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Tue Jan 24, 2023, 09:44 AM

Plain talk about "the abortion issue": it is not now nor has it ever been about "saving babies".

Last edited Tue Jan 24, 2023, 11:05 AM - Edit history (1)

That is bullshit of the rankest sort.

What IS it about? That's not a trick question---putting women in the place God intended for them: under the thumbs of men. It is a woman's destiny, you see, her God-ordained fate, to endure the pain, the inconvenience and responsibility for bearing, birthing and rearing every child a man blesses her with. Women who aspire to anything else are "un-Godly".

One of the best signs I saw at the 2017 Women's March was "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament!"

We are STILL discussing "the abortion issue" primarily because the mega-rich have adopted it as their most efficient tool to distract us "great unwashed" while they rob us.

That's what I think.

62 replies, 6594 views

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Reply Plain talk about "the abortion issue": it is not now nor has it ever been about "saving babies". (Original post)
Atticus Jan 24 OP
Lovie777 Jan 24 #1
hlthe2b Jan 24 #2
ProudMNDemocrat Jan 24 #3
Diamond_Dog Jan 24 #8
Walleye Jan 24 #12
demigoddess Jan 24 #47
Rebl2 Jan 24 #14
Irish_Dem Jan 24 #4
Ocelot II Jan 24 #5
Deuxcents Jan 24 #26
essaynnc Jan 24 #6
rubbersole Jan 24 #7
2naSalit Jan 25 #60
CrispyQ Jan 24 #9
Walleye Jan 24 #13
Stargazer99 Jan 24 #19
Silver Gaia Jan 25 #59
barbtries Jan 24 #22
2naSalit Jan 25 #61
harumph Jan 24 #10
thesquanderer Jan 24 #17
Stargazer99 Jan 24 #20
rurallib Jan 24 #32
dem in texas Jan 24 #54
Marcuse Jan 24 #55
A HERETIC I AM Jan 24 #56
raging moderate Jan 24 #11
lark Jan 24 #15
niyad Jan 24 #16
thesquanderer Jan 24 #18
Stargazer99 Jan 24 #21
rurallib Jan 24 #33
thesquanderer Jan 24 #36
randr Jan 24 #23
Pobeka Jan 24 #24
Iggo Jan 24 #25
moondust Jan 24 #27
republianmushroom Jan 24 #28
geardaddy Jan 24 #29
GGoss Jan 24 #30
LineReply .
WhiskeyGrinder Jan 24 #31
KPN Jan 24 #34
maxrandb Jan 24 #35
BlueCheeseAgain Jan 24 #37
IroningBored Jan 24 #38
WhiskeyGrinder Jan 24 #42
Atticus Jan 24 #44
modrepub Jan 24 #39
OMGWTF Jan 24 #40
Dirty Socialist Jan 24 #41
WhiskeyGrinder Jan 24 #43
IcyPeas Jan 24 #45
Hekate Jan 24 #46
FakeNoose Jan 24 #48
housecat Jan 24 #49
dupagelib Jan 24 #50
Lem1951 Jan 24 #51
Nululu Jan 24 #52
Nululu Jan 24 #53
calimary Jan 25 #57
MOMFUDSKI Jan 25 #58
jaxexpat Jan 25 #62

Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 09:45 AM

1. K&R......

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 09:49 AM

2. I could not agree more.

and you would not want to hear about some of my dreams lately when I sleep on a story about these cretins. I'll just say I strongly vent emotions towards these a'holes.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 09:49 AM

3. The issue has always been about CONTROL.

Last edited Tue Jan 24, 2023, 11:53 AM - Edit history (1)

Women with CONTROL over their bodies EQUALS Opportunities in Education, the Workforce, in LIFE in general.

Men HATE the idea of women having CONTROL and Equal footing.

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Response to ProudMNDemocrat (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 10:06 AM

8. +++

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Response to ProudMNDemocrat (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 10:30 AM

12. It's not just control, they don't wanna have to compete with us for jobs and pay raises

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Response to Walleye (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 06:36 PM

47. AMEN!!!

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Response to ProudMNDemocrat (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 10:40 AM

14. Very true

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 09:49 AM

4. GOP leadership doesn't give a rat's behind about any their issues.

Well they do care about tax cuts and voter suppression.

The rest is just red meat to manipulate their base.

Abortion is about the subjugation of women.

The GOP is spreading hatred, anger, chaos and division.
Targeting various groups.
All for power and money.

They will install white, male christian minority rule.
Permanent power and access to all US revenue.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 09:50 AM

5. Of course it isn't. If it was really about the babies they'd care what happened to them

after they were born, but clearly they do not. It's always been about controlling women.

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Response to Ocelot II (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 11:34 AM

26. That's what I think, too

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 09:52 AM

6. I am in agreement about the "reason "..

I'm guessing that the vast majority of b.s. issues that we face, and of course the twists of the real ones, are diversionary tactics by our overseers to keep our attention NOT focused on the real issues.... And robbing us blind is probably #1, since they already control virtually every single thing we see or hear.

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Response to essaynnc (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 10:06 AM

7. This.

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Response to essaynnc (Reply #6)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 07:39 AM

60. +1

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 10:23 AM

9. Man created God in his image to control woman.

They even co-opted the birth process & crafted Eve from one of Adam's ribs.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 10:31 AM

13. ☝️Exactly

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 10:52 AM

19. It seems to me in Gensis

God created He them, male and female created He them-sorta contradicts that male oriented crap

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Response to Stargazer99 (Reply #19)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 06:48 AM

59. Yes.There are actually two conflicting creation stories

in Genesis. So take your pick. It is my understanding that the one you mentioned here is thought to be the older of the two, with the Adam's rib story being a later addition.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 11:03 AM

22. bingo.

made just for the man. not even human really.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #9)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 07:40 AM

61. +1

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 10:26 AM

10. You're only half right -

It's more about boosting white babies - preferably born into southern religious - evangelical culture who
will continue to form a buttress against the unwashed (woke) electorate. Of course as you say, it's about
controlling women - but the side benefit is more uneducated white voters. Don't think the various
white ring think tanks haven't triangulated all of this. Rich republicans play the long game and they're
a cynical lot.

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Response to harumph (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 10:50 AM

17. re:"more about boosting white babies, preferably born into southern religious evangelical culture"

I don't know about that. I think a lot of white southern religious evangelical types already tend not to abort their pregnancies. I think limiting access to abortion has a kind of opposite effect, boosting the population of babies born to poorer families, disproportionately people of color. Those who are more well off will always find a way to get the abortion if they want to, they can afford to travel, they can afford to take days off from their other responsibilities.

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 10:55 AM

20. Exactly, more needing jobs to survive-cheaper labor

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Response to Stargazer99 (Reply #20)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 12:20 PM

32. and THAT is one of the main goals - cheap and abundant labor

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 11:29 PM

54. I agree about boosting more white babies - but....

I think it is about fear of the white population no longer staying the dominant population in America. The percentage of white population is decreasing year by year in the US. The so called called Christian Nationalist movement is based on the same fear..

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Response to dem in texas (Reply #54)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 11:38 PM

55. Bingo!

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Response to harumph (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 11:50 PM

56. This is EXACTLY what it's all about. Jerry Falwell and others....

of his ilk said as much in the late 70's when the Evangelical movement, which up until that time was pretty much pro-choice, took on abortion as a cultural wedge issue. They saw the writing on the wall. The demographic trends are irrefutable and irreversible unless something drastic is done.

The white, Christian powers that be and the moneyed interest that back them, need white American women to have more children and yes, the more southern white babies the better.

They have been working on this for 45 years and they are finally succeeding.

THEY TOLD US FORTY FIVE YEARS AGO WHAT THEIR GOAL WAS.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 10:29 AM

11. They are all reactionaries.

They want everything back the way it was in the fifties, when women all walked around in constant fear, carefully following rigid rules of dress and conduct to prove they were "decent" women. I remember my mother carefully inculcating these rules into me: "Keep your knees together," "stand up straight," "eyes straight ahead," "walk with an attitude of purpose," "clothing not too tight," "not too much makeup," "use ladylike words," etc. Also, of course, we were taught how to keep an eye out for sexual predators and skillfully avoid them and move to where we would be safe from them, while pretending not to see them.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 10:40 AM

15. It's about remaking society so that women are just baby making machines.

Women won't be able to work because they can't stop having babies from men who are entitled to have unprotected sex with them but who have no responsibility for paying for the babies. The PTB want lots of poor babies, with no medical care, and with no free education who will work for peanuts and die young with no sick care or sick leave. That is the plan, to turn us into the barons and serfs model of living where we cn be killed/jailed for anything and the rich own everything and can do anything with impunity. It has always been the oligarchs plan.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 10:50 AM

16. It is, and always has been, about control. About their "property". How dare women

destroy their "property", the potential offspring. Patriarchy is sick and twisted.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 10:52 AM

18. I think it's a mix. I think there are some for whom it genuinely is about saving babies, too. n/t

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 10:57 AM

21. then they better put their money where their mouth is

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 12:24 PM

33. For the real leaders of the anti-abortion movement saving babies is very low on the list

It may be a goal of some of the followers, but not the leaders

Control of women, growing consumer markets, cheap and abundant labor are the true purposes we never talk about.

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Response to rurallib (Reply #33)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 01:30 PM

36. Yes, more the followers than leaders.Prob the only leader who's in it for saving babies is the Pope.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 11:07 AM

23. If it were about saving babies

We would fight to make the world a safe place for children

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 11:16 AM

24. If you don't mind, I think the real reason is even beyond that.

Yes, they are playing to the put women in their place crowd. But the real reason for this insanity is the GOP power elite are facing a massive demographic shift that is not going to be in their favor.

And so they are playing the long game in order to maintain control of the senate, and have some continued power over the electoral college outcomes.
The long game is to pass the craziest inhumane laws in red states in order to:

1) Drive blue voters out of those states.
2) Attract and maintain red voters in those crazy states.

The margins have been generally narrowing for some time, and this is a pushback against that inevitable blue shift coming in the demographics.

This is a long game because it will not work instantly, but over time it will affect where people decide to live. They know very well how the long game works because they've applied it very successfully over the past 4 decades to control state legislatures so they can gerrymander like crazy in order to maintain control of the US house of reps.

They *do not care* about human life, because if they did we would not have the health care and economic systems that cause untold suffering and death here in the USA just so the GOP elite can make a profit.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 11:32 AM

25. It's about gettin votes from people who think it's about saving babies.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 11:39 AM

27. Talibananafication.

It is what it is.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 11:48 AM

28. statement is very true,

it is about the control of woman.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 11:50 AM

29. You are spot on!

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 12:00 PM

30. Yep... Pregnancy Was Punishment For Being A "Loose" Woman

The right HATED the Feminist Movement AND the Sexual Revolution.

It was NEVER about the babies.

How do we know this...

Because once the baby is born, they no longer give a shit.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 12:03 PM

31. .

"If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament!"
Men can get pregnant.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 12:43 PM

34. THIS ...

"We are STILL discussing "the abortion issue" primarily because the mega-rich have adopted it as their most efficient tool to distract us "great unwashed" while they rob us."

Couldn't agree more.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 01:10 PM

35. Nailed it

Can't have women and girls having all these choices. They went girls to have no other choice but to marry the ignorant jock that got her pregnant in a drunken stupor at 16

Every women who has a choice, is one less for the incels to drag, kicking and screaming, to the altar.

There is a reason that the young women in my extended family circle are waiting into their 30s to get married. Just a generation ago, most of the women of childbearing age in my family tree were marrying before 23.

Like I have always said; "if men could get pregnant, abortion would not only be legal and safe, it would be available at 7/11 and tax deductable"

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 01:37 PM

37. Women and men have similar overall views on abortion.

According to Pew, about 35% of women believe abortion should be illegal in all or most cases. This is not that different than the number for men, which is 41%.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think a significant fraction of these anti-abortion folks really do care about the potential life. I'm pro-choice, but I think there's a broad consensus that fetuses progress from a small unfeeling clump of cells and develop more and more human-life characteristics until birth. There's a reason people grieve over miscarriages and stillbirths. If people feel a sense of loss over their own fetuses, they can feel a sense of loss over others too.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 02:18 PM

38. Changing the Way Abortion is Discussed

I have been reading Democratic Underground for decades, but only recently became a member. This is my second post. I have sent a letter to my Democratic state legislators asking them to enact an Abortion Accountability Act. My comments included the following:
The way that abortion is now discussed is wrong. Many Republican legislatures, their voters, and supporters and conservative religious groups continue to ignore the obvious: There are two partners in an abortion. Those two partners are NOT a woman and her doctor. Those two partners are a man and a woman.
We need to include men in the discussion of abortion. Women don’t magically become pregnant. There is a man involved in every pregnancy: planned, unplanned, and unwanted. For every unplanned, unwanted, and life-threatening pregnancy that ends in abortion, there is a man involved.
The red state legislators’ antiabortion laws are labeling women and their doctors criminals. If abortion, used for any reason, is a crime, both partners in that crime, a man and a woman, must be held equally accountable.
Abortion Accountability Act
Change the way that abortion is discussed by introducing and enacting an Abortion Accountability Act to hold both partners in a pregnancy, a man and a woman, accountable.
Whereas a pregnancy involves both a man and a woman, any discussion about abortion must include both the man and the woman.
Abortion Accountability Acts must include these two provisions:
- If the two partners in a pregnancy, a man and a woman, agree to end the pregnancy, the full costs of an abortion must be equally shared.
- On the other hand, if the two partners, a man and a woman, agree to carry the pregnancy to full term, such shared expenses should include the costs of maternal and childcare and the costs of raising the child until the child reaches the age of adulthood.

If we could get a few blue state legislatures to enact such Abortion Accountability Acts, we could change the way that abortions are discussed. Please feel free to use any or all of my comments and write to your Democratic state legislators.

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Response to IroningBored (Reply #38)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 04:42 PM

42. A lot of harm implied in your provisions.

- If the two partners in a pregnancy, a man and a woman, agree to end the pregnancy, the full costs of an abortion must be equally shared.
Why does there have to be an "agreement" to end the pregnancy? Forcing interactions can be harmful depending on the relationship here.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #42)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 04:54 PM

44. Totally agree. nt

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 03:55 PM

39. I wouldn't disagree

But another part of this discussion and another reason why so many folks choose abortion or contraception is how expensive it is to raise a child. More on point with your last paragraph.

Our political system seems to completely ignore the huge elephant in the room. We as a society do so little to help folks raise the next generation.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 04:31 PM

40. The best sign I've seen read "If you cut off my reproductive choices, can I cut off yours?"

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 04:35 PM

41. I think the answer is "mixed"

Some want to save babies, others have other motives IMO

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 04:43 PM

43. There are plenty of useful idiots protesting outside of clinics who believe that their presence on

the sidewalk can "save a life" and that doing that work is exactly what God wants them to do to save babies. Their work is rooted in the white supremacy that drives anti-abortion movements but they truly believe it's all about The Babies.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 06:23 PM

45. I think it's about donation$ /nt

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 06:25 PM

46. "Pro-life" was always a monstrous lie

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 06:40 PM

48. The ultra-wealthy one-per-centers aren't very religious

They don't really care when the "poors" commit sins as long as they get to keep their tax breaks and their privileges. For them abortion isn't a moral issue, as far as I can see. This is a hot-button issue for the evangelicals and the born-again people. They DO care about abortion and about other people sinning. They vote in blocs and the ultra-wealthy discovered how to get them to vote for Repuke candidates - they started making promises to end abortion. It's as simple as that. Roe was shut down as a tit-for-tat to the Religious Right voting for Repukes for the last 40 years. They were threatening to walk away because it wasn't getting done.

The ultra-wealthy just want to keep their tax breaks, so they made it happen. Roe was struck down, and it's the only reason. We know it won't last, and so do they. They paid off the debt to keep the evangelicals voting for Repukes.



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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 07:27 PM

49. The real "big lie"

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 07:30 PM

50. Half true.

Other half is racism. I think it is a metaphor for racism.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 07:47 PM

51. How to reduce abortions

If they were really wanting to reduce abortion and unwanted pregnancy, they could do like the Netherlands
1. Factual sex education - not this abstinence BS
2. Universal access to contraception including in the schools
3. Universal access to healthcare
Of course this doesn’t fit with the control of women

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Response to Atticus (Original post)


Response to Atticus (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 09:37 PM

53. Slavery and killing women

That is all. It's about diminishing women and destroying society.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 06:18 AM

57. I remember that slogan.

“If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.”

Really boils it down.

Just because we can get pregnant does NOT mean that’s all we’re good for. But then again, women are the ones who get the extra work.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 06:34 AM

58. The bare bones bottom line:

Women scare the hell out of men.

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Response to Atticus (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 09:34 AM

62. I'm pretty busy trying to think up a new way....

to say I agree with you to the extreme. It's not as easy as it would seem given my penchant toward gross verbosity over even the simplest concepts. Still I try.

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