Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

kentuck

(111,089 posts)
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:41 PM Mar 2023

Would this be a good time for Fani Willis to indict Trump?

Since Trump is totally pre-occupied with the NY DA and the Stormy Daniels case?

Could he juggle two indictments at once?

With all the evidence, and phone calls, in the Georgia election fraud case, would he still scream "Witch hunt!"?

It would be a heavy load for him to carry.

Then, just when he thought he had it all under control, Jack Smith could make his own indictment for the stolen documents and the obstruction of justice in hiding the documents from the Justice Department.

That should be enough on his plate to keep him busy for awhile.

16 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies

Tetrachloride

(7,839 posts)
1. he can afford the simultaneous lawyers.
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 05:56 PM
Mar 2023

the trials need not happen at the same time.

TFG isn’t religious so no need to worry about Labor Day or Presidents Day.

I hope every possible indictment is in the next 7 days.

kentuck

(111,089 posts)
3. It may be that they do not want to indict him for anything while he was the president?
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:02 PM
Mar 2023

It would be for his crimes before and after the election. Such as lying to the FBI about the documents and obstruction of Justice.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
2. they are in the process of presenting evidence to grand juries who will then make a decision
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:00 PM
Mar 2023

...that's when they will act to indict, or not.

It's really not likely that they're playing some Machiavellian game of upmanship over who should go first. Not if they're doing their jobs correctly.

I doubt they'll speed up or delay anything based on a case that could go on over a year.

kentuck

(111,089 posts)
7. That's why I think Fani Willis needs to act now.
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:16 PM
Mar 2023

Just in case this indictment is a dud, which is possible, in my opinion. How would that reflect on the other indictments if Trump and his lawyers tried to portray them all as a witch hunt?

Ocelot II

(115,683 posts)
6. The good time is when there is sufficient evidence to support the indictment
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:15 PM
Mar 2023

and eventually a conviction. Whatever else is going on is irrelevant.

kentuck

(111,089 posts)
8. When do you know you have sufficient evidence?
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:17 PM
Mar 2023

Do you think there is not sufficient evidence right now, for example, in the Mar-a-Lago documents case?

Ocelot II

(115,683 posts)
10. I'm not working on the case so I don't know. The investigators and prosecutors
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 06:23 PM
Mar 2023

who have gathered the evidence, interviewed the witnesses and have had the opportunity to evaluate all of it, including exculpatory evidence, are the only people who do know. I think it's important that they have subpoenaed the Mierda-Loco staff people who might have seen or had access to the documents in case TFG raises the defense that he didn't take the documents and didn't know they were among the items that were taken from the WH. Yes, it's a lame defense in light of everything else that happened, but it's absolutely essential to look all the evidence, both pro and con a potential prosecution. Since I don't know what they have, I can't say whether the evidence is sufficient or not. Only Smith's people know at this point.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
13. I think the aim is to exhaust the available evidence, not just orchestrate a prosecution
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 09:59 PM
Mar 2023

...most of the reason for that should be obvious.

Another consideration for running every bit of evidence gathered before the jurors may be the anticipation that the defense may use the material that may be revealed in discovery where the prosecution is obligated to produce all evidence they may use in the trial, including interrogatories, requests for production of documents, requests for admissions and depositions.

The value of the grand jury is really the answer here.

First, it's what the federal government relies on to make a determination of probable cause. Prosecutors run the juries much like they would an actual trial, albeit with more prosecutorial influence than defense, and they measure the value of their evidence against the reaction of the jurors.

In that effort, it's not actually a zero-sum enterprise. What prosecutors are aiming for is unanimity among jurors for an indictment. They don't need a unanimous decision from all members to indict, but it does need a supermajority of 2/3 or 3/4 agreement for an indictment (depending on the jurisdiction).

The more they're able to influence the grand jury, the better their chances are in regular court. That makes this not just a dilatory process, but more of a deliberative one, in that all of this anxiety about Smith or Garland moving forward should be leavened by the understanding that Smith and his prosecutors are engaged in a literal trial run of their prosecutions.

In that effort, as well, there needs to be a cohesiveness to prosecuting a large number of possible perps whose crimes intersect. You can't just piecemeal out those prosecutions, risking other defendants learning about their own prosecutions through the discovery efforts of the incestuous Trump legal team.

In the docs case, specifically, there are national security concerns that go beyond the FBI interest and blend into the DoJ and other intelligence agencies that oversee the protection of our nation's secrets. That's especially important where there is missing classified material, as well as issues of dissemination to unauthorized or foreign sources. I can't imagine that effort can be rushed into court without addressing those other issues.

Maybe something can be peeled off and isolated, without touching on the national security consequences. I thought it was encouraging to find that numerous staff had been interviewed since late last year, one reportedly in the past week or so.

What I believe is that these investigations are coming to a close and the GJs are going to be moving to a deliberative phase, if they're not already there. It may be that prosecutors want to reveal all of the indictments at once, and some are still being decided. It's not a high standard for jurors, much less than in a trial, so expect a lot of recommendations to indict.

The subpoenaing of Pence and lawyers, and the rest that made the news recently point to a wrapping up, instead of DOJ expecting those close Trump associates to spill anything more.

But they could also be in the process of squeezing recalcitrant witnesses and subjects with threats of asking the grand jury to indict them, much like has been reported in Manhattan. So, it's a process, not just a bunch of legal heads sitting in a room somewhere pondering over when to jump into court.

I can't know what stage they're actually in, but I believe the time taken involves much more than just making a decision whether or not to cut and run from the GJ and move to court. I personally don't know why anyone would want FBI, DOJ or anyone to leave available evidence on the floor, and not present that to jurors, so, due diligence should be the expectation, not just haste.


And this is important:

Prosecutors can proceed without a grand jury rec, but they would then need to convince a judge they had the probable evidence to proceed. A grand jury decision in hand eliminates that requirement.

kentuck

(111,089 posts)
14. But, is it possible to "exhaust the available evidence"?
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 10:30 PM
Mar 2023

Last edited Sat Mar 18, 2023, 11:13 PM - Edit history (1)

It seems when they have found the smoking gun, there is always more evidence to uncover, ad infinitum.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
15. that reads like an overly simplistic view of what they're engaged in
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 11:01 PM
Mar 2023

...I'm a bit exhausted trying to paint this picture for you, but I'll make one more try.

Try to imagine a process where there isn't this backbiting; where there isn't this assumption that someone at DOJ is dragging their heels. Try to imagine that DOJ knows the value of their evidence, knows the value of their witnesses, knows the value of those in an actual court proceeding, and knows all of this because they've measured and tested what they have in the form of evidence and testimony before 16 to 23 jurors.

Then try to imagine other considerations, besides the presentation of evidence, that might hold up indictments, such as the ones I took time to describe above, with lingering challenges and arguments of privilege possibly still to be fully adjudicated, like cell phones, emails, and other communications with the president and among other conspirators.

Watch the Proud Boys trial this week and look at how meticulously the government is presenting the evidence, of which, very little appears to be a 'smoking gun,' and recognize that it will be the totality of evidence which will likely serve to convince the ultimate jury of his peers, not necessarily a Perry Mason/Columbo moment.

kentuck

(111,089 posts)
16. I re-read your entire previous post and it was very informative...
Sat Mar 18, 2023, 11:20 PM
Mar 2023

...and I agree with your articulations.

Your comments on the documents were illuminating, some may still be missing, that the FBI and the DOJ are trying to resolve at this time? It was encouraging that they were questioning all the staff. They need to know more about the route and storage of the documents.

There are many things that can hold up an indictment, I would agree.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Would this be a good time...