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as Russia Loses War: When/Where Harder to Predict
September 10, 2022 Brian E. Frydenborg
Losing this badly will help wake up millions of Russians to some level of reality, and they will blame Putin. It is doubtful that the Russian military will keep fighting under these conditions for much longer.
https://realcontextnews.com/russian-army-collapses-near-certain-as-russia-loses-war-when-and-where-harder-to-predict/
Good article, long but an easy read and very informative.
Botany
(70,504 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)Is the caption to these maps by the author.
"How it started and how it's going now" is not a pretty picture for the Russians.
Kid Berwyn
(14,904 posts)From the OP article:
Poorly-equipped, poorly-trained, poorly-supplied, poorly-led troops who are fighting for a government with essentially no allies that lies to them for a cause that rings hollow to conquer and kill people in another country who essentially hate them are fighting well-equipped, well-trained, well-supplied, well-led troops who are defending their homes and families for their freedom and are highly motivated to prevail, all with the help of many allies around the world.
The eventual rout of the first group in the face of the second is all but a mathematical equation, as history shows us what happens in these situations. And Russia has literally nothing it can do to increase the quality of the equipment, training, supplies, leadership, or morale of their forces: those are baked hard into the equation at this point. The truly sad part is that Russia has already lost, but much fighting and death happens in war when the result is essentially a foregone conclusion, from the ending of World War II to the ending of the U.S. Civil War to the Vietnam War, and sometimes the worst battles happen close to the end. At least in this current case, there are no horrific battle for Berlin or Okinawa or Siege of Petersburg where a desperate enemy regime is putting up a last-stand type resistance in its home cities; Russia is losing heart fighting on Ukrainian territory and, in the end, can just go home with almost zero realistic chance Ukrainian forces will continue the war into Russia proper. This is not the Great Patriotic War, Russias term for World War II, with Russia saving itself from annihilation in Stalingrad and Leningrad; no, Russian soldiers can just pack up and go home and return to their families here, it is the Ukrainians that are fighting for their survival.
Thus, the main hope I have is that Russian forces will just get tired of fighting and dying for lies and nothing more, will start refusing to fight in Putins disaster of a war, and, that, much like Russian units that mutinied against Tsar Nicholas IIs regime in 1917, will turn around and march on Moscow to end the war by ending the rule of a tyrantas has been my hope since early Marchor, that someone in the Kremlin will do a truly patriotic duty and we will have an announcement that Putin has died peacefully in his sleep.
Regimes that treat their soldiers so badly for so long and keep losing tend to not survive long, and this is one of the basic facts of history. From the very beginning it was obvious Russia was callous and careless with the lives of tis troops, and, at a certain point, the Russia military will hit its breaking point if this war continues. We may be seeing that moment now, or it might be a series of separate breaking points, but it is happening and the Putin regimes days are numbered. Perhaps it can avoid a 1917, but after such a horrible outcome, it may end up more like the warmongering, genocidal Milosevic regime, with its downfall not long after a disastrous war and coming from its own people in 2000 (he was a client of Russias at the time, notably).
On the Writer
Brian earned a M.S. in Peace Operations from the George Mason University School of Public Policy. There he studied abroad in Liberia, evaluating the United Nations Mission in Liberia, and studied abroad in Israel and the West Bank, examining the conflict there. He also holds a B.A. double major in Politics and History from Washington and Lee University, where he engaged in a study abroad program in Japan and also visited Italy, Austria, and Cuba. He now works as a freelancer writer and consultant and lives in Amman while pursuing a career in international affairs.
https://www.mic.com/profile/brian-frydenborg-16234408
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)I rarely start an OP and don't know the ropes.
Kid Berwyn
(14,904 posts)Please add more OPs. The stuff you post always adds to what is worth knowing.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)I lack the self confidence to make OPs.
But this article was stellar and had to be posted.
Doc Sportello
(7,522 posts)You've shown that you can do it just fine, your replies are always thoughtful, and hey, it's anonymous right? Post more and you'll get more confident.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)OK, I will think about making some OPs from time to time.
Evolve Dammit
(16,728 posts)Evolve Dammit
(16,728 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)But I am not really mainstream and see the world differently from most folks.
And way too outspoken.
Evolve Dammit
(16,728 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)Irish Dem unleashed is too much for world to bear.
My daughter says I am not from this planet and I am just trying to fit in.
Evolve Dammit
(16,728 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)I know, I keep complaining I have been sent to the wrong planet, but no one listens.
I am certain I was supposed to go to the spa planet.
Yep chances seem slim to be beamed up.
But we can always hope.
Pluvious
(4,310 posts)One, use the title of the piece with identity of its source
Two, lead out with your own comment to set the context
Three, click excerpt and paste up to four paragraphs from the source
( then click the /excerpt button to close )
Finally, paste the URL
Bonus points if you strip off the query string from the URL - if there is a ? And stuff after it
A must: use preview to confirm all looks right
Cheers m8
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)But you have to start somewhere....
And I knew I would get some advice along the way.
I am going to save your tips.
I think I can do it.
Maybe.
PCIntern
(25,544 posts)Dont worry about being judged
I write shit posts and I write really good posts, as it depends on my mood and the product varies immeasurably. Ive had posts that are in the top five for the day, I have posts that sink to the bottom faster than I could even believe. Have fun with this and keep posting!
Always remember what Bob Dylan said: when you got nothing you got nothing to lose
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)I fear Putin will become more dangerous than usual now that he is losing.
Kid Berwyn
(14,904 posts)Like the OP suggests: just doing the math shows its a matter of time.
Trumps hero knows the next car bomb wont target a supporter or his daughter.
doc03
(35,334 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)Of course it is not paranoia when people are actually trying to kill you.
It is real, not imaginary.
Putin is reported to be the richest man in the world, so he probably has huge amounts of security all around him.
And many escape plans in place. But where does he go?
Yes I agree, all we are reading indicates the war has been lost.
We are at the end game. And that can be dangerous.
Hopefully more dangerous for Putin than Zelensky.
I am not sure Putin can accept this loss.
Everything hinged on it.
His firm belief that he and China will be the sole 21st century superpowers.
And western democracy greatly damaged, even destroyed.
We could be at the most dangerous part of the war.
Lonestarblue
(9,988 posts)The question, though, is who follows Putin. Will it be another dictator, or will the Russian people finally see the light and overthrow the oligarchy to have real elections? The Russian government has been a destructive state for so long that its hard to imagine significant change.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)Last edited Sun Sep 11, 2022, 11:41 AM - Edit history (1)
They are cowards.
Just before his suicide, Hitler had seen the horrific pictures of his ally Mussolini who had been captured
by Italians, then shot, his brutalized corpse hung upside down in the Milan public square.
Hitler did not want the same fate it appears.
Putin has no doubt many hiding places and escape plans.
He may think he can maintain his safety net.
Pluvious
(4,310 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)Elon Musk says Putin is way richer than he is.
Putin basically stripped all the money and resources out of Russia into his own pocket.
onetexan
(13,041 posts)Need to be taken away to repay and rebuild UKR for the attrocities & crimes they committed against a sovereign nation.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)It is a big chunk of land ruled by mobsters.
I agree, all of Putin's wealth should be confiscated and go to re-building Ukraine, reparations and compensation to the war crime victims.
If there is anything left it can go back to the Russian people.
MarineCombatEngineer
(12,375 posts)Russian Military budget, take everything they own and then let the Russian people know of the extent of the corruption and why the Ukr. war was lost.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)The Generals are naked except for those silly huge hats they wear.
The amount of money they stole from the Russian people on signs hung around their necks.
Every penny goes to Ukraine and the Russian people know to the ruble what happened to their money.
COL Mustard
(5,897 posts)Asking for a friend...just asking questions.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)I think it is safe to say that the richest and most paranoid man in the world has bunkers and hidey-holes all over Russia.
Putin is also old school KGB.
Let's hope he has a cyanide capsule in his vest pocket.
PortTack
(32,767 posts)The luxury hi-tech bunker is located in the Altai Mountains and was designed for protection in the event of nuclear war, said political scientist Valery Solovey, 61.
The claim comes as Russia is pounding Kyiv and Kharkiv with deadly rockets leading to accusations that Putin is committing war crimes in striking innocent civilians with vacuum bombs.
https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/putin-hides-family-in-secret-siberian-underground-bunker/news-story/2c69b05e80331b3504f7ed726be75494
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)When it was readily apparent it was not going according to plan.
He could be in the hi tech bunker with his family.
Or in one of his many hidey holes.
sinkingfeeling
(51,457 posts)praying Ukraine drives them back across their border.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)And I am a cynic and realist.
The thing to be worried about now is what is Putin going to do when he realizes that he has lost the war.
Sociopaths as ruthless as he is and as desperate may get much more violent.
uponit7771
(90,336 posts)... all realize Putler is going to take them down with him.
The winter is going to be long in that area of the planet
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)It was his path to eternal glory for Russia being the next global superpower.
He certainly could burn it all down as punishment to Ukraine for his loss.
The only hope is that the Russian elites contain him asap.
zentrum
(9,865 posts).....Maga type folowers who ignore facts and follow robot-like The Great Leader. MRGA. Make Russia Great Again type thing. They won't allow him to be so easily deposed.
May be headed for a kind of Russian civil war.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)Maybe turn about is fair play.
The US and Brits can send in CIA and M16 agents to Moscow to do some rabble rousing.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)but they cannot force Russia to stop this war if they decide to continue it. In Ukraine.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)They cannot keep up the losses.
But yes Putin could keep grinding away for awhile and destroy as much as Ukraine as possible.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)from invading and occupying forces, and so could Russia. Of course, in their case, the "horizon" is actually two thousand miles of common border.
From what I've read, it'd apparently be hard to overestimate Ukraine's importance to both Russia's own as well as imperial identity and function, as well as militarily. Many feel that to Russia letting Ukraine align with the west and join NATO would be like Illinois becoming part of the Russian Federation.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)RU Special Ops should have been able to take Kyiv at the beginning of the war in a couple of days.
RU KGB/FSB should have softened up the target and special ops could have come in and decapitated
the political and military leadership, along with all communications, etc.
But Russians intelligence services and military special ops failed spectacularly.
Their military budget is now blown to bits and it is going to take them a long time to rebuild.
And as you point out, RU has a huge border to protect.
Yes of course losing the war in Ukraine is devastating to Russia in many ways.
Putin is determined to be a 21st century superpower. Also gain regional control.
That is passing before his eyes now.
Oh yes of course, this is humiliating to Putin and dangerous.
The US didn't like it when Russia put nukes in Cuba.
Putin does not want the US right on its border either.
Just like China doesn't want a US presence in Taiwan.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)As much and Moscow and Washington talk, there is one power that emerged as the clear victor: China. China knows that Russia, just like Americas, will pour a lot of blood to the god of war. Simply put, why should China fear Russia when a bunch of Ukrainians humbled them? Yes, Russia can throw Nukes, but China knows they can regrow it's population easily. 1.3 billion beats 150 million.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)China and Russia are allies, united in their goal of becoming the sole 21st century superpowers.
Now China knows their ally is very weak and very foolish.
China has had to lend Russia funds, weapons, etc.
China hates losing face.
China's long term strategic plans are weakened.
Russia is now in a power down position with China.
Good point about China's strength in a conventional war.
It has an endless supply of troops, like Russia fighting the Germans in WWII.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)You know there is some rot in the wall.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)With hot head leaders putting them in danger and making them look bad.
Beijing using bad Chinese words as we speak.
MarineCombatEngineer
(12,375 posts)in the 90's, I can attest to the poor training, morale, and inferior equipment compared to Western Militaries.
Usually on joint training exercises, the Russians would show up either drunk or high, their equipment, what they didn't sell for alcohol or drugs, was in piss poor shape, their NCO's and Officers didn't give a crap as long as it didn't reflect poorly on them.
Seems the phrase meet the new boss, same as the old boss would apply here.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)One would think that the Russians might try to put their best foot forward when dealing
with the Americans.
Of course maybe what you saw was their best foot forward.
I wonder if Putin really did not know his generals had been lying to him and
his military was not the second best in the world?
Or if he knew but figured the Ukrainians were rank amateurs and even his army could beat them?
MarineCombatEngineer
(12,375 posts)this was shortly after the fall of the Soviet Union and they were still trying to figure out their new freedoms, the military was in chaos due to the lack of pay, basic necessities, poor maintenance on their equipment, etc, but it would seem that nothing has changed since my experience with them.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)We see it every day as the war plays out in Ukraine.
Right on video.
When Putin started putting money into the RU military budget,
the generals must have skimmed it all off from the beginning.
MarineCombatEngineer
(12,375 posts)Russia has 5th Gen Fighters in the SU-57 Stealth Fighter, but they only have 3-15 that are actually operational whereas, the US has over 700 of the most advanced Stealth Fighter in the world in the F-35 Lightning and 186 F-22 Raptor Fighters, probably the 2nd most advanced Stealth Fighter in the world.
The US far outclassed the Russians when it comes to advanced technologies on military equipment, training, morale, etc.
You're right, all that money that Putin threw at the Armed Forces went into building dachas, mistresses and such for the high ranking Russian Military officials and their civilian counterparts.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)By American standards all the trappings around him look ridiculous and staged.
Especially in a country where indoor plumbing is not standard.
Yes the Russian elite live a luxury privileged life only a few can even imagine.
Yes the RU is underfunded that is for sure, on paper it was ranked as 5th military budget
in the world, but now we know that budget was not going to actual military expenditure.
Yes Russia is ranked low in terms of the # of stealth fighters it possessed.
I read somewhere that Russia had 16 SU-57s! But most doubted that claim.
Yes how many of that number can actually get off the ground?
RU lost quite a few aircraft during the war. Which they could not afford to do.
Yes by all accounts the F-35 and F-22 are no 1 and 2, but the Chengdu J-20 is no 3.
And China has over 200 of them.
The Chinese also have technology we don't have yet, according to the Pentagon.
DFW
(54,378 posts)He was sent as a conscript as a 20 year old to fight in Afghanistan 40 years ago. He tells of being in a 116 man unit of troops that came under attack from the Mujaheddin. He said the 100 or so Russians picked up and fled, leaving the 16 or so Ukrainians to hold off the attack by themselves. They obviously did, as our friend is here to tell the tale (his version, granted).
But he told us months ago not to count on Russian ground troops to be the ones who will (or can) win this conflict for Putin, because they were/are under-funded, under-equipped, and highly under-motivated. So far, everything he has told me has panned out. Although I don't speak Ukrainian, we converse mostly in Russian, so even with his pronounced Ukrainian accent, there isn't much room for misunderstanding.
Elessar Zappa
(13,991 posts)how many languages do you speak if you dont mind me asking? From your posts, I gather youre a polyglot?
DFW
(54,378 posts)The half is Schwyzerdüütch, or Swiss German. Linguists sometimes call it "Alemannic," as it is different enough from standard German to require subtitles when Swiss programs are shown on German TV. Germans cannot understand it without spending considerable time learning it.
I don't know if nine is sufficient to earn the title of polyglot, especially if one of the nine is my native language (English). The others are German, Swedish, Dutch, Russian, Italian (standard "lingua toscana," no dialects), French, Catalan and Spanish. I know smatterings of others, e.g. Polish, Croatian, Tagalog, Japanese, Danish, but not enough to be conversational.
I am by no means some kind of academic or linguistic genius. It's just that my job takes me to a different country practically every day, coming into contact with native speakers of all those languages, and I find that far less miscommunication occurs when I speak to my colleagues in their own languages. Not only that, on a personal level, the people I work with become my friends as well a LOT faster when I learn their language. Whether or not they know English is completely irrelevant. If I'm out at dinner with a group of Dutch, Catalans or French (or whatever), if I can't take part in their conversations without asking for an English translation, I am an outsider, period. It is very important to me that the people with whom I interact on a constant basis be completely at ease with me, and that means I speak their language. I can't very well ask a table of 6 people at dinner in Holland to all speak English (even if they can) any more than someone from Holland has any business going out to dinner with 6 guys in Dallas and expecting them all to speak Dutch (which they probably can't).
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)DFW
(54,378 posts)My mom was a classical music major in college, even built her own cello, and played it in a local symphony orchestra.
If I am ever more than 100 feet away from a twelve string guitar for any length of time, I suffer from withdrawal symptoms.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)There is some research showing that musicians process music in the same part of the brain which processes languages. Which non musicians do not do.
So musicians think about music and experience in a way very different from the rest of us.
And that would lend itself to a talent in the languages as well.
Have you tried to learn Chinese? It is a tonal language and as a musician you would understand that part of it.
DFW
(54,378 posts)I know a few words of Mandarin, but not even enough to hold even an elementary conversation. I am happy enough when native speakers understand what I say to them. One even told me I have a northern Chinese accent. That made me laugh, since I have never been anywhere on the Chinese mainland, north, south, or otherwise. I have only been to Hong Kong, and outside of good morning and thank you, my Cantonese equals zilch.
There is one famous story about when Robert McNamara visiting Vietnam when he was Defense Secretary. At the end of his speeches there, given in English, he tried to say the Vietnamese version of "god bless America." In Vietnam, the expression translates out to "Vietnam for ten thousand years." However, Vietnamese is a tonal language, and if you don't use the right inflections, you can end up saying something completely different from what you intended. The Vietnamese were known to giggle when he ended his speeches that way. When asked why, they said that he used the wrong tonal inflections, and so, instead of saying "Vietnam for ten thousand years," he proudly said, "the duck wants to lie down."
On the other hand, if you are going to force an audience of foreigners to sit through some boring speech by an American Defense Secretary, he might as well leave them SOMETHING to laugh at for having made them sit through the rest of it.
Elessar Zappa
(13,991 posts)I learned Spanish easily and Im very fluent in that language but German has been a monster to me. Ive been studying it a year and still cant understand most of a conversation (I can read it much better). The case system as well as the prepositions really throw me off, among other things. I cant imagine being able to learn nine languages.
DFW
(54,378 posts)Especially if your work takes you to most of them at least once a month, in some cases once a week. It becomes second nature after a while. If my phone rings, and I see +3493 on the caller ID, I know I should answer in Catalan. If I see +46, I know to answer in Swedish. Etc.
By the way, if you think declensions (the case system) are bad in German, just wait til you get to the Slavic languages. Far worse are some of the non-European languages spoken in European countries (Finnish, Hungarian, Basque). They make Russian seem like Dick and Jane. Then, there's Turkish, which puts the negative in the middle of the word (e.g. ben bilyorum=I know, ben bilmiyorum=I don't know) or Japanese, which to Westerners seems spoken backwards. Of course, to a Japanese, our indo-Euroean languages seem spoken backwards, too. This is why native speakers of Japanese don't tend to try to form long sentences in English. They don't know where to start or end. Not only that, adjectives in Japanese have time. "Blue now" is not the same word as "blue then." Learning from a book must be awful, but the on-the-job training is the coolest thing in the world.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)While the Russian military looks good on paper, the actual performance is dismal.
DFW
(54,378 posts)In the beginning, everyone feared for the Ukrainians, facing this massive juggernaut of an enemy. Very had the slightest inkling how weak the Red Army truly was, both in materiel and morale. Putin probably knew, but figured it would all be over before the weaknesses were exposed.
That is the problem in a system where even competent intelligence services are reluctant to tell their leadership the truth. Think Iraq and Rumsfeld's "maybe six days, maybe six weeks, certainly not six months." If he had asked for the naked truth, and heard "not even in six years, you dork!" he might have given Cheney different advice from what he actually told him before marching in. If JFK had been told that Vietnam would be a twelve year disaster for the USA, I'm sure he would not have gone near it with US forces, and listened to what the French told him after their debacle in 1954.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)If you look at the two armies on paper, Russia should have been able to knock out the Ukraines very quickly.
Some reports indicate that the RU FSB was supposed to have had Russian puppets in place to take over Kyiv prior to the invasion. Then a Russian special ops team was supposed to come in and kill Zelensky and other government figures, and do mop up. A Putin government would have been in place and claim immediate victory.
This is substantiated by reports that the RU solders did not have combat gear with them, only a neatly folded dress uniform suitable for a victory parade and media photos.
But in the end the Putin puppets pocketed the Russian bribes and high tailed it out of Ukraine.
The RU special ops team was so bad it hardly even made it into Kyiv, much less take over the city.
In addition the FSB had done focus groups with the Ukraines and knew they would fight back hard against RU aggression.
The FSB lied about all of it to Putin.
Cheney had his own agenda and was not going to be swayed by facts. Halliburton has made $billions of dollars on US wars.
It was said that JFK wanted to end troops going into Viet Nam before he was killed.
And then when LBJ came to office the war was vastly increased. Many people became quite rich in the process.
Hard to tell what American politicians will do in terms of war.
Often the motives are not altruistic.
Maybe it is not that they don't listen to the experts.
Maybe they don't care.
MarineCombatEngineer
(12,375 posts)a military can have the best equipment, but without competent leadership, good morale, etc, their nothing more than a paper tiger, but in the case of the modern Russian military, none of those things exist and we're seeing it played out in real time just how weak Russia's conventional forces are.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)Russia is like WWII Germany and Japan. Very top heavy command.
Lower ranks could not move without higher up permission.
Out in the field during combat, the US gave an order and let the junior officers and NCOs do
what was best since they were the ones with the best information regarding the enemy and
ground conditions etc.
edhopper
(33,579 posts)The Russians have a long history of tolerating horrible rulers.
DFW
(54,378 posts)If Putin is replaced any time soon, it will be done by the very people that now profess to be his allies: the higher-ranked military and the nouveau riche class of clever opportunists that took early advantage of the post 1991 situation. If a majority of them determine that their interests are better served with Putin gone, well, one way or another, he will be gone.
edhopper
(33,579 posts)DFW
(54,378 posts)He can get the odd one or the other, but if he starts trying to eliminate all of them Stalin-style, it won't work. EVERYONE in Russia knows how Stalin eliminated his opposition, and they will have taken precautions. They will band against him if he tries to get rid of all of them. Putin has been around enough to know the score, too. That's how he has lasted as long as he has. He will withdraw from all Ukrainian territory immediately and declare victory before he lets himself be caught standing in front of one of those open tenth story windows.
edhopper
(33,579 posts)will what follows be better or worse?
Though at least they will withdraw from Ukraine.
DFW
(54,378 posts)I figure his successor will be far more pragmatic, and less ego-driven. They will see that a "free" Ukraine is much more useful to Russia as an affluent trading partner/goods conduit than as a military adversary. It will also be far easier to infiltrate politically if peace and prosperity reign. There is nothing like a country of full bellies and comfortable living conditions to get them to let their guard down.
This was the thinking when they supported Brexit, This was the thinking when they supported Trump. Both were major political victories, drastically weakening a potential adversary without firing a shot. Look for more of that from Putin's successor, and less use of of force on which, as has been so dramatically demonstrated, he cannot rely.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)Are others getting nervous?
DFW
(54,378 posts)When there is no more safety in thdir numbers, it will be every man for himself.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)Probably the RU oil and gas oligarchs have the CIA extraction team on speed dial.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)Putin has been knocking off Russian oligarchs, which cannot make the other wealthy Russians happy.
Russian top brass in the military have been totally humiliated and defeated on the world stage.
They cannot be happy and won't take responsibility of course and will want to blame someone.
Everyone was happy, on the gravy train, doing well until Putin started the war in Ukraine.
bucolic_frolic
(43,161 posts)Joe Biden's America is strong!
gab13by13
(21,337 posts)I bet a wooden nickel that Trump told Putin that Biden was weak. All that president Biden did was the exact opposite. He kept NATO united, he pushed for arms for Ukraine and pushed other countries to arm Ukraine.
My guess is that Putin may feel that he was conned by Trump, release the Pee tapes.
jcgoldie
(11,631 posts)Im guessing one of them wasnt taking advice from moron Trump.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)Trump would have hated Putin at some point for putting so much pressure on him.
In return for his installation to the WH.
And Putin would have rubbed that in Trump's face.
We have seen some very interesting looking pictures of their meetings.
The look of angst on Trump's face is priceless.
Trump lives for revenge.
Yes of course would do his own intel on Biden.
But there are other ways Trump could get even with Putin.
Lonestarblue
(9,988 posts)Putin most likely thought that Trump had alienated US allies so much that they would not longer support US initiatives, and thus it was safe for him to invade Ukraine. Trump portrayed Biden as weak, repeatedly calling him Sleepy Joe. Much of the US media assisted in the effort to portray Biden as weak, faithfully repeating Republican claims about him, even that he had dementia.
What Putin failed to grasp was that Biden is not weak and had the experience, ability, and gravitas to rebuild the US relationship with our allies, which he spent much of his first year in office doing. And now we see how that effort has paid off. Knowledge of world issues and competence really do count.
gab13by13
(21,337 posts)Putin planned on a 1 month war. If Putin was smart not to seek Trump's opinion, he still hugely underestimated President Biden's role in keeping NATO united, in responding quickly to Russia's invasion. If NATO sits back Putin would have had his 1 month war.
Once again President Biden doesn't get the credit he deserves from the MSM, he does get the credit here at DU.
ariadne0614
(1,729 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)11th house.
On top of being Irish.
God help his enemies.
I am actually feeling a bit sorry for them right now.
ariadne0614
(1,729 posts)Ponietz
(2,969 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)COL Mustard
(5,897 posts)US and China competing for global dominance. Russia has shot itself in the foot, literally and is headed for the ash heap of history.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)China would control the East.
I don't know what the plan is now in light of Putin's huge screw up.
China probably figures it is going to have to do everything by itself and delay plans for awhile.
But the good news is that Putin did damage the US a great deal.
So China is happy about that piece and has to give Putin credit.
GreenWave
(6,745 posts)Gloria al bravo pueblo
que el yugo lanzo
Glory to the brave people
who threw off that yoke...
Kaleva
(36,298 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)I guess it is a real thing.
The term comes from Grigory Potemkin, a minister and lover to Russian Empress Catherine II.
He used fake villages to cover up how badly the country side had been devastated by recent wars.
They were portable and he just moved them around for the Empress and allies to view when visiting.
Probably exactly the same thing Russian generals did during reviews and audits.
Kaleva
(36,298 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)And the generals wearing those foolish looking oversized hats.
It was all play acting. No substance there at all.
NCjack
(10,279 posts)has run to Moscow, dug Putin out of his hidey-hole, and is dragging him by his feet through the streets.
Farmer-Rick
(10,170 posts)It is chuck full of information.
So, it seems Russia is still trying to mesmerize their enemies like in the cold war. Turns out the intelligence about Russia's strong military during the cold war was mostly hokum too.
Their equipment though plentiful was shoddy and not maintained.
Their military members were poorly fed and rarely even paid. When I met some of the Russian Navy at the end of the cold war, I was dumbfounded by how thin, poorly nourished and exhausted they all looked. Their uniforms were I'll fitting and dirty.
Their supply chain was laughable and a lot of repairs were completed by Americans on their ships in order to get them out of the New York harbor after a visit there. Their ships were in bad shape.
But the cold war intelligence was glowing about how prepared Russian military was. It seems we got the same over inflated intelligence about Russian capabilities that Ukraine and the rest of the world got this time around too.
Russia really does great spy work and intelligence to be able to make everyone believe they are the 2nd best military in the world both during the cold war and today. They are great with espionage but not so much with supplying and maintaining their military.
Maybe Putin should have spent more of Russia's money on military equipment, parts and food and less on castles in the mountains. Just one of Putin's gilded front doors would have fed his advance troops for weeks.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)Amazing story about the Russian Navy.
Thin, badly nourished and exhausted crews.
So the sailors were being given barely enough rations to survive and of poor quality.
And totally undermanned, working long shifts, doing multiple jobs.
But they were not doing routine ship maintenance.
Due to lack of equipment, training, etc.????
They probably knew the best way to get repairs was to sail into an American harbor.
And maybe American food too.
Right we now know the Russian military on paper has zero relationship to reality.
Putin is supposed to be worth about $300 billion, the richest man in the world.
Yep he could have bought some military surplus MREs for his troops to eat in Ukraine.
Yes the Russians are really good at PR and Bullshit.
And espionage. They did a great deal of damage to the US and didn't fire a shot.
keithbvadu2
(36,799 posts)This is the vaunted Russian army that Rafael Cruz, who never served, gushed about while denigrating our American army.
https://www.google.com/search?q=cruz+praises+russian+army&client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=ALiCzsYZATu7ZCnAEuTcOB9kimJISz-wyA%3A1662855366450&ei=xigdY5uDG5eviLMPueqQ8AI&ved=0ahUKEwib_rf7uov6AhWXF2IAHTk1BC4Q4dUDCA0&uact=5&oq=cruz+praises+russian+army&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6CggAEEcQ1gQQsAM6BwgAELADEEM6BAgjECc6BAgAEEM6BQgAEJECOgsIABCABBCxAxCDAToECC4QQzoFCAAQgAQ6CAgAEIAEELEDOgsILhCABBCxAxCDAToOCC4QgAQQsQMQxwEQ0QM6BwguELEDEEM6CAguEIAEELEDOgoIABCxAxCDARBDOgsILhCABBDHARCvAToFCC4QgAQ6BggAEB4QFjoFCAAQhgM6BQghEKABOgUIIRCrAjoICCEQHhAWEB1KBAhBGABKBAhGGABQ5hJY-mlgk3RoBnABeACAAeoEiAH4J5IBCzEwLjEzLjQuNS0zmAEAoAEByAEKwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz
SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)Silent3
(15,211 posts)Is Putin capable of admitting defeat and giving up when he still has one option to utterly destroy Ukraine?
I used to think of Putin as intelligent. Evil, but intelligent and disciplined. He's still clearly a genius if one uses low standards like Trump for comparison. But it has become more apparent to me since this war in Ukraine began that Putin is as much a slave to his own ego as Trump is, just as incapable of admitting error or defeat.
I hope those in power in Russia, who are capable of seeing the writing on the wall, finally become brave enough to depose Putin sooner rather than later.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)He is more like a serial killer while Trump is a white collar criminal on steroids.
Trump is cunning and ruthless as well but a rank amateur compared to Putin.
Yes your point about their egos is correct. They are letting their egos make decisions now.
Not good sense.
Putin is blinded now by his long time dream of being the ruler over the new Russian empire,
and becoming a 21st century true superpower.
He is also feeling the pressure of time because of his illness.
And this may also be affecting his mental status.
He is also a narcissist, loves to flaunt his power, he murders people with impunity and enjoys the
cruelty of using poison and flinging people in terror out of windows. He uses signature killing styles as
a way to brag and terrorize others into compliance.
I agree the end game is dangerous.
I do not know if Putin can admit defeat and surrender.
Yes he is capable of destroying Ukraine to the last person and last tree.
Yes he could use low grade nuclear weapons, or blow up the nuclear power plants in Ukraine.
He wants to terrorize Europe into pressuring Zelensky to surrender.
Putin thinks he can freeze out Europe this winter and make them comply to his wishes.
So maybe he will not go too hard right now, he thinks the winter is a going to help him.
So he thinks he has an ace up his sleeve to play yet.
He is also running out of Russian troops, so there is a limit to some of his dirty work.
And I imagine Biden and the CIA know Putin's danger level.
As do the Russian generals and inner circle.
So there are some checks on his behavior now and in the future I think.
Silent3
(15,211 posts)...gives me hope he can be ousted soon and bring an end to the needless suffering in Ukraine well before winter sets in.
I was very surprised to read that apparently (I'd like more confirmation of this) many Moscow officials were calling for his resignation.
The biggest barrier to that, besides Putin's reluctance, is I have no idea (and the Russians probably have no clear idea either) who would step up to fill the power vacuum.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)But replacing Putin with someone worse doesn't make sense on a practical level?
So say the Russian people, or military, or oligarchs go to the huge amount of danger and trouble
to replace Putin only to replace him with some worse than Putin, then what is the point?
Seems to me they want someone who can at least pretend to make nice with the world.
Get the sanctions lifted, stop Russian boys coming home in body bags, etc.
The military by now knows that they are defeated and piss poor at their jobs.
The last thing they want is another pro war guy.
And even if you are worse than Putin and now have his job, you would notice your predecessor
barely escaped with his life, or is in hiding. Seems you would calm things down if only to save your
own skin.
Silent3
(15,211 posts)...obvious. I'm sure there are plenty of ambitious competitors, happy to stop fighting Ukraine, for being the one to take over Putin's position at the top of the corrupt grift economy. Far fewer forces eager to install a reformer like Navalny who has no desire to keep the oligarchs happy.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)Someone like Navalny is a huge long shot candidate.
It is going to be someone who can keep the vast wealth of Russia in the hands of a small group.
Yes of course there is going to be brutal infighting for the spot.
The top spot means you can become the richest man in the entire world.
It is worth $300 billion dollars
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)Someone like Navalny is a huge long shot candidate.
It is going to be someone who can keep the vast wealth of Russia in the hands of a small group.
Yes of course there is going to be brutal infighting for the spot.
The top spot means you can become the richest man in the entire world.
It is worth $300 billion dollars
The Jungle 1
(4,552 posts)NATO may have to take a stand if the fing nut won't stand down.
I am sure the events around the plant are being watched closely.
Ferryboat
(922 posts)Decision has been made to do a cold shutdown of the plant, reducing the dangers of a disaster.
The Jungle 1
(4,552 posts)Russia controls the plant.
Hermit-The-Prog
(33,343 posts)DFW
(54,378 posts)He has always looked out for #1, and that does not include getting put up before a firing squad (he has been there and done that, but always on the safer end), or flying out of some tenth story window thinking it was the elevator. If he becomes desperate, I think he will do what he thinks is necessary to maintain power, and if that fails, he has enough money stashed around the world to live out his retirement years in high style, be it in Turkey, on Kish (hi, Dick!), in Azerbaidjan or Brunei. If he pays off enough people, maybe they would even let him stay in his huge pad outside Sochi.
Hermit-The-Prog
(33,343 posts)I fear that Putin's ego won't let him make a run for it; he will believe he is superior in mind and tenacity right up until he runs out of power. The world will be better if he's not allowed to take refuge elsewhere.
DFW
(54,378 posts)Putin's ego is right up there, agreed, but he has always been a survivor as well. He made the transition from uniformed member of the "sword and shield" of socialism to suit-and-tie consummate bureaucrat rather seamlessly. I'm sure he'd rather make the transition from dictator to gazillionaire-in-exile than to finding out what it's like on the wrong end of one of those firing squads he commanded.
panader0
(25,816 posts)Last edited Sun Sep 11, 2022, 01:50 PM - Edit history (1)
I hope they realize that it would be a wasted move, but it bothers me.
DFW
(54,378 posts)It will be because they are issuing some IOUs that they mean to call in later.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)China and Russia want to be the sole 21st century superpowers.
China will control the East, Russia the West.
They must first have regional control.
Putin must take Ukraine.
China must take Taiwan.
But yes there is something called "Guanxi."
This is a term used in Chinese culture to describe an individual's social network
of mutually beneficial personal and business relationships. It describes the transactional
nature of relationships and expectations.
Yes Russia is now greatly beholden to China.
Not really a comfortable place to be.
ananda
(28,859 posts)Thanks for posting.
PortTack
(32,767 posts)maxsolomon
(33,342 posts)The numerous typos (Minks Agreement?) don't help.
It gives me hope for Ukraine, but this war is a long way from over.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)But other accounts are saying that Ukraine is doing a great job and making huge inroads.
No matter what, the war is not over and the end game can be the worst part of combat.
maxsolomon
(33,342 posts)But I don't see
1. the Russian military turning on Putin and deposing him.
2. someone assassinating Putin.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)And what will Putin do next?
What happens to Putin and Russia?
Do you think no assassination because Putin is too well protected?
Or the generals and oligarchs are too afraid of him?
Or like him too much?
I don't think Putin will give up easily.
maxsolomon
(33,342 posts)Hostilities continue for the remainder of Putin's life.
Irish_Dem
(47,053 posts)Zelensky seems determined at this point not to cede any land.
But he may have to relent in the end.
Yes I can see Putin fighting until he dies.
Demsrule86
(68,565 posts)I kicked in a few bucks to the website.
Progressive dog
(6,902 posts)Thanks
lpbk2713
(42,757 posts)All these years Putin was just full of shit.
Tetrachloride
(7,841 posts)then I can use happier vocabulary.
For now, I say ty for the post.