When It's All Said And Done - We're Getting Our Hopes Up Again - And I Feel We'll Be Disappointed...

[global1]

Tr**p has eluded everything. He survived two impeachments. He's still walking around for inciting and insurrection. Why should anything that happens this week - be any different.

Just like Fitzmas and Comey Report - somehow he'll find a way to survive this indictment as well.

I feel that the events that will unwrap this week will be anti-climatic.

He achieved what he wanted to last week by saying he would turn himself in tomorrow.

He was the center of attention since he made that statement and all the MSM was focused on him.

He got the Repug Party to come to his support and even Pence (who seemingly came out against Tr**p the last week) is now saying that this all is 'politically motivated'.

So I'm not getting my hopes up. We've been disappointed many times before - why should this time be any different?

[claudette]

1. I agree

and think Garland is partly to blame for delaying justice

[Walleye]

2. He sure seems scared. Mug shot and fingerprints.He thinks he is king

[Pobeka]

3. This is TFG managing the narrative, again.

If he is indicted, we sure won't see him handcuffed (which was never going to happen with an indictment). But TFG is setting us up to expect that.

So, if the indictment happens, TFG will be whisked in a back-door, out of sight of cameras and the press, processed, and whisked out the back-door.

We'll see nothing, in the best case. So TFG gets to declare a "win", and thank his supporters.

In the worst case, there is no indictment, and TFG gets to declare a win.

[RobinA]

10. This Exactly

Trump has been announcing what he's going to do in order to affect events or their perception since forever.

[BlackSkimmer]

36. Yep. nt

[Laura PourMeADrink]

27. That's why I was thinking he won't be indicted in NY

tomorrow. He doesn't want to be around lowlife. I am thinking today. But probably wrong

Getting sick of watching boring news waiting for "BREAKING..."

[Silent3]

4. I think we might actually get an indictment, which is *something*, but yes...

...Trump will do everything possible to drag this out and slow it down, and the courts (even if they grumble a little, even if they know they're being taken for suckers) will grant him delay after delay.

And that's on top of the generous delays the courts will probably provide him of their own accord, like a trial date 6+ months after an indictment, a lengthy trial, and, if convicted, a sentencing hearing months after conviction.

Then Trump will appeal the verdict, and probably be allowed to remain free until all appeals are exhausted.

So maybe 2-3 years from now... real consequences???

A bunch of people on DU will, oddly enough, gladly accept this farce as necessary "due process" which is the only thing keeping vigilante justice and totalitarianism at bay.

[ancianita]

6. Something isn't nothing. Don't let your desire for the perfect be the enemy of the good.

And yes --

A bunch of people on DU will, oddly enough, gladly accept this farce as necessary "due process" which is the only thing keeping vigilante justice and totalitarianism at bay

. -- I'm among those.

It IS, in fact, "necessary due process" according to the 5th and 14th Amendments of the Constitution.


Make up your mind to criticize due process, or the people on DU who recognized its importance, but you can't fairly do both.

DU'ers are either for rule of law or they're not.

[Silent3]

26. I believe in due process. I don't believe in the farce...

…of endless delay tactics that slow justice to a crawl, nearly exclusively to the benefit of an elite.

Explain to me exactly what rights would be in peril if this took months, not years, and if someone clearly as dangerous as Trump were treated the same way we *legally* treat an apprehended serial killer, where it is NOT called a violation of due process to have a suspect jailed while awaiting trial.

Anyone who would try to do what Trump tried to do with his insurrection should fear that the law will land on them like a ton of bricks, not a slow flurry of paperwork. Without that, our democracy and system of justice are far more threatened by the likes of Trump and DeSantis than they are by adding some sensible efficiency and denying the privileged the kid gloves treatment they’ve come to expect.

[ancianita]

30. No, you don't. Because it requires that YOU and the federal courts LISTEN to the defense.

Both pre-trial, trial, and post-trial. That's constitutional rule of law reality.

The rest of us who are for rule of law owe you no more explanation about why you should respect due process under rule of law.

Yours is the DU Burger King argument -- having your justice burger your way; get it when you want, served up by people who see unfairness the way you do, disparage the head cook and kitchen crew, criticize the burger when you get it -- that holds no sway in courts of law or the DOJ.

You've already taken it to the DU court of opinion. Now take it to the state and federal prosecutors.

[betsuni]

32. +1

[Silent3]

35. It doesn't take 3-4 years to listen to the defense

That’s utterly absurd.

[inthewind21]

37. Clearly

You haven't ever had to deal with what the reality of due process through the judicial system involves. What YOU think is 'utterly absurd" is nothing more than an I want it right now, opinion, and NOT EVEN CLOSE to how the process actually works. It regularly takes years for cases to come to their conclusion. Depending on the case. Ever wonder why those convicted of murder and given a death sentence spend 10, 15, 20 or 25 years on death row?

It's astounding just how many citizens have no clue how their own government or judicial system works. Let alone what constitutional rights are granted.

[Silent3]

44. I'd love to see an hourly accounting of all the effort put in by individual people...

...where it possibly makes sense for this shit to be dragged out so long. There's a huge gulf between "I want it now!" and glacial, and what we've got is glacial, especially for the rich and powerful who benefit from delay, delay, delay.

[ancianita]

40. ...

[ForgedCrank]

43. I nearly

lost my account here for saying almost the exact same things.
Our system can be frustrating at times, but all these things are in place for a good reason. I've always been amazed at the complexity of even a simple case. The machine is large, and it moves very slowly in coordination with all it's other pieces, mostly via fax and snail-mail. The documentation alone just to file a simple motion takes a considerable amount of effort.
We are supposed to see it as in it is an acceptable cost for the guilty to escape justice on occasion in order to guarantee (at least the best that we can) that no innocent people are wrongly convicted.
Any lawyer worth his salt is going to leverage every single method he can in an effort to defend and protect his client, and I have to assume Trump will be no exception.
We just have to bite on a bullet and be patient, as frustrating as it may be at times.

[Silent3]

47. I do not share your faith that "all these things are in place for a good reason"

I'm more disgusted than "amazed at the complexity of even a simple case".

The documentation alone just to file a simple motion takes a considerable amount of effort.

Why should that be? Why should I believe that this complexity for handling a "simple motion" is all that stands between me and the breakdown of all that is fair and good in this world?

Why should I not believe that this is...

1) ...a system largely designed by lawyers that helps ensure lots of work for lawyers?
2) ...a system enforcing many laws, rules, regulations, and procedures established by the corrupt influence of money?
3) ...a system plagued by conscious and unconscious biases that benefit whiteness, maleness, wealth, and social status?

I request responses that recognize that, gosh, there might actually be some middle ground between what we have now and the oft-paraded straw man of INSTANT justice.

[ForgedCrank]

49. The process

is in place for record keeping, and full disclosure among all involved persons, and to maintain proper legal proceedings. It's there to keep everything above board and honest, and that takes a lot of time and effort. I'll REPEAT: yes, it can be frustrating, but it's like that for good reason. The justice system is for punishing guilty people, but only after they are proven guilty. The process described is how that is accomplished. One can't just walk into court and start making demands or claims. People need to be prepared, or it would take EVEN LONGER.
And requiring paperwork be filed accordingly is not going to cause some sort of breakdown of what is good or fair. It's there to make sure everyone understands one another, and so they can show up prepared, otherwise, a trial could take 10 years of rescheduling every time someone brings up a new point or motion.
Of course, it seems some would be Ok with just doing it the fastest way possible that achieved the outcome they want, but I don't wish to be subjected to that sort of legal system, that's how things are done in scary places where your defense means little or nothing at all.
We do have an issue with social classes though, and by that, I mean wealthy or not. Most often, the poor and middle class do not get the benefit of the best defense. Not always, but almost always. That is one of the few points that you made in which I can agree.

[brooklynite]

50. But why can't the Prosecution just say "we all know he's guilty" and rest their case?

[ForgedCrank]

52. What an

excellent idea.
Imagine how much faster we could get what we want done!

[Silent3]

53. So what you're saying is that, in the name of "fairness"...

…is that you’d happily let EVERYONE, not just the wealthy and privileged, drag things out for years with every delay tactic a clever lawyer can devise?

[ForgedCrank]

56. Why do people

always insist on putting words in my mouth? Did I say that anywhere?
The process is the process, the process exists for YOUR benefit as well as everyone else.
As is with anything else, some will abuse it. And normally, if a judge catches a whiff of shenanigans, the %# hammer will drop, they don't put up with BS that wastes their time unnecessarily. Go ask a lawyer if you don't believe me.
But again, the process is there to protect YOU.
Ever heard the term "filing charges"? I'm sure you have. That is one step that you seem to have issue with.
Otherwise, imagine sitting at home one day and the cops show up and arrest you. You ask why? They respond, "hell if I know".
then you get to sit in jail for 60 days waiting for your appearance. You and your lawyer walk in and find out you hear the prosecutor blurt out what you are accused of fir the first time, a crime you couldn't have possibly committed.
Do you think your lawyer is a walking legal dictionary and has ALL the case information needed to properly defend you at this moment? Or would you prefer to wait those dreaded days and weeks while he prepares a response, deposes people, scrutinizes evidence, reaches out to experts for advice, etc? Of course you want that time, it's absolutely required in the name of fairness.
If your lawyer starts filing extensions and rescheduling because he found an un-crossed letter "T" every week for 3 years, guess what the judge is gonna do to your lawyer?
I'll give ya a hint: your lawyer won't like it very much.
the case has to be documented, fair, and unimpeachable. THAT is why all that BS is required, not just for the fun on it.
95% of ones criminal defense happens in cluttered dens at home, and in between smoke breaks of clerks and assistants, etc. The court part is just where everyone gathers to argue the differences. All of it is absolutely necessary to keep you from being abused by a runaway system.

[Silent3]

57. I don't feel the slightest bit protected by a system that hasn't put Steve Bannon in prison yet

Plenty of lawyers (maybe not all, but a lot) said Bannon's refusal to respond to a Congressional subpoena was an "open and shut" case.

There might have been issues about executive privilege to consider, but even so, there was no (good faith) dispute that Bannon HAD TO SHOW UP to make his claim of executive privilege or any other excuse for not answering questions.

There simply is no excuse to be made for Bannon thumbing his nose at Congress and not showing up. None.

There's something desperately wrong with our legal system if it takes weeks for the DoJ to decide to indict on something like that (and never for Mark Meadows), the indictment leads to a trial date set MONTHS later, when finally convicted sentencing is put off for another four months, and then Bannon still evades being locked up while appeal after appeal plays out, which frankly can only lead to a reversal of his conviction by reaching corrupt Republican judges.

That's just one example.

I don't think "justice for all" and staving off a totalitarian nightmare of kangaroo courts really requires pretending everything is endlessly complicated, everything needs to be double and triple and quadruple checked (just for starters), as if adding two and two to get four is a fraught problem that needs careful review each and every separate occasion that it comes up.

Consider also how long it took for Congress to get Trump's taxes. The law was very plain that, if Congress made the request, the request SHALL be granted. No ifs, ands, or buts. Even if there need to be safegaurds against Congress abusing such power, if it takes nearly as long as half of a Presidential term to get results, Congressional oversight is a joke. The safegaurds should be punishing members of the House and Senate for abusing such privileges AFTER information is provided. Let THAT be what drags on for years, if anything must be so protracted, and make the penalties stiff enough that no one would want to face them just for the short-term advantage of getting information faster. In the meantime, oversight would happen like it should instead of being rendered useless by delay tactics.

Where you get anything about not filing charges before an arrest out of what I've said is a total mystery. Unless, again, as if seems when it comes to everyone so eager to defend our lethargic and often corrupt system, you simply can't resist turning "should be faster" into a "skipping completely" straw man.

[ForgedCrank]

59. "Where you get anything about not..."

"Where you get anything about not filing charges before an arrest out of what I've said is a total mystery. Unless, again, as if seems when it comes to everyone so eager to defend our lethargic and often corrupt system, you simply can't resist turning "should be faster" into a "skipping completely" straw man."


- You are railing against the system for being slow.
- You keep saying you don't understand why
- I tried to explain even the most simple first step to you and why all those things needed to be done
- Your response is to insult me for my efforts.

I don't think I can help you any further. Have a wonderful day.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

5. Your signature line

contradicts your post..........

[edisdead]

7. I am just waiting and seeing what happens

Maybe you are doing something different.

[Demsrule86]

9. Maybe you shouldn't pr-judge and surrender before the first thing in court is done...I don'

understand the woe is me type posts...never satisfied and never happy? Why? Of course, Trump will attempt to slow down the procedure that is part of criminal justice.

[edisdead]

14. am I doing that?

How so?

[Demsrule86]

19. My apologies...that was for a different poster.Mea Culpa

[edisdead]

45. Ah I see

Kind of thought that.

Cheers!

[secondwind]

48. I heartily agree with you!!!

[Demsrule86]

18. Maybe you shouldn't pr-judge and surrender before the first thing in court is done...I don'

understand the woe is me type posts...never satisfied and never happy? Why? Of course, Trump will attempt to slow down the procedure that is part of criminal justice.

[Act_of_Reparation]

54. You don't understand why humans experience human emotions?

Hm. Fascinating.

[CrispyQ]

8. Here's a similar thread posted yesterday you might be interested in reading.

Including my thoughts.

https://democraticunderground.com/100217741447

[Demsrule86]

12. Oh sure, doom and gloom. I just don't get that.

[CrispyQ]

15. Repubs getting away with shit since Nixon isn't doom & gloom, it's reality. -nt

[Demsrule86]

21. Nixon was a 1000 years ago and was pardoned by a Republican president...One has nothing to do

with the other...hell, I don't remember Nixon...

[BlackSkimmer]

38. Thank you. nt

[Cha]

58. Yeah, Nixon was pardoned by Ford

but the Fucker went down in Disgrace.. Resigned so we didn't have to see his ugly face in the WH.

Just because that happened doesn't mean the Domestic Terrorist isn't going to be indicted.

[Hortensis]

60. Yes. And definitely time for the nation to do a reset.

[GoodRaisin]

11. Lately I've been turning on cable "news" in the morning about

once a week to see if the adverbs have changed any. Nope. Might, maybe, possibly, could be, etc. etc., and then I shut it off for another week or so.

It’s always the same “news”.

[S/V Loner]

13. For Pete's sake.....

Let me enjoy the moment. LOL

[Demsrule86]

22. I know right? History is being made...some are never happy...they scream for prosecution and

when it is about to happen they still remain dissatisfied. I do not get that. I am going to trash all these sorts of threads.

[treestar]

16. how can that be? We have TFG's word

for it!

[debm55]

29. And his word is like dog poop.

[Kaleva]

17. Nobody thought the Senate would vote to convict.

[awesomerwb1]

20. I am not getting my hopes up

I'm like a Debbie Downer when talking to friends or people I know. A few of them are soooo excited.

[Demsrule86]

23. Well, I guess that is your choice. Life is hard enough without being constantly dispirited.

I just got out of the hospital after a valve replacement...46 days in the hospital. and I am thankful for every day...and I think Trump will get what's coming to him.

[awesomerwb1]

24. Glad to hear you're out of the hospital

I wish you a complete and full recovery. And i hope you're right about Dump. I'll keep being "neutral". It's better for my psyche.

[ancianita]

34. Glad you're back and feeling better!

Thanks for your post.

[debm55]

28. I agree. That POS will never pay for his crimes.

[W_HAMILTON]

31. And I'm guessing...

...if he gets indicted in multiple jurisdictions, convicted, and even eventually jailed, you -- don't say "we" -- will still be disappointed and then say, "well, it should have been longer and it should have happened a long time ago."

If you -- once again, you, not "we" -- are already setting yourself up to be disappointed, don't be surprised when you are inevitably disappointed.

[betsuni]

33. +1

[ForgedCrank]

39. It seems

to me that yes, people are setting their expectations well beyond what is realistic.
I personally think there is a decent chance of him being charged. But if he is actually convicted, we aren't going to see him doing time. My guess is that he'll pay fines and that'll be about the end of it.

[Pathwalker]

41. Some will be disappointed if he isn't hanged next week.

Some will be disappointed NO MATTER WHAT. So what?

[OneGrassRoot]

42. +1000. n/t

[Chakaconcarne]

46. These threads are begging for a self-fulfilling prophecy....

Why?

[IcyPeas]

51. Lawyers! lawyers get paid by the hour. they are in no rush.

[brettdale]

55. Here the thing

It must be happening in the next few days, why else would the police be putting
up Barriers and the media be camped out.

[efhmc]

61. Agreed and sadly said so at the Dem meeting this evening.