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DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Please stop w/the Trump r...

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 07:01 AM

Star Member Botany (66,840 posts)

Please stop w/the Trump running in 2024 "stuff" because he can't. 14th Amendment Section 3

Trump saying he will run again is just a vehicle for him to grift from his rubes and or hoping to forestall
his upcoming criminal trials and prosecution. The DoJ, the Congress (they can refer things to the DoJ),
Fani Willis in Georgia, and the IRS all have the receipts on Trump and company's crimes. I really doubt
that shits like Mark Meadows, Flynn, Rudy, Stone, and so on will take the fall for Trump


No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or
elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil
or military, under the United States, or under any State, who,
having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or
as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an
executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the
United States, shall have engaged
in insurrection or rebellion against the same . . .

snip

Section Three is once again relevant due to the extraordinary events at the Capitol and the widespread condemnation of the attack as an insurrection by Republicans and Democrats in Congress. This characterization, reinforced by the article of impeachment adopted by the House of Representatives that expressly invoked Section Three, strongly suggests that anyone who “shall have engaged” in that insurrection after having sworn an oath to protect the Constitution is now ineligible to serve.

https://www.acslaw.org/expertforum/enforcing-the-14th-amendments-bar-on-insurrectionist-officers-and-candidates/

29 replies, 1893 views

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Arrow 29 replies Author Time Post
Reply Please stop w/the Trump running in 2024 "stuff" because he can't. 14th Amendment Section 3 (Original post)
 Botany Oct 2022 OP
LineReply RWers want to completely redo the Constitution in their own image .....
 Lovie777 Oct 2022 #1
LineLineReply Thom Hartman had a show about that a few weeks ago that was quite startling.
 ProudMNDemocrat Oct 2022 #3
LineLineLineNew Reply Plus
 Mad_Machine76 Oct 2022 #27
LineReply Thank you for posting this clause, we'll look upon it with wistful memories as we remember the time
 msfiddlestix Oct 2022 #2
LineLineReply Sadly, this.
 Scrivener7 Oct 2022 #4
LineLineReply I suspect he'll announce his run November 9th
 jimfields33 Oct 2022 #14
LineLineLineNew Reply In my view, he's been campaigning for 2024, unofficially.
 msfiddlestix Oct 2022 #23
LineLineLineNew Reply He is still a Private Citizen when a candidate.
 ProudMNDemocrat Oct 2022 #28
LineReply Flat untrue - How many times must this be debunked?
 FBaggins Oct 2022 #5
LineLineReply Exactly this.
 SharonClark Oct 2022 #8
LineLineReply "They" have the receipts
 Botany Oct 2022 #9
LineLineLineReply No doubt - but it doesn't matter
 FBaggins Oct 2022 #12
LineLineLineLineNew Reply This.
 Treefrog Oct 2022 #24
LineLineNew Reply Am 14, S. 3 is not a criminal penalty; it is a Constitutional qualification for office.
 Hermit-The-Prog Oct 2022 #29
LineReply As noted in the article,
 J_William_Ryan Oct 2022 #6
LineReply He can't afford to do so, anyway.
 GoCubsGo Oct 2022 #7
LineReply It is not an insurrection until a jury says it was an insurrection.
 Chainfire Oct 2022 #10
LineLineReply Perhaps the doj is using this
 ColinC Oct 2022 #11
LineLineLineReply It is a special legal theory known as "Dives et potens"
 Chainfire Oct 2022 #13
LineReply Please stop with the "Trump can't run because of the 14th Amendment" threads because he can.
 brooklynite Oct 2022 #15
LineLineReply The documents found on his property @ Merde a Logo should very well stop Trump
 Botany Oct 2022 #16
LineLineLineReply Absolutely. But unless he's convicted, they can't.
 Scrivener7 Oct 2022 #17
LineLineLineNew Reply Violation of the Presidential records act does it constitute "insurrection".
 brooklynite Oct 2022 #21
LineLineLineLineNew Reply "Violation of the Presidential records act" is a serious charge but what they will get him on is
 Botany Oct 2022 #25
LineLineLineLineLineNew Reply Again, espionage requires proof beyond possession.
 brooklynite Oct 2022 #26
LineLineReply And how likely is a jury without a single MAGA member?
 FBaggins Oct 2022 #18
LineReply I always find it odd
 sarisataka Oct 2022 #19
LineNew Reply Who is going to respect that rule? Republicans?
 Autumn Oct 2022 #20
LineNew Reply Who or what is gonna stop him?
 newdayneeded Oct 2022 #22

Response to Botany (Original post)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 07:06 AM

Star Member Lovie777 (7,091 posts)

1. RWers want to completely redo the Constitution in their own image .....

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Response to Lovie777 (Reply #1)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 07:13 AM

Star Member ProudMNDemocrat (13,128 posts)

3. Thom Hartman had a show about that a few weeks ago that was quite startling.

It was telling how Republicans need several more state houses to take over for a Constitutional Convention to take place. But he also stated that it could take years to redraft the Constitution due to the complexities as to who would have rights, and who would not. Repealing the 13th, 14th, 16th, 17th, and 19th Amendments will not be easy. Nor rewriting the Bill of Rights will be a cakewalk.

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Response to ProudMNDemocrat (Reply #3)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 02:57 PM

Mad_Machine76 (23,452 posts)

27. Plus

38 states would have to ratify for any proposed changes to become law. We need to keep our eyes on this but unless some blue states get completely taken over by radical right-wing Republicans, it will be hard for them to reach the designated number of states to even call for a convention, much less ratify any changes to the Constitution.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 07:11 AM

Star Member msfiddlestix (6,157 posts)

2. Thank you for posting this clause, we'll look upon it with wistful memories as we remember the time

when such things could be relied upon as a respected and important component to our democratic form of government which will no longer exist once that is violated.


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Response to msfiddlestix (Reply #2)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 07:13 AM

Star Member Scrivener7 (46,506 posts)

4. Sadly, this.

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Response to msfiddlestix (Reply #2)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 08:29 AM

jimfields33 (12,145 posts)

14. I suspect he'll announce his run November 9th

I don’t think he will win in 2024.

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Response to jimfields33 (Reply #14)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 09:11 AM

Star Member msfiddlestix (6,157 posts)

23. In my view, he's been campaigning for 2024, unofficially.

those who say, 'he's not running', based on the Constituion or based on the fact that he hasn't filed, is to me, irrelavant because all norms, legally speaking, ethically speaking, practically speaking, etc no longer have any bearing on reality.

No longer can we assume safeguards against misignant forces remain in place as a defender of our democracy.

We can only hope our one and only existing avenue of defense, the power of the ballot, remains in place despite all efforts to invalidate it's legitimacy.

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Response to jimfields33 (Reply #14)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 03:02 PM

Star Member ProudMNDemocrat (13,128 posts)

28. He is still a Private Citizen when a candidate.

So he can indeed still be indicted for crimes when he was POTUS.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 07:16 AM

FBaggins (25,485 posts)

5. Flat untrue - How many times must this be debunked?

Unless he is actually convicted on the crime of insurrection or the senate votes by 2/3... the only way to beat him is at the polls (either primary or general).

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #5)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 07:33 AM

Star Member SharonClark (9,495 posts)

8. Exactly this.

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #5)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 07:49 AM

Star Member Botany (66,840 posts)

9. "They" have the receipts

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10142987874

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/top-national-security-prosecutor-joins-trump-mar-a-lago-investigation/ar-AA13uqDd

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/21/trump-criminal-referral-sent-to-prosecutors-and-irs-by-letitia-james.html

America has had 3 people who were found guilty of espionage @ the level which Trump might have very well
been at and they were the Rosenbergs (executed) and FBI Agent Robert Hansen (15 life sentences Colorado Super Max)

Although, I think I have the same fears that you do and that is what would happen if the republicans took back
power? I think so many republicans were involved in the attempted J-6 coup and had knowledge of the Trump
Russia connection they will fight like hell to keep things "all covered up."

FBaggins

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Response to Botany (Reply #9)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 08:04 AM

FBaggins (25,485 posts)

12. No doubt - but it doesn't matter

If your county passes a law that says that you can't be a police officer if you exceed the speed limit - it wouldn't matter even if you were caught on camera doing it and everyone in town believed it. Unless you're convicted in court of speeding, the penalty can't be applied.

It sure looks to us as though they have "the receipts," - but unless they charge and convict him, it doesn't matter (as far as 14A goes). And the conviction must be for insurrection. Incitement to riot won't do it... and certainly not fraud by a company that he owns.

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #12)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 09:45 AM

Treefrog (4,170 posts)

24. This.

 

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #5)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 04:44 PM

Star Member Hermit-The-Prog (26,655 posts)

29. Am 14, S. 3 is not a criminal penalty; it is a Constitutional qualification for office.

https://www.citizensforethics.org/news/analysis/the-couy-griffin-case-frequently-asked-questions/

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 07:17 AM

J_William_Ryan (1,450 posts)

6. As noted in the article,

the problem would be enforcing a Section Three action.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 07:27 AM

Star Member GoCubsGo (30,800 posts)

7. He can't afford to do so, anyway.

If he runs, he loses his "Save America" PAC (a.k.a., SAP--as in you're a sap if you contribute to it) cash cow. And, the RNC will cease to pay his legal bills, which are likely through the roof at this point. They're almost certainly going to get worse.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 07:50 AM

Star Member Chainfire (12,138 posts)

10. It is not an insurrection until a jury says it was an insurrection.

It doesn't go to a jury without an indictment. Where is the indictment?

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Response to Chainfire (Reply #10)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 07:56 AM

Star Member ColinC (7,149 posts)

11. Perhaps the doj is using this

Maybe suggesting to him that they will not charge him with insurrection if he does not run🤷‍♂️

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Response to ColinC (Reply #11)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 08:05 AM

Star Member Chainfire (12,138 posts)

13. It is a special legal theory known as "Dives et potens"

If you don't rob the bank again we will not charge you for robbing the bank this time.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 08:31 AM

Star Member brooklynite (84,527 posts)

15. Please stop with the "Trump can't run because of the 14th Amendment" threads because he can.

Insurrection isn’t a “we know it when we see it” definition. He hasn’t been indicted much less convicted of anything. Nothing will prevent him from running g if he wants to.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #15)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 08:35 AM

Star Member Botany (66,840 posts)

16. The documents found on his property @ Merde a Logo should very well stop Trump

n/t

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Response to Botany (Reply #16)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 08:37 AM

Star Member Scrivener7 (46,506 posts)

17. Absolutely. But unless he's convicted, they can't.

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Response to Botany (Reply #16)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 08:53 AM

Star Member brooklynite (84,527 posts)

21. Violation of the Presidential records act does it constitute "insurrection".

And if you’re going to tell me he sold documents, that’s also not insurrection and hasn’t. Den proven. We don’t block candidates based on “we know he did” assertions.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #21)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 02:45 PM

Star Member Botany (66,840 posts)

25. "Violation of the Presidential records act" is a serious charge but what they will get him on is

espionage. He had documents about foreign intelligence assets both American and foreign and
HIGHLY CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS ABOUT OUR SPY SATELLITES. I have a family member who
worked in that program and to this day she/he can not say one word about it. Why he is still
walking free is beyond me. Even though Putin invaded Ukraine for a 2nd time after TFG was no
longer in office we have had remote sensing satellites in geosynchronous orbit over Ukraine and
that part of the world for years and I have no doubt that some of the stolen documents had
information on that program and since Trump is an active Russian asset he gave up that info
to Putin.

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Response to Botany (Reply #25)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 02:52 PM

Star Member brooklynite (84,527 posts)

26. Again, espionage requires proof beyond possession.

"I have no doubt" is not an argument to make in Court.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #15)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 08:38 AM

FBaggins (25,485 posts)

18. And how likely is a jury without a single MAGA member?

Any judge who would allow a "did you vote for Trump?" question to disqualify a juror would have to allow a "did you vote against Trump" question to do the same.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 08:40 AM

Star Member sarisataka (15,219 posts)

19. I always find it odd

When people post a link that undercuts their claim.

It clearly says enforcement would be up to the courts and suggests Congress adopt a resolution that he is ineligible (something they have not done). However the author notes-

... a concurrent resolution of Congress declaring that Trump is ineligible does not make him ineligible. 

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 08:49 AM

Autumn (42,325 posts)

20. Who is going to respect that rule? Republicans?

That's a joke because they respect nothing.

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Response to Botany (Original post)

Mon Oct 31, 2022, 08:58 AM

newdayneeded (1,094 posts)

22. Who or what is gonna stop him?

So far all I've seen is the J6 committee document his wrong doings and a visit to his property to take back some documents, and then leave with a cordial good bye.

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