What is a "suspicious gun purchase"? And how does credit card coding distinguish a suspicious purchase from a non-suspicious one? Is there a special algorithm that identifies malicious intent?

[sl8]

21. Beats me (x3). nt.

[BumRushDaShow]

12. "categorizing gun sales would unfairly flag an industry"

WTF? If you are a proud 2A gun-humper and proud of your purchases, what the hell is wrong with categorizing what you bought - even if it it just generically listed as "firearm"?

If you bought it legally, then what is the problem?