What exactly is happening with the Jack Smith trial ?

[hydrolastic]

Hello. 60 yr old machinist here so I wasn't paying as much attention in civics class as I should have. Although I seem to know way more than the younger guys at work. When I was 10 or 12 the Watergate hearings were on at my grandmothers house constantly, seemed like a year or more. The defendants were questioned and cross examined. people went to jail. What I want to know is why we don't see these trials today and where is the reporting coming from are there members of the press in the courtroom? Is jack Smith just going to make recommendations for prosecution and the real hearing is later? The big question I want to know is Jack Smith capable of putting Trump and or members of congress in actual jail?

[Walleye]

1. I think right now it's at the grand jury stage, which is usually pretty secretive

Watergate was a joint congressional hearings senators and congressmen. Nixon’s men were actually tried later in court and sent to prison by a judge. I think I’m remembering correctly I do remember watching most of the hearings. This is different because Trump is now a private citizen. I think the special prosecutor was necessary to insulate the department of justice because stupid Trump is a candidate again

[Eyeball_Kid]

4. I suspect that other forces were at play as well.

Trump made sure that the DOJ was infiltrated by loyalists who have likely been slowing down regular DOJ business when it came to anything "Trump." Garland pulled a rabbit out of his hat by insulating the investigation from Trump loyalists in the main DOJ and the FBI. Smith was able to hand-pick who he wanted on his staff, making Trump loyalists irrelevant and disempowered.

[Ocelot II]

5. I have long suspected that there were some TFG holdovers

who were throwing sand in the gears. God only knows what kind of goat-fuck Garland found inside the DoJ.

[Ocelot II]

2. There has to be an indictment (a probable cause finding by a grand jury)

before there can be a trial. The Senate Watergate hearings you remember were investigations but not trials, since the Senate has no power to prosecute; the people who were questioned during those hearings were not "defendants," since at that point they hadn't been accused of crimes. A number of people involved in Watergate were prosecuted in separate proceedings unrelated to the Senate hearings, though it took a couple of years. Smith will present evidence to a grand jury, which will decide whether there is a sufficient basis for taking the matter to trial. If he thinks he can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that TFG committed specific crimes, he'll go forward.

[hydrolastic]

7. Good to know!

Ok, So then when he does "go forward " is there a big trial that sends multiple people (example) Loudermouth and TFG in jail or is it a separate trial for each defendant ?

[Ocelot II]

9. It depends.

Under normal circumstances there can be a joint trial when two or more defendants have been charged based on the same facts. They do not all need to have been charged with the same crime, although usually they are facing the same charge or some of the same charges. A joint trial often arises in cases involving conspiracy or sophisticated, organized criminal enterprises. Hypothetically, for example, all the fake electors could be tried together if they are charged with falsifying election certificates. TFG would almost certainly be tried separately, though, since his situation is unique.

[hydrolastic]

12. Ok another good to know !

So when's it is TFG's turn will it be televised or public at all ? Press in the courtroom ?

[Ocelot II]

13. Federal courts don't allow cameras/TV in their courtrooms.

Press will of course be allowed, but only sketch artists for visuals, and no audio recordings either. So whatever Jack Smith comes up with won't be televised unless there is some kind of waiver of those rules. Not sure what the rules are in GA and NY state.

[hydrolastic]

29. Almost there with what I want to know

You say "TFG would almost certainly be tried separately, though, since his situation is unique." Is it Jack Smith the judge of this trial? or is this done separately by another judge ?

[Ocelot II]

32. Jack Smith is the prosecutor, not the judge.

Sounds like some Law 101 is in order here: In a criminal trial, the prosecutor represents the people. It is his/her job to try to convince the jury that the defendant (the person on trial) is guilty of the crimes with which he is charged beyond a reasonable doubt. The defendant's lawyer's job is not to prove the defendant's innocence, since all defendants are presumed innocent. However, the lawyer will put on a defense against the prosecutor's claims. A defendant does not have to testify, and in most cases he shouldn't because that will open him to cross-examination by the prosecutor. The judge, who is neutral, does not decide whether the defendant is guilty or innocent; that's up to the jury. The judge calls balls and strikes - that is, makes decisions about legal issues, like the admissibility of evidence, rules on objections, and otherwise manages the trial's procedures.

If Trump actually is tried on the federal charges, the prosecutor could be Smith himself or someone or a team he designates. The judge will be whichever federal judge is assigned the case in the district where it is tried, probably the federal district of D.C. Trump's lawyer(s) will be whoever he hires to defend him. The jury will be selected randomly from the residents of the district.

[Eyeball_Kid]

3. IMO, Smith's job is to separate secessionists in Congress from the Speech and Debate clause.

After that, the fascists in Congress will be vulnerable to conspiracy charges at a minimum. From what is NOT being said about his investigations, and from what IS being said, it's reasonable to anticipate that Smith is going for the whole ball of wax. His mandate has width and depth, and he has free reign over the subject matter in his two assignments.

Smith has seen, first hand, the international forces behind the fascist movements both here and abroad. He won't be taking any of it lightly.

[emulatorloo]

6. Ocelot explains it well. He has multiple grand juries going. No press allowed at grand juries.

They are currently hearing testimony from a lot of people, including ones who had claimed ‘executive privilege’. The DOJ/Smith got the courts to overrule those exec privilege claims.

There are stories about those types of things in the news, as well as stories of who is testifying. He is apparently moving quickly on all the Trump cases. (Classified documents, J6, etc)

The current thing that is in the news is that he subpoenaed Mike Pence to testify to the J6 Grand Jury.

Pence is trying to wriggle out of it by claiming he is a member of the Senate and is protected by the “speech and debate clause” of the Semate mentioned in the post above. but I am confident courts will make him testify, his claim to be a member of the Senate is absurd.

Smith was appointed as a Special Prosecutor. So yes he can prosecute these criminals once the work of the Grand Juries are completed.

[Bobstandard]

8. Jack can only investigate and reccomend

When Jack Smith’s investigation is done he makes a recommendation to Attorney General Garland. Garland then gets to decide. If Jack Smith recommends that TFG or anybody else should be indicted, Garland can do what Barr did—nothing. Or he could indict lower level guys and say he did a good job. That’s probably how it will end. But pigs do fly occasionally so it’s just barely possible Garland will indict Trump. Just don’t hol your breath.

[hydrolastic]

16. This seems to conflict with what Ocelot is saying ?

Same as title

[emulatorloo]

19. I'm not sure Bob is keeping up with the news.

They are also under the false impression that Garland is the same as Bill Barr.

But they are very different.

Garland has integrity and believes in the rule of law which is one of the reasons Biden chose him.

Barr lacks integrity and that is why Trump chose him. Trump specifically picked Barr because he knew Barr would protect Trump personally rather than enforce the law.

If you get a chance, here’s a couple articles about Garland I mentioned to Bob:

Merrick Garland Is No Pushover
The more we learn, the more aggressive the attorney general’s approach looks.
By David A. Graham
March 3rd.

https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2023/03/merrick-garland-doj-trump/673285/

Here’s the history one:

https://web.archive.org/web/20221022211824/https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2022/10/merrick-garland-donald-trump-investigation-indictment/671683/

THE INEVITABLE INDICTMENT OF DONALD TRUMP

Merrick Garland hasn’t tipped his hand, but it’s clear to me that he will bring charges against the former president.
By Franklin Foer
Oct 11, 2022

[emulatorloo]

17. Garland isn't Barr. Here's two articles about Garland's approach, one from March 3

and an older one covering his career as a prosecutor.

Garland has a history of integrity. Barr has a history of corruption. There is no basis in fact for your suggestion that Garland will do what Barr did.

New one from March 3rd 2023 about what’s going on:

Merrick Garland Is No Pushover
The more we learn, the more aggressive the attorney general’s approach looks.
By David A. Graham
March 3rd.

https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2023/03/merrick-garland-doj-trump/673285/

Here’s the history one:

https://web.archive.org/web/20221022211824/https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2022/10/merrick-garland-donald-trump-investigation-indictment/671683/

THE INEVITABLE INDICTMENT OF DONALD TRUMP

Merrick Garland hasn’t tipped his hand, but it’s clear to me that he will bring charges against the former president.
By Franklin Foer
Oct 11, 2022

[Ocelot II]

26. I am confident that if Smith recommends prosecution Garland will approve it.

He wouldn't have appointed a bulldog like Smith otherwise.

[fightforfreedom]

10. In Georgia the special grand jury recommended over a dozen indictments.

When Smith is finished with his investigation I believe the grand juries will issue many more indictments than the special grand jury in Georgia did. It's going to shock a lot of people.

The Garland, Smith investigations are massive and a lot of people are going down. There is no way in hell an attempted overthrow of our country can go unanswered. The coup plotters are going to be prosecuted.

[ratchiweenie]

11. The Watergate hearings were public and various members of the administration

testified to their parts in the break-in and cover-up. The fact that they also testified that Nixon ordered those actions brought him down. In this case, the investigation is being conducted by a prosecutor in front of a grand jury (which is always secret). Hopefully, once they have gathered enough evidence, there will be indictments of those that committed crimes and there will be public trails which we will all get to watch.

[Fiendish Thingy]

15. The congressional Watergate hearings were public, but not the DOJ investigations

Two separate things that covered overlapping topics.

[Fiendish Thingy]

14. I think you mean investigations, as there are no trials yet.

It’s at the grand jury stage, where Smith is calling witnesses to testify. At some point he will seek indictments based on the evidence gathered, and then there will be trials.

We’re not supposed to know much of what is going on at this stage, until after indictments are issued.

[jalan48]

18. Does anyone think there will be a public trial of Trump during an election year

when he is a candidate for President? Who will do this? Garland? A narrowly divided Senate?

[emulatorloo]

20. Why wouldn't there be? At any rate, Smith is fast-tracking this.

[jalan48]

21. We'll find out if the political will to hold such a trial is there. Unlike Watergate, Republican's

aren't going to come forward agreeing with Democrats about Trump. It will be a political shit show setting a precedent many don't want.

[emulatorloo]

27. Republican politicians have no say in the matter.

If I recall, Garland set up Smith as an independent prosecutor partly because of MAGA noise. They can scream all they want, MAGA but politicians have no say.

[fightforfreedom]

22. If he is indicted there will be trials.

There are no laws saying trials can't happen during an election year. That is why many experts are saying indictments will happen sooner than later this year. Trump will try to delay the trials but that will only work for so long. If they indict soon there will be plenty of time to start the trials before the election. Of course many unexpected things can happen pre trials. No one can predict the future.

The sooner the indictments happen this year the better. It looks like Bragg and Willis are going to indict very soon.

[Ocelot II]

23. The DoJ's policy has been that they won't publicly *open* an investigation

within 60 days of an election. They're not going to shut down an ongoing or scheduled trial just because an election is coming up.

[fightforfreedom]

31. I agree.

[hydrolastic]

24. As I said I didn't pay attention in civics class

But my first reaction is that TFG should not get to use the fact that he is a candidate as a shield. Everything should continue regardless if it hurts his campaign. JMO

[jalan48]

25. I agree but that is the legal part. Whether the political will to do so is another thing.

[emulatorloo]

28. Again MAGA Republicans have no say in the matter. They can squawk all they want

and they will.

There is zero evidence that Smith cares about MAGA noise and propaganda. Given their track record, I do not believe Jack Smith and Garland care about the deranged rants of Jim Jordan and MTG.

[jalan48]

30. Political will would be required for such an important undertaking. Do we know it's there?

Does Garland want to set a precedent that can then be used against Democrats in future Presidential elections? It's not strictly a legal matter.

[emulatorloo]

33. Garland believes in the rule of law.

We’ll have to wait and see what happens.

[jalan48]

34. I agree. I thinkwe are all just trying to read the tea leaves.

[emulatorloo]

35. yes, it is really stressful wondering about how this is gonna all play out!