It Isn't About Abortion, it's about men controlling women.

[kpete]

[betsuni]

1. K&R

[markie]

2. Lance, I love you...

but we have known this all along!

[Irish_Dem]

13. Yep I keep posting the same thing. Men must have reproductive restrictions as well.

But I get pushback being called sexist!

Go figure.

[modrepub]

3. Charge The Woman, The Doctor, The Health Care Provider

but not the man who impregnated her.

I've seen some callous responses to college women who talk about how concerned they are about going to college in an abortion restricted state. Mainly along the lines of how "slutty" they were for engaging in sexual activity. Never a comment about the men who engaged with them and other women. And the M$M never seem to point this out. Still a man's world (unfortunately).

[Hugh_Lebowski]

4. Let me see if I understand correctly ...

I am extremely pro-choice, to the point you might even say I'm pro-abortion. So let me be clear upfront before I say my controversial shit.

On to that ... one of most popular banners/messages of pro-choice women at protests and the like read "My Body, My Choice!", correct?

Does this not inherently imply that the sperm-donor for the child ... has no say? Seems to me that is what's being loudly proclaimed by this popular message.

So, which is it my sisters? Do you want total autonomy, or do you want to give the sperm-donor 'say' in the matter?

If the former, it seems like agitating for the sperm-donor to also be punished when a pregnant person chooses to terminate (which Lance here seems to arguing for) is inherently at odds with 'my body, my choice'. Can't give them no 'say' in the matter ... and then punish them for the pregnant person's choice, can you?

Furthermore, I could see some of these backwards states making laws that say 'it is a crime for a sperm-donor to encourage/require their pregnant partner to get an abortion or aid in their transport to a place that performs them'.

But would that make anyone actually feel better about this ongoing travesty, because then it puts some onus on sperm-donors as well? I would think laws like that would suck, too.

At the same time, I also don't think it would disprove the idea that it's mostly about 'control over women' if such laws were passed.

I guess in a nutshell, the latter half of the post forms the far more compelling argument for what it's really 'about' versus the lack of punishment for sperm-donors.

[Marthe48]

10. Addressing both-siderism

If the anti-abortion laws are the current repression, punish every person involved in the egg's life, not just the woman and doctors.

But, since the laws are in place to repress women's rights, of course the laws won't target the sperm-donor. Not as loving husband who wants to save his wife's life, not as a rapist, not as a child molester. The laws repress women, and they must be once and for all, eliminated from our culture. And if the draconian laws are imposed on us, then we must keep insisting that born humans have their basic human needs met and get treated respectfully, from cradle to grave. Maybe if we insist on that, the despots will finally discern that women and children are humans, and without them, the race will be over.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

15. So your position is a couple get pregnant

The woman exercises 'my body, my choice' (as I'd imagine we both agree is proper) and gets an abortion that's against the law ... the man should also be punished, even if his position was 'I do not want her to have an abortion, nor to break the law'?

You don't see how that'd be pretty much ... bullshit?

There are other good arguments one can make to show that it's really about control of women, but I don't agree that the lack of punishing the father for a woman's choice to get an abortion is one of them.

[Demsrule86]

25. Hey, he got her pregnant...wouldn't need an abortion if that hadn't happened. Men need

to face their responsibilities and paying shit money for child support won't cover it. Seriously lame post.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

27. Bottom-line, it's not going to solve anything to charge men

Last edited Sat Oct 1, 2022, 05:10 PM - Edit history (1)

with crimes over women's abortions.

Not sure how you're missing that a law of this sort would also disempower women. You would essentially be giving males 'just cause' to tell her 'this is not exclusively your choice anymore, because I can go to jail, too'.

That would inevitably lead to abuse, and women feeling even more constrained to make a choice that should be hers to make.

I'm sorry that I feel you can't have it both ways. It's either the woman's choice, or it's not. If the man should have no 'say', then you can't throw him in jail for her choice.

I don't see what's 'lame' about adhering to basic fairness and logical consistency, but whatever. Agree to disagree on this point.

And let's agree that these abortion bans are fucking lame, and nobody should be going to jail over abortions, period

EDIT: I 100% support the child support part of what you said.

[Higherarky]

54. This would be the optimal opportunity for the male to keep his sperm to himself

"You would essentially be giving males 'just cause' to tell her 'this is not exclusively your choice anymore, because I can go to jail, too'"

Come on, man. Sow thy seed with discretion.

[Higherarky]

55. If the male could go to jail too

then he should be EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS about where he deposits his sperm.

!!!

[calimary]

67. There is that.

There certainly is that!

[Higherarky]

74. IKR? It's called "deterrence."

Something that, under the law, men have absolutely none of in this country at this point in time. Even brood animals are better protected by responsible animal husbandry than are women by the laws of this land.

And I, for one, am bone-weary of the banal platitudes offered by the "not all men" whiners.

SMH

[calimary]

76. You're not alone, my friend.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

78. Actually, child support payments can absolutely be a deterrent

And beefing up the laws around them, and penalties for non-support?

Those are a means of holding the male accountable that I'm 100% behind

Throwing the male in jail over a choice that we BOTH AGREE should be a woman's choice, however, is going backwards in my view.

First off, do you really want MORE laws and bureaucracy built up around the fundamental premise that abortion should be treated as a crime? I definitely do not, personally. But that's what those laws would do. Further codify the premise that abortion is a crime. Not good in the end IMHO.

And as I've said many times on this thread, I feel making laws like that fundamentally undermines the position that 'it's the woman's choice'. A law penalizing a man for a woman's choice suggests 'it's NOT ALL the woman's choice'. It IMPLIES it's also the males choice, otherwise why would he be going to jail when it happens?

You know how many women would be deterred from having an abortion if they knew their partner could go to jail as well? Either because they love that partner, OR because that partner/male would threaten or even kill them for making that choice? I'd venture to say, the net effect would be a disempowerment of women. Not what either of us prefer.

I'm sorry if I'm a 'not all men whiner' but I've considered this question, and my HUMBLE opinion is that it's objectively not a good idea, even if it might make some people feel better.

Lastly, I want a scenario where we don't NEED 'deterrence' ... because abortion should be safe, cheap and legal in the first fucking place.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

37. This ☝️

Yep takes 2 to make a baby.
The man will never be held responsible.

This is about men demoting women into second class citizens to be servants of men barefoot and in the kitchen.

These anti abortion pieces of shit want to own women. Treat them like shit make them dependent on a man to survive,make them take care of the man for free and make more sons for these motherfuckers.
They want to abuse women and normalize that.

Toxic men ,hate them all .

[Hugh_Lebowski]

48. How about we target our ire upon the men AND women who are anti-choice evangelical assholes?

This isn't all the gender of male's doing.

From ... today.

"PHOENIX (AP) — An Arizona judge on Friday declined to put her order that allowed enforcement of a pre-statehood law making it a crime to provide an abortion on hold, saying abortion rights groups that asked her to block the order are not likely to prevail on appeal."

As a liberal dude who's 1000% pro-choice, the constant man-bashing get's a little old I gotta say.

You wanna punish/jail men for a woman's choice to get an abortion, guess who's going to jail for it? Mostly liberal men who encourage a woman to exercise their choice. The type actually responsible for these sorts of laws will simply demand that the woman doesn't get one, or he's going to kill her or some shit, cause he could go to jail if she exercises her choice.

Promoting this idea is, imho, short-sighted. YMMV.

[Marthe48]

26. I don't think that at all

But I felt like that both-siderism explains the part of the post that you point out.

If any woman wants an abortion, that is her decision. I was in a loving marriage for almost 44 years. Had I become pregnant and needed to get an abortion, I would've included my dear husband in any mental debate I had before I made up my mind. Not everyone can do that.

I'm thinking a lot about sex while this debate goes on. Today, I think many men have a lot of shame for needing sex, and maybe they'd feel less shame if they'd understand that women need sex, too. But many men don't understand that, and transfer their shame into hate. As a result, we get oppression and cruel laws that showcase their hate and shame.

[Higherarky]

38. A male human always has the option of keeping his sperm to himself

There. Problems solved.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

49. Women should be free to terminate their pregnancy for any reason in the first 24 weeks

And what the guy thinks about it shouldn't matter.

There. Problems solved.

[Higherarky]

52. Yup. That works too.

Although I disagree with your suggested "first 24 weeks" limitation. Or any limitation at all.

Nunya

[Hugh_Lebowski]

53. Well, that was pretty much what Roe said ...

I don't think you should be able to arbitrarily choose an abortion at 8 months 29 days.

Nor did SCOTUS in 1973.

And I'm aware you never COULD terminate at 8mo 29 days for a reason other than life of mother, but your argument suggests that's what you believe when you say "Or any limitation at all."

Some limitations are reasonable imo.

[Higherarky]

56. I don't think men or bodies of law should be able, arbitrarily or not,

to set ANY limits on abortion.

Don't you get it? Bodily autonomy is bodily autonomy! FULL STOP!! End of discussion!!

You really don't get it, do you?

[Hugh_Lebowski]

58. So, abortions on demand at 8 months, 29 days, that's your position?

I have to disagree.

[Higherarky]

59. Yes. A woman's body, a woman's choice.

Bodily autonomy. Bottom line.

No one in this country tells men what to do with their bodies.

No one in this country should be able to tell women what to do with their bodies.

It's quite simple, actually.

Autonomy.


Autonomy Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/autonomy
Aug 28, 2011 · Definition of autonomy 1 : the quality or state of being self-governing.

[Higherarky]

60. Self-directing freedom and especially moral independence -- personal autonomy

Bodily autonomy, Friend. You either have it or you don't.

Do you have bodily autonomy?

If you do, what makes it okay for you to have it, but not okay for women to have it?

I'll be waiting right here for your answer.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

69. Look it's never been the law that you can choose abortion of a clearly viable fetus

Most abortion doctors wouldn't want to do so even if it were legal, are you going to make them do it?

24 weeks is long enough to decide and get it done IMHO, and Roe (and subsequent cases) made this distinction as well. Obviously life of the mother is an exception.

At what point do you think the cutoff should be to 'choose'? When the crown of the head pops out? When the incision is made for the c-section? When should it be, exactly?

[Higherarky]

70. I don't want to put limits on your personal bodily autonomy, Sir.

Why do you want to put limits on mine?

THERE SHOULD BE NO CUTOFF to when I am "allowed" to make decisions regarding my own body! Fuck that bullshit!!!

YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE WHAT HAPPENS TO MY BODY!!!

I don't care what you think. I don't care what the Supreme Court thinks. It's MY body, and I don't want limits placed upon it.

I am perfectly capable of making my own decisions regarding my personal anatomy.

NO LIMITS!! I choose what happens to my body. You choose what happens to yours. What happens to my body is MY BUSINESS, you audacious control freak!

IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!! WHAT PART OF THAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND???!!!

YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE FOR ME!!!!!!

Frickin' Control Freak. Typical male behavior. You talk like you feel you're so enlightened, but you're no different from the rest. Fuck completely off! And when you're done fucking off, go fuck yourself into oblivion and keep your control-freak attitude off my body!!! Disgusting control freak!

No offense intended, of course, just like you probably don't mean to offend women with your fucking control-freak attitude.

I'm done with you. You're just an ordinary average control-freak guy.

🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕

[Hugh_Lebowski]

77. My position is by far the most common/accepted attitude on this subject

Very, very few people would agree that a woman should be able to just up and decide to abort a healthy, viable fetus at, say 8 months, purely on the grounds that 'it's her choice to make'. And you'd have a very, very hard time finding a doctor willing to terminate at that point, even if it were technically legal to do.

Your position, IOW, is one that would be considered extreme by most Americans.

And I get that you don't GAF what anyone thinks, and that's fine by me.

I didn't attack and insult you for YOUR position on this question, did I now?

Have a nice day.

[Higherarky]

40. Maybe men need to keep their legs crossed with their penis tucked between them

💡

[Higherarky]

42. Once a man's sperm have exited his penis, he is no longer in control of them.

They're up for grabs, so to speak. Get over it.

Men, control thy seed. Plant it wisely.

[ShazzieB]

11. I hear you!

You raise some excellent points, and I agree. I see no way to hold "sperm donors" responsible for abortions without giving them WAY too much power over women's decisions.

What is needed is quality sex education that teaches boys AND girls to make responsible choices and avoid engaging in unprotected piv sex. After all these years, we still haven't progressed much beyond the the old standard of telling girls that "boys are horndogs who want to get in your pants, and it's up to you to find them off," which is pretty ridiculous.

[3catwoman3]

28. "...and it's up to you to find them off." I sure hear my late mother's voice in this.

She must have been terrified that I would get pregnant out of wedlock (born in 1951). I was raised to think that not only was I responsible for my own sexual behavior, I was also responsible for the sexual behavior of any guy I dated.

A constant refrain, once I started dating, was that it was cruel to do anything that led to male arousal because erections that were not allowed to proceed to their natural conclusion, so to speak, were agonizingly painful for for the boy/man.
- Never sit on a guy's lap - too arousing
- No extended kissing sessions - too arousing
- Don't press up to close when hugging - too arousing
- No touching of anything below the shoulders/ holding hands was OK

I used to count kisses. More than 6 and it was time to call it quits for the evening.

It is definitely not fair for women to be told they are responsible for men's behavior.

[Lonestarblue]

18. It is not the sperm donor who has to be pregnant for 9 months.

Thus, I’m always seen the choice of whether to have an abortion a woman’s decision. In loving relationships, that decision is still most likely to be made together. But no way should a rapist or a child molester have a say in whether a woman gets an abortion.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

20. It's my position that it should be 100% the pregnant persons choice in the end

Which then leads me, for the sake of logical consistency, towards the idea that it's inherently unfair to hold the sperm-donor responsible legally for an abortion the pregnant person had the autonomy to choose, and availed themselves thereof.

That's all I'm saying, that would involve a dichotomy I'm uncomfortable with.

Nothing about rapists having a say in forcing her to have their child, not sure why you brought that up. Of COURSE they should have zero say in the matter.

[progressoid]

63. Yup. n/t

[Whatthe_Firetruck]

65. The decision belongs to the one...

... In whose body the baby gestates in. Hers is the risks to life, health, or financial security, so she should be the decider.

If it were possible to transfer the baby to the man in an artificial womb, then he can have a say, as he assumes those risks.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

68. 100% agree as I've said over and over on this thread (nt)

[twodogsbarking]

5. Not unlike Iran, Saudi, etc.

[lindysalsagal]

57. Men fear women. They try to control women.

[JI7]

6. YEs, that weird looking Trump guy that was working at CNN at the same time

cheated on his wife and got another woman pregnant and tried to get her to abort it. There should be a law to charge him with attempted murder.

[paleotn]

7. Lance gets it.

[Heather MC]

8. THE TRUTH IS...

In their hearts, men that want to control women's reproductive rights, Are jealous because giving birth is something they will never ever be able to do.

Just look at how white men interject themselves into every f****** story in history and erase and erase accomplishments by anyone else.

Example, how many of us know that it was the right brother's sister, they're, who actually got them to build the plane and help them and did most of the brain work to make it happen.

Example, the movie hidden figures exposed the fact that it was black women's mathematical genius that brought the 1st man in space home safely.

Example, only men write religious text, that usually subjugates women

So of course when it comes to our ability to create life and bring life into this world, the jealous powerful men of this world will do everything they can to interject, Where they don't fucking belong.
And the women who support these men, are traders to the blood that flows out of their vaginas. That's why their life is always shit. They are always the most unhappiest bitches on the planet🤷🏾?♀️

[Bulldog Liberal]

16. Uh, kind of..........

I hear what you're saying, but you give them FAR too much credit. They care about 1 thing, power for power's sake. The way these psychopaths so willingly accepted The Big Orange Jackass is proof positive.

Wanting to control women? Probably. Jealous of the ability to give birth? Ya, I'll buy that too.

BUT - MORE than anything else, it's about mollifying the singular constituency group they have, Christian wing-nuts. The suggestions that these dipshits even think at all, let alone contemplate philosophical issues is HIGHLY unlikely.

They want power so they can make themselves more rich. To assume anything else is to assume WAY to much intellectual capability.

[Heather MC]

31. Honestly I wasn't speaking about the men of today necessarily

I was historically referring to all the idiot men that got us to where we are today where a bunch of mormons would storm a capitol based on lies from an idiot lol.

It's the ripple effects of living under idiots who we keep giving power to. Because believe it or not our government is filled with some of the most dumbest people in the world.

Think about it the smartest people are the ones out there doing the actual work. The dumb ones are the ones making the laws to regulate the people getting things done.

If you think about it is government really needed to the degree that they believe that they are?

We have given them way too much power.

[Bulldog Liberal]

34. Yep.....

....good call!!!

[CrispyQ]

41. The very types of men whose policies & greed have brought us to an ecological brink

still think they deserve to be in charge. They still think they are the best of the best.

We have given them way too much power. Have we ever!



Damn. I am full of images, today.

[FakeNoose]

33. When the Repukes lose the Christian Taliban voters

... they've got nothing left. The Repukes HAVE to bow to the crazy wingnuts because they can't afford to lose them.
We Democrats and sensible Independents outnumber them by vast numbers already. All we have to do is get our
like-minded people to vote.

[CrispyQ]

39. I love that & am stealing it!

I promise to spread it far & wide!

Here are some others I like.

[FakeNoose]

46. These are awesome - thanks for sharing

[Heather MC]

45. Werd!

[efhmc]

29. I have always said that this is about jealousy and control.

[CrispyQ]

35. Man created God to control woman.

The ultimate patriarchy. The Creator is male.

Of course he is.

My confirmation pastor was dumbstruck when I asked why we didn't have a special pronoun for God, instead of using he. Why was it God the Father & God the Son, and not God the Parent & God the Child? Here's why:

[slightlv]

61. I always learned

"as above, so below"

The only exception to that rule was God thing. God... the male... created man. But women create life on earth. As above, so below? Ha! I think not. Give me a Goddess any day and THEN it makes sense.

Matriarchies were not all passive and freedom loving/giving. However, they were based more on a cooperative trade and efforts based society. Such was the case until, at least in the Middle East, we saw the rise of the "Warrior Gods" such as Marduk. These "gods" did not play well with the conquered people's gods. Whereas before, those who were conquered, their gods were intertwined with the conquerors' gods and part of their pantheon. With the rise of the "Warrior Gods" conquered people found their Gods were wiped out, destroyed - especially the Goddesses. A few may have been married off to one of their Gods, but mostly they were destroyed and forgotten.

Men have been trying to do this to women ever since. They can't erase us from the face of the earth, so they're intent to dominate us in every way possible. We may create life, which like someone above me said, terrifies them and also makes them crazy with jealousy, but they'll demean that power by stripping it of all magic they can, even if it means our death... maybe especially if it means our death. Because what is more powerful than holding the life of a person in your very hands?

I don't hate men. I love men. I do hate the toxic masculinity that imbues so many of the men of today. I married a very caring, very sensitive man. He was women's lib before we had women's lib. That's why I've always been attracted to Democratic men. They're kind, sensitive to the needs of others, and generally know when to stay in their own lane. But I ramble now...sorry.

[Ray Bruns]

9. I learned that when I was in catholic grade school when I was 14

[Irish_Dem]

12. If it was a fair system, w/ men restricted like women, men would start WWIII.

So the males just pick on women who will take the abuse and subjugation.

[keithbvadu2]

14. Abbot: How's that rape elimination in Texas coming along?

Abbot: How's that rape elimination in Texas coming along?

Any progress reports?

Any efforts made?

[efhmc]

32. Curious if there is any data on that?

[Prairie_Seagull]

17. Hell to the yes.

[vlyons]

19. It's about RW power mongers riling up the Holier-Than-Thou fundamentalists

to get their votes. Meanwhile here on earth, global population is 8 billion and growing. Industrialists are cutting forests and building in places where humans should NOT dwell. Climate change is forcing large population migrations. And the world has a surplus of unwanted children and their parents, who are the wrong color/tradition. What a fine mess we're in.

[OMGWTF]

21. If you cut off my reproductive rights can I cut off yours?

[CrispyQ]

36. LOL

I hadn't heard that one before!

[Higherarky]

43. +11x11 infinity

[Upthevibe]

22. Kick. N/T

[Tree Lady]

23. Hubby was watching episode of Anthony Bourdain

Last night in Japan and they were talking about Karate in a group of men eating and he asked about the women. Just the immediate look in the older guys face of such disgust. Women in so many areas of the world are looked down upon and less than.

[Hortensis]

24. We DO talk about all those things, though.

Control of women by men is a HUGE issue that must be addressed and won if women are to be free, and the right to abortion is a civil right. But the inescapable reality is that reproduction is always about making babies and abortion is always about ending that process.

Any discussion, like this one, that insists abortion has nothing to do with ending a life is deeply flawed at the very least. There is nothing more dishonest, or potentially more evil, than refusal to consider when human life is at stake. The questions surrounding what is life and when is it at stake must be faced. It's not ALL about control by men, and just a small adjustment to "largely" could have made this article an ethical one.

As for these bills, men aren't included (where they aren't) likely in part so they won't infer responsibility for fatherhood, but it's mainly because, regardless of pressures on women, abortion is ultimately the woman's decision and action -- both in practical and moral terms.

It's a huge woman's rights principle. We own and have the right to control our bodies, not men.

I welcome all RW talk -- and even better actions -- regarding prison and even more severe penalties for abortion. THE MORE, THE SOONER, THE BETTER. For people who believe abortion is murder, of course the person who obtains the abortion is a murderer. People need to face where this will inevitably go if we don't stop them.

[Sky Jewels]

30. Almost all anti-choice men are religious. Religion's main purpose is for men to control women.

The enduring power of patriarchy relies on the promulgation of abjectly stupid and primitive mythologies about male fictional characters such as God/Yahweh/Allah, Jesus, Mohammad, etc.

[Duppers]

50. Indeed! 👍

[RANDYWILDMAN]

44. I have said this for years!

Abortion is a red herring concern. Controlling woman has always been the issue!

Fuck those people, they are small minded.

My daughter deserves a more thoughtful country.

Vote republicans out until they are gone !

[Skittles]

47. it's about CONSERVATIVES controlling women

alas, that includes plenty of women participating in their own oppression (until, of course, THEY need help)

[TalenaGor]

51. Do women have the right to Stand Their Ground when their life is threatened either by a pregnancy, a

rapist, right wing extremists attacks, or these vigilante bounty hunters that Abbotts law turned loose on women? Asking for a friend....

[Ford_Prefect]

62. It is about CERTAIN men controlling women. Not about all men.

I get very tired of the meme used to classify anyone male as a threat to women. It is a poor choice of words to do so. It negates the actions of many men who do not see women as targets for their own aggression and misogyny.

Especially those men who see women as friends and equals, who have for decades advocated for women's rights alongside other civil rights, who have supported all of women's choices as equal in status to men's.

The Right Wing has worked successfully to divide our culture along many fracture lines. The idea that women's health only affects women and therefore is only to be discussed in those terms ignores the impact it has on our entire community and culture. To present the idea that "normal" is somehow defined by the conservative RW view is ludicrous and as pointless as saying Gravity and Momentum operate independently.

The paranoid deficiencies embodied in RW rhetoric have become the frame used all too often to discuss society at large and individual rights as well.

We are Americans and Humans. The conventions of individual rights embodied in our Constitution underline the strength of individual actions and contributions to our communities and nation. To segregate one group of citizens from the full benefit and protection of Constitutional law is a violation of everything the framers and many citizens since have held to be dear enough to die, and live for.

[MrsCheaplaugh]

64. "Not all men..."

If the issue here were civil rights for African Americans, and Dr. Martin Luther King visited a town to decry a lynching there, would you tell him, "Well gosh, it's outrageous how that a white mob lynched that man. But please remember, Dr. King, not all white people are bad."

What kind of a response do you think you would get?

[Ford_Prefect]

66. Evidently you didn't hear what I was saying.

I refer to the idea that there are particular men who do intend to control women by demeaning them in every capacity. There are a few others who are quite comfortable with the idea that NO ONE has a better right than they do to decide how people should live and how much money they should be paying for that privilege. Any opportunity to divide the rest of us will they exploit.

Much as DeSantis and his ilk think they are clever because they used immigrants in need to score political points with their own voters. That they are willing to be so cruel is unfortunately not a surprise. Certain men like him believe their desire for control grants them the right to manipulate the lives of others as cruelly as they can get away with to make a point about how powerful they are.

To segregate one group of citizens from the full benefit and protection of Constitutional law is a violation of everything the framers and many citizens since have held to be dear enough to die, and live for.

I think I recall Dr. King speaking in just that frame of reference.

[MrsCheaplaugh]

71. Evidently you missed my point

"Not all men" is irrelevant. As a woman, it changes nothing if "not all men" want to oppress me. Not all white people are bad either, but what difference did that make for the black man when the mob lynched him?

You're not my ally when you ignore the Patriarchy.

[Ford_Prefect]

73. I am not part of your enemy. Never have been. You appear to assign

all men to the patriarchy. That isn't a true observation.

[MrsCheaplaugh]

75. Actually, it is a true observation.

And believe it or not, it's not all about you.

[gulliver]

72. A knee-jerk, ridiculously mistaken and self-defeating point of view

If Republicans were to write a message for Dems to adopt and use on banners, this OP tweet would be that message. Anti-choice "isn't about abortion?" It's about "white men flexing their power...over womenfolk?" Ridiculous.

Please. Sorry, but it's...just...so...dumb. It's painfully, obviously dumb. Are we seriously going to let dumb ideas like this drive a wedge between pro-choice men and women? Really? Right before a big election?

The fact is that reproductive freedom isn't just a women's issue, and women have allies in men. We accept that obvious fact if we're smart (and, by extension, moral). Moreover, men have a selfish vested interest in pregnancy too. I won't insult anyone's intelligence by elaborating.

[jcgoldie]

79. Along with the majority of organized religion

Thats what its all about.