General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI thought they passed a law to stop Daylight Savings time! I just got a "notification" on Apple
that tomorrow starts Daylight Savings time. WTF?
Ocelot II
(115,783 posts)There are bills in Congress to make daylight saving permanent. If the current bills pass are signed by Biden, permanent daylight saving time would take effect on Nov. 5, 2023. This would allow the transportation industry time to adjust its advanced scheduling. This means that the last clock change would be the upcoming one.
BComplex
(8,058 posts)planning an October wedding around it.
mathematic
(1,439 posts)Standard time (what we're on for the rest of today) starts in November and the proposed bill is to get rid of standard time. Nobody's proposing a bill to get rid of daylight time so you can safely plan on an event's time in October.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,336 posts)I would have thought you've have checked better than "I vaguely remember some headline from last year" before going that far.
What "planning" is involved? I can't imagine very many guests would find a "daylight savings time" theme that fun.
Ms. Toad
(34,082 posts)Aside from counting down hours to the wedding there shouldn't be anything that changes. If the wedding is set for 4 PM, it will take place at 4 PM regardless of whether we have DST or not.
karynnj
(59,504 posts)Even then, it's no problem until they schedule times for the service and party. Whatever lighting, sunset etc they qwerty planning around might simply mean changing the "hour" to get the physical time they want.
Ms. Toad
(34,082 posts)I don't have daylight hours memorized.
If I was planning a wedding that required light at a certain time I would have googled sunset on the desired date for the desired location. Every time I've done a similar search, it takes into account whether the location is, or is not, on DST.
karynnj
(59,504 posts)Having helped a daughter with her plan for an October wedding, with an outdoor ceremony a few years ago in Vermont, I get their concern.
Ms. Toad
(34,082 posts)But whether the OP was correct in that assumption or not, any sundown predicting apps will still give her the correct local time for sundown (in other words, had the legislation passed it would have given a different clock time than had the legislation not passed, because the apps would have updated based on the law.)
Unless the OP had the times for sundown memorized without consulting an external source. And, frankly, for anything that critical - even if I believed I had it all memorized - I would have checked anything that critical against an external source.
karynnj
(59,504 posts)I was assuming -Incorrectly - that she was trying to fix a time not knowing which way the legislation would go. I misread the comments.
BComplex
(8,058 posts)dusk is. The extra hour is important, as dusk for DST is different for Standard time, and the last check was when standard time was going to be the new law. Arizona stays on Mountain time, while the rest of the country changes, but I thought we were going to all be like Arizona, and stay on our designated time zones (Eastern, Central, etc), and NOT change to DST. I thought that last Fall was the last time we were going to change our clocks.
It will change how the invitations have to be written.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,336 posts)The bill that got through the Senate in 2022 was for Daylight Savings Time to be permanent.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-senate-approves-bill-that-would-make-daylight-savings-time-permanent-2023-2022-03-15/
So this October would be on Daylight Savings Time whether or not that bill had proceeded. If that bill had become law, then this weekend would have had a clock change, and then there wouldn't be one next November.
Look on the bright side - you would have had to change the invitations anyway, because of your first mistake, about what the bill said. So not realising the bill hadn't become law hasn't affected you.
MichMan
(11,950 posts)If passed, the March 12 changing of the clocks would be the final such event we wouldnt fall back in November.
Ocelot II
(115,783 posts)Tree Lady
(11,480 posts)another bipartisan bill. What happened was senate approved it but congress couldn't agree on which one to make permanent. So they are trying again.
I think most people are tired of changing, I am!
BComplex
(8,058 posts)the internal clock adjustments that go along with it.
Blues Heron
(5,939 posts)its to take advantage of the earlier sunrise so we have more time off in the afternoon. That doesnt really make sense in the depths of winter, hence the change. It didnt just come out of nowhere to annoy people.
Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)Think about these people:
BComplex
(8,058 posts)Tree Lady
(11,480 posts)in my Prius I always have to look up how, I mean I never remember lol. So it takes me awhile every time.
csziggy
(34,136 posts)So now I will have to adjust my brain to not "correct" the time by subtracting an hour!
HUAJIAO
(2,395 posts)Tree Lady
(11,480 posts)are not that great and trying to change a hour of bedtime messes me up.
HUAJIAO
(2,395 posts)Blues Heron
(5,939 posts)Tree Lady
(11,480 posts)Effete Snob
(8,387 posts)The legislature in Arizona, which does not observe DST?
Indiana? Where they are in two time zones and the northwestern part includes a lot of commuters to Chicagoland?
The US? No.
Tree Lady
(11,480 posts)Hawaii will remain on permanent standard time so even if it passes we won't all be the same.
ratchiweenie
(7,754 posts)We can all use the extra sunshine.
PSPS
(13,606 posts)Daylight Time originated during the world wars and used to be called "war time." It became a permanent yearly feature in 1966.
Daylight Time is known to have negative health effects
Permanent Daylight Time was tried in the 70's but lasted only one or two years before they changed it back to what it is now because people got tired of their kids getting run over in the morning on the way to school. The same thing will happen if they try it again.
ratchiweenie
(7,754 posts)having that extra hour of sunlight hitting our collective retina has to be a good thing for the country. Of course I live in the north where we always welcome extra winter light. LOL.
Blues Heron
(5,939 posts)There is nothing more depressing than having to hustle out the door before dawn on a cold and windy winter morning. Thats why we only do it in Spring Fall and Summer. Winter has to be on Standard time or it really messes things up. Been there, done that, no thanks. It lasted less than a year the last time they tried it.
Happy Hoosier
(7,350 posts)It just changes what the clock says. Where I live, DST in December means sunrise at 9 AM. Ya know whats depressing? Going to work before sunrise.
moose65
(3,167 posts)We are already under Daylight Saving Time for 2/3 of the year anyway. Its more standard than Standard Time 😆
Happy Hoosier
(7,350 posts)If DST is permanent, the sun wont rise until after 9 AM here in December. No thank you!!!
HUAJIAO
(2,395 posts)moose65
(3,167 posts)The days get progressively longer until June 21, when they start getting shorter again. Of course, that would happen with Standard Time, too.
HUAJIAO
(2,395 posts)tanyev
(42,589 posts)but yes, that piper has to be paid no matter what the clocks say.
Jerry2144
(2,106 posts)A state, such as Arizona, can choose to stay year-round standard time. What is trying to make it's way through congress is the option to stay on permanent Daylight Saving Time. Much better since in the summer the sun rises too dang early on DST (04:30 here) and sets too early in the winter on standard time (16:30).
There really is no easy answer for good daylight since the Earth really is a sphere (ish) object traveling through space in an elliptical orbit while spinning around on a tilted axis. Perhaps we should split the difference and go on permanent 1/2 DST?
MaryMagdaline
(6,855 posts)area51
(11,916 posts)Do you really not like DST, or do you just not like changing the time twice a year?
Happy Hoosier
(7,350 posts)And I would HATE it in the winter . It would mean sunrise after 9AM where I live! I cant understand why anyone would want that.
Celerity
(43,461 posts)We do not switch for two more weeks, so are still on standard time, which also is shit for this time of the year as well.
Crazy early sunrise at around 5 am or so and yet still getting dark at 5 pm or so until we move forward.
It sucks.
It didnt go anywhere in Congress last year, but they have brought it back up this year. I would like to see permanent standard time and not daylight savings.
I think they tried DST for almost a year back in the 70s and ends up majority of people did not like it. So they changed it back to what we have now. Not sure why they did this.
Tree Lady
(11,480 posts)standard. Sun stays up too late in tye summer and I end up eating dinner way to late and it effects my sleep.
bucolic_frolic
(43,236 posts)tanyev
(42,589 posts)That would probably be an even more disruptive transition, though. Modern life is complicated.
Tetrachloride
(7,863 posts)PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,868 posts)in the 70s. It was awful. Kids going to school in full dark. Some of them were hit by cars while waiting for the bus.
Permanent standard time makes far more sense, and is in better tune with our natural circadian rhythm.
If we're actually going to have DST, the biggest problem is that it starts too early and lasts too long. Start in April, end in September.
moose65
(3,167 posts)I just looked up Minneapolis in January. On standard time, the sunrises at 7:51 during the first week of that month. If schools start at 8, there are a lot of kids going to school there in the dark!
It would make more sense to change the time that schools start!
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,868 posts)sunrise was significantly later during the winter, because of DST.
Although it's also true that most schools start too early, especially high schools.
Mariana
(14,858 posts)Of course, they could stop making the kids to go school so damned early in the morning.
Happy Hoosier
(7,350 posts)My daughter got on the his in the dark. I hated that.
FoxNewsSucks
(10,434 posts)Sunrise at 4-5 am is ridiculous, and it sucks to be dark before 5 pm.
The only objection people keep making is kids waiting for buses. Maybe they should do what my parents and others did - teach them how to behave around traffic, and how to watch out for cars.
HUAJIAO
(2,395 posts)FoxNewsSucks
(10,434 posts)HUAJIAO
(2,395 posts)Beats me !!!
Stargleamer
(1,990 posts)Ms. Toad
(34,082 posts)It is shifting the clocks, not whether we call the time 10 AM or 11 AM, that is harmful.
FloridaBlues
(4,008 posts)Of sun rotation with standard time and summer months.
Polybius
(15,462 posts)Only way to do that is with DST.
Late summer evenings are great.
One of the weird things about the Caribbean is that its warm, but the sun goes down just after 6, with a little variation through the year. It took me a while to realize what seemed off and it was having warm weather and early sunsets.
Polybius
(15,462 posts)8:30 sundown in June/July is good for my health.
Stargleamer
(1,990 posts)from the 2nd article, see link above:
"However, research has shown both heart attacks and fatal car accidents increase after the clock falls forward in the spring. Children also end up going to school in the morning while it is still dark with disastrous consequences.
When President Richard Nixon signed a permanent Daylight Saving Time into law in January 1974, it was a popular move. But by the end of the month Floridas governor had called for the laws repeal after eight schoolchildren were hit by cars in the dark. Schools across the country delayed start times until the sun came up."
also (https://www.npr.org/2022/03/19/1087712609/permanent-daylight-saving-time-could-have-health-downsides):
JOHNSON: So we all have body clocks, and they align to the sun. And studies have shown that even after switching to daylight saving time, our hormones stay with the sun. And so we end up living our social life by a clock time, when we go to work and school, but our body's clock is on that sun times still. And so that leads to at least about an hour of misalignment. But parts of the country, especially in the western parts of time zone, are misaligned by about 2 hours. And so that, again, affects things like our health. It affects how we sleep. There's more sleep deprivation and poor quality sleep when you're more misaligned. And that in itself has effects that last the whole time we're on daylight saving time.
SIMON: And how could we pay for that in terms of our health?
JOHNSON: So some of the research we have the best data on is increase in obesity. We also have a lot of good data now from multiple studies about cancer. And so some of these studies look at just the effect of where we are in the time zone and places in the country that are more aligned by an hour, similar to time change, have about a 12% increased risk in cancer. And certain types of cancer like liver cancer are even higher than that.
Polybius
(15,462 posts)I'll never support anything that gives me darkness at 7:30 in July.
Stargleamer
(1,990 posts)and not just of yourself. One's interests don't have to be set in stone.
I may have had an interest in eating grapes when the UFW was imploring us not to buy them, but I included my interest in them getting a decent contract with the growers as part of my interests too so I honored their boycotts. Just like I don't cross picket lines even if it is the faster way to get from point A to point B.
Polybius
(15,462 posts)And sundown at 7:30 in June drastically effects and inconveniences me. Hard pass.
Ms. Toad
(34,082 posts)also find people who start their day closer to noon - and don't go to sleep until well after midnight - are lazy, evil, etc. Just like people who are left-handed.
I'm not buying it.
I'm willing to read the studies - but I'm not going to just accept the work of a talking head who says there are studies. There is a lot of body-clock-related prejudice - and everytihng I've seen posted in the last couple of days (1) misrepresents what the documents referred to actually say (e.g. the document says changing is harmful v. an assertion that the document says DST is harmful) or (2) refers to studies which aren't disclosed and thus can't be reviewed to evaluate scientific integrity.
Stargleamer
(1,990 posts)as skepticism typically does.
However, this document for the J. of Biological Rhythms (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0748730419854197) , as others do, DOES say explicitly say that DST is harmful:
"The chronic effects of DST have not been studied directly, but we know that DST increases the time difference between the social clock and the body clock (Borisenkov et al., 2017). More and more studies show that time differences between the social clock and the body clock challenge our health (Koopman et al., 2017; Mota et al., 2017; Parsons et al., 2015; Roenneberg et al., 2012; Rutters et al., 2014; Wong et al., 2015), are associated with decreased life expectancy (Borisenkov, 2011), shorten sleep (Borisenkov et al., 2017; Wittmann et al., 2006), cause mental (Foster et al., 2013; Levandovski et al., 2011) and cognitive problems (Díaz-Morales and Escribano, 2015; Haraszti et al., 2014), and contribute to the many sleep disturbances in our societies that are estimated to cost approximately 2% of the gross domestic product (Hafner et al., 2017). If we established DST throughout the year, the chronic effects would become more severe not only because we have to go to work an hour earlier for an additional 5 months every year but also because body clocks are usually later in winter than in summer with reference to the sun clock (Kantermann et al., 2007). The combination of DST and winter would therefore make the differences between body clocks and the social clock even worse and would negatively affect our health even more."
Also from the J. of Clinical Sleep Medicine ( https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/full/10.5664/jcsm.8780 ) :
"DST is less well-aligned with intrinsic human circadian physiology, and it disrupts the natural seasonal adjustment of the human clock due to the effect of late-evening light on the circadian rhythm.(25) DST results in more darkness in the morning hours, and more light in the evening hours. Both early morning darkness and light in the evening have a similar effect on circadian phase, causing the endogenous rhythm to shift to later in the day. There is evidence that the body clock does not adjust to DST even after several months.(26) Permanent DST could therefore result in permanent phase delay, a condition that can also lead to a perpetual discrepancy between the innate biological clock and the extrinsic environmental clock, as well as chronic sleep loss due to early morning social demands that truncate the opportunity to sleep. The chronic misalignment between the timing of demands of work, school, or other obligations against the innate circadian rhythm is called social jet lag.(27) Studies show that social jet lag is associated with an increased risk of obesity,(28) metabolic syndrome,(29) cardiovascular disease,(30) and depression.(31) One study found that in the fall, during the shift from DST back to standard time, there was a reduction in the rate of cardiovascular events,7 suggesting that the risk of myocardial infarction may be elevated because of chronic effects of DST.(32) Social jet lag associated with DST may be worse in the western-most areas within a given time zone, where sunset occurs at a later clock time.(33) Adopting permanent DST also would undo the benefits of delaying start times for middle schools and high schools.(34)"
Ms. Toad
(34,082 posts)And the portion which focuses on DST v. ST (1) assumes everyone has the same biological clock and (2) focuses on the discrepancy between biological clock and enviromnental clock as the source of the concern.
While I agree that the difference between environmental clock and biological clock is detrimental to health (I've lived with it for more than half of my life), a single hour is not a significant discrepancy. My natural sleep cycle is from 2 AM (or later) to 10 AM (or later). The discrepancy between my biological clock and the environmental clock has been - for more than half of my life - has been on the order of 4-5 hours. Which is the point I was making. Legislated time and environmental conventions, not to mention moral judgments about the character of those of us who would not normaly wake in the early morning, assume that everyone's biological clock is biased toward rising early.
The second also focuses primarily on the difference between biological clock and environmental clock. (And, inherently, assumes everyone has the same biological clock.)
I've been living with the prejudice against having a minority biological clock all my life. The assumption, both explicit and implicit, is that someone whose clock works like mine is lazy. Despite the fact that I've rarely worked fewer than 60 hours a week, and more often worked 80, and as high as 100. And despite the fact that when I am forced to be awake at 6 AM I am nearly as functional as I am at midnight - unlike most of my early bird peers who can barely function after 9 PM. That prejudice, unfortunately, bleeds over into reseasrch like this. The difference between biological clocks and envioronmental clocks (regardless of where your own personal body clock is set) is entirely a social construct - and is largely based on prejudice against late risers. DST does make that difference worse, in my case about 20% worse. For folks on the other end of the biological clock spectrum, it makes it better.
The up side is that at least both of these meta-analyses focus on the fact that it is the social construct (an artificial discrepancy between how we have arranged our society's hours and when people are naturally awake) as the problem.
FloridaBlues
(4,008 posts)In 60 or 70s but decided not to keep daylight savings year round. Too dark in mornings for a lot of states. If memory recalls.
Buns_of_Fire
(17,187 posts)Response to Buns_of_Fire (Reply #46)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Polybius
(15,462 posts)The Senate voted last year to make Daylight Savings Time permanent. However, Nancy Pelosi never brought it up in the House, so now that it's a new Congress, they must start over.
Ace Rothstein
(3,177 posts)Hard pass on a 4:15am sunrise for 2 months every summer. I also like the 8:30pm sunsets.
Mariana
(14,858 posts)Where I live the kids go to school in the dark in the winter anyway.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,868 posts)depends entirely on how far from the equator you live. As well as where you are in your particular time zone. Having lived in various parts of this country, I've experienced lots of differences.
Personally, I'm okay with DST but the current system has it starting at least a month too early, and ending at least a month too late.
I would vastly prefer permanent standard time year round, not DST year round.
Silent3
(15,246 posts)You longitude, however, must be figured in for when the sun rises and sets (unless your using old-fashioned local mean solar time).
With timezones, one particular longitude will be the same as local mean solar time. The further east you are, the later the sun rises and sets. The further west you are, the earlier rise and set times will be.
I just happened to have moved from the eastern edge of Eastern Time (New Hampshire) to the western edge (Ohio) about seven months ago. Even when I was in NH, at odds with many around me, I preferred the idea of permanent Standard Time.
In Ohio, permanent Standard Time would be even better, and permanent DST would be awful.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,868 posts)sometimes on the western edge. These days I'm smack-dab in the middle of my time zone. Which is nice.
Meowmee
(5,164 posts)But they still did the change last spring and fall and now so maybe for next fall it will pass, I hope so.
Brother Buzz
(36,449 posts)It's like 6:17 PM on the west coast, and the DU timet stamp is already saying saying it's 7:17 pm, 8 hours before it officially changes on the west coast. What's up with that?
ecstatic
(32,720 posts)I was pissed, even though I think we gained an hour at that time.
LowerManhattanite
(2,390 posts)Despised it. Those morning school bus rides in the dark were just awful.
Have no problem with the spring / fall switches since. Its a couple of weeks of adjustment and there you are. Dig the summer late sun. 🤷🏾?♂️
Celerity
(43,461 posts)Especially when you live as far north as I do (Stockholm).
I HATE the 2 PM or so darkness that soon comes when we fall back to Standard time.