I worry that we're in for (another) long, tough fight over Trans Rights

[Hugh_Lebowski]

Reason I say this is well, it was long, tough fight involving millions of people (some of which died in the effort) to achieve a reasonable semblance of Equal Rights for gay people. And they/we are still not equal, lets be clear.

A lot of progress has been made, but Stonewall to Obergefell was decades, right? Many people around DU were around for most of it, and remember the history.

For one thing, just in terms of sheer numbers ... there's more gay people than trans people. But another difference is ... in that case we were fighting against 2 Biblical verses, one Old Testament, one New Testament, that seemed to condemn male homosexuality (none about women though it's interesting to note).

In the fight for Trans rights, however ... it's like we're up against the ENTIRE Bible. God created Man, then Woman from Adam's rib, and all that Bronze-Age f***ing bullshit.

The Bible really is predicated on the notion that are there are two sexes, created by The Lawd, spelled out in Genesis, and much of its text sets out ideas like 'these are each of the (2 and only 2) sex's roles in society, their rights, privileges, etc'.

It's one thing to accept people being gay, but accepting that 'gender' is actually not 'defined by God' ... that there are in a sense, women born in men's bodies, and women born in men's bodies ... that notion upsets their entire apple cart. An all powerful/knowing Gawd doesn't make MISTAKES with which bodies he puts his 'souls' into!

So, even more so with the fight for Trans rights (vs Gay rights) ... in their minds, this is an apocalyptic fight, for if not even a human's sex/gender is certain, damn near everything crumbles in their Biblical Stick-Boy Fantasy Land.

We're presently watching their lashing out as evolutionary biology (again) bucks up hard against their magical/superstitious view of the universe. It's easy to think it's just about 'hate' ... and maybe it totally is for some, but at a 30K foot level, I think it's more about the threat to their worldview represented by the idea that someone born with XY chromosomes ... has the 'soul' of an XX person. They cannot, and will not accept that idea.

Because it would imply, essentially ... the Bible is a lie, and God is not infallible/all-powerful.

So its probably not going to be easy is what I'm saying. But we should NOT give up by any stretch

[Hekate]

1. I think you are right, Hugh. I am so disheartened at the scope of the backlash...

…after this country had made so much progress on all fronts.

All I can say is — those of us on the side of human rights and gender equality have to stick together and support each other, or what we saw Trump do to all his opponents in 2015 will happen to us, i.e. they were picked off one by one.

More potently put by Benjamin Franklin at the time of the signing of the Declaration of Independence, and very apropos for this darkening era:

"We must all hang together, or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

[GreenWave]

2. Most likely this is where the GOP will pitch their 2024 battle.

They run these hate topics through cycles and add some simplistic bs group to fight them such as families against... parents against.... working folks against...

[Ms. Toad]

3. Yes, but not for the reason you suggest.

A significant part of the reason that we're in for a long fight is that not all of us are on the same side, the other side knows it, and sees an opportunity to explore it for political gain, just as they did same gender marriage.

The bible is just a tool in the fight, not the reason for it. Just as the folks who are deliberately using trans individuals as a political weapon to divide the left, in part because they know we don't have a united front, they are using the bible to motivate evangelicals to be more politically active - essentially as a get out the vote tool, and a grooming tool to get more to enter politics at the local school board level, the starting place for a substantial number of Republican politicians.

As for the "God doesn't make mistakes" nonsense, it is easily shot down as pure bunk. Body and chromosomes have never been as straightforward a match as that argument would require. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

It is simply an extremely cruel tool being used to promote a political agenda.

And, just as the bible is not as straightforward on homosexuality as advertised, there is also a lot of gender transgression which receives favorable treatment. If you get a chance, take a look at the work of a fiend of mine, Peterson Toscano: https://petersontoscano.com/portfolio/transfigurations/

[Hugh_Lebowski]

4. You make some good points as always ...

But let me ask you this ...

IF the Bible had said, and "And GOD created man, and He created Woman ... And sometimes, God deigns to imbue the Physical Body of a Man with the Soul of a Woman, and also the opposite. This is why we see around us Men who love other Men, and may be desirous to present themselves to the world as a Woman would. This is part of the Lord's mosaic of life, and He has a purpose in doing so" ... and then throughout the Bible generally these folks were made mention of in a positive way

... you don't think these fights for LGBTQ+ rights ... would've gone a HELL of a more smoothly? Perhaps never even needed to be fought?

I definitely do.

There still would've been some haters, but they've have lacked a UNIFYING justification, and we'd have much more easily defeated them.

Of course the Bible would never have said that when it was written because it contains 0 knowledge apart from what was known in that era. There's no 'scientific revelations' in it. And this idea would've been a revelation at that time.

Lastly, I think people are born conservative, similar to how people are born to love others of their own gender, or present to the world and be accepted as a gender separate from their chromosomes. A corollary to this is ... conservative demagogues exist because conservatives exist ... and they want to be demagogued. Not the other way around.

And they have a strong preference for leaders who talk magical mumbo-jumbo like Gods, Devils, Souls, Destinies, and Heaven and such.

And IMHO, that's because 'magic' is required for there to be life after death. Objectively, 'survival' is our most deeply embedded animal instinct, and it seems to me its SO powerful to them, they crave a magical means to 'live forever', and will follow those who tell them 'yeah there totally is!'.

[allegorical oracle]

10. Missed it, perhaps, but don't recall many of the pious Xtians rushing to shut down

cathedrals when courts were condemning predator priests for their decades of abusing choir boys.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

12. No, because their sense of belonging puts their religious tribe above all else besides themselves

and possibly their offspring ... and maybe their parents, spouse and siblings.

They are insular in their thinking ... I, Me, Mine, as George penned.

Their dedication to a magic-based organization which promises them they can live forever ... is greater than it is to OTHER people's children, for sure ... and in many cases, even their own.

Catholics didn't raise a huge stink cause that's 'their church', and it's the Pope's job to fix it, not theirs.

And evangelicals didn't because it's not THEIR kids, and besides Catholics believe in Gawd and Jeebus like we do.

And for both populations "it's probably not true, just the lies of the devil".

I mean of course the point you're making shows amazingly hypocritically thinking, but these people don't care about facts, critical thinking, logical consistency ... at least not when it comes to their spiritual beliefs.

Christians defend their institutions, holy writings, dogma as a group ... because without those things being 'real' and having imprimatur ... it means they're going to die someday, forever. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

In a fairly real sense, everything that discredits their religion ... is killing them forever ... in their minds.

[allegorical oracle]

14. Agree with your points, but hypocrisy seems to be the essence of religion. MINE is great; yours is

Satan's handiwork... now let's go find some poor village to burn.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

15. True, but atheism and science are the biggest 'threats', at least in the West (nt)

[Ms. Toad]

16. It would have been the same fight.

There is no such thing as "the" bible. What we refer to as the bible (or any of the holy books) is - at best - a collection of stories inspired by God. Aside from the Ten Commandments, I'm not aware of any claim that what we refer to as the bible was literally written by God. Anything for which God did not set her hand to stone is subject to contamination by the human being who was the scrivener - and most of these stories were not written anywhere near in time of their origin - they were written decades to hundreds of years after the fact, injecting more human contamination into the stories. And, finally, none of these were written in English. Translation adds more contamination. And there are a lot of other books which could have been included in the bible, but which humans chose to leave out.

Each time a human being intervenes in conveying God's word, they inject their own perspective. So all those references you are making aren't to the word of God - they are to the word of God as humans interpreted it based on the morals, customs, knowledge at the time (and since then as new versions are translated adn compiled).

In other words it isn't the word of God driving the story, it is humans conforming the word of God to their own needs. It is humans who wrote the creation story, colored by how they viewed the world.

And - as I suggested - when you go back to the closest texts to the origin, there are lots of stories of gender transgressions - many of which have been "straightened up" by people hearing the stories through their own biases. Go find some of Peterson Toscano's work. I'd suggest you start with Transgressions. If you can't get your hands on it online, or through your local library, there are pieces of it here. It is written with scrupulous integrity to the scriptures, but presented in a way that is intended to be inviting, entertaining, and accessible even to people who are not biblical scholars - and even to people who think they know what the bible says.

And while evangelical Christians have always been socially strident (e.g. showing up on the anniversary of Roe v. Wade), they were not very politically active until the early 2000s, when the right wing started using social issues evangelicals cared about (then, same gender marriage) to drive their involvement in elections and other politics. This is a dramatic change, and it is being driven by politicians, not by evangelical Christians. I'm sure you're aware of the admonition to live in the world but not be of the world. It is only recently that actively participating in politics was not viewed as being of the world.

Same gender marriage was used to drive evangelical Christians to the polls in 2004. Ohio's marriage laws were expressly written using gendered language. So even before any changes, a same gender couple could not be married. In case there was any doubt, it was made expressly clear in the appellate case denying my spouse's late 90s petition to adopt our daughter: She would be a fit parent, but Ohio expressly defines marriage as between a man and a woman. Despite this, Ohio passed a law declaring that same gender couples could not be married. So same gender marriage was doubly banned. BUT - Republicans were smart enough to recognize that making it a constitutional amendment (triple redundancy) would drive evangelical Christians - many of whom couldn't be bothered to vote - to the polls. AND - they recognized Democrats were not united on marriage and used this issue to divide Democrats.

They are using the lives of trans individuals in exactly the same way now. This is not driven by religion; religion (and very superficial readings of the Bible) are being used as tools to prop up extreme Right politicians. It is going to be a long cruel fight - because they have found a winning playbook and are very good at sticking to the script.

And, frankly, because we can't get our act together to give our unqualified support to the trans individuals in our midst. This is devastating to trans individuals - and it is taking a lot of my energy to bat down the arguments seeded by all-too-clever Republican politicians.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

17. You do know that religious people have been fighting for the laws to be conducive and amenable

to 'their religion' since the founding of the Country, and LOOOOONG before that in Europe and most of the rest of the world, right?

Surely you also know that the Scopes Monkey Trial in the 1925 happened because religious people fought to get a law on the books preventing the teaching of Evolution in schools (specifically, the Butler Act), right?

I'm surprised to hear someone as smart as I know you are ... telling me that 2004 marked some special delineation in the 'timeline' of Christian political interference. How about Galileo? Their fight against Germ Theory? Their fight against the earth actually being spherical, not flat. I mean, religious people fought back against the idea that 'the female ovum' was a real thing when it was finally discovered in the 1800's FFS ... because the Bible(s) essentially said 'the man provides the seed, and the woman's body is the field he's sown!'. The 'Moral Majority' and Anita Bryant were promoting laws against gay teachers in the 1970's, when I was a kid, and the basis was religion. There was a huge political fight over School Prayer in the 1960's and that's still freaking lingering.

Christians (and esp. Catholics) being 'political' has going been going on since Christianity existed. This is not even a remotely new development in the history of the world, or the Country.

I'm also surprised that you're telling probably the most strident atheist on this site, the one who continuously says there's no supernatural stuff that's real (i.e. no gods, devils, heavens, hells, afterlives, witches (with magic powers), voodoo, psychics, ghosts, spirits, souls, leprechauns ... NONE OF IT) ... that the Bible(s) are not, in fact, the True Word of God? Let me just say, I need ZERO convincing on that point

Leaving that bit aside, last three paragraphs, you make good points. It will DEFINITELY be harder if we don't unite. And you've schooled me a number of times on the right's propaganda and how it's made inroads even on our side.

But ultimately, the length of time these people fight us comes down to how deeply entrenched in Biblical Lore ... an idea is. That's why they STILL fight us on evolution, 130+ years later. It's so fundamental to what they think (what you and I think/know is immaterial) is core canon. Evolution undermines that God created Humans, and that's a huge deal to them. The more an idea undermines what they think or have been taught, the harder the fight will be.

Your thought, and my thought ... are not mutually exclusive

Thanks for the chat as always

[unblock]

5. I'm not aware of any biblical discussion of this, except by omission

Afaik, the Bible mentions food, but not pie. Is pie evil or should people who make or eat pie be persecuted?

All of creation is vastly more varied and complex than could be described in 788,280 words, or however many words are in someone's favorite version of the Bible.

Some creatures or things or variations or exceptions to the rule were bound to be left out, but that doesn't make them evil or whatever.

Now, if right-wingers hated *everything* that wasn't listed in the Bible, such as automobiles and computers and television and the internet, at least there would be sone consistency. But it's disingenuous to point to the Bible saying nothing about trans people to justify hating on them, while ignoring all the other omissions so they can enjoy technology and such.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

6. I'm not saying they're logically consistent, by ANY means. Hell no to that!

I agree with your argument, and I'd even use it.

But the Bible says 'man' and 'woman', and at the time the book was written, these were synonymous with your genitals and breasts and such. SO that is what they take this to literally mean.

It's surely not universal that every individual hater's main rationale is 'that's not what The Bible says', I don't mean that, but religion acts as a unifying force for them collectively nonetheless, prompts them to effective action because they work together as 'Team Bible' kinda shit.

As such, I'd lay odds that these horrible laws banning drag shows, banning books, banning inclusive teaching, banning gender affirming care, et cetera ... they are being drafted and passed by religious (at least in their own mind) people in vastly larger numbers than they are by agnostics and atheists.

I'd stipulate that it's in many ways, not *REALLY* about what the Bible says (or doesn't say). There's fear, there's hatred, there's fear of societal change, fear that accepting this it undermines their worldview generally.

But at the same time, many think doctors giving trans kids medications are interfering with "a power that should belong to (their) God".

There's also their incessant paranoia that giant liberal conspiracies are everywhere, and that ultimately what we seek is to undermine God ... and therefore, basically our's are the work of the Devil.

So while they 'object' on a bunch of levels from person to person ... this is something of a Holy War for them, for the reasons I specified in my earlier post.

The 'faithful' have scratched and clawed and fought liberal-minded people all along about this kinda stuff.

The world's arguments regarding a possibly Heliocentric Solar System are a good example. Galileo was branded a heretic, because of a few scriptures that imply the Earth is at the Universe's center.

The fact that the earth is round was heretical because the Bible says some ancient dude stood on top of mountain somewhere and saw ALL THE WORLD from there, so they fought that too.

They fought the Germ Theory, cuz sickness was supposed to an Act of God, probably because there's like a few lines somewhere in the Bible where God made so-and-so sick, and of course Jesus magically healed people, etc.

They also fought against the idea that there was an 'ovum' involved in procreation, which not discovered until the late 1800's. The Bible presents procreation as it does sowing fields. The women is the field, fertile or barren. The man provided 'the seed'. Although he needed a female partner, the male was considered the 'source' ... of life. Thus, religious people fought against that idea that there was, indeed, an 'ovum', i.e. a females genetic contribution to a couple's offspring.

That's just few, obviously there's evolution, acceptance of homosexuality, etc.

I'm not saying they are in any way right, that they aren't wholly hypocritical and illogical ... I'm just laying out why it could be tough fight.

The idea that there aren't only two sexes, and that God makes you one or the other, and puts the matching soul into the body? It undermines a LOT more than a couple scriptures about men not lying with men as they would a woman.

[unblock]

8. Agreed completely. "Team Bible" is a good way of putting it

There are competing ontologies: knowing through science and skeptical inquiry vs. knowing through authority.

The right wing is heavily steeped in knowing by authority, whether political or religious or both. This is notwithstanding that many individual republicans are perfectly capable of logical, scientific learning and analysis in their daily lives.

A great example was masks at the outset of Covid. At first, everyone immediately agreed masks were a good idea, because, duh. Masks have been known to help avoid spread of infectious diseases for decades, and it's even been in pop culture as such for decades (doctors in movies and tv, m*a*s*h for example)

Then Donnie and other right-wing leaders started saying we're gonna make this a freedom issue and I personally know a number of republicans who first heard this and had this oh shit deer in the headlight look on them well I guess we're going into battle without armor but within a few minutes they were entirely on board with the pro-virus movement.

Basically, team trump. Same mental process as team Bible. Donnie said it, church leader said it, *ucker Carlson said it, therefore they believe it 100%.


Oh, the Bible does mention frogs, which can change sex. But then, the Bible doesn't paint frogs in a very positive light....

[Hugh_Lebowski]

9. Just like with all those other stupid fights they picked thru history against science and logic

they will eventually be soundly defeated

Although it's 150 fucking years later and some STILL won't accept that they're wrong, and that evolution is the reason for the different species, including humans.

So why do they cling to this one still no matter HOW MUCH evidence proves it wrong? It's because it's so fundamental to their belief system that God created Humans.

But at some point, there will be a tipping point and these people will have to accept that their Holy Book is just some creative writing by Bronze-Age men, and in no way reliable or consisting of actual revelations beyond what was known at the time.

They don't want to though, because with that realization comes the inexorable conclusion ... one day you're going to die. Cease to be. And you won't one day be visiting Grandpa in paradise-like Heaven like you'd hoped.

So they fight this to the point of ridiculousness, esp. given the historical trend where their Bible-based views are ALWAYS wrong, and they lose the argument to logic and science EVERY TIME ... because they have to. They have to keep the dream of a magical eternal life ... real.

Trans people being a natural thing ... just yet another thing that undermines their belief system.

[Mister Ed]

7. I'd say we're in that fight right now.

Everybody had better have everybody's backs.

[Duncan Grant]

11. "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

Mark 12:28-34
New International Version
The Greatest Commandment

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] There is no commandment greater than these.”

32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Link

[Hugh_Lebowski]

13. To them Your Neighbor is likely interpreted as "someone you feel is LIKE you, a compatriot who lives

in the town with you, and also properly fears God, isn't gay, or trans or a swarthy Latino out to steal your job"

You see, we think we know what "neighbor" meant, 2000 years ago ... but religious people think it means something different. It's not like the definition is carved into stone, as it were.