General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsInnocent people have been executed. Execution is more expensive than life in prison.
These are facts.
Bloodlust and the desire for vengeance which often fuels it are powerful motivators, but they do not negate facts.
http://madamenoire.com/73840/exonerated-after-execution-12-men-and-one-woman-found-innocent-after-being-put-to-death/
The execution of Troy Davis in Georgia last week despite tremendous doubt about his guilt has brought the issue of capital punishment into the national spotlight. As a country that supports use of the death penalty, America is in poor company with the worlds great dictatorships and autocracies [such as] Iran, Zimbabwe, China, North Korea, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Egypt, Ethiopia, Cuba, [and] Belarus according to The Atlantic while we are supposed to be the land of the free. Far above and beyond the politically nasty associations with capital punishment is of course the moral concern over accidentally putting innocent people to death. It is likely that the average American believes this is a rare occurrence worth the social value of the death penalty as a deterrent from violent crime. Unfortunately innocent people are often placed on death row.
...
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/12/national/12DEAT.html
Afederal judge in Boston said yesterday that there was mounting evidence innocent people were being executed. But he declined to rule the death penalty unconstitutional.
"In the past decade, substantial evidence has emerged to demonstrate that innocent individuals are sentenced to death, and undoubtedly executed, much more often than previously understood," the judge, Mark L. Wolf of Federal District Court in Boston, wrote in a decision allowing a capital case to proceed to trial.
He cited the exonerations of more than 100 people on death row based on DNA and other evidence.
"The day may come," the judge said, "when a court properly can and should declare the ultimate sanction to be unconstitutional in all cases. However, that day has not yet come."
...
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-and-death-penalty
The most recent exoneree is Damon Thibodeaux (No. 141) of Louisiana in 2012.
List of Exonerees Since 1973 (including criteria for inclusion on List)
Innocence Database Searchable database of all exonerations since 1973--allows you to search and sort for cases by year, state, race, and other variables.
Descriptions of Each Exoneration By Year of Inmate's Release:
...
This country uses the death penalty disproportionately against minorities and the poor.
When will it be enough? IMO this needs to stop, now.
Vox Moi
(546 posts)Let's face it.
We are a capital punishment society with the highest murder rate in the world.
Capital punishment is simply not effective as a deterrent to murder.
It is:
- impossible to administer fairly
- sometimes responsible for the death of innocent people
- incredibly expensive
It is a misguided act of revenge and it's about time to give it up.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)It was dismaying to see the ballot measure to abolish this practice failed in California.
Even moreso to see such enthusiastic support for it here today.
PA Democrat
(13,225 posts)"Do Executions Lower Homicide Rates? The Views of Leading Criminologists," relied on questionnaires completed by the most pre-eminent criminologists in the country. Fully 75% of them agree that "debates about the death penalty distract Congress and state legislatures from focusing on real solutions to crime problems." Respondents were not asked for their personal opinions about the wisdom of the death penalty, but instead to answer the questions only on the basis of their understanding of the empirical research.
Given this latest study, it is difficult for me to see any reason for our nation to maintain a policy of executing criminals. Several men and women have been released from prison -- and death row -- over the past decade. Some were just days away from execution. But upon review of DNA and other evidence, they were determined to be innocent. If such a determination had not been made, innocent Americans would have been put to death. Right now, a man who may well be innocent, Troy Davis, is facing execution in Georgia. Seven of nine witnesses have recanted their testimony against him, but no court has ever heard his claim of innocence. Any day now, the U.S. Supreme Court may, or may not, intervene to save his life.
Furthermore, the cost of executing a prisoner is far greater than keeping him in prison for life. A recent New Jersey Policy Perspectives report concluded that the state's death penalty has cost taxpayers $253 million since 1983, a figure that is over and above the costs that would have been incurred had the state utilized a sentence of life without parole instead of death.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)And the fact that it's resulted in the deaths of innocent people should be all we need to know.
ismnotwasm
(41,980 posts)Although there are some crimes so heinous it seems that execution is the only fitting punishment, it's a lopsided affair and accomplishes nothing.
Life in prison without the possibility of parole, is just as effective at removing the worst of us. The problem is those grieving families who can't stand the idea of some asshole criminal living when a loved one has had life stolen in one way or another.
My SIL works in corrections in a 'special offenders' unit i.e. child molesters and rapists, the mentally ill who commit horrible cries and are deemed to dangerous for a lock down psychiatric hospital. As far as he's concerned, you could take these 'special offenders' put them in a wooden warehouse and set it on fire. He knows what they've down, and what they are capable of when they get out. And many of them WILL be released at some point. (One of the reasons I'm delighted at the legalization of marijuana passed in my state (WA) is that it will take pressure of the prison system--a deeply damaged system, and perhaps start keeping people inside who belong there and keeping people out who don't)
If we wanted a deterrent, we'd have to regress to public hanging or beheading, or cutting off various body parts, or burning people alive--/which probably wouldn't work either. It would become a new reality show.
It's a difficult emotional topic, but state sanction murder is state sanctioned murder.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Life in prison will have to suffice. It just isn't worth the risk to kill an innocent person.
It would also be nice if we could focus on rehabilitation and not just punishment, for those who could be rehabilitated.
ismnotwasm
(41,980 posts)Privatization is not helping. Neither is mandatory sentencing for certain crimes.
Eliminating the death penalty, from a pragmatic point of view and implementing life without, is as you say cost effective. If lifers are not amendable to rehabilitation, well then at least they're out of the way. And they stay that way.
My daughter worked in corrections for one year after being in the military. I can't begin to explain what a cesspool it was--not the prisoners, they are who they are, but the entire prison-industrial structure. It's a giant mess.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)I think we should keep it, for really high-profile cases (like McVeigh).
But in general it makes more sense (morally, economically, etc) to simply have life sentences.
I suspect we'll get there eventually going by public opinion on the issue.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)and the death penalty will remain. Compare California and Texas. Both have the death penalty but they are very different cultures.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)ismnotwasm
(41,980 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)I am anti-dp because I do not think that any government should have that power over its citizens, as a pure liberty issue.
That being said, when I look at the efforts of anti-dp folks who argue "well, it's just about vengeance," I sense a difficulty in confronting a societal truth--there is a need for vengeance in the body politic.
I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying it's moral. I'm saying that until the anti-dp folks come up with an effective answer to that need, you won't to move people into a consensus.
For example, I think LWOP is a move toward addressing that need. That is a 'life for a life.'
redqueen
(115,103 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)room is backwards. But you still gotta get him out of the room.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)is to focus our efforts on changing society so that we are progressing and evolving toward a more equitable society (as most other countries are doing already).
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)to push and talk about that option in the states.
Then, a comparative study of the LWOP vs. the DP prisoners should be made, focusing on court and containment costs, persons released, etc.
ismnotwasm
(41,980 posts)And I agree with you, the death penalty gives a state sanctioned right for human being(s) to murder another human being I do take issue with how distorted and convoluted our justice system is, when is comes to 'crime and punishment' The death penalty, part of a larger problem-- although certainly the most extreme, any way you look at it.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)effective counter.
I think LWOP, with strict rules and regulations available for all to see is a way to counter the emotions. If you can say "Look, this sob is gonna rot...and it's gonna be cheaper...and he's not gonna get appeal after appeal" then I think you answer the need for vengeance.
ismnotwasm
(41,980 posts)But vengeance does seem to be satisfied far more by death. I've often wondered what would happen if family members were required to perform the final act leading to death.
Horse with no Name
(33,956 posts)by forcing those that are in need to jump through random hoops.
Unfortunately, both of these situations have less than desired unintended consequences.
nolabear
(41,963 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)I can't help but think this should not be so hard to change.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)and a lack of true National Health Care are two of the reasons we are not "The greatest Country on Earth".
redqueen
(115,103 posts)We seem to have a long way to go on this issue.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)....I find executing someone who is undisputedly guilty just as repulsive.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)It is sad that I felt that addressing this issue such a way would have not made much of an impact, or even been more or a hindrance than not, but oh well.
Horse with no Name
(33,956 posts)and I wish I still had the facts but it is much more expensive to mount a death penalty case than it is to imprison someone for life. And if you screw up? The person is still alive.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)And you're right... a mistake in these cases ends up with innocent people being executed. That just isn't acceptable IMO.
TBF
(32,060 posts)I wavered a bit with the Timothy McVeigh case, as that was particularly vile, but in fact if kept in prison it's less likely that his sort would become some sort of martyr. We have these for-profit prisons and I'd just as soon keep murderers in there (for cheaper than executing them) and let the MJ dealers out.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)TBF
(32,060 posts)at the very least we'd be making some progress.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I'd have no problem with making it all legal and controlled. That way addicts could still have jobs and not be forced to resort to crime. And maybe it would cut down on the use of drugs like meth, bath salts, and krokodil.