Gas Stoves Are Back Under Scrutiny With New US Limits Proposed

[TheProle]

(Bloomberg) -- Gas stoves are coming under fresh scrutiny as a second federal agency has now stepped into the political firestorm with a proposal for new regulations for the appliances.

The Energy Department proposal, published Wednesday, sets first-of-their-kind limits on energy consumption for the stoves, drawing fear from the industry that the regulation could effectively end the use of some products from the market. The proposal also sets energy usage standards for electric cook tops and new standards for both gas and electric ovens.

The move comes just weeks after an official with the US Consumer Product Safety Commission floated the idea of a ban, igniting criticism from the gas industry and from lawmakers ranging from House Energy and Commerce Committee Chair Representative Cathy McMorris Rodgers to Senator Joe Manchin. Within days, the head of the commission clarified that the agency had no plans for a ban, and the White House issued a statement that said the president didn’t support banning the cooking products either.

“We are concerned that this is another attempt by the Federal government to use regulations to remove viable and efficient natural gas products from the market,” Karen Harbert, president of the American Gas Association, said of the Energy Department’s proposal, adding that the group will “carefully evaluate this rule in the coming weeks.”

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/gas-stoves-back-under-scrutiny-201531302.html

[cyclonefence]

1. Ironically

Last edited Fri Feb 3, 2023, 04:07 PM - Edit history (1)

(and this is my own opinion, based on extensive polling of me, myself, and I) there must be a considerable overlap of enthusiastic gas-stove chefs and progressives. People who really care about cooking, I think, must fall into the East/West Coast liberals who are serious about things like local sourcing of food and how it is prepared. I think.

Yet the outcry I'm aware of--that the government wants to take away our stoves--is not coming from people who identify as being serious cooks. Am I wrong? I may well be.

Are there serious cooks protesting the idea that gas stoves are bad for the environment? Or is it the same old "the government can't tell me what to do (unless of course I'm pregnant)" crowd?

[questionseverything]

7. So I googled and in bucks pa your electricity could come from coal

But since I have never taken a french cooking lesson maybe I am not serious 🧐 enough to understand

[cyclonefence]

43. Ah but you do not know about our solar panels

and I thought I took out the bit about the French chef lessons. Wish I had.

[questionseverything]

45. It's great that the expense of things doesn't bother you

Wether it’s your French cooking classes or your solar panels

Please don’t pretend it’s that easy for most of us

[cyclonefence]

46. Oh I'm sorry I gave that impression

My original point was that it seems to me that people who care most about cooking are the people Spiro Agnew would have described as effete--i.e. the kind of people who care about the environment above their own preferences. Yet the complaints I'm aware of are from the usual the government can't tell me what to do crowd. Not about who can afford to buy a new stove, but about the complaining about it.

I'm truly sorry I came off as a braggart. I know that we are fortunate in what we can afford, and I am well aware that we are privileged in many ways. I can't tell you how bad I feel that I left the impression I did, and I am grateful that you called me on it.

[questionseverything]

47. Here in central Illinois when the electricity goes off (as it does occasionally )

I’m super glad to have a gas stove and gas insert in my fireplace

We block off most of the house and can stay fairly comfortable

Folks around us that have all electric apartments are miserable and before you say they should get a generator, lol, no they can’t afford it

Besides here in central Illinois our electric bills have doubled since last year so it’s really a bad time for Biden’s department heads to be talking this stupid stuff. It’s like they are totally disconnected from real life.

Btw ty for your kind words, I don’t begrudge you or anyone else who has done well just remember for most of the country this isn’t the case.

😉

[Just A Box Of Rain]

29. I'm an enthusiastic home chef and if I wasn't old and own the home I hope to spend

the rest of my life in, CA's ban on gas stoves in new construction would provoke consternation.

We all have something we don't want to be messed with. The idea of banning gas-stoves is very unpopular with me.

[dalton99a]

2. Because working-class Americans have too much money and they should go out and buy new stoves

Is the Energy Department trying to sabotage Biden?

[maxsolomon]

5. It's energy efficiency standards for NEW APPLIANCES.

It's not forcing "working class Americans" to buy new appliances.

[patphil]

3. I don't think this is something the Federal Government should be involved in.

Gas has been used for cooking for well over 100 years; same for heating.
I think it should be a personal decision about how you heat or cook.
Personally, I use gas for heat and for my kitchen cook top. My oven is electric.
I think that's a reasonable way to go.

Just leave it alone.

[maxsolomon]

4. did you read the snip? it's ENERGY EFFICIENCY.

setting standards for energy use is 100% something the Fedrul Gubmint should be involved in.

the Feds set fuel efficiency standards for ICE vehicles, don't they?

[former9thward]

16. The feds are able to set fuel standards for cars because of a law.

Passed by Congress and signed by the president. 49 U.S. Code § 32902 - Average fuel economy standards

There is no law on gas stove "efficiency".

[sl8]

19. The DOE proposal cites the Energy Policy and Conservation Act

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Policy_and_Conservation_Act#:~:text=The%20Energy%20Policy%20and%20Conservation,approach%20to%20federal%20energy%20policy.

[...]

Corporate Average Fuel Economy

Main article: Corporate Average Fuel Economy
Part A of Title III of the EPCA established the Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards for automobiles. The average fuel economy for model years, 1978, 1979, and 1980 were set at 18, 19, and 20 miles per gallon, respectively, and by 1985 the average economy was required to be 27.5 mpg. Furthermore, automobiles were required to be labeled with their fuel economies, estimated fuel costs, and the range of fuel economy for comparable vehicles after the 1976 model year.[1] The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration was given the authority to regulate fuel economies for automobiles and light trucks.[2]

Energy Conservation Program for Consumer Products

Main article: Energy Conservation Program for Consumer Products
Part B of Title III of the EPCA established the Energy Conservation Program, which gives the Department of Energy the "authority to develop, revise, and implement minimum energy conservation standards for appliances and equipment."[3] As currently implemented, the Department of Energy currently enforces test procedures and minimum standards for more than 50 products covering residential, commercial and industrial, lighting, and plumbing applications.[4]

[...]

[former9thward]

20. Part B is basically a labeling law as it applies to appliances.

Labels on appliances to show how much energy they use. Nothing about stopping methane use. Joe Biden has already said this is going nowhere in his administration.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/12/biden-gas-stoves-republicans

[sl8]

22. From the proposal:

That article is about the CPSC flailex from a few days ago.

This DOE proposal is looking at whether new efficiency standards for gas and electric stoves are appropriate.

[...]

Summary
The Energy Policy and Conservation Act, as amended (“EPCA”), prescribes energy conservation standards for various consumer products and certain commercial and industrial equipment, including consumer conventional cooking products. EPCA also requires the U.S. Department of Energy (“DOE”) to periodically determine whether more-stringent standards would be technologically feasible and economically justified, and would result in significant energy savings. In this supplemental notice of proposed rulemaking (“SNOPR”), DOE proposes new and amended energy conservation standards for consumer conventional cooking products, and also announces a public meeting to receive comment on these proposed standards and associated analyses and results.

[...]

[sl8]

24. It's not just labeling, it includes mandatory energy efficiency standards for appliances.

Here are the current ones:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title10-vol3/pdf/CFR-2012-title10-vol3-sec430-32.pdf

[former9thward]

25. This administration is not going to ban gas stoves.

Despite the wishes of some.

[sl8]

26. Who said anything about a ban?

This is a only a proposal on whether or not to update the existing energy efficiency standards for gas and electric stoves.

[DBoon]

8. We no longer have cars that require leaded gasoline

for similar environmental and public health reasons

[former9thward]

14. Getting rid of lead in the environment was based on consensus based science.

The war on gas stoves is based on speculation. There is no consensus on it.

[DBoon]

15. there is a strong consensus that methane is a significant global warming gas

That is not speculation.

[former9thward]

17. So?

If there scientific consensus gas stoves are significantly contributing to methane? Please show it.

[NickB79]

27. Since you asked

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/27/1075874473/gas-stoves-climate-change-leak-methane

Researchers estimate that up to 1.3% of the gas used in a stove leaks into the atmosphere. Individually, that's a tiny climate impact compared with things like coal-fired power plants. But Jackson says if you add up the more than 40 million gas stoves in the U.S., the amount of leaked methane every year has about the same climate change effect as the carbon dioxide from 500,000 gasoline-powered cars.

[Kaleva]

6. This appears to not apply to LP gas stoves

[sl8]

10. What do you base that on?

Skimming the proposal, all I see listed are gas stoves (type of gas not specified), and the various types of electric stoves.

[Kaleva]

31. The OP states natural gas

"We are concerned that this is another attempt by the Federal government to use regulations to remove viable and efficient natural gas products from the market,” Karen Harbert, president of the American Gas Association, said of the Energy Department’s proposal, adding that the group will “carefully evaluate this rule in the coming weeks.”

[sl8]

32. OK, thanks.

Keep in mind that American Gas Association is a natural gas advocacy group.

[Kaleva]

33. True

The proposals could apply to LP gas

[sl8]

9. DOE proposal:

https://www.regulations.gov/document/EERE-2014-BT-STD-0005-0096

[Freethinker65]

11. Love my natural gas, inefficient, non sealed burner, cooktop.

Bought it on a dual fuel model over 20 years ago.

If I needed to replace it and only more efficient models were available, I am pretty sure I could survive quite well. Though I do not prefer electric cooktops, I use one for a few months/year when I visit family property. One can adapt.

[maxsolomon]

35. Why would you love inefficiency?

Would you love an inefficient gas-fired HW heater?

[Freethinker65]

39. I don't love it because it is inefficient.

But you knew that already.

The oven is electric, and I paid extra for that. I wanted more even baking and twenty years ago that was recommended. Love my gas cooktop.

My point was that although I love my dual fuel stove, if I needed to replace it with something more efficient, I could adapt quite easily. I can also cook quite well on an electric, and could learn induction.

When our NG water heater needed to be replaced, we replaced it with a more costly, but efficient, power vent one. No issues so far. Can't say I have affection for my water heater though.

[sl8]

12. The proposal includes electric stoves, as well. nt

[ret5hd]

13. Reminds me of the old incandescent/LED war...

of a few years back. Bloody and vicious. No prisoners, if ya’ ain’t fer me yer agin me.

Huh…never hear nothing about that anymore. I wonder if there was some purposeful pot-stirring going on?

[Autumn]

18. These politicians are willing to ban gas stoves but not guns.

[sl8]

23. What ban? This is regarding possible new efficiency standards for gas and electric stoves.

Similar to the CAFE standards for automobiles

[Texasgal]

21. Ridiculous.

I was only able to have warm food and hot water this past 30 hours or so because of my GAS stove!!

[maxsolomon]

30. perhaps you should read the article before you react?

IT IS NOT PROPOSING TO BAN GAS STOVES.

[NickB79]

28. The fact so many at DU think this is a ban on gas stoves is disheartening

It's a proposed efficiency standard on new stoves.

It doesn't ban gas stoves.

It doesn't require you to buy a new stove.

It would force manufacturers to improve efficiency and save you money.

But even here on DU, the rightwing "Biden wants to take your stove!" claptrap has managed to gain a foothold in people's minds.

[malaise]

34. Why would anyone use a gas stove in countries

where windows are closed most of the year. I don't get it. There are enough studies linking cooking gas to cancer.
My windows are always open and every stove I have owned has been electric.
Why is this even an issue?

[BumRushDaShow]

36. Have been trying to reply to you but

It's been almost 2 centuries worth of home heating/cooking transitions - from coal heat/wood-burning stoves in some cases to oil heat/electric stoves or from coal heat/electric stoves to gas heat/gas stoves (my grandparents). This also included hot water heaters.

One of the big issues in the northern states due to periodic snow/ice was fuel delivery (coal/oil, where here in PA, "coal was king" ) and that prompted a move to simplify the fuel movement by ditching the trucks and moving fuel (gas) through pipes. I think here in Philly, we have one of the if not the only municipally-owned gas plants left which services the city (for those who have gas service). Most other places have private gas companies (including one of our electric providers that also provides gas for suburban residents).

The OTHER big reason for the gas (which you see reflected in the oft-used term "gaslighting" ) is the use of gas lines for street and home lighting - especially in the cities. This is still around downtown Philly at some locations (I guess for historic purposes but obviously not all connected as far as I know - https://ruins.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/remnants-of-philadelphias-gas-network/





I know that the house that I mostly grew up in apparently had gas lamp fixtures on the walls when it was first built (around WW1) but those were eventually removed and replaced with electric, and then those electric fixtures were removed and the wall plastered over where people just used table/floor lamps, but there were upgraded electric sockets installed in the baseboards near the floor about 5ft below where those old wall lamps used to be.

PGW (Philadelphia Gas Works) has had an... ahem... checkered history since the 1830s.

PGW's version of history (and they mentioned that there were still 24 gas lamps on Independence Mall which were converted in 1963 so they might be still in use).

So there was a whole gas infrastructure in place that spread out for other purposes.

It's like trying to compare countries that went from "Zero" to cell phones or "Zero" to "bullet trains" - the U.S. has literally slogged through industrial change after industrial change after industrial change and much of the remnants of earlier eras of infrastructure are still around as reminders.

(see what you made me do!!! )

[malaise]

37. What a fabulous response - now it makes sense

thank you so much for this

[BumRushDaShow]

38. Sorry it was long

This is why Biden's infrastructure bill(s) have been needed. To start replacing the old utility infrastructure.

He and VP Harris are supposed to be here in Philly today to visit one of the water treatment plants that is about 7 or 8 miles from me but that I drive by all the time when visiting one of my sisters. I believe it is to tout the effort to replace the old lead pipes that ran out of there to homes/businesses - notably the old water mains - https://6abc.com/president-joe-biden-philadelphia-visit-water-upgrade-lead-service-removal/12763981/

We still have a few underground water mains and waste pipes downtown in the historic area, that were constructed of tree trunks and as they find them, they have removed/replaced them!

205-year-old wooden water pipes unearthed in Washington Square West

Moral of the story: Philly is a really, really old city

By Melissa Romero May 5, 2017, 1:00pm EDT
These wooden water pipes date back to 1812. Photo by PWD construction engineer Mike Schramm

Philly resident Julie Snell wasn’t too pleased when she saw that the Spruce Street bike lane was blocked by Philadelphia Water Department trucks earlier this week. But what originally started out as a nuisance turned into a fascinating discovery of some of the city’s oldest water infrastructure.

Snell had biked up to crews who were repairing a water line along the 900 block of Spruce Street in Washington Square West. But the workers had to stop when they unearthed “what looked like old logs.”

Snell, a landscape architect, in fact, realized that they may actually be water pipes. As she recounted to the Philadelphia Water Department, she had once heard Philadelphia Water Department historian Adam Levine give a talk about Philly’s old water infrastructure, which highlighted the use of wooden water mains.

Snell was right. Levine did some digging and discovered that the so-called logs were in fact super old water pipes, dating back to 1812. That’s around the time that the city was using both wooden and cast-iron piping, until 1832 when only the latter was used.


Photo by Julie Snell

(snip)

https://philly.curbed.com/2017/5/5/15545532/philadelphia-water-infrastructure-old-history-wooden-pipes

Additional - https://news.wef.org/found-in-philadelphia-200-year-old-wooden-water-mains/

[malaise]

44. You covered all the corners

Thanks again

Vey interesting as well

[tinrobot]

41. Because gas is a great way to cook, plus a lot of homes don't have the wiring for electric.

Gas gives you very controllable heat. Electric simply doesn't compare. Induction is close, but those are expensive and will only work with specific cookware. And neither will heat a wok properly or heat tortillas/char peppers over an open flame.

I love my gas stove. In order to replace it, I'd have to spend thousands to upgrade my electrical service, plus the cost of the new stove. And all of that for something that doesn't quite work as well. It's a tough sell.

[tinrobot]

40. In the grand scheme, this is a losing issue.

I'm sure the emissions from gas stoves pale in comparison to other types of emissions, such as manufacturing and transportation. So, in the grand scheme, it is a minor contributor to warming.

Yet, it is becoming huge hot button issue. It serves up a lot of ready-made outrage for Fox News to use. Plus, a lot of serious cooks from both sides of the fence are very passionate about gas.

I say go shut down a bunch of coal plants before coming for the gas stoves.

[VGNonly]

42. A downside of electricity,

more use of natural gas (NG) to fire gas turbines for peak electrical needs. California for example uses about 45% of its NG for electric production. Another concern, how much of that NG comes from fracking?