The Snopes analysis of the DOE and FBI ORIGIN OF COVID release states " there is no

[JohnSJ]

evidence these agencies are basing their assessments on specific scientific arguments or discoveries. Based on the limited details released by the intelligence community, in fact, the evidence supporting a laboratory-associated incident appears to be largely if not entirely circumstantial. Several lines of specific scientific inquiry still broadly support a natural origin of SARS-CoV-2 and run counter to the claims of the DOE and the FBI.”

………

“ Until these agencies provide more details to possibly substantiate their findings, however, the publicly available, scientific evidence continues to support a natural origin for SARS-CoV-2.”


https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/03/03/fbi-doe-covid-origin/?lh_aid=4596918&lh_cid=3bhfph7egx&lh_em=[e-mail]&di=6e1b925a8358d451e909377bf713ed6b

This reminds me so much of the WMDs in Iraq that was pushed with the the help of the illustrious media

[hlthe2b]

1. Thank you, Snopes. I could not agree more. Identifying the origin of a biologic agent requires

a scientific approach. Not a mere technological "reconnaissance" approach...

[The Magistrate]

2. Cold But Fair, Sir

An agency with a counter-intelligence brief will see something 'off' about most anything it can which took place in a foe's country, and a minor agency is easily spooked in one direction or another in fields beyond its expertise.

[roamer65]

3. +1000

No one will ever know the truth on it.

[Auggie]

4. Exactly

[patphil]

5. Not having access to real, credible data, I have to state that what I'm about to say is conjecture.

Which is about the same level of information we got from the DOE/FBI report.
I mean, really, Department of Energy?

I believe the CDC assessment that Covid-19 began in that marketplace in Wuhan.
But, it is possible that, after the outbreak, the lab in question isolated the virus that was causing the outbreak, and, at some point while they were investigating it, managed to mishandle it and allow it to get out into the general environment, where it already was infecting people.
I think the lab in question wasn't the source of the virus, but facilitated it's spread through poor lab practices.
Given the airborne nature of the disease, it made very little difference to the actual outcome of the virus if this did happen. But, if it was the case, it allowed those people who wanted to blame the whole thing on China an opportunity to do so.

As I said, no credible evidence, just my opinion.
And I feel it has at least as much probability of being true as the DOE/FBI report.

[oldsoftie]

12. Well, it was easy to blame China for them not being upfront about it.

The virus may not have leaked, but that the only way anyone was getting any info; leaks. Because China wasn't telling us jack squat till they were called on it. Although trump's dumb ass told all of us they were being "great". But that was probably because they gave him a parade or something.

[patphil]

30. Yup.

[DENVERPOPS]

22. I concur with you pat phil

Having had Microbiology and virology in college and having watched the WHO and CDC reports for years, I first tuned into this Virus in the late fall when information was first coming available from the CDC and WHO, but not all over the media yet........

I had studied the 1918 Pandemic, swine flu epidemics, Ebola, etc etc etc.......I also learned a bit about the USAMRID research lab here in the U.S.

Many times, the first information is often un-filtered, un-censored, raw information. Later special interest groups change it to meet their needs, most often Political interests or Corporate interests in all the different countries, including the U.S. of A.........

As I recall, the very first information was that the virus was found in a bat or bats sold in the public market in China. The Chinese released actual pictures of the two story lab building that was where it was being diagnosed and researched. The international groups had previously worked with that lab in particular, to increase the safety of their shabby handling of viruses and biological materials. The Chinese felt originally that the virus had been accidentally released by the scientists in that particular building....... The Chinese had immediately boarded up the two story building, and had "arrested" and isolated everyone in the building, (never to be seen or talked about again, BTW)

Sounded to me as pretty logical and plausible information as to what happened.

There are countless labs, in tons of countries, experimenting with Biological and Chemical weapons, Many having scientists that do not adhere to the strict handling required of those agents that they are studying......

Many scientists were not surprised by a Pandemic Virus being found, and had said it wasn't a matter of IF, but WHEN this would occur......The leading scientists have also said, there are many other Viruses out there, possibly far worse, lurking in the shadows.....

[womanofthehills]

53. State Dept Cables warned of safety issues at Wujan Lab

Agree!!!! —State Department cables warned of safety
issues at Wuhan lab studying bat
coronaviruses
By Josh Rogin
April 14, 2020 at 5:00 a.m. CDT
Two years before the novel coronavirus pandemic upended the world, U.S. Embassy officials visited a Chinese research facility in the city of Wuhan several times and sent two official warnings back to Washington about inadequate safety at the lab, which was conducting risky studies on coronaviruses from bats. The cables have fueled discussions inside the U.S. government about whether this or another Wuhan lab was the source of the virus — even though conclusive proof has yet to emerge. https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/kleelerner/files/20200414_wapo_-_state_department_cables_warned_of_safety_issues_at_wuhan_lab_studying_bat_coronaviruses_-_the_washington_post.pdf

[DENVERPOPS]

61. Most interesting

was that the Chinese released a picture of that lab building, and "boarded up" that lab building immediately, and they immediately "disappeared" everyone in that building.

But the world should now be concerned with labs around the world studying Methyl-Ethyl Bad Shit Viruses, Bacteria, and Chemical Weapons and should be forced into practicing safe handling practices by all the other countries.....

However, countries won't offer up their research on such things, so it would be hard to police their abuses.

The psychotic leaders and military officers of many nations are hell bent on destroying this beautiful planet earth and the human race....

Every time I think of the world using the Geneva Convention to ban such things, especially in warfare, you need to look no further than what Assad did to his own people a few years ago, when he used Banned Chemical Poisonous Gas weapons, on villages of his own people. Trump withdrew our military forces, literally overnight, from Syria, allowing Assad to use more of those banned chemical bombs, that incidentally were supplied by Russia. Our military forces were preventing Putin & Assad from using them to take over the Government of Syria, and Trump assisted Putin with his goal of putting Assad in power permanently, under Putin's control............By The Way...The U.N. and Hague had just finished their research in Syria, and had collected a ton of evidence showing that Assad had in fact used those weapons, and the investigators were on their way back to the U.N. and the Hague when all this Putin/Assad crap took place.

Of course, then my mind goes to wondering why, the U.S. military has an inventory of 65,000 WE EYE, chemical bombs in the Pueblo Colorado Army Arsenal, when they had been banned by the Geneva Convention.......And, BTW, they are all starting to corrode, and rust thru their metal jackets, allowing leakage.........

WASF

[WarGamer]

33. Probably not....

SARS-CoV2 has NEVER.

Let me repeat. SARS-CoV2/COVID-19 has NEVER been traced back to ANY animal or wet market, nothing. ZERO evidence.

Nearly 20 years ago, SARS-CoV was traced back to animals in a wet market nearly 1500 miles from Wuhan.

But WE DO know that the lab in Wuhan was working with SARS viruses...

The FBI and DOE are on the right track. But the CCP would like the world to believe it was NOT a lab leak.

I can't believe this argument became politicized.

[oldsoftie]

37. It politicized because of what happens if that IS where it came from

If they find credible hard evidence that it WAS the lab, well thats what the Trumpers have been saying for 3 years. And one fat orange man will crow "I told you so!" from the rooftop; along with his mouthpieces.
But I'll say this, I dont CARE who is right; I care about the truth. And what level of evidence? My initial thoughts; totally unscientific, were that this may very well have had human hands in it. Simply because of all the varied side effects of it compared to all other Covid viruses. They all seemed to have a baseline of the same effects; but THIS one shows up with hair falling out, lost taste & smell, blood clots, all kinds of unusual stuff. So I really hope they come to the correct conclusion based on facts not desires
And that goes for the vaccines too; since they've BEEN politicized. If these studies being done show too many cardiac side effects for young people, then we need to know about it. No matter WHO that makes right. I've had my Moderna & the 1st booster. And I had Covid & apparently never knew it. But right now, I think thats where I stop till I know more. There's nothing wrong with that. Remember, we're dealing not just with government but pharmaceutical companies & billions of dollars.

[W_HAMILTON]

38. You think they could trace it back to an animal 1500 miles away...

...but can't trace it back to a specific lab?

And if your subsequent claim is that we don't have access to said lab, well, guess that's on the Trump administration for removing all the American personnel we had over there specifically to limit/prevent incidents like a potential lab leak from taking place.

[WarGamer]

45. Yes, it IS on the Trump admin...

Also do you remember the US intelligence reports from 2021 stating that in late 2019, workers from the WIV studying SARS became sick?

All just coincidences... and we'll never know the truth because it's being hidden.

[Nevilledog]

40. The science does not support your theory.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/28/1160162845/what-does-the-science-say-about-the-origin-of-the-sars-cov-2-pandemic

*snip*

But at the end of the day, the origin of the pandemic is also a scientific question. Virologists who study pandemic origins are much less divided than the U.S. intelligence community. They say there is "very convincing" data and "overwhelming evidence" pointing to an animal origin.

In particular, scientists published two extensive, peer-reviewed papers in Science in July 2022, offering the strongest evidence to date that the COVID-19 pandemic originated in animals at a market in Wuhan, China. Specifically, they conclude that the coronavirus most likely jumped from a caged wild animal into people at the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, where a huge COVID-19 outbreak began in December 2019.

Virologist Angela Rasmussen, who contributed to one of the Science papers, says the DOE's "low confident" conclusion doesn't "negate the affirmative evidence for zoonotic [or animal] origin nor do they add any new information in support of lab origin."

"Many other [news] outlets are presenting this as new conclusive proof that the lab origin hypothesis is equally as plausible as the zoonotic origin hypothesis," Rasmussen wrote in an email to NPR, "and that is a misrepresentation of the evidence for either."

So just what is the scientific evidence that the pandemic began at the seafood market?

Neither of the Science papers provide the smoking gun — that is, an animal infected with the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus at a market.

But they come close. They provide photographic evidence of wild animals such as raccoon dogs and a red fox, which can be infected with and shed SARS-CoV-2, sitting in cages in the market in late 2019. What's more, the caged animals are shown in or near a stall where scientists found SARS-CoV-2 virus on a number of surfaces, including on cages, carts and machines that process animals after they are slaughtered at the market.

*snip*

The Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in Wuhan was the early epicenter of the COVID-19 pandemic

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abp8715

[WarGamer]

43. And the FBI and DOE don't support any of that.

One more time.

There is no direct evidence of SARS-CoV2 EVER found in any animal.

OLD studies use conjecture based on SARS-COV... in 2003

But we DO know the epicenter of the outbreak just happened to be the home of the lab studying SARS viruses...

We'll probably never know, especially since the Chinese will be pushing the zoonotic transmission line forever...

[Nevilledog]

60. And there's zero evidence it escaped from a lab.

[WarGamer]

62. And still...

That's the conclusion that the DOE and FBI have settled on.

Since there's no evidence... it's kinda like finding oil spots on your driveway and the options are... the Amazon delivery van who pulls up there 3x a week or...

Your cousin's Mercedes who hasn't been to your house since 2018.

You've never seen a leak... and Amazon won't let you inspect the van.

[Nevilledog]

63. Why are you discounting that 4 agencies lean toward natural origin?

From the npr article I provided:


And at this point, the U.S. intelligence community still has no consensus about the origin of SARS-CoV-2. Four of the eight intelligence agencies lean toward a natural origin for the virus, with "low confidence," while two of them — the DOE and the Federal Bureau of Investigation — support a lab origin, with the latter having "moderate confidence" about its conclusion.

[womanofthehills]

56. And, Jeffrey Sacks who was appointed by the Lancet to research beginnings of coronavirus

Had to fire most of his researchers because they all had connections to lab and funding and lied to him saying they did not.

“Now, what is the alternative hypothesis? The alternative hypothesis is quite straightforward. And that is that there was a lot of research underway in the United States and China on taking SARS-like viruses, manipulating them in the laboratory, and creating potentially far more dangerous viruses. And the particular virus that causes COVID-19, called SARS-Cov-2, is notable because it has a piece of its genetic makeup that makes the virus more dangerous. And that piece of the genome is called the “furin cleavage site.” Now, what’s interesting, and concerning if I may say so, is that the research that was underway very actively and being promoted, was to insert furin cleavage sites into SARS-like viruses to see what would happen. Oops! ““https://www.jeffsachs.org/interviewsandmedia/64rtmykxdl56ehbjwy37m5hfahwnm5

[Lonestarblue]

6. Had the Trump administration not fired the US scientists working in Wuhan,

we might now have a better idea of how the virus started. People tend to forget that Trump, through John Bolton removed US scientists from Wuhan and Beijing saying they weren’t needed.

[jaxexpat]

7. "This reminds me so much of the WMDs in Iraq that was pushed with the help of the illustrious media"

Gosh, would they really try that stunt again.....I mean.....really? Just because it worked exactly as they'd hoped the last time and the time before and.... you get the picture.


I daily come ever closer to a belief wherein the reality revealed through the various lenses of cynicism is more reliable and accurate means to the perception of reality than any other rule of thumb or religion or philosophy.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

8. It strikes me as highly irresponsible for this action by those agencies.

First question to them- What's the point?
Second question- Where's the proof or evidence?
Third question- Who is the driving force behind issuing these statements?

[paleotn]

15. My initial thought too. That's not their "lane." CDC, different story, but DOE and FBI???

that's weird.

[Zeitghost]

24. DOE

Runs our network of national labs, they are subject matter experts. I’ll take their scientist’s opinion over snopes.


There are competing theories and that’s okay. I’m not sure why those on either side have so much vested in one that they can’t stand the thought of somebody else leaning towards the other.

[paleotn]

41. Their conclusion is it's a low probability at best.

There is no solid evidence of a lab leak. After all this time. None. Now absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, BUT I can also "theorize" that Covid is a bio-program perpetrated by aliens. What bothers me is conspiracy garbage is considered a "competing theory" by some. They latch on to low probability and go...see! It was a lab leak!!!!111!1!!! Follow the facts please.

[Zeitghost]

47. That is completely false

Low confidence means over 50%,i.e more likely to be true than false. Low confidence is not the same as unconfident or low probability. That is not what the term means in that context.

[paleotn]

64. Hores shit!

No it's not. Where'd you get that complete bullshit from?

[Celerity]

59. The FBI report is moderate confidence. The 4 agencies who said wet market are all low confidence.

Follow the facts please.

[paleotn]

65. Who you gonna believe....

Four other intelligence agencies and the National Intelligence Council believe the route was natural transmission from animal to human.

snip

“There is not a consensus right now in the U.S. government about exactly how COVID started,” National Security Council spokesman John Kirby said during a White House press briefing. “There is just not an intelligence community consensus.”

You were saying?

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2023-03-01/fbi-director-says-covid-19-origin-is-most-likely-a-lab-incident-in-china

[Celerity]

68. I never claimed it started from a lab leak or via mutation in the wild. We simply do do not know

with any real concrete certainty how it started.

My issue is with people who try to bow up and claim the ONLY correct and acceptable answer is that it started via an in-the-wild, naturally occurring animal to human transmission. Another issue I have is that these types also often try to denigrate anyone disagreeing with their self-proclaimed utter certainty.


your

You were saying?

is thus non germane in terms of its applicability to me

[paleotn]

69. You're not getting my point....

Inconclusive means what you just typed does it not? I did not state it was confirmed to be via in the wild only. My point is, lets not go down conspiratorial rabbit holes.

There is no solid evidence of a lab leak. After all this time. None. Now absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, BUT I can also "theorize" that Covid is a bio-program perpetrated by aliens. What bothers me is conspiracy garbage is considered a "competing theory" by some. They latch on to low probability and go...see! It was a lab leak!!!!111!1!!! Follow the facts please.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=17700505

There is no solid evidence either way, thus separate agencies have come to different conclusions.

Read comprehensively please. Or do you simply have some kind of problem with me?

[WarGamer]

34. Actually it IS the DOE "lane"

[paleotn]

42. Didn't know that.

Thanks for the info. Still, the conclusion is low probability.

[WarGamer]

46. We'll never know for sure...

China isn't helping.

[Zeitghost]

50. False

You do not understand the terms being used in this context. Low confidence is not low probability.

[paleotn]

66. Dude, please.

[Zeitghost]

70. Please what?

Would you prefer to keep believing/spreading falsehoods?

Low confidence with regard to papers like this means >50% likelihood or more probably than not. It in no way indicates a low probability. It is the same level of confidence given to the other leading theory involving a zoonotic origin. It really is that simple.

[womanofthehills]

49. How can you say it's not in DOD's lane?

Who do you think runs the 17 National Labs including Los Alamos, , supervises bio lab research, overseas American nuclear weapons program and has top scientists? It’s the DOD.

[paleotn]

67. DOE not DOD.

I've been corrected. Lighten the fuck up, Francis.

[malaise]

9. K & R

for truth

[peppertree]

10. Judith Miller? Miller? Anyone?

[womanofthehills]

51. And the NYT's printing Judith Miller's creepy stuff? Anyone?

[peppertree]

55. The New Yuck Times

All the ooze that's fit to print.

[Botany]

11. The "it came from a Chinese lab" meme has been a big talking point from the right.

The best scientific evidence I have seen is that it came from the wet markets in Wuhan because that
is what evolutionary biologists traced it back to by looking @ the C-19's genome. Now no doubt the
Chinese did get the virus into their labs and study but that was after it was "out there." And we have
real good proof that the C-19 virus disease was out in the world long before it was supposed to have
gotten out. I'm pretty sure I had it from the last week of 2019 to the 1st week of February 2020.

[Botany]

31. I THINK that the C-19 virus came from the wet markets in Wuhan and after people began getting ...

.... sick from it the Chinese isolated the virus and mapped its genome in the lab. We know that China
had mapped out the virus' genome and turned that data over to the WHO (world health organization)
who gave it to scientists in Germany and they developed the first tests for the virus/disease and that
TFG rejected that German test kit and tried to make his own which didn't work.

The mutations of the virus are just errors in replications over the virus' life cycle and since virus's have
short life cycles the chances of mutations (new strains) are very high. Especially where mouth breathing
dumb fucks don't get vaccinated and become hosts to new strains of C-19 that our vaccines might not
work as well against.

BTW this shit should be well behind us if it wasn't for misinformation about the virus, the disease, its life
cycle, basic biomedical science, vaccines and people like DeSantis & Abbott actively working to spread the
disease. Fox and Trump have killed millions with their vile lies. And if HRC hadn't had the White House
robbed from her those epidemiologists in China would not have been fired, we would not have pulled out
a global pandemic response task force, and the 18 tons of American PPP would not have been shipped to
China by Jared and Pompeo because Trump and Kush-Turd owed China millions.

BTW most of the post is based on my readings and guess work and I would urge anybody to please double
check what I have written.

[DENVERPOPS]

25. Hey Botany

A good friend's 15 YO daughter contracted a serious case of Covid in December of 2019. The Doctors had no idea what it was, but they barely saved her life. She has serious "LONG COVID" at this point. They were living in Amsterdam at the time.......

I started watching the CDC and WHO talking about a new virus about that same time. In January, my wife and I started stockpiling stuff in our home. Food, Medicine, masks, medical gloves, disinfectants, alcohol, Peroxide etc etc etc. We had no problem finding stuff, because we were well ahead of the release of info to the mass media. We were still stockpiling months later and were unloading a bunch of stuff from our vehicle to our home, and wearing masks. As we unloaded, a RW Trump Humper living next door to us, yelled HOAX, and laughed at our stupidity.

Both he and his wife had college degrees, but for some reason neither had been required to even take basic Biology.........

[Botany]

32. I didn't realize I had had it until after I got the J & J shot so testing for it would be useless.

n/t

[oldsoftie]

39. OK the BAD side of me wants to know; did THEY ever get it?

And if so, was it a bad case?
Because I know those people too. And every damn one of them caught it at some point but NONE of them had a bad case. Therefore, to them, it was ALL blown way out of proportion.
One of my immune compromised friends said "I wish "X" would get a case bad enough to be on a vent for 5 days. Maybe THEN he'd admit its a problem"

[WarGamer]

35. SARS-CoV2 was NEVER traced back to ANY animal.

Scientists are saying that since SARS-CoV in 2003 came from a wet market, then CoV2 must be from a wet market.

That was all the evidence they had.

Oh and BTW the lab in Wuhan, the epicenter of COVID-19 just happened to have a lab studying SARS viruses.

Coincidence?

[WarGamer]

48. The declassified DNI report from 2021...

Said the Lab Leak or Zoonotic transmission theories could not be confirmed or denied.

C-19 was never found in any animal. Wuhan was the epicenter just happened to be home of the WIV and US Intel reported that late in 2019, several Chinese scientists working at the WIV in the SARS section became ill...

Don't forget, SARS was from 2003 and this lab had been working on Coronaviruses for many years. So of course they say that SARS-CoV was related to SARS-CoV2... but there's no EVIDENCE that COV2 naturally evolved from the 2003 strain.

But coincidentally... they were playing with SARS viruses at the WIV and performing Gain of Function research...

But all just a coincidence according to the CCP. And Trump spent the first 6 months of the pandemic applauding the Chinese for their help re: COVID.

[panader0]

13. The RWNJs that believe that Dr Fauci paid to leak it in order to reduce the population

also don't believe in the fact checking of Snopes. Anything that doesn't fit into their mind set is fake news.
As I have said before, the greatest victim of the trump era was truth.

[Midnight Writer]

14. The report itself indicated that it was "low confidence" intelligence.

That means raw intelligence that may have shaky sourcing, cannot be confirmed, or is contrary to other intelligence.

Very much like our Iraq WMD assessments.

[Zeitghost]

27. The zoonotic origin theory reports

We’re also low confidence. Low confidence is “more likely than not”.

[DENVERPOPS]

28. Not "our" Iraq WMD assessments

but Cheney and Rumsfeld's assessments. Both had serious ulterior motives for creating that Bullshit. Cheney-Oil, Rummy- the military industrial complex........

[hay rick]

16. A too-well-publicized nothing burger...

providing sustenance for the blame-Biden-on-China talking point.

[Kennah]

19. Even if it came from a lab leak, vaxing is still the recommendation to prevent illness

[womanofthehills]

20. So who is the mysterious person who writes Snopes?

So David Mikkelson & his wife know more than the FBI and Dept of Energy!!!!

David Mikkelson, the co-founder of the fact-checking website Snopes, has long presented himself as the arbiter of truth online, a bulwark in the fight against rumors and fake news. But he has been lying to the site's tens of millions of readers: A BuzzFeed News investigation has found that between 2015 and 2019, Mikkelson wrote and published dozens of articles containing material plagiarized from news outlets such as the Guardian and the LA Times. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/deansterlingjones/snopes-cofounder-plagiarism-mikkelson

[former9thward]

26. Snopes has no idea what the intelligence agencies know.

They have access to communications between other countries leaders and officials. But Snopes wants them to tell us all those things so they will be exposed. Who is Snopes allied with?

“ Until these agencies provide more details to possibly substantiate their findings, however, the publicly available, scientific evidence continues to support a natural origin for SARS-CoV-2.” Who are the public health scientists working for Snopes and what is the evidence?

[DENVERPOPS]

29. I always

read Snopes and Consumer Reports with caution..........

[Meowmee]

44. I have yet to see any evidence

It was a lab leak. Here is an article about likely origins.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abh0117

[WarGamer]

52. the declassified DNI report from 2021

Said neither Lab Leak or ZOONOTIC could be confirmed or denied.

Any article based on the WHO report in 2020-2021 is flawed as the authors were writing what the Chinese told them to write.

[Meowmee]

54. Disagree

Still 0 evidence of a leak to support that theory.

[Takket]

58. snopes is very reliable. people have looked to it for years.

the news that the owner is apparently a scumbag doesn't change the fact driven content on the site.