One day we will no longer be debating about Trump being indicted or not. We will be debating this.

[fightforfreedom]

Will Trump be convicted.

Garland still has the last call when it comes to indictments. The appointment of a special counsel does not change anything in a major way. It was no coincidence Garland made this move after Trump announced he is running for president. Garland could not assume Trump was going to run for president, prosecutors do not assume things. When Trump announced, Garland acted quickly.

The man he appointed to special counsel did not give up his job at the Hague, travel back to America for the hell of it. He is coming here to do a job and he seems to be a very serious prosecutor.

The idea Trump will never be indicted for the obvious crimes he has committed is unimaginable to me. If that happened it would have catastrophic results for our country. The rule of law would basically collapse. National security would collapse. In 2024, if Biden lost he could say the election was stolen, legally try to stop the vote count. He could leave office with all the top secret documents he wanted. It would be legal.

I am not worried about Trump being indicted. i am worried about, will he be convicted.

[WarGamer]

1. Then we'll be debating the wrist slap penalty...

This will go on forever...

[Pantagruel]

2. Agree

"I am not worried about Trump being indicted. i am worried about, will he be convicted."

An unbiased jury is problematic, the case must be perfect.

[niyad]

3. This is exactly why I want him to just stroke out. I am tired of him sucking

all the oxygen and attention.

[fightforfreedom]

4. I would not complain if that happened.

[Maru Kitteh]

21. I would not complain, but I would be a bit disappointed that justice

was not delivered. I want to see him dressed down in person by a jury and a judge. Rejected. Scolded. Scorned.

Then he can stroke out.

[Solomon]

49. My sentiments exactly.

[anarch]

45. he'll probably live to be at least 150 years old

he and Dick Cheney can run for office on a ticket together in 2064, with most of their internal organs replaced with fresh ones harvested from healthy young "poors", or half-machine like Darth Vader or something

[niyad]

47. Of course, if they have their way, there will not be elections by then. Masters

for life.

[anarch]

48. true...they might do mock elections to show on the TV for entertainment

but that's about it; the oligarchs would just appoint some similar figurehead or hand the reins of the state over to one of TFG's kids when he finally does kick the bucket

[Joinfortmill]

5. Me too. This is spot on.

[Waterguy]

27. I feel liberated - Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi

All the stuff that goes down and she got so much done.
We wish for people to represent us, all of the people in any democracy, that's what democracy is supposed to be about.
All of these avenues of thought, healthcare - pollution, crime, inequality, racism, etc...
Nancy Pelosi has been consistent and gotten more done than any other so far - and far from most notice.
Nothing's perfect.
These troubles have been brewing for a long long time and we have a long way to go.
We need more truth and acceptance in this world, we need to find a place where ordinary people in our democracy can
talk about truth, that's the only way forward.
I am thankful for Nancy Pelosi's leadership.
Thank you Nancy Pelosi!!!

[Silent3]

6. We'll perhaps be debating what happens to the case after Trump dies

At this rate, the glacial pace of so-called "justice" could well outlast the bloated orange tick.

[Silent3]

7. "...is unimaginable to me"

Your imagination must be very limited then, especially if your imagination doesn't encompass how the real world so often fails us.

[fightforfreedom]

9. The real world?

You must be thinking of a different world. I don't see a world where Garland says, nothing here, Trump you're free to go. Stop by my office and I will return all your secret documents to you. I will also make a public announcement and tell the American people what they witnessed on J6 was Legal. No crimes committed.

Not happening.

[Silent3]

10. Nothing so obvious, just one delay after another...

...until another administration pardons Trump, drops the case, or Trump's demise makes it a moot point.

Was Spiro Agnew convicted? Nah, making him resign was "good enough".

Was Nixon convicted? Nah, making him resign was "good enough".

Did anyone even think of charging Kissinger with anything, considering all the dirty deals with dictators and blood on his hands?

Was Reagan ever penalized for Iran/Contra? Nope.

Jefferson Davis spent two years in jail, but that's getting off pretty light for waging war against the United States for four years, leading to hundreds of thousands of deaths.

But yeah, Trump skating is "unimaginable".

[Treefrog]

26. And again,

spot on.

[Waterguy]

29. response to Silent3

Hey, I'm with you here.
I understand fully what you say. I'm in my sixties and I've seen the passing of the buck - there is no place it stops, sorry Harry S. Truman, but we're here now.
Where's here, hell who knows, but truth isn't magnified, it just never was is the gut sinking tragedy of the past.
Trump to my mind is a hideous little freak of a man but for some reason he is the backbone behind a bunch of jerks who are not
accountable. The Democratic Party has its own failures but at least its moving forward.
The Liberal was dismissed by Reagain / you know the old Friedrich Hayek slippery slope towards communism reply to John Maynard Keynes ever since FDR.
It's the way we go, the direction, and it's slow as heck and we all know the weather could change any moment.
The future's in the wind, it always is.

[Waterguy]

37. Silent3 you know you're correct, as history shows

It bothers everyone, more people than everyone knows.
Sadly its part in parcel of keeping track of history, the real actual truth in such matters
which should mean a lot but somehow are sadly forgotten.
Why did the Democrats lose the midterms, sure, inflation - what's the Republican plan to fight inflation?
What, the Republicans have no plan, that doesn't seem to be material to their supporters somehow.

I'm all the time judging myself, my convictions, my preferences in policies, just being honest with all my warts and whatever...
I don't want to be like the other side, I don't want to be an unthinking member of any tribe.

There's the big time swindlers who are corrupt and their corruption impacts thousands if not millions, and then there are the stupid kids who make totally tragic mistakes due to a whole class/pseudo cast system we have here in the US every day,
And true justice sucks like a duck quacks - that is if said duck is lucky enough to find an unpolluted pond to spend its time.
And meanwhile, we spend all our time not moving forward with positive change for all!

[Treefrog]

25. Thank you.

Spot on.

[Funtatlaguy]

8. Finding 12 "impartial" jurors that Trumps defense team would allow to serve

would be difficult .
Nobody I know is quiet on Trump. You hate him or love him.

[treestar]

16. Yes, and a hung jury could happen

because MAGATs will not convict no matter what. The jurors have to be non-Magats, which means Democrats or Independents or people so out of the loop on politics that they actually don't have an opinion on TFG. Which is some pretty dumb people.

[Waterguy]

42. The jurists, and the meaning of justice

Have you ever sat in a criminal proceeding?
They happen all the time, every day there are scores of really difficult court cases heard.
Anybody ever read Crime and Punishment - good book to read if you want to study law the right way.
What's the point in the legal system anyway - I think that's an imperative goal to reason with, even though
it is never a solution in itself to dealing with criminal activity of any kind.

There's a code in the law that is directed, or at least supposed to be directed at protecting the innocent.
And no matter how much the code has been defaced in history it's supposed to stand for something.

Let's say someone steals from me, or worse someone kills me or someone I love.
Do I want justice, absolutely.
What is the object of justice?
Shouldn't it mean to stop this from happening from to someone else, hopefully that is legislation.
Shouldn't it mean that the person, or persons who caused harm are penalized?
Well then you have to think of sanctions, penalties, that fit the crime - all part of the criminal justice system.
So it's supposedly all addressed in logic, statutes, broken with criminal intent, or even broken even if the perpetrator
was not aware of the law.

Well it depends.
I'm not kidding, it depends on a jury, it depends on a judge, it depends on where the court hearing is heard,

and it depends on a whole bunch of legal actions if you have money and good lawyers, we all know.

So where, that matters, it matters because those people who run where-ever there is, whatever court feel about the proceeding,
and it also could depend on how the elected officials in that area also feel, depending on what-ever it is that got them elected.

I'm just saying from what I've seen myself, and I'm not a lawyer.
Just an average guy, who has seen a whole lot of injustice go down where it counts.
And as they say, when stuff hits the wall and it had an effect upon you personally, you
do spend some time analyzing the situation trying to understand why.

[WA-03 Democrat]

11. Trump should have been done last summer!

We are all complicit in this. We should demand laws have meaning and they apply equally to all.

Trump will have his tee team in 2025 don't worry be happy.

[FakeNoose]

12. It's more important for the American people to see that Chump

Last edited Sat Nov 19, 2022, 06:09 PM - Edit history (1)

... should never hold an elective office in this country again. He should not even be eligible to run, but sadly it's too late for that. The American people have to see what a criminal and lying weasel he really is. A public trial can do that, whether or not he's convicted.

Bring out all the dirty laundry - the lies, the grifting, the cheating, the conspiracies, the failures to uphold the Constitution. Let the people see it all, and that's what needs to happen. Nixon never went to trial, he wasn't indicted, but the American people saw what a weasel he was. It's the court of public opinion that really matters.

[llmart]

14. Just what is involved in a "pubic trial"?

Curious minds want to know.

[peppertree]

17. Clarence Thomas?

[Waterguy]

38. Clarence Thomas - holy crap

He was George H Bush's contribution to head the Equal Employ Opportunity Commission/
think about that for just a second.
This was a commission that was created by the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Go ahead, take the thirty thousand foot view of this.
Why?

[peppertree]

50. Or UNholy, in this case

Every time that thing goes to the bathroom, they have to declare a Superfund site.

[FakeNoose]

19. It's a stupid typo, that's what

Thanks!

[llmart]

20. I just thought it was appropriate with regard to the orange sexual predator.

I was an HR manager for years and one time I received a resume for a job opening for a librarian in a public library. Her goal statement at the top of her resume said, "My goal is to become a young adult librarian in a pubic library." Needless to say, I didn't even consider her for the job.

[Waterguy]

39. the librarian applicant should have had the opportunity

I understand the ageism here but I would have had the person in to discuss what they meant.
Crossing out the censorship we see today, with great works from Alice Walker etc...
I think this person might have had a chance to speak.
I'm a boomer, when I was a kid I walked for miles in the snow to my local library because it was filled with books
I never knew existed.
I picked up on books by accident that stayed with me my whole life there.
Great writers sitting in shelfs in a place where you can freely choose, I was hooked.
Being a librarian is a huge responsibility, I know that is true.
Perhaps that young person was worthy, perhaps not.
But based on your small description I don't understand what you mean.

[former9thward]

22. Nixon ended as a public statesman.

He wrote books and gave advice to presidents and foreign leaders. All the presidents and first ladies were at his funeral. Many leaders of foreign countries were there.

[FakeNoose]

31. Chump doesn't deserve any of that

... and he won't ever be given the accolades that are reserved for former Presidents. We'll make sure of it.

[Waterguy]

40. Nixon it could be said, was a product of his times, but he was a racist and a crook

Nixon as well as his appointed secretary of state Kissinger could be called statesmen, however they were criminal in many ways.
Kissinger led the way to bombing Cambodia, you name it phosphorus poison gases, etc.
He led the way in the support of the Shah of Iran.
This so-called humble diplomat who was in the place where it happened with tricky Dick, who was a racist, an anti-semite.
Oh but sure, most of the world was anti-semite as well. Most of the world, at least in the European white world were racist in their views of any brown skin people as well.

Only Dick got caught doing the illegal act of first using the CIA to burgularize the Democratic headquarters at the Watergate Hotel, and then, he then committed obstruction by lying about it.

Henry wasn't found guilty of nothing only because what?

[mopinko]

13. still think it will be a plea of diminished capacity.

his brain is clearly broken, esp post covid. all the evidence they need is sitting at walter reed.
the kids can go to court any time they feel a need to cover their asses.
and honestly, i'm good w that. cuz it is the crux of the matter. he is a madman.

[Shoonra]

15. Trump will not be convicted

Trump might be indicted, might be arrested, might be brought to trial. BUT . . .

Conviction requires the unanimous vote of twelve jurors. Frankly, anywhere in this country, in a random group of twelve people there will be one who wouldn't vote against The Very Stable Genius, no matter how strong the evidence or how serious the offense. Trump is assured at least one mistrial because of jury deadlock, and possibly a string of mistrials.

[LudwigPastorius]

18. "...will he be convicted."

He certainly won't if he gets in the White House again.

It seems incomprehensible, but he's polling ahead of DeSantis in the Republican primary, and ahead of president Biden in many state head-to-head polls.

To ensure he never gets back in power, an indictment, trial, and conviction need to happen in the next two years...which is an extremely tall order.

[Captain Zero]

23. Then it will be does he get JAIL TIME and how much?

If he is convicted.

[Waterguy]

24. Just like anything, we will not know if Trump will be indicted and then convicted until he is.

Trumps presidency is kind of like the Twilight Zone, or that Netflix Black Mirror show.
Nobody thought he would win the Republican nod and then when he did nobody thought he had a chance to win in the general election against Hillary Clinton.
That's the game actually, the piece actually in the game of chess. Neoliberalism I think started with Reagan, with his stances on supply side economics, the reason why the global economy is so messed up. BTW - it's not global economics per say that is so bad, it's the way it's been run (under the table trade agreements etc.).
Back in the day you had your run of the mill Imperialism, completely run by nation states. Now it's oligarchs, with their insistance of protecting intellectual property while still holding onto limited liabilities, and what's more their powers regarding legislation regarding trade laws.
The pandemic for what it's worth spoke to the inequality we have here in the US and around the globe. It was a glaring example of
the problems the US and the world faces today and what is to come if positive changes are not made soon.
The world needs to work together without hegemonic rule.
We have no time to avail to Putin's abusive illegal invasion in Ukraine. We need to fight climate change, we need to fight inequality
and really work towards positive change regarding the economics of sustainability for all.
Diversity is key in this fight. I invite all to go to https://www.ineteconomics.org/

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. I doubt TFG will ever be found guilty of anything.

I also doubt he would be acquitted of anything. I see hung juries in the future.

[Waterguy]

32. the rich get a free pass

everything comes down to a jury of ones peers, which isn't necessarily fair.
but man, there are so many illegalities perpetrated by Trump, honestly, he should be convicted - I'm not a lawyer, but I've seen it all in broad daylight, and for a long while now.

[Initech]

30. As we can see from their support of Kyle Rittenhouse, rule of law doesn't matter anymore.

They only care about partisan politics, and they are controlled by hate propaganda from Fox, AM radio, Sinclair, Infowars, all the usual suspects. The propaganda is a massive part of the reason why we are in the situation that we're currently in.

[Waterguy]

33. partisan politics, and not policies - the road down to hell

It ain't no game played for fun on a Sunday, or it ain't no hockey, or Lacrosse.
It's not about being an entertainment medium that you watch to feel better about your views.
People live in cities where it is unsafe due to guns on the streets, there's a great deal of inequality - who doesn't fully understand this in our world?
The atmosphere is full of trillions of tons of carbon dioxide, methane and worse / air pollution in the wrong parts of town killing people all the time.
We all know this stuff is true.
And yes, the people who make it happen or turn the other way like Trump definitely are the albatross in the sky.

[Waterguy]

34. they use whatever they can to kill the switch on positive change

whether it's fighting against pharmaceutical companies, oil oligarchy, you name it.
They use it all day long, it could be anything, and they know just which people to drill down on to make them their base.
Meanwhile people like me, just want fairness, honesty, truth and justice.
ha ha, they love that. They eat people like me up.
Oh sure, people wait for a great orator someone who can change minds, you know that once in a generational leader.
MLK Jr. is gone, he's been gone for a long while but so many people have carried his truth and conviction and somehow are not listened to.

It is a very slow march; we know that much most assuredly.

[Waterguy]

35. that kid should not have showed up with a rifle

Right there and then, when the police let that dumb kid walk home
you knew it was a problem.
There were facts in the case for sure, he was accosted for sure and he tried to defend himself - but why was he there in the first place with a rifle???
Do we have a crazy gun culture in the US, possibly...

Hell yes!

[grantcart]

36. There will be no debate

DOJ goes painstakingly slow. They identity as many counts as possible and then they trim down the list to only those that are 100% provable. A deal is offered for a fraction of the time and in most cases they take the plea.

Average Federal Prosecutors have a 95% conviction rate. Everyone on this team will be from the 100% club.

These are guys that are smart and tough but also exceedingly patient and cold blooded, they simply won't proceed on anything that isn't a sure thing, but to do that they will take all the time that they need, they will not be rushed.

If indicated there will be a conviction, plus very likely a plea for a non custodial sentence, possibly home confinement

[Waterguy]

41. There will be no debate - response

This is the truth.
The Democrats added a bunch of IRS agents because the IRS is undermanned in taking down rich tax evaders.
Nobody even thought of really doing much about the financial institutions that brought down the worlds economy in 2007 - because they didn't have the, what was it, gumption, or legal code in a court of law?

There is a lot you can do to game the legal system, if you have the resources. The old addage, you can't fight City Hall, has the addendum, well yes you can if you have more resources than they do.

And then, there's the description in the law - intent.
You have to prove intent/ at least to some degree. You have to prove that person A, didn't just misspeak or his or her words could easily have been misrepresented by happenstance, etc...

None of this of course would favor Trump winning if he is indicted, he's guilty as hell. But the truth is, he has a whole lot of not only money; he's got at least a part of the judiciary as well as the standing US government leadership and public support in his corner.

You say untouchable, I would say, look at Purdue Pharma with a lump of coal on top.

[grantcart]

43. Re:intent

A) As I understand the GA interference law, intent is not required, just making the call is illegal but Trump's recorded phone call clearly shows his intent

B) The classified documents case is also not going to turn on intent as Trump's own statements have undermined that.

C) Intent on Jan 6 charges will depend on evidence gathered but it appears substantial.

I never said he was untouchable, he will be indicted and convicted just much slower than people want. I never said he was untouchable.

[lees1975]

44. It's not a good sign that it has taken this long.

The incitement of insurrection is documented. Should be a slam dunk.

Remove the names, show the evidence and a group of sixth graders would come up with a guilty verdict. But this is politics and it involves a former president who has stuffed his pockets with donor money paying for lawyers to delay, obfuscate and game the system. It's the way we've set it up. The law is only the law if you can't afford to buy the loopholes.

[Emile]

46. Two years to appoint a special counsel tells me Garland wasted two years!

I think I'm losing all hope this fucking traitor will ever see justice!