Jonathan Chait defending Bethany Mandel

[tenderfoot]

What a hill to die on...

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[Celerity]

1. I do not see his words as defending her.

Anyway, my position is that Mandel has some really bad ideas that we should expose and argue against. Pretending she is a moron who can't even define the term is not correct or even ultimately effective. You can't refute ideas if you refuse to concede they exist!

[tenderfoot]

4. The problem with his comment is that she IS a moron.

Refute what?

[Celerity]

5. IMHO he means refute the falsity of the entire RW anti-woke construct, its inherent incoherency and

racist divisiveness.

[tenderfoot]

8. The RW definition/freakout about "woke" has been refuted all along.

What an ass Chait is for even going there.

[Celerity]

11. Refuted by us amongst like-minded people, yes, but it is necessary to take the battle to the tens

millions of RWers who are being scientifically programmed to use it as weapon, Not just a weapon in philosophical and verbal day-to-day battles for hearts and minds, but a weapon that is also being employed to pass and enforce actual laws grounded in the dross, such as what is going on in the fascist, DeSantisinian hellhole that Florida has devolved into.

[Ferrets are Cool]

14. The minds of THOSE people are not going to be changed. It is a word they will use derisively

no matter if they understand it's meaning OR lack thereof.

[Celerity]

17. Yes, but there must be pushback in the general public space. It is not conducive to a just society

to simple retreat to our insulated camps, preach to our choirs, and cede the vast public, open range battlegrounds of ideas to the RW.

[Ferrets are Cool]

24. I agree 100%

[allegorical oracle]

23. If Mandel wrote the book, then from whom and how did she come up with her definition? The

bit that impressed me was, "It seeks a radical redefinition of society in which equality of group result is the endpoint, enforced by an angry mob."

To me, that means the Declaration of Independence must be a woke document. To wit:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Followed by a revolution.

[maxsolomon]

2. Her definition is wrong.

It's a straw-man fallacy.

[hlthe2b]

3. One might also find it rather patronizing/condescending to "come to her rescue"

Is it because of her youth, inexperience, or gender, Jonathan? Because to say anything more than that he empathizes with her experience is just that. Condescending, patronizing, and self-ingratiating.

She was inexplicably unprepared. Bottom line.

[EarlG]

6. Yeah the problem here is

Anyway, Mandel is in fact able to provide a definition of the term "woke." Are progressives going to like this definition? No. I'd suggest arguing with her ideas instead of pretending she's a complete moron who doesn't know what the word means.

... her definition of the term "woke" means she's a complete moron who doesn't know what the word means.

The rest of her quote, after she totally blanked on what woke means:

"It is sort of the understanding that we need to totally re-imagine and re-do society in order to create hierarchies of oppression."

Edited to add: The point being that to the right-wing, "woke" is just the 2020s version of "liberal" -- it doesn't mean anything. It's just a sound that comes out of their mouths when they have a knee-jerk reaction to something. It's a signal word that can be used in any situation when they want their RW peers to understand that something is not RW-approved.

Here's just one example: What the hell is a “woke bank”?

[blm]

18. ✔️✔️

[Carlitos Brigante]

21. Easy, a "woke bank" is the type that will use your prefrred pronouns when

kicking you out of your house.

[tishaLA]

7. even when she can manage to define it, she makes "radical" do lots of heavy lifting

[Buns_of_Fire]

12. I've noticed that they like to toss "radical" around a lot.

The implication, of course, being that anyone who doesn't agree with their calm, rational approach is, obviously, some 60's, wild-eyed, molotov-cocktail-throwing anarchist commie pinko.

[Ferrets are Cool]

15. Well, IMO, nothing is more radical than a book banning, racist, misogynist....

fascist, nazi lover. I don't know any liberals who pass that test.

[Buns_of_Fire]

19. No argument here. Inadvertent projection again. nt

[bullimiami]

9. by starting her description with "radical belief system' she is instantly exposed as a partisan hack

[brush]

10. I call BS. Anyone using the word "woke" as a pejorative...

should be able to define it or they're just another DeSantis spewing the word over and over and over to define societal issues they disagreed with. And those issues usually include anything involving empathy for the rights of the less fortunate.

[Ferrets are Cool]

16. This!!!

[Midnight Writer]

13. I agree that she froze up on TV. But her written "definition" shows she doesn't know the answer.

It happens.

It would be interesting to ask 20-30 conservatives what "woke" means and see if any of them gave the same answer. My guess is you would get 20-30 different definitions.

[Carlitos Brigante]

20. Didn't she fucking write a whole chapter about this very thing? And shouldn't

Last edited Wed Mar 15, 2023, 06:57 PM - Edit history (1)

she have expected that to be one of the first questions she'd get asked? Seems kinda..... what's the word?...... "moronic". Yeah that's the one. Stop treating these people as if they're "good faith kindergartners", or some shit. These are supposed to be adults.

[keep_left]

22. Yes, that's exactly it.

She wasn't the least bit prepared for the most obvious question that would be asked.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100217728241#post25