The Good Fight

[H2O Man]

"The enlightened leader is heedful, and the good general full of caution." -- Sun Tzu


You've likely heard that Attorney General Merrick Garland has appointed Jack Smith to act as Special Counsel to oversee the investigations of January 6 and the stolen documents. There have been a few OP/threads discussing if this is a good or bad thing on DU: GD. I've even scattered a few comments on a few of them, and decided I might attempt to put some of them together.

The OPs and responses tend to fall into two groups: those who think it is a good thing, and those who think it is a bad thing. Those who think it is bad may have been disappointed by the outcomes of relatively recent investigations' failure to prosecute people they think were guilty as sin, that social status prevents indictments, and/or that AG Garland is weak. Or that this by definition means "delay" -- although the fact that the exact same group from the DOJ that was investigating is still investigating at the exact same pace indicates the opposite.

Situations such as this remind me of something Rubin "Hurricane" Carter told me in 1974, that "those with very little to compare, find very little to understand." To be clear, that does not imply that "those" people are other than intelligent -- it is information on a specific topic. For example, how many DUers knew who Jack Smith was before the announcement? Might the majority agree that knowing him provides more to compare, and perhaps understand, in why this appointment might turn out to be a good thing? Isn't there a clear distinction between Robert Mueller's inability, due to DOJ policy, to prosecute a sitting president, and this investigation of an ex-president?

After the initial reactions on the media, at least one informed source noted that it was done in response to Trump's entering the republican nomination in the 2024 presidential primaries. And that President Joe Biden intends to run for re-election. Trump has already called the DOJ investigations "political." Obviously, he will continue to do so. And so will a number of republicans in DC. It had been a planned response for when Trump announced, rather than :just happening."

I mentioned this on another thread. A person noted that not only were they surprised that anyone could possibly believe that, but also surprised that anyone would say such a thing on DU:GD. In my mind, I heard Rubin laugh and say, "Told you so!" After the Trump presidency, one can be forgiven for being unfamiliar with DOJ attempts to conduct business in a non-political manner. Indeed, the possibility of a former president is uncommon in our nation's history. The bringing in a prosecutor from the Hague to oversee these investigations is outside of any experience in our lifetimes.

On several other OP/threads, some of our good friends in the DU community correctly pointed out that a number of the experts we all respect had previously stated they were opposed to a Special Counsel. That is part of the meaningful discussion we should engage in on this forum. Brooklynite provided an important part of that needed discussion with Laurence Tribe's statement that he had at first thought a Special Counsel should be appointed, then later thought it was too late, but now thinks that AG Garland did exactly the right thing at the right time.

In other words, in these situations, you have to be flexible in both your thinking and strategy. For rigid things snap under pressure, and rigid behaviors are easily countered by an opponent. The very best boxers -- those who stand at the highest level -- never enter the ring with just their A plan. No, they have B, C, and D, because dynamics change in tough fights, and one has to be flexible, and adjust strategy to win. And in that sense, AG Garland ranks high among the "ring technicians" of my long lifetime. Just my opinion -- worthy no more or less than anyone's.

[Clash City Rocker]

1. Given that Trump has stacked the courts with right-wingers

All the way to the SC, it’s important to get as much info as possible before arresting Trump. Because otherwise you run the risk of losing, in which case you’re just enabling the nutcases and convincing them that Trump was framed.

[H2O Man]

2. Right.

It is also in organizing that information in a way that provides the best opportunity to identify the exact areas where indictments lead to convictions -- and exactly as you note, convictions that withstand attempts to over-turn them. That might sound easy in theory, but it isn't in practice.

[cilla4progress]

3. I hope you are making the right call, H2O Man!

[H2O Man]

10. I think that as

things unfold, people here will be pleased with the results. But I admit that one could question if I am 100% objective in my opinion of Jack Smith. He grew up where my brothers, my self, and many of our team members frequently boxed. And, as a close friend reminded me, he eventually graduated from the state university closest to us ..... I also went there, and I think my friend did, too. And my cousin called to make sure that the guy you didn't want to cross in a bar many years ago was now the same internationally known prosecutor that Garland appointed.

I don't say that I was a tough guy when I was young. But I fought almost all the tough guys in the ring, and beat most of them. I wasn't faster, stronger, or a harder puncher, but I was smarter than them. Jack is a tough guy who is also smarter than anyone in Trump's orbit.

[cilla4progress]

13. Encouraging.

Thanks.

[Saoirse9]

53. Yes that is rather encouraging

Thanks!

[cachukis]

4. AG Garland has a lot going on. One, in leadership, cannot go

forward with out a strong replacement.
The DOJ was in disrepair and maybe still not righted.
Garland has strategized and seen transgressions beyond our purview.
Jack Smith frees him to direct responses elsewhere, confident that the criminality on display will get prompt attention.

[H2O Man]

12. Exactly.

If I remember correctly, as the elections were approaching, many here recognized our opposition to be nazis and fascists. As such, they posed a very real threat to democracy. It would be foolish to think that the elections resolved that threat. The republicans now control the House, and it seems almost certain that the essence of the Trump cult will continue to attack society. A right-wing christian theology still holds the majority on the Supreme Court. Since the January 6 attempt to violently overthrow the federal government, the DOJ has disrupted the militia leadership. They have indicted, prosecuted, and incarcerated numerous violent thugs who engaged in the attempt to overthrow the government.

Those of us familiar with these dynamics recognize that maga candidates losing elections is obviously good, put does not end the threat. It's not as if the cult members are able to accept being beaten in fair elections. One is safe in assuming at AG Garland is fully aware of this.

[emulatorloo]

5. Well said, thanks so much for posting.

[H2O Man]

15. Thank you!

Much appreciated!

[MustLoveBeagles]

6. K&R

[H2O Man]

16. Thanks!

[Saoirse9]

7. I don't know how I feel about the Special Prosecutor.

I'm in a "wait and see" holding pattern.

I care but I don't care. My bottom line is, I will get excited when he's indicted or jailed or both.

I just don't have any more fucks to give. Reading and trying to interpret the outcome endlessly without enough data to even form an opinion just doesn't do it for me anymore.

Honestly? I am bored of the whole fucked up situation in this country. I'm bored with the media breathlessly repeating every imbecilic word to come out of the petulant mouth of Orange Jesus.

I'm sick to death of traitors like MTG and Boeberg having a microphone and dominating the news with performative bullshit. I refuse to listen while Gym Jordan or Gaetz screeches in committee hearings.

Bored with the whole thing, burned out, completely lacking optimism. I refuse to care until I have a reason to care again.

I'm tuning out until something good happens.

[cilla4progress]

14. Can't say I don't

agree with your sentiments, Saoirse9!

[H2O Man]

20. I shall note

that Rubin also told me, in 1979, that it was every person's obligation to question any and every "leader's" statements claiming to be factual. And that describes you! Always questioning, in the best manner possible. I like that!

A good thing happened yesterday. Just you wait and see!

[Saoirse9]

21. When that good thing that happened

produces real results I will celebrate with you. And then I can say, "right as usual H!"

Meanwhile I just can't get excited.

That man fomented an insurrection, stole highly classified national security documents, and has wreaked havoc on this country for 6 years. He is still outside of a jail cell.

I don't care about the rest.

[H2O Man]

42. Right.

We will celebrate. But as you note, that is still to come.

I will admit that yesterday's news did excite me. I want Trump indicted, prosecuted, and convicted. I think that the process is humiliating for Trump, even now.

Let me ask you a question. And again I shall refer to Rubin, who pointed out that there are all types of jails and prisons. Do you think that Donald Trump is happy these days?

[Saoirse9]

45. To answer your question

I don't think trump has been happy for a very long time. Maybe never. Possibly he doesn't even know what happiness is.

He's been operating under severe psychopathology since he was a small boy. His entire life revolves around seeking adoration and avoiding shame. Since he really isn't capable of anything else, much less love, his "happiness" is measured in how much he believes other people hold him in esteem. You and I know that he's the most hated man in this country and maybe the world. Does he know that? I rather doubt it. He sees what he wants to see, hears what he wants to hear. If he's feeling low he holds another "rally" to get his narcissistic supply. Or he does some kind of announcement complaining about the "witch hunt".

I know he's feeling tremendous pressure right now. But his mental illness prevents him from processing it in any kind of healthy way. So, I'm sure he tells himself he will evade criminal prosecution. Indeed he has managed to evade it all of his life.

Is he much more unhappy now than he was before he was "president"? Probably. But since his sense of self only comes from other people adoring him, and there seems to be an almost endless supply of that, I think he manages to make himself happy enough minute to minute to keep from killing himself. He will never give up entirely until he is in jail, if he ever is.

I don't think he's had too many happy days in his life. Some moments here and there sure. Playing president made him feel good. Didn't last long though.

[republianmushroom]

8. time will tell if this was good or a poor decision. One thing is was good for Garlands.

[H2O Man]

22. I think that

people will consider it "good" or "bad" without any other situation to compare it to. Thus, we can always anticipate that some here will say, "If Garland had only .....," which of course is meaningless, since he didn't, and one can only speculate that if Garland had done something different, it would have been "good" or "bad."

[Kid Berwyn]

9. "those with very little to compare, find very little to understand."

Hurricane (must’ve) grokked Orwell. Without the words, without the the symbolic representations, we cannot even form the ideas. As Göthe put it: “The best slave is the one who thinks he’s free.”

Regarding Jack Smith: I had never heard of the guy, but my first reaction was: “Justice delayed is justice denied.” Upon reflection it came clear that it was a move to protect the investigations so far from the GQP. A former Fed talking head said Smith would not be starting over, but rather putting it all under one roof — the national security Top Secret nightmare investigation and the insurrectionist-in-chief treason of January 6 investigation. Reading DU today, it’s clear there may be several other (if not a millipede’s worth of) shoes to drop.

Trump and his Treason Circus have got to go. The guy has too many in his thrall as it is. After reading your take on the wisdom of keeping an open mind and applying our critical faculties, it’s clear the Special Prosecutor is exactly what the delousing of America requires.

[H2O Man]

25. Ah!

One one of the cassette tapes Rubin sent me way back when, he noted it was easier to deal with a large band of merry fools, than a single sad wise man.

Not that long ago, many here wondered if the highly classified documents that Trump stole had been shared with other countries. We can only speculate. But I think that it is a good thing that Jack Smith will be focusing upon that. He has a bit of international experience.

[Saoirse9]

56. Of course he shared (sold) the documents

Dude monetizes everything.

[ShazzieB]

43. Did anyone really think he was going to start over from scratch?

Rhetorical question; I'm pretty sure the answer is yes.

That idea never entered my mind. I guess that's why I was baffled that so many assumed this was a stalling tactic or something. I think it makes a ton of sense to put a well-qualified person in charge of this. Smith sounds extremely well-qualified, and he'll be able to focus fully on Trump without having to deal with any other distractions. That sounds like a good thing to me!

[bigtree]

11. "those with very little to compare, find very little to understand."

...Norwegian language has an idiom that means roughly "small change compared to the real cost or value", which would translate literally as "buttons and scraps".

I'd note how many critics of what DOJ is doing to prosecute the Jan. 6 perps and the Maralago thief bring little more than buttons and scraps to the discussion.

[H2O Man]

26. Thank you!

A week or so ago, I wrote about my grandfather's explaining exactly why basic training had been so important in weeding out the weak ..... for they are those who cause others to be wounded or killed in conflict. Reading some of the bitter comments regarding AG Garland and the DOJ, I have to remind myself that this is a discussion board ..... and although we are facing a threat similar to that this country faced when Pappy was a DI, everyone has equal opportunity to add to the positive or negative here. I can't relate to the Eeyore approach, but I do understand it. And I know that nothing good has ever come from it, except on a cartoon.

[Just A Box Of Rain]

17. Very well-reasoned analysis.

With you 100%

[H2O Man]

27. Thanks!

Much appreciated!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

18. Jack Smith is not "from the Hague". He worked there. Jack Smith is American

I wish people would not propagate the "from the Hague" talking point. It is not a mark against him. I don't think you meant it against him. I just wish people would stop referring to him the same way they would refer to some Netherlands citizens.

Jack Smith is from America.
Jack Smith is working in the Hague.

[H2O Man]

23. No kidding.

You have solved the Great Mystery.

[kentuck]

19. I think they will make their assumptions on the belief that everyone knows he is an ex-President

With no more rights than you or me. There is no royalty attached to an ex-President.

A person can rob a bank but tell the cops he was just taking out a withdrawal, but the fact remains that he robbed the bank. The lies and the cover-up do not change the reality.

My hope is that the SC will recommend that a grand jury take a look at the charges, working on the assumption that Trump is no more than a common citizen in the eyes of the law.

My hunch is that they may wait until the primaries are over in 2024, if Trump is not the nominee, and then indict.

That is a long time and I hope I am wrong.

I agree with those that say there should be no delay.

[H2O Man]

32. Good points.

I think that federal grand juries have been looking into the cases that the Special Counsel will oversee. Those involved will know that an ex-president has no special rights. But one cannot dismiss citizens' concerns that justice is different for the wealthy than for the middle class or poor.

I have yet to see any evidence that Jack Smith's appointment will result in any delay. Numerous community members have claimed that it definitely will result in a delay, but have provided zero evidence of how or why that might happen. On the other hand, we do know that the exact same team of investigators working on the cases before Smith's appointment are still investigating, which suggests there is not a delay.

It is possible they will wait to indict before Trump loses in the 2024 republican presidential primaries. But I think that appointing Mr. Smith indicates otherwise.

[wnylib]

61. I think that an indictment

on at least one of many possible ones will happen much sooner. A grand jury has already been reviewing some of the evidence.

If Garland feels the necessity to protect the investigative findings collected this far, then he apparently feels there is something of value to protect, some use of the information that he expects to be made. If he believes that a SP is needed in order to give undivided attention to the Trump cases, then it looks like something has been uncovered that requires undivided focus to follow up on.

Since Trump announced his intention to run against Biden in 2024, and Garland is in the Biden administration, then that creates a conflict of interest for Garland. But it also suggests that there is much more going on in the investigation that would indicate a clear conflict of interest. Sure, just an ongoing investigation would look like a conflict of interest. But, if an indictment and prosecution are expected between now and 2024, then that makes the need for a SP even greater.

[malaise]

28. Very worthy

[H2O Man]

34. Thank you!

I was hoping that you would see this.

[malaise]

41. You always remind me of Kipling's If

😀

[Saoirse9]

52. Love that poem

[malaise]

54. Same here

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46473/if---

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

[Saoirse9]

55. If you can wait and not be tired by waiting

I’m afraid I utterly failed with that.

Tired, sick to death of waiting for justice.

[malaise]

57. Yet still we wait

I still expect justice

[Saoirse9]

63. I still want justice

But I am not expecting it any longer.

I want very badly to be wrong.

Sounds like Garland has his best people on it. Maybe I will get a wonderful surprise soon.

[Prairie_Seagull]

29. Very well said H2O Man.

I too hope you are right and in the end this all works out. Remaining flexible may soothe those (like myself) of us who could really use the soothing. But even a rubber-band will break if flexed to far. It is however early days yet so hope you are right. Fingers crossed.

[H2O Man]

35. Thank you!

I recognize that one of my many limitations is that I view most of life in the context of boxing. Thus, when I have stated that all of political life imitates the Great Sport, numerous people have informed me that they think I am obnoxious. Indeed, I am!

However, I agree with you regarding stretching too much. Forcing an opponent to stretch or be stretched too far is a great tactic in boxing. In a single example, getting a person to stretch too far with a punch, and thus getting their chest out further than their feet, should always be cause for a counter-punch, for they have not only exposed themselves, but are off-balance. Punches do more damage on an opponent who is off-balance.

More, one can stretch them too far by making it a long and frustrating fight. This causes them to start thinking too much, and reacting rather than responding. This always increases one's chances of knocking the opponent out.

It could be said that Trump's attention is being stretched by the number of investigations and legal cases he is confronted with today. I can say without any risk of error that not a single attorney connected with Trump has told him that Smith's appointment is a good thing for Donald.

[Hekate]

30. Thought-provoking, as always. Thanks for adding the back-story, too.

[H2O Man]

36. Thank you!

I think this is an important shift in the investigation of Trump's crimes, which are legion. I know that others see it in a negative light. But I think the more people learn about it, that will change in most instances.

[panader0]

31. Lawrence O'Donnell had a good show last night.

He detailed how many parts of the DOJ there are that are under Garland's supervision. Thousands, almost
100,000 people work for the department. O'Donnell said that alone keeps Garland busy and that Jack Smith's
only job will be the prosecution of TFG. He believes that will make the investigation much faster than if it
kept on w/o him. I can see that is probably so. Garland's decision to appoint a Special Investigator is not
'passing the buck' or 'punting'. It's an effort for more expediency.

[H2O Man]

37. Thanks!

That's why Lawrence is my favorite host on any news show. He has a great understanding of how things work in the real world. And you nailed it -- "It's an effort for more expediency."

[KS Toronado]

33. About 2 weeks before the 2016 election

One of the guys in our Friday night gatherings at the VFW made the comment that "We'll never regret electing
tRump", to which I added "But sooner or later he'll regret running for President". That brought a series of questions
and I explained that there's been rumors for years that he has been laundering Russian money since the mid
eighties and in today's political environment someone will be looking into that.

Appears we are on the threshold of him regretting ever running for President for crimes larger than money
laundering and our new SC Jack Smith will not be shoving this into high gear but overdrive.

[H2O Man]

38. Very good!

I've yet to meet a single person who thought they would come to regret engaging with a sociopath at the time they were first dealing with them. That comes later, if at all. But you are absolutely right that Trump will regret trying to deal on this stage.

[Martin Eden]

39. H2O Man, you are a valuable tribal elder to the DU community

Though we're all on the same side here opinions differ, passions run high, and disagreements can divide. You have the wisdom to know that if we are to win the good fight we have to fight together, not against each other.

And you have the experience to bring sometimes fractious allies together with your words of wisdom, reminding us that discussion is essential while always keeping an eye on our shared goals.

[H2O Man]

46. Thank you!

That is very kind of you to say.

I will mention that when a good friend reads your comments, she will laugh and tell me not to let it go to my head!

[Martin Eden]

48. Good friends like that keep us grounded

We are all human, and fallible. Also, I suspect she sees the truth in my post.

Peace,
Martin

[H2O Man]

50. Right.

I point out her biggest error in life frequently -- she broke up with my in 1966! Started seeing a guy who I would punish in the boxing ring thereafter.

[Martin Eden]

51. Laughter, Pity, and Happiness

Laughter at your certainty she made the wrong choice (grounded, much?).

Pity for the fool who got in the ring with you after stealing your woman.

Happiness that you two are still friends after all these years.

[Joinfortmill]

40. Excellent, thank you. For my part...

I was not 'rigid', but I was and remain consistent with my belief in both Joe Biden and Merrick Garland as patriots who would do the right thing. Keep the faith. Indictments are coming.

[H2O Man]

47. Very important point!

I'm glad you mentioned this -- it is essential to be firm in your values. For there is a huge difference between right and wrong, legal and illegal, etc. And the gray expanse between those exists.

Thank you!

[Joinfortmill]

64. 😃

[majdrfrtim]

44. I believe I heard a pundit opine that with the GQP

holding the House (hostage [my snark, not the pundit’s insinuation, even]), Garland appointing a Special Counsel effectively prevents Gym Abuser-Enabler Jordan from being able to demand updates from DoJ regarding the investigations under the Special Counsel.

If this is true (& therefore “more to compare”), my initial unease with the appointment of a SC will have been largely assuaged.

Thank you, H2O Man, for your timely and insightful OP!

[H2O Man]

49. Essential point.

It would be too easy to assume that it is only a question of the DOJ being non-political. That misses the actual issue, which you have identified here. The republican-led House will attempt to damage the investigation. But with this change, it is out of any ability they have to interfere. That is huge.

[calimary]

58. I love your "words to the wise," H2O Man.

“… in these situations, you have to be flexible in both your thinking and strategy. For rigid things snap under pressure, and rigid behaviors are easily countered by an opponent.”

Good to remember!

[H2O Man]

59. Thank you!

[DallasNE]

60. What About The Crimes Committed Before 2021?

Mueller had at least obstruction and that is forgiven? And the meeting with the 2 Russians where he outed an Israeli spy? This is leaving too much on the plate.

[wnylib]

62. Trump will never be prosecuted for all of his crimes.

I think that the worst ones will get the most investigation and the most proveable will make it to court.

[H2O Man]

65. I hear you.

I thought he should have been impeached for that obstruction. And indicted the minute he was out of office. But I accept that the DOJ will go for what is most likely to get convictions. And as wnylib noted (above), Trump will never be prosecuted for all of the crimes he has committed. What is most important, I think, is that he is prosecuted for some of them, and face real consequences.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

66. Timothy McVeigh was arrested within days of the bombing and indicted in 4 months.

Trump was found illegally in possession of top secret documents and still walks free.

[H2O Man]

68. I hear you.

Your point is well taken. I know that there are individuals here on DU with sincere, serious, and valid concerns. And I am one of them, but not in the sense of thinking Jack Smith's appointment will in any way slow the process down. I think it will do just the opposite.

[mopinko]

67. i think the problem at doj has been the left behind.

me- i walk in on day 1, and demand letters from every hire in the last 4 yrs.
but that might be why i'm not in charge of jack shit.

i think his caution is building a case that is air tight even from within.

[H2O Man]

69. Great point.

It is always important to recognize that the DOJ and FBI are made up of individuals. And each one has the ability to do "good" or "bad." And that includes those put in place by Trump and Barr. So I thank you for raising such an important point.

In the past, I've mentioned retired FBI official James Kallstrom. People may recognize his name, fom his doing the introductions on episodes of the television series "The FBI Files." If one were to think, "Now, there's a good man," based off introductions on a television series, you couldn't be surprised. But, then again, if one asked why Jim's introductions were removed from episodes shown on WE tv, you might say they are on to something.

This isn't to suggest that Jim wasn't good on a lot of cases. You, of all people, know I would not make such a claim. Far be it from me! But then again, you (of all people) would surely anticipate that I would have concerns about ol Jim's long and close association with Rudy Giuliani. You would not be surprised that it includes close connections between the pair that go far beyond when Rudy was a prosecutor. Or that Jim is among the NYC-based nest of retired FBI agents that support Trump, that maintain friendships with others active within the agency, and who are very concerned about a woman's stolen diary and her brother's lap top computer. That kind of thing.

One might even speculate that these good fellas maintain connections with some of those that Trump and Barr put in place.

[mopinko]

70. the magats sunk some deep tentacles in the last 6 yrs.

i, personally, see the orange menace as just another post turtle. put there w the help of those already in power. a perfect brain addled puppet. he was never smart enough to pull off any of this alone.
it all has the stink of stone/manafort.
you may remember my stories about my nephew who was pushed out of the pentagon by john rood. well before the coup, but they knew he would not be on board. he was asst sec def for jsoc when they pushed him out. yeah, he'd have seen it coming from a long way away.

so much rot w/in. i hope this term, there is a srs effort to root out traitors at every level. but esp those in the house. we may get control back. we shall see.