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highplainsdem

(49,045 posts)
Tue Mar 14, 2023, 02:44 PM Mar 2023

T Bone Burnett op-ed in WaPo on protecting human artistry in the AI era

It was cowritten by Jonathan Taplin, director emeritus at the USC Annenberg Innovation Lab. Burnett of course is an award-winning producer, guitarist and songwriter.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/03/14/artificial-intelligence-threatens-creative-artists/

-snip-

Big Tech companies are “training” generative AI models by stealing music, books, photographs, paintings and videos off the internet under the guise of copyright “fair use.”

-snip-

Only the biggest of Big Tech players will dominate generative AI, because it requires massive amounts of computing power. But copyright appears to be anything but a top priority for Google, Meta and Microsoft. So while human creators rationally explore and debate this issue, tech corporations are using their work to train the generative machines that ultimately may make the artists obsolete.

-snip-

Yet a nation’s cultural life is not a minor matter, and preserving artists’ rights is essential to ensuring their continued contribution. Any reasonable interpretation of existing copyright law ought to protect against abuses, but that doesn’t always happen. A case now before the Supreme Court involving the artist Andy Warhol’s unauthorized use of a photographer’s image of the musician Prince could dictate the direction copyright law will take in the coming years.

But another solution may be needed: new laws and regulations governing AI and safeguarding the human core of creative artistry.

-snip-


As for copyright not being a top priority for Big Tech... Just yesterday I posted a news story about Microsoft laying off an AI ethics and society team that had recommended last year that Microsoft's Bing Image Creator, which hasn't been widely released yet, should BLOCK the names of living artists from being used in prompts telling the AI what sort of image to produce.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100217724891

Their recommendation was ignored. And now that team has been laid off.

To be blunt: Plagiarism and theft of intellectual property are among the main purposes of AI like ChatGPT and DALL-E.

It's a feature, not a bug.

AI is being marketed as instant creativity to people who might have enough talent to express their own creativity IF they'd put the time and effort into it, but who would rather have AI produce something for them in almost no time, and with almost no effort on their part. Whether that's a story in the style of Stephen King, fantasy art mimicking Greg Rutkowski - see https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/09/16/1059598/this-artist-is-dominating-ai-generated-art-and-hes-not-happy-about-it/ - or music copying an artist's style and even his voice (see https://www.democraticunderground.com/103493633 and https://www.democraticunderground.com/103493882 ).

The people offering this AI aren't naive. They know exactly how tempting this is as bait. And they're hoping people hooked on becoming instantly "creative" by using this AI will become outspoken allies of the AI manufacturers in all the legal and regulatory battles ahead.

I understand the temptation. I was looking at some Midjourney AI creations on Twitter the other night, and caught myself wondering for a moment what it would be like to play with. There are some things I can do really well, but drawing and painting have never been among them, though I've bought art supplies occasionally over the years and sometimes envied relatives and friends who could make money from their art.

But I decided not to try Midjourney because even if I avoided the most obvious plagiarism and didn't include an artist's name in a prompt, it would still be theft, not creativity. It might copy some artist closely enough for the copy to be easily recognizable, but I don't know enough art to be likely to catch it. Even if it looked superficially original, it's just patching together pieces of stolen work.

It might offer the exact same AI creation to any number of other people around the world, and I wouldn't be able to find that out, either.

And because of the way generative AI works, I would not be able to recreate it because giving the exact same prompt could produce something quite different the next time.

It would not be mine in any way.

Even though these AI companies are dishonestly telling users that they can copyright "their creations" - which so far, thankfully, the Supreme Court has disagreed with.

But the companies marketing illusory creativity via AI are hoping to change that.

And they don't give a damn about any of the people whose work and creativity they've ripped off.

I wish the people who are tempted to be "creative" with AI would give some thought to how meaningless their AI creations are, and how much harm they're enabling.

And if they have any real appreciation of art, they should be doing everything they can to protect artists. A community they could join by their own efforts, real efforts, if they want to be real artists. The world can always use more.

We do not need fake art produced by AI exploiting humanity.
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T Bone Burnett op-ed in WaPo on protecting human artistry in the AI era (Original Post) highplainsdem Mar 2023 OP
"We do not need fake art produced by AI exploiting humanity. " Ferrets are Cool Mar 2023 #1
Absolutely! SheltieLover Mar 2023 #2
Hope you are doing well. Ferrets are Cool Mar 2023 #18
This should all be destroyed & outlawed! SheltieLover Mar 2023 #3
I support artists of course and adore creativity, but until some obvious plagiarism derived from AI Hugh_Lebowski Mar 2023 #4
Hard to say how enforceable it's been... hippywife Mar 2023 #7
Assuming this is really happening, I'd imagine the focus is much more on 'not live' music Hugh_Lebowski Mar 2023 #10
No, it's not focused more on "not live". hippywife Mar 2023 #11
Here's the thing though ... if you actually went to court, it's many, many times easier to prove Hugh_Lebowski Mar 2023 #13
Music is my passion and this is far from a new topic for me. hippywife Mar 2023 #15
What if I walk into open mike Saturday and perform With or Without You Hugh_Lebowski Mar 2023 #16
Then you're talking about a different scenario. hippywife Mar 2023 #17
Thank you for this information Alice Kramden Mar 2023 #21
YW. hippywife Mar 2023 #22
...K&R... spanone Mar 2023 #5
This message was self-deleted by its author spanone Mar 2023 #6
T-Bone Burnett borrows heavily from other artists as well tinrobot Mar 2023 #8
All musicians will tell you they borrow from other artists. hippywife Mar 2023 #12
Very well said :) (nt) Hugh_Lebowski Mar 2023 #14
Good point. AI art work, like human art work, is typically not a carbon copy but inspired andym Mar 2023 #23
No to AI art!!! LostOne4Ever Mar 2023 #9
I fully support your imagery. Ferrets are Cool Mar 2023 #19
K&R Alice Kramden Mar 2023 #20

Ferrets are Cool

(21,110 posts)
18. Hope you are doing well.
Tue Mar 14, 2023, 11:25 PM
Mar 2023

We are chugging along down here...waiting to see when the next trip to B'ham is.

 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
4. I support artists of course and adore creativity, but until some obvious plagiarism derived from AI
Tue Mar 14, 2023, 03:24 PM
Mar 2023

makes a ton of money for some corporation, nothing will be done.

Just like if a band plays "With or Without You" at some college bar, U2 probably probably isn't getting their fair share of the beers the band was payed ... sent over to Dublin. But if, I dunno, Coldplay puts out a major-label record that sells 1M copies with a cover of With Or Without You, U2 are probably coming calling for their cut.

For myself, I'll start worrying about this when AI-plagiarized stuff is making somebody some actual money. Kinda like the artists themselves do when the plagiarizers are ... other people

hippywife

(22,767 posts)
7. Hard to say how enforceable it's been...
Tue Mar 14, 2023, 03:38 PM
Mar 2023

but the club has to buy licensing for any music played in their establishment (whether live or not) with the exception of music from a radio or TV. It's been that way for several years now.
https://www.barbusinessowner.com/public/Music-Licensing-for-Bars-and-Restaurants.cfm


You may have heard of recent enforcement by ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC where they send their representatives around to bars and restaurants posing as customers and stay for up to several hours and make notes on what songs you have played in your establishment, either live or recorded.

They then check up on your music licensing to see if you are using a music service that already pays them licensing royalties, or if you are licensing the music direct from them.

Establishments that do not have an existing licensing agreement in place are billed at a minimum of $750 per song played. This often results in a demand for several thousand dollars to be paid or face a legal challenge. You do not want to be in the situation!
 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
10. Assuming this is really happening, I'd imagine the focus is much more on 'not live' music
Tue Mar 14, 2023, 04:04 PM
Mar 2023

Although technically both might be included in the underlying enforcement legislation.

They're trying to get establishments to sign up for Spotify, Sirius, etc, rather than play songs the owners own or have ripped from their personal CD's/record collections, etc in their establishments during day-to-day operations.

Until an AI-driven 'artist' starts making millions with songs done in obvious 'style' of some other major artist, nothing will be done about this phenomenon. Even then, it'll be very hard to prove. And most importantly, the 'AI' isn't going to be doing anything that humans with a flair for writing songs that are reminiscent of some particular other artist haven't been doing since the dawn of time. Think of the Monkees, then think of the Beatles. Monkees were never sued for sounding a lot like the Beatles in some songs, and there's a reason for that. Copying 'styles' is perfectly legal.

That fact that AI could do something similar ... is really not inherently different.

hippywife

(22,767 posts)
11. No, it's not focused more on "not live".
Tue Mar 14, 2023, 04:21 PM
Mar 2023

It's ALL music played in a club or restaurant or bar. Read the link I posted.

 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
13. Here's the thing though ... if you actually went to court, it's many, many times easier to prove
Tue Mar 14, 2023, 04:46 PM
Mar 2023

the owner was playing actual, original songs from artists, the recorded versions. And a lot easier to prove they knew they were violating copyrights when they did so.

It becomes a LOT murkier when it's live versions of songs by artists you let play in your club. Are they supposed to review every set list, and order the artists to strictly adhere to what they said they were going to play? What if they play the song, but with different lyrics, but it's the same chord progression and is 'reminiscent of', but not the same? What if they turn song lyrics into a rap? What if they sing the words to "The Sound of Silence" over a heavy metal chord progression of chords different from the original? That kinda stuff is not worth the legal hassle. Things get too hazy.

As you said, you don't know about actual enforcement. My bet is ... whoever is doing it that enforcement is only worried about copyrighted recordings being played without a license, they generally don't give a shit about covers played by bands in the establishments.

Again, my bet

hippywife

(22,767 posts)
15. Music is my passion and this is far from a new topic for me.
Tue Mar 14, 2023, 05:11 PM
Mar 2023

I've known several people who played in bar bands since the last copyright laws were passed, as well as radio DJs with live guests on their programs. When all this was going down, tertiary radio stations with an online presence had to start pay licensing for the music they played, as well as paying royalties to actors in the commercials they played.

From 2005:

https://americansongwriter.com/online-radio-stations-and-record-labels-finally-agree-on-royalty-rate/

That was only one aspect of what was happening - the other was what I mentioned and gave a link to above.

What I meant about enforcement, is I'm not sure how many agents there are or how often they get around to all the various establishments, not parsing song lyrics or chord progressions. And trust me when I say, every musician knows when they are breaking this law.


Bottom line on copyright: Is it yours? No? You don't get to use it unless you are licensed or it's within the public domain as defined by copyright law. It shouldn't take enforcement.

 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
16. What if I walk into open mike Saturday and perform With or Without You
Tue Mar 14, 2023, 05:25 PM
Mar 2023

in a slam-poetry style with no musical accompanying. My performance was unadvertised. It was the middle of the afternoon when the bar was always open. For nothing. Now, was it 'mine'? Arguably, I came up with the 'style' even if it's not my words.

Like you say, you don't know about enforcement, and neither do it. I bet nobody is going after the bar owner for my performance, even if an ASCAP/BMI agent was there that day.

If the bar owner plays With or Without You off the CD they bought in 1988 on the Bar PA system, then it's obvious.

Not sure why we're talking past one another here. I would bet ACTUAL enforcement ... is limited to the latter-type scenario.

If you know different, feel free to share your experience/knowledge ... I'm just guessing as I've said, and I always like to learn

hippywife

(22,767 posts)
17. Then you're talking about a different scenario.
Tue Mar 14, 2023, 05:58 PM
Mar 2023

The bar didn't hire you and you weren't paid. However, lyrics are still protected under copyright, regardless of your style, so if the copyright holder asks you to cease and desist under that scenario, they still have that right.

It is being enforced, and in this first example, I have never even heard of these songs or musicians:

https://lancasteronline.com/news/local/ascap-sues-jukebox-nightclub-for-repeated-copyright-infringement/article_0f46f61c-5f01-11ea-ab7e-eb96a35ce492.html

https://sf.eater.com/2023/2/21/23608845/neck-of-the-woods-copyright-infringement-inner-richmond

https://www.kristv.com/news/local-news/robstown-bar-sued-over-unlicensed-music

I'm not a big fan of the RIAA, ASCAP, BMI, etc., but I am highly supportive of the artists who should be compensated for use of their work. I've been an artist (tho not musically) of one sort or another for most of my life. Copyright is a very important topic for me and other creators.

Response to highplainsdem (Original post)

tinrobot

(10,926 posts)
8. T-Bone Burnett borrows heavily from other artists as well
Tue Mar 14, 2023, 04:00 PM
Mar 2023

His music is very derivative of old school rock, country, blues, and many others. He wears his influences on his sleeve.

Just like an AI engine, Burnett has consumed thousands upon thousands of hours of other people's music in his lifetime. That knowledge has informed his own musical style.

That's not a bad thing. It's also not new. All artists copy others until they develop their own style.

But some "artists" never develop their own style, they just copy others. That's not new, either. It's been an issue since art first existed. This is why protections like copyright law exist.

AI just amplifies both sides of that equation. Yes, it can copy others. But, in the right hands, it can also develop it's own styles.

So, I'm on the fence. I don't think it is necessarily the technology itself, but how human beings will use it. And that is not a new problem.

hippywife

(22,767 posts)
12. All musicians will tell you they borrow from other artists.
Tue Mar 14, 2023, 04:30 PM
Mar 2023

They always have. Woody Guthrie used to have a joke about it, which his son Arlo has also repeated on occasion. But copyright laws prevent wholesale copying which is why there have been very few copyright lawsuits between musicians in all of music history, and it seems like most of them have been fairly recent:

https://library.mi.edu/musiccopyright/currentcases

The laws regarding music copyrights changed long before Spotify, Sirius, etc were even much of a going thing at all.

andym

(5,445 posts)
23. Good point. AI art work, like human art work, is typically not a carbon copy but inspired
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 03:32 PM
Mar 2023

Last edited Sat Mar 18, 2023, 10:58 PM - Edit history (2)

But a derivation often mixing elements of others and random "inspiration."

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