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H2O Man

(73,723 posts)
Wed Nov 23, 2022, 11:31 PM Nov 2022

A Rubin Quote

".... Because hate, like racism and color-prejudice, is not inherent, because nothing is inherent, but it has to be constantly cultivated in order to be brought into being -- for hatred demands existence! And he who hates must show his hatred in appropriate actions and behavior, and to a certain extent, he must become hate himself! And hatred, running amuck, is what you are witnessing today in America -- because America has become hate, itself, and therefore it is hated."
-- Rubin "Hurricane" Carter; letter to H2O Man; Tuesday, June 26, 1979; 9:45 a.m.

Last night I learned of another mass shooting, this one at a Walmart. The "official" reports by police were scant, and we were told more information would be presented this morning. The updates confirmed that it was yet another in the seemingly never ending out-of-control cycle of gross violence in America.

Unable to sleep, I found myself going back and forth between rooms, watching reports on the 24/7 news on television, and looking through several internet sites. This included coming to DU to check to see if there were any responses to an OP that I had posted on Monday, about mass shootings, with some information from the book "The Violence Project." The authors are intent upon educating the public about options for preventing mass shootings.

Hoping to engage in conversation, I was happily surprised to find there were two new responses. That faded quickly, however, when two new members made identical posts that I assume were from those who don't belong here on DU. Later in the morning, I was happy to see that both "people" had been shown the door.

The more I watched the news and read things on the internet, the more I realized I could benefit more from (re-) reading some of the series of letters I got from Rubin, dating from the times he was in solitary. Some of those letters were only about seven or eight pages long, and others were twenty to thirty. The above quote is from one of them.

Rubin did not think that a violent self-destruction was the only option that this country had. Rather, that it was the one that was almost certain if people did not make the conscious effort to change, and not return hatred for hatred. But that it was never too late to make the conscious change in direction.

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you & yours.
H2O Man

45 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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A Rubin Quote (Original Post) H2O Man Nov 2022 OP
Good quote, H2O Man! calimary Nov 2022 #1
Thank you! H2O Man Nov 2022 #3
And you DO indeed have those. calimary Nov 2022 #26
Thank you for your contributions to DU 🙏 dweller Nov 2022 #2
Thanks! H2O Man Nov 2022 #6
Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours, my dear H20 Man! CaliforniaPeggy Nov 2022 #4
Thanks, Peggy! H2O Man Nov 2022 #8
It does take a conscious effort to change, and that effort is an everyday thing. You're never done. Solly Mack Nov 2022 #5
Never done. H2O Man Nov 2022 #10
People could look at it like learning something new each day. Solly Mack Nov 2022 #18
i think the things we other ppl over r taught, but i think the tendency to divide ppl mopinko Nov 2022 #7
Great point! H2O Man Nov 2022 #11
there's a discussion here in chi mopinko Nov 2022 #23
Great quote indeed, H2O Man nightwing1240 Nov 2022 #9
Thank you! H2O Man Nov 2022 #12
Love ya, H2O Man, and am sorry I have so little to say in this moment. Each new incident... Hekate Nov 2022 #13
Oh, thank you! H2O Man Nov 2022 #15
Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours, H20 Man! 2naSalit Nov 2022 #14
Thanks! H2O Man Nov 2022 #16
Thank you for your thoughtful posts Wild blueberry Nov 2022 #17
Thank you! H2O Man Nov 2022 #27
Great quote from Rubin Carter. sheshe2 Nov 2022 #19
While I was H2O Man Nov 2022 #30
PS ...... H2O Man Nov 2022 #31
I caught the movie a few months ago. sheshe2 Nov 2022 #41
"If you can do one, you can do the others, because fantacism and ignorance is forever busy AZLD4Candidate Nov 2022 #20
Very good! H2O Man Nov 2022 #32
And to you and yours grantcart Nov 2022 #21
Great movie! H2O Man Nov 2022 #33
My understanding is that it was most accurate about Lesra Martin grantcart Nov 2022 #34
That's true. H2O Man Nov 2022 #35
Hate "has to be constantly cultivated" Martin Eden Nov 2022 #22
Very interesting take! H2O Man Nov 2022 #36
Change or self destruct malaise Nov 2022 #24
That is the two choices! H2O Man Nov 2022 #37
Happy Thanksgiving to you, H2O Man spanone Nov 2022 #25
Thank you! H2O Man Nov 2022 #38
Hate is a heavy load to carry, just lighten up. (present company accepted) Prairie_Seagull Nov 2022 #28
Thanks! H2O Man Nov 2022 #39
Hated, anger, and rage have to be cultivated. Just A Box Of Rain Nov 2022 #29
Right. H2O Man Nov 2022 #40
MIssed THe Original Posting Me. Nov 2022 #42
Thanks! H2O Man Nov 2022 #43
Thank you for posting this quote LetMyPeopleVote Nov 2022 #44
Thanks! H2O Man Nov 2022 #45

H2O Man

(73,723 posts)
3. Thank you!
Wed Nov 23, 2022, 11:43 PM
Nov 2022

Rubin was an amazing friend. I miss talking with him -- but reading through those letters last night was the next best thing.


(81,635 posts)
26. And you DO indeed have those.
Thu Nov 24, 2022, 11:05 AM
Nov 2022

Nice souvenirs, and historic ones at that!

Happy Thanksgiving, to us all!


(23,723 posts)
2. Thank you for your contributions to DU 🙏
Wed Nov 23, 2022, 11:41 PM
Nov 2022

I hope you have a peaceful day of thanks tomorrow



(149,887 posts)
4. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours, my dear H20 Man!
Wed Nov 23, 2022, 11:44 PM
Nov 2022

Your post is most excellent.

I am afraid that given our disposition for violence, we may well not be able to change direction at all, and will continue to go down that treacherous road.

I hope I'm wrong.


H2O Man

(73,723 posts)
10. Never done.
Wed Nov 23, 2022, 11:51 PM
Nov 2022

It seems to be pretty difficult when one is a human being. But it is possible. (Strange creatures, we are!)

Solly Mack

(90,811 posts)
18. People could look at it like learning something new each day.
Thu Nov 24, 2022, 12:25 AM
Nov 2022

I know it would be far easier to list the things I do know than the things I don't know.

Rooting out prejudice and bias, remedying the ignorance that leads to fear, remembering to catch yourself, so to speak, all take unlearning. And the best way to unlearn prejudice/bigotry/racism/sexism, to get rid of the fear of things you don't know/understand, is to learn the truth, learn the facts.

And since learning never stops, you're never done.


(70,415 posts)
7. i think the things we other ppl over r taught, but i think the tendency to divide ppl
Wed Nov 23, 2022, 11:45 PM
Nov 2022

into us/other is inherent. and sadly necessary. good from bad is important info.

it's the part where there get to be stereotypes, and where we dont judge ppl as individuals where the bullshit starts.
carl sagan likes to talk about the human tendency to 'remember the hits, and forget the misses'.
aka cognitive dissonance. perception is so sketchy, and reality so complex.

here's a biological fact, tho. babies whose mothers, whose early life, is full of stress, grow up to be the kind of people you need to be to live on the edge. fast twitch muscles and big amygdalas.
well cared for mothers and babies grow up to be poets and artists and thinker. and accepting. w greater development in the so-called 'higher' regions of the brain. and fine motor control.
it also helps not to beat them, and give them tbis.

it all comes down to how well we care for the next generation. always.

H2O Man

(73,723 posts)
11. Great point!
Wed Nov 23, 2022, 11:55 PM
Nov 2022

It is generational. Sometimes when the three of my kids that work in human services with children & youth talk about their jobs, I realize they are dealing with the children and grandchildren of those I worked with. Our culture provides the least support -- family-wise -- than any generation of Americans ever has had. (At least they have cell phones!)


(70,415 posts)
23. there's a discussion here in chi
Thu Nov 24, 2022, 09:00 AM
Nov 2022

about sending 0 cops on mental health calls. i wholeheartedly approve.
i raised a couple axis 1 kids, and when u cant anymore, the question of who can help u shouldnt be tinged w fear that calling for help will end up your loved 1 dead.

i was pretty much alone raising my 5. it was hard, and honestly, it didnt go well.


(91,125 posts)
13. Love ya, H2O Man, and am sorry I have so little to say in this moment. Each new incident...
Thu Nov 24, 2022, 12:04 AM
Nov 2022

…is another blow, and at this point my response to each is to say in resignation, “Oh gods, another one.”

This is America’s version of The Troubles, and the “reasons” behind it make even less sense than the savagery in Ireland. Violence for its own sake, in the end, until enough people were sickened by it to make negotiations a reality.

From time to time in this world, peacemakers can make society change. I hold to that.

I think of you as the Wise Man of DU, and your essays about the land you live on have taken me there many times in my imagination. May your holidays be full of peace and love, and health attend you in the New Year.

H2O Man

(73,723 posts)
15. Oh, thank you!
Thu Nov 24, 2022, 12:18 AM
Nov 2022

This is becoming our version of The Troubles. And everyone got hurt. We are not sitting on some high wall, where some will fall and be damaged, while others maintain a comfortable view from the wall.

I tend to imagine myself the Oldest Man on DU, who had the good fortune to interact and learn from some people who actually were wise. And sharing some of their wisdom here is a pleasure.

H2O Man

(73,723 posts)
27. Thank you!
Thu Nov 24, 2022, 11:09 AM
Nov 2022

When I was little -- long, long ago -- there was a field next to where my father built our house that had acres of wild blueberries. Every summer, the families in our rural "neighborhood" would pick berries for hours and hours. I'm reminded of those days when I see your posts here!


(84,137 posts)
19. Great quote from Rubin Carter.
Thu Nov 24, 2022, 12:28 AM
Nov 2022

So much truth there. He was an amazing man.

Imprisoned for 20 years for a ruling that was "predicated upon an appeal to racism rather than reason, and concealment rather than disclosure".

Good to know the two of you corresponded. I understand why you have kept them tucked away all these years.

As always thank you for your post. H2O Man.


H2O Man

(73,723 posts)
30. While I was
Thu Nov 24, 2022, 11:35 AM
Nov 2022

looking through a number of my files -- where these letters were -- I found a stack of photos of my children hanging out with Rubin. The four of them grew up thinking of him as one of their uncles. My youngest has a tattoo of a hand-written message he gave her when she was wee-little: "Darcy -- Dare to Dream! -- Rubin "Hurricane" Carter."

The first boxing match I watched with my father and brothers was Rubin knocking out welterweight championEmile Griffith in the first round. I still have an old boxing scrapbook from that era. It never made sense to me when he was convicted of the violent crime. By age 13, I was featured in an article in a boxing magazine, and I figured that I was destined to become a professional. So I wrote to Rubin, saying I had looked into his case, thought he was innocent, and was going to get him released. I added that I would offer him the opportunity to train and manage me. (!) And he wrote back, beginning a 40+ year friendship.

Little did I know that, in time, as I was doing quite well in amateur boxing, that he would eventually "suggest" I quit boxing, aand further my education. And that this would lead to my working with his defense team, including helping uncover the Caruso file, which documented that the lead investigator actually knew who had done the shooting -- and it wasn't Rubin and John Artis. (I came to know John, too.) A few years back, one of the gunmen confessed on his death bed.

I have court transcripts, decisions, letters from the prosecution, FBI, the judge, etc., along with all those letters from when Rubin was incarcerated. But those pictures with my kids! I had forgotten exactly where they were. Tomorrow, when all of them are here, I'll have something to give them!

H2O Man

(73,723 posts)
31. PS ......
Thu Nov 24, 2022, 11:40 AM
Nov 2022

After responding to you, I went briefly to facebook ..... a "memory" came up. Twelve years ago today, Rubin called me to discuss the release of his second book. He said he told the publisher to mail me a copy, and that he wanted her to use my "review" when the book came out.


(84,137 posts)
41. I caught the movie a few months ago.
Thu Nov 24, 2022, 06:55 PM
Nov 2022

It was fascinating and rather heartbreaking. Yes, I know it was made for TV, yet we all saw some of that history. Thanks for filling in some of the details of your 40 year friendship with Ruben and your background in his defense.

Your kids are going to love seeing those old pictures again. You have led one interesting life, H2O Man.

I hope you all enjoy a beautiful day.

Happy Thanksgiving


(5,880 posts)
20. "If you can do one, you can do the others, because fantacism and ignorance is forever busy
Thu Nov 24, 2022, 01:03 AM
Nov 2022

and needs feeding. And soon. . .with flags flying and drums banging, we'll go backwards. . .BACKWARDS! To the glorious ages of that 16th century when bigots burned the man that dared bring intelligence and enlightenment to the human mind."

- Inherit the Wind

H2O Man

(73,723 posts)
33. Great movie!
Thu Nov 24, 2022, 12:29 PM
Nov 2022

There were some who thought it should have been more of a documentary. But Hollywood movies are intended to appeal to emotions, rather than just presenting the facts. I think it is outstanding in presenting the case in that format.


(53,061 posts)
34. My understanding is that it was most accurate about Lesra Martin
Thu Nov 24, 2022, 12:49 PM
Nov 2022

while the Canadians were a lot more complicated and the portrayal of the cops was over the top.

H2O Man

(73,723 posts)
35. That's true.
Thu Nov 24, 2022, 01:51 PM
Nov 2022

There was a group of Canadians, and there were different relationships with each one and Rubin. The movie was made to pay them back for what they had invested in his case, after he had split from them. But Rubin and Lesra remained on good terms.

Some of the stuff about the police was over the top. That includes a number of things, and the Canadians that stayed in NJ were nervous, felt they were being watched, but were not "threatened." And while DeSimone was crooked, he didn't go back to the childhood scene as inthe movie. Later, Rubin did come to understand that Vince was convinced Rubin was involved -- though he and John were not the actual gunmen. And, before the second trial, the prosecutor had submitted in pre-trial hearings that they were going to go after Carter as the "brains" behind the crime, but not the guy with the shotgun. But they went back to the original theory a short time before the trial.

And, of course, his title shot with Joey was not one-sided at all. There was no delay in the decision. Rubin had long since cared about boxing. It was uncomfortable for him the time that he did attend the boxing hall of fame's induction ceremonies -- another former top contender kept saying, "I beat you" .... as if that type of thing was important.

Martin Eden

(12,892 posts)
22. Hate "has to be constantly cultivated"
Thu Nov 24, 2022, 08:16 AM
Nov 2022

That cultivation can come from within, or from deliberate manipulation by outside sources.

Individuals suffering psychological pain and fear are capable of becoming serial killers or mass murderers as their mental pathologies grow from early trauma and a lack of the sustaining human relationships we all need. Where love is absent, a person can cultivate hatred and turn it loose on others through horrific acts of violence.

John Lennon was onto something with "All you need is Love." We also need food, clothing, shelter, education, healthcare, etc., but it takes a special kind of inner strength and mental discipline (such as Rubin had) to keep your shit together in the absence of direct and sustained contact with human kindness and love.

It is a tragedy and a failure when children and people of all ages are abused or denied the nurturing all human beings need.

It is evil and destructive to society when ambitious politicians deliberately cultivate hatred pursuant to their own wealth, fame, and power. They know how to manipulate the insecurity, ignorance, and prejudice in their target audience by turning kernels of truth into crops of lies then placing the blame on "others" who are not like them. Add to that the unfettered access to high powered firearms designed for rapid killing.

Thusly we can at least partially understand the horrific plague of mass shootings in our country. Human psychology and motivation haven't really changed, but today's mass media and the internet have increasingly isoloated us from each other while multiplying the tools used by those who divide us against each other.

What is the solution? I don't subscribe to religion, but if we all made an effort on a daily basis to truly embrace what Jesus tried to impart to us we would have a chance to replace the cultivated hate with something better.

In order to get the love and kindness we all need, we have to freely give it.

H2O Man

(73,723 posts)
36. Very interesting take!
Thu Nov 24, 2022, 01:57 PM
Nov 2022

I thought a while before responding. I want to avoid going on and on, as I too often do. But when Rubin was on a speaking tour, I'd bring c0-workers from the Mental Health Clinic to listen to and meet him. I remember one psychologist friend saying Rubin sounded like a Southern Baptist minister. I told her that his father and grandfather had been just that!

Rubin identified as an atheist. But he studied all types of religions and philosophies. And he called Jesus "the Master" in our discussions on these topics. He viewed the historic Jesus to be a great prophet, and agreed with Malcolm that people should take him off stained-glass windows and insert him into their being.


Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
29. Hated, anger, and rage have to be cultivated.
Thu Nov 24, 2022, 11:28 AM
Nov 2022

Too many demagogic political figures and movements make cultivating such hated the very core of their paths to power.

People who are stoked with hatred, anger, and rage are easy to manipulate and they lose the capacity to reason, which is the hallmark feature of being a liberal.

I'm thankful that we have a different type of leader in Joe Biden.

Rubin Carter's words are spot-on.

H2O Man

(73,723 posts)
40. Right.
Thu Nov 24, 2022, 03:28 PM
Nov 2022

The republicans foolishly believe that they can control hatred. It doesn't work that way. It tricks people into trying, then it consumes them.

H2O Man

(73,723 posts)
43. Thanks!
Fri Nov 25, 2022, 01:12 AM
Nov 2022

I hope you had a good day, too!

All the kids are coming on Friday for our big meal. I did go visit my grandson today, and enjoyed a great meal there.

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