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Quixote1818

(28,968 posts)
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 09:27 PM Apr 2023

I used to respect Nome Chomsky's opinion but it seems he has missed the mark a lot lately

Or maybe he wasn't ever as smart as I thought he was?

He was against us supporting Ukraine which I think would have been a terrible idea and totally emboldened a very dangerous Russia / Putin. Snip: Though Chomsky denounced the Russian invasion of Ukraine, calling it a crime of aggression, it wouldn’t be far wrong to say Chomsky placed all of the blame for Russia’s attack on the U.S. government. The U.S., he said, crossed obvious “red lines” when it was clear that Russia would react violently.

When he is pressed on how we should negotiate with Russia he has no ideas.


Here was a Ukranian response to him: https://www.e-flux.com/notes/470005/open-letter-to-noam-chomsky-and-other-like-minded-intellectuals-on-the-russia-ukraine-war

Chomsky: A Stronger NATO Is the Last Thing We Need as Russia-Ukraine War Turns 1
It is becoming increasingly obvious that this is now a U.S./NATO-Russia war via Ukraine, Noam Chomsky argues.
https://truthout.org/articles/chomsky-a-stronger-nato-is-the-last-thing-we-need-as-russia-ukraine-war-turns-1/

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I used to respect Nome Chomsky's opinion but it seems he has missed the mark a lot lately (Original Post) Quixote1818 Apr 2023 OP
Well, he's 94. Maybe he needs to retire. nt littlemissmartypants Apr 2023 #1
That's what I was wondering. Maybe his cognitive ability is declining? nt Quixote1818 Apr 2023 #2
He was only 49 when he got the Cambodian Genocide spectacularly wrong. Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #8
Agreed. Thank you for the reminder for those who may not remember. emulatorloo Apr 2023 #19
Those unfamiliar with the Cambodian genocide Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #23
Great recommendation. emulatorloo Apr 2023 #33
Horrifying DET Apr 2023 #57
What if he's right? Xolodno Apr 2023 #3
that's a nice defense of 'difference of opinion' stopdiggin Apr 2023 #12
I don't believe this is black and white, good vs. evil, etc. Xolodno Apr 2023 #21
"We don't know, we don't know Putin's actual intentions" Phoenix61 Apr 2023 #55
Nope. We don't know his intentions. Xolodno Apr 2023 #58
So he said it but doesn't mean it. Got it. Phoenix61 Apr 2023 #61
Your links are current. Xolodno Apr 2023 #65
So no one knows Putin's intentions but you know it's Phoenix61 Apr 2023 #68
You never answered the question. Hermit-The-Prog Apr 2023 #67
Regarding echo chambers, your comment about the wnylib Apr 2023 #75
JFC someone on DU defending the invasion or Ukraine obamanut2012 Apr 2023 #82
I am speechless. edisdead Apr 2023 #84
"We kept arming Ukraine with more advanced weapons after 2014." LymphocyteLover May 2023 #99
What if he isn't? You don't address Chomsky's claims, you just assert DU is an "Echo Chamber." emulatorloo Apr 2023 #14
I responded to his post. Xolodno Apr 2023 #22
This message was self-deleted by its author emulatorloo Apr 2023 #27
This message was self-deleted by its author emulatorloo Apr 2023 #29
I appreciate your devils advocate stance and have carefully looked at his points and Quixote1818 Apr 2023 #15
And that's the heart of it. Xolodno Apr 2023 #28
I find it very hard to believe someone on DU is defending a self-proclaimed genocidal regime. Emrys Apr 2023 #85
Putin is a violent bully. And Chomsky can stuff his opinion totally blaming the US. electric_blue68 Apr 2023 #16
I identify as Russian... Xolodno Apr 2023 #30
So you believe Ukraine, Nato, and the US are mostly responsibile for lives lost? emulatorloo Apr 2023 #32
I think everyone is responsible for the lives lost. Xolodno Apr 2023 #36
I am not asking you to "take a side." I just am interested in your beliefs. Like diplomacy. emulatorloo Apr 2023 #37
Did Putin want a diplomatic solution? Xolodno Apr 2023 #42
Thank you, appreciate your reply. You have made some good points. emulatorloo Apr 2023 #44
Thanks, enjoyed the conversation. Xolodno Apr 2023 #49
No, they didn't lol obamanut2012 Apr 2023 #83
But the Russian never honored the Minsk agreements. Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #50
And I thought I made that point clearly. Xolodno Apr 2023 #53
With all due respect, I was impossible for Ukrainians to "honor" the minsk agreements Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #60
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. Xolodno Apr 2023 #62
And one doesn't salvage the current situation by engaging in conspiracy theories Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #69
At the risk of sounding reductionist, I'll add that Trump and other criminals played a role. yardwork Apr 2023 #80
True that. Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #81
That's a quite a family history! electric_blue68 Apr 2023 #47
Yeah, I'll probably never take a connecting flight through the Baltics. Xolodno Apr 2023 #52
Fucking War Criminal Putin and his War Criminal Cha Apr 2023 #39
DU is Not "an Echo Chamber".. you don't Cha Apr 2023 #41
Yes. Xolodno Apr 2023 #43
So? Cha Apr 2023 #45
You demonstrated my point.... Xolodno Apr 2023 #54
You among a few others on this thread show DU isn't an eco chamber. By being involved in this Quixote1818 Apr 2023 #92
No I didn't ..your point is not true. Cha Apr 2023 #93
Not so. There were posters treestar Apr 2023 #63
True. Xolodno Apr 2023 #66
"Eco chamber": used to insult DUers debunking misinformation/conspiracy theories about Democrats. betsuni Apr 2023 #64
Regarding Victoria Nunland as a policy hawk, wnylib Apr 2023 #73
You're calling a Biden advisor a neoconservative. Do you know what that means? betsuni Apr 2023 #74
Nuland's husband, Robert Kagan, co-founder of PNAC, is an arch necon. Maybe they are conflating Celerity Apr 2023 #90
I think Chomsky is being ill-used by agenda driven political operatives. lapucelle Apr 2023 #4
No person No philosophy is ever perfect LostOne4Ever Apr 2023 #5
I'm going with TheMagistrate's comment below about Chomsky... hunter Apr 2023 #25
Chomsky has long acted as an apologist for authoritarians. Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #6
+1 c-rational Apr 2023 #7
Exactly The Magistrate Apr 2023 #9
Any movement that was anti-West, Chomsky has supported. Always. Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #11
thank you. stopdiggin Apr 2023 #13
No. It is reactionary and anti-intellectual impulse. Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #18
Thank you for your thoughtful posts. emulatorloo Apr 2023 #20
Thank you for your kind words. Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #24
I like a lot H2O Man Apr 2023 #31
Pretty much Johonny Apr 2023 #51
+1 betsuni Apr 2023 #17
A little off topic but I was just in Cambodia. Phoenix61 Apr 2023 #56
A tour, where one saw the stacked up skulls, would not be easy to take. Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #70
Choeung Ek, 17 kilometres south of Phnom Penh. Went there in 2011, when I was 14, with my parents. Celerity Apr 2023 #91
I wonder if others have contemporaneous memories of what was known about the Cambodia genocide Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #10
This opinion piece essays to contradict your claims. It portrays what you're saying as xocetaceans Apr 2023 #34
No. The efforts to rehabilitate Chomsky and his writings on Cambodia have been persistent. Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #38
The given citations of original sources seem to be perfectly reasonable rebuttals of your claims. xocetaceans Apr 2023 #71
Not wrong and not "accusations" Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #72
Attest a source then. I have no dog in this fight, but the historical documentation does not support xocetaceans Apr 2023 #87
The "original source" is an opinion piece and there are neither "citations" lapucelle Apr 2023 #97
Oh dear. This Christopher Hitchens? lapucelle Apr 2023 #76
Your post does not even address the points that Hitchens made in his article regarding Chomsky. xocetaceans Apr 2023 #86
The Hitchen's thingy is nothing but an opinion piece. lapucelle Apr 2023 #89
Why keep refusing to address the point of contention? xocetaceans Apr 2023 #95
Sea below. lapucelle Apr 2023 #96
Ok, your Sir-Robin argument wins the day. n/t xocetaceans Apr 2023 #98
+100. Hitchins is a type, sort of academia's version of Fox -- Hortensis Apr 2023 #88
I was in college at about the same time as you. yardwork Apr 2023 #40
Thank you. This is what I believed was the common experience Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #46
If it hadn't been known, he wouldn't have had anything to express skepticism about. yardwork Apr 2023 #78
You make excellent points all around. Just A Box Of Rain Apr 2023 #79
I was in college and grad school at the time as well. lapucelle Apr 2023 #77
He has his views. Igel Apr 2023 #26
Same! PortTack Apr 2023 #35
I'm about as progressive/non-hawkish as they come Sky Jewels Apr 2023 #48
I used to like Chomsky... until I read his writings. Now I think he's just a gadfly. n/t CarlYasutomo Apr 2023 #59
I've always viewed him as I do most people ExWhoDoesntCare Apr 2023 #94
 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
8. He was only 49 when he got the Cambodian Genocide spectacularly wrong.
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 10:11 PM
Apr 2023

See my Post #6.

This is not a product of old age or declining cognitive abilities.

This is a very long-time pattern and one that is consistent with his entire career.

 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
23. Those unfamiliar with the Cambodian genocide
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 11:34 PM
Apr 2023

might want to watch the outstanding film, "The Killing Fields."

Although not made until 1984, the real-life central character Dith Pran (a stringer for the NY Times) was shipped off to a forced labor/death camp in 1975, where he was tortured and malnourished for four years.

He escaped death only by pretending to be an uneducated simple taxi driver. Had the Khmer Rouge known the truth, he'd have faced certain death. He barely survived in any case.

It is a great film.

People knew what was going on.

Xolodno

(6,401 posts)
3. What if he's right?
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 09:46 PM
Apr 2023

And furthermore, just because you disagree with him on this point, doesn't mean he deserves less respect.

Plus remember, one of Biden's top advisors is a foreign policy hawk, Victoria "fuck the EU" Nunland...a neo-conservative of the likes, but not as well known, John Bolton.

Just because you disagree with something, doesn't mean you are right and they are wrong. You could both be wrong and both right or something in between.

There is also a lot more involved in this war which isn't mentioned here on DU, but, it is an echo chamber. It's nice to be re-assured but I do venture out to other areas to have my views challenged, it keeps me grounded on reality. Some who display outrage and shock here on news items, well, I don't as I already saw it coming. We can fall into our own traps as well.

stopdiggin

(11,361 posts)
12. that's a nice defense of 'difference of opinion'
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 10:36 PM
Apr 2023

But now - do you have something to say about the 'position' that Mr. Chomsky is staking out here? Do you agree that the U.S. (and/or allies) are largely responsible for the the Russian invasion of Ukraine?

And do you see Biden's foreign policy (in this regard) as driven by hawkish - "f*ck the EU" - neo-con agenda?

Xolodno

(6,401 posts)
21. I don't believe this is black and white, good vs. evil, etc.
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 11:27 PM
Apr 2023

Putin launched the invasion. So yeah, I can take the absolutist view on this and be in the good graces of everyone here. But I know that usually isn't the entire case.

But was he provoked? The Minsk agreements were not implemented and no one really on either side really tried to enforce them. We kept arming Ukraine with more advanced weapons after 2014. Ukraine was not in a position to join NATO as it had territorial disputes. However, Zelensky did float the idea of having a national referendum on the territories occupied by Russia to let them have it and thus could pursue NATO membership. Which the USA stated Ukraine WILL one day join NATO. Then there is the natural gas fields they discovered in the Donbass and around Crimea and Nunland celebrating a contract with Chevron to develop them.

When it came to diplomacy, yes, Putin's demands were ridiculous, but those demands are always "the start" and then you go to more realistic issues. We just out right dismissed them and that was that.

Do we share some responsibility? I don't know, we don't know Putin's actual intentions. But outside of the Western Hegemony, they say we do. The court of world opinion is not on our side, despite our brow beating them in the UN to condemn the invasion (the fact that Russia pushed to have it anonymous doesn't bode well).

Is Biden's foreign policy hawkish? In my view, yes, and I know this won't be popular on DU, just calling it how I see it. We weaponized the USD, SWIFT and several other financial instruments. A neo-con wet dream that we will live to regret. Many nations are now calling upon creating a new currency and financial system that isn't beholden to the Western Hegemony, something John Maynard Keynes once advocated. There was an underlying trust that the financial system would not be weaponized (within reason) and we betrayed it. Worse, Russia has proven it's possible to survive it.

George H. W. Bush created a new world order ( 30 years ago) with a uni-polar superpower. More and more are coming around to the realization that its over (ironically started by his son with his invasion into Iraq). It's now going to be a multi polar world. When it happens, no one will probably recognize it like the fall of the Berlin Wall, it will just happen.

We need new thinking for this, Cold War jockeys don't belong in DC anymore.

Phoenix61

(17,019 posts)
55. "We don't know, we don't know Putin's actual intentions"
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 01:55 AM
Apr 2023

Seriously? He’s been extremely clear what his intentions are.
“For Vladimir Putin, the Soviet Union’s fall was “the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century.” Russian foreign policy has sought to re-impose control over former Soviet countries.”
You state the court of world opinion is not on our side? What are you basing that on?
You believe the Russian economy is doing well and the sanctions are not having any effect? That’s not what I’ve read in any source.

Xolodno

(6,401 posts)
58. Nope. We don't know his intentions.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 02:25 AM
Apr 2023

Yes he made the statement of the geo political tragedy. Does he want to re-introduce the USSR? Ah hell no and every economist will tell you that. Just as we complain red states here take more tax money, they had the same problem. And his invasion of Ukraine is very telling, he's obviously capitalizing on the most economic parts of it. Just the way it is.

World opinion? Yes, I read news items outside of the Western news outlets. Do you know that Macron and Tony Blair warned about the path we were on? Yeah, thought so.

Is the Russian economy doing well? No. I never made that statement. Just pointed out they are doing better than previously "predicted" by our media. But, they are projected to do better GDP wise than the UK and another country that is sanctioning them.

Of course, if you listen to some politicians, any day now, both Cuba and Iran will fall to our sanctions.

Sorry, but I have larger world view.

Phoenix61

(17,019 posts)
61. So he said it but doesn't mean it. Got it.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 03:02 AM
Apr 2023

I read lots of news article too. This is the most recent thing Tony Blair has said.
“Britain’s former Prime Minister Tony Blair is back in the headlines urging the West to get more deeply involved in the Russia-Ukraine war. Blair, who along with President George W. Bush, was one of the architects of the endless wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, writes in The Telegraph that Vladimir Putin “must be stopped” and that “We have no alternative but to stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes.””
https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2023/02/27/britains_tony_blair_finds_another_war_to_support_884052.html

And here’s Macron

“(Paris - March 8, 2023)

President Macron spoke on the telephone to Mr Joe Biden, President of the United States of America, on Tuesday 7 March 2023.

The two presidents talked about the situation in Ukraine. They reiterated their determination to provide Ukraine with the necessary military support for as long as necessary to thwart the Russian aggression. They likewise reaffirmed their shared goal of Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity being restored.”
https://franceintheus.org/spip.php?

The UK is not fairing well. In fact it’s fairing the worst of the developed nations and that’s the one you want to compare to Russia?



Xolodno

(6,401 posts)
65. Your links are current.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 03:46 AM
Apr 2023

I meant to post links from 3-5 years ago where both Macron and Blair stated we were on a bad trajectory. Can't find them and a search just gives their "current" positions. Not that it matters, they shift with the wind. My links were from New Zealand and India, both can't be found and I thought I saved them, oh well.

In many ways, I'm approaching this war from an Economics view. Re-creating the USSR is a fools errand and Putin knows this. It failed under the Tsar and it failed again under the USSR. Was it a disaster? Sure, dumbass Stalin and Krushev transferred Russian territories to the various republics to avoid succession, which was allowed under the Soviet Constitution. Lenin, was a major dumb ass. So now, a century later, we have problems.

Phoenix61

(17,019 posts)
68. So no one knows Putin's intentions but you know it's
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 04:33 AM
Apr 2023

not the reunification of the USSR. Based on what? You claim it’s a fool’s errand even if that were true you’re assuming Putin wouldn’t do something foolish. Again, based on what?
You were all about Blair and Macron but now they don’t count because “they shift with the wind.” Now, it’s New Zealand and India that counts, ok.
New Zealand has under 5 million people and is ranked 49 in world economies. It’s a beautiful country but it has limited resources, especially arable land. It does have sheep…lots and lots and lots of sheep.

India
“India has resisted pressure and continued with its strategy of not directly criticising Russia, which is India's largest supplier of arms. It has regularly abstained from voting on UN resolutions condemning the war in Ukraine, including a vote held at the UN General Assembly last week.
It has also defended its decision to increase its oil imports from Russia, saying it has to look after the needs of its population.
But it has talked about the importance of "the UN Charter, international law, and respect for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of states" in its past statements on Ukraine.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-64796718.amp
So what is it you think India said?

wnylib

(21,606 posts)
75. Regarding echo chambers, your comment about the
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 07:21 AM
Apr 2023

Minsk agreements is an echo of Putin's assertion that they were not effective as a justification for invading Ukraine in March, 2022.

The need for the Minsk agreements came out of Russia's support for the separatist fighting in the Donbas. So there is still the issue of Russian aggression at the heart of the current war, going back to 2014 and earlier.

I do agree that causes for wars are complex. They often combine values with material interests. That does not mean that the values are insignificant or false excuses for protecting material interests. Nor does it mean that all claims for values are valid.

Between Russia and Ukraine there are mutual interests in the resources of southeastern Ukraine. But the land IS within Ukraine's borders. That makes Russia the aggressor. Nobody was threatening Russia with invasion or attack. Certainly not Ukraine. Russia's claim to ownership of southern and eastern areas of Ukraine, especially Crimea, are based on Soviet dominance of Ukraine during the post WWII Cold War period. They are not valid today. But those are the stated claims for the territory - the ethnic Russian people who are settled there (echoes of Germans in the Polish Corridor, and Germans in Sudetenland). But if we accept that as a valid reason for claiming territory inside of another country, then China could own Chinatowns in several parts of the US. Ireland would own Boston. Spain would own Florida, California, and most of the American Southwest, etc.

Ukraine's interests are clearly protecting its borders, its sovereignty, and the material resources within its boundaries. Those are well accepted interests for a nation, combining values and material interests.

The US and other nations have material self interests that overlap with values. Russian interference in the governing systems of the US and of democracies in Europe and elsewhere have prompted us to unite over Ukraine on the principle of national sovereignty. We have a vested interest in defending democratic nations, including our own, by opposing nations that threaten the functioning of democracies. We also have material interests in Ukraine. But we pursue them through business and government negotiations, with respect for Ukraine's sovereignty. Russia pursues its material interests in Ukraine through invasion and war crimes.





LymphocyteLover

(5,654 posts)
99. "We kept arming Ukraine with more advanced weapons after 2014."
Mon May 1, 2023, 08:25 AM
May 2023

Gee, what happened in 2014???

Weird how you seem to keep making excuses for Russia terrorizing Ukraine.

emulatorloo

(44,182 posts)
14. What if he isn't? You don't address Chomsky's claims, you just assert DU is an "Echo Chamber."
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 11:01 PM
Apr 2023

Stopdiggin has some excellent questions for you to help articulate something more substantive than insinuating DU’ers aren't as enlightened as you because of your apparent insider knowledge of “a lot more involved in this war which isn't mentioned here on DU”.

Xolodno

(6,401 posts)
22. I responded to his post.
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 11:33 PM
Apr 2023

But it will probably not be satisfactory to your liking. At the end of the day, we still don't know and won't know for a long time.

Response to Xolodno (Reply #22)

Response to Xolodno (Reply #22)

Quixote1818

(28,968 posts)
15. I appreciate your devils advocate stance and have carefully looked at his points and
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 11:06 PM
Apr 2023

the opposing points. I simply think the Ukrainian response (which I link to above) makes much better points and shines a light on some real blind spots and possibly some disingenuous stances on Chomsky's part. Personally I believe we screwed up by not taking harder stances with Russia a long time ago and we are paying for it with this horrific invasion. Putin didn't think we would do anything because we hadn't in the past. Chomsky seems a bit naive to think Putin would have come to the bargaining table when we had rolled over and not done anything in the past. Playing nice with tyrants like Putin and Hitler hasn't ever worked out in the past and Chomsky is wrong that Russia was just going to roll over Ukraine. This isn't working out well for Putin so far. It's not over so there is still a lot for history to sort out and yes, I could be wrong but right now it's looking like Chomsky misfired here but we will see.

Xolodno

(6,401 posts)
28. And that's the heart of it.
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 11:40 PM
Apr 2023

We don't know. Is Putin like Hitler? I doubt that (he isn't gassing Jews in a mass genocide so the comparison is false), but that's the meme going around. Was he provoked? I don't know. Did he always had plans to invade Ukraine? Seems like it. But did he? Our previous involvements have muddied the waters. So I don't look at this conflict in tunnel vision.

Emrys

(7,257 posts)
85. I find it very hard to believe someone on DU is defending a self-proclaimed genocidal regime.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 10:05 AM
Apr 2023

Here's a Twitter feed you might benefit from taking a look at: https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews

Davis is widely respected, and compiles footage from Russian TV shows where the pundits compete with each other to be more blatantly xenophobic and murderous than each other. They include some of the most popular state-sponsored Russian current affairs shows, hosted by figures like propagandists Vladimir Solovyov and Olga Skabeeva, and featuring Russia Today's editor-in-chief Margarita Simonyan among other barking mad nihilistic would-be war criminals.

Might the risposte be "They're just TV shows"? Nothing appears about current affairs on Russian TV without at least the tacit approval of Putin's regime.

If you do bother to check out Davis's feed, you'll see that Tucker Carlson features heavily as he's a favourite Western voice among the Russian propagandists. I'd beware that your own justifications and defences of Russia's war in Ukraine don't stray too far into the territory Carlson's claimed as his own.

Here are just a few tastes of the coverage from recent days:




Julia Davis
@JuliaDavisNews

For those who may not have realized that gov't officials and Putin's pet propagandists actually meant what they've been saying on Russian state TV — for years! Their openly genocidal rhetoric matches their imperial mindset.





Carl Bildt
@carlbildt

A brutal honesty in this message from the 🇷🇺 Kremlin - 🇺🇦 should be erased from the map. A country that’s chairing the 🇺🇳 Security Council this month simply denies another country its right to exist. I think this is unique in the annals of international behavior in modern times.




TASS
@tassagency_en

Russian Security Council Deputy Chairman Dmitry Medvedev believes that no-one in the world needs Ukraine, therefore it will cease to exist, he said in his post on social media:
https://bit.ly/3GrctI2



The full version of Medvedev's post that's being discussed:




Dmitry Medvedev
@MedvedevRussiaE

WHY WILL UKRAINE DISAPPEAR? BECAUSE NOBODY NEEDS IT

1. Europe doesn’t need Ukraine. The forced support of the Nazi regime, by the American mentor’s order, has put Europeans into a financial and political inferno. All for the sake of bandera’s unterukraine, that even the snobby, insolent Polacks don’t take for a valid country, and time and again toss in the issue of its western areas anschluss. There’s a nice perspective ahead: to permanently put the nouveau-Ukrainian blood-sucking parasites on the decrepit EU’s arthritis-crippled neck. That’ll be the final fall of Europe, once majestic, but robbed off by degeneration.

2. The US doesn’t need Ukraine. True, the military and sanction campaigns are attempted for PR by political blabbermouths, who long ago attested to their impotence and imbecility. Average Americans don’t understand what “Ukraine” is, and where “it” is. Most of them won’t show this “power” on the map on the first take. Why won’t the US establishment focus on inflation and job issues, or emergencies in their home States, instead of a country 404, unbeknownst to them? Why does so much dough go across the ocean?

Sooner or later, they’ll ask for that. Then, storming of the Capitol in January 2021 would seem like scout games.

3. Africa and Latin America don’t need Ukraine. The hundreds of millions spent by US on pointless fights in Ukraine, could finance many development programmes for Latin American and African states.

Latin America is gringos’ backyard – that’s what they’ve been rubbing in for decades. Africa’s had its share of suffering from the genocide, and colonial dependence, imposed by former western slave traders. That’s why the people of African huts and Latin American favelas ask a very reasonable question: for their former suffering and present-day loyalty, why is somebody else rewarded – very, very far away?

4. Asia doesn’t need Ukraine. By Russia’s example, they see “colour” technologies at work to eradicate the largest competing powers. They understand what scenario the America-led collective West has for them if they disobey. “Help us to overcome Russia, and we’ll soon come to you”, the utterly brazen Western leaders tell them. Such gigantic countries as India, China, and other Asia-Pacific states face the big enough challenge of post-pandemic economic recovery, let aside the drugged clowns, with their whining for aid.

“We are not interested in you”, Asia tells their messengers, responding to the calls to support Ukraine and confine Russia. The country, geopolitically many times closer to Asian powers, the one that historically has proven itself a reliable strategic partner. Do Asian giants need such headache coming from former colonisers?

5. Russia doesn’t need Ukraine. A threadbare quilt, torn, shaggy, and greasy. The new Malorossiya of 1991 is made up of the artificially cut territories, many of which are indigenously Russian, separated by accident in the 20th century. Millions of our compatriots live there, harassed for years by the Nazi Kiev regime. It is them who we defend in our special military operation, relentlessly eradicating the enemy. We don’t need unterukraine. We need Big Great Russia.

6. Finally, its own citizens don’t need the Nazi-headed Ukraine. That’s why out of 45 million people there’re only some 20 million remaining. That’s why those who stayed want to leave for any place: the hated Poland, EU, NATO, to be America’s 51nd state. Joining the Antarctic with its pinguins will also be fine. As long as it’s quiet, and the food’s good. The ruling junta’s criminal ambitions forced Ukrainians to beg and roam around the countries and continents, searching for a better life. All that is for an obscure European perspective. Or rather, to let the harlequin in a khaki tricot and his band of thievish Nazi clowns to put the money stolen from the West into their offshore accounts. Would ordinary Ukrainians need that?

Nobody on this planet needs such a Ukraine. That’s why it will disappear


Maybe you missed Putin's addresses last year and earlier this one when he repeatedly set out his aim to return Russia's borders to some historical idyll where Russia is still a mighty empire. His actions and those of his armed forces indicate this is much more than a rhetorical stance.

The fact that it's deranged doesn't make it less sinister or indefensible.

electric_blue68

(14,933 posts)
16. Putin is a violent bully. And Chomsky can stuff his opinion totally blaming the US.
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 11:07 PM
Apr 2023

Slava Ukraini! 🌻🇺🇦🌻
Says this 2nd gen half Ukrainian-American.

Xolodno

(6,401 posts)
30. I identify as Russian...
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 11:49 PM
Apr 2023

...because my family was exiled from Imperial Russia under the Tsar. Turns out Peace Churches/Religions are not well liked. We've lost all contact to the churches in the Donbass.

Ethnically, I don't have a clue what part of Imperial Russia I actually belong to or part of. I descend from aristocracy and that's all I know. From my end, lives are being lost and I don't think the politics justify it. But that is what got us kicked out over a century ago.

emulatorloo

(44,182 posts)
32. So you believe Ukraine, Nato, and the US are mostly responsibile for lives lost?
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 11:54 PM
Apr 2023

or am I reading you wrong?

You are not providing much of substance of what your own beliefs are.

Xolodno

(6,401 posts)
36. I think everyone is responsible for the lives lost.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 12:06 AM
Apr 2023

War is the result of failed diplomacy. The soldiers in the trenches die while the politicians survive. War is a barbaric pastime we have yet to evolve from. A Ukranian soldier and Russian soldier could meet in Austria and have a good time, it's the governments that force them to kill each other.

If you are expecting me to take a side, I can't. From my view, it's brother killing brother. I'm the favorite nephew of an uncle, who is Ukranian under today's borders.

emulatorloo

(44,182 posts)
37. I am not asking you to "take a side." I just am interested in your beliefs. Like diplomacy.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 12:15 AM
Apr 2023

Do you believe Putin wants a diplomatic solution that gives The Ukraine sovereignty? If so what do you base that belief on?

Or do you believe the best diplomatic solution is for Ukraine to give up some of what it sees as its territory back to Russia?

Xolodno

(6,401 posts)
42. Did Putin want a diplomatic solution?
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 12:48 AM
Apr 2023

I think he did, he could have went further in 2014 and had the opportunity. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. But can the opposing view be wrong? Absolutely. There was a rush to war instead of diplomacy.

Russia agreed to the Minsk agreements that would give autonomy to the Donbas, which would result in absolutely no talk of NATO. Conflict avoided. And if Russia violated that, then we would know clearly what the intentions were. Now, we still don't know and I don't trust Biden's advisors on this, they have an agenda.

Side note; We should have honored our commitment to have Russia join NATO and this would never happened in the first place. But Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. decided "we needed an enemy".

Using the Cool Hand Luke voice; What we have here is a failure to communicate.

Right now, no one is talking, only arming. Territorial disputes should be solved at the table, not by soldiers. Hell, if Armenia was better equipped, they could go after lost lands that now reside in Turkey. We broke up Yugoslavia and set the standard. That needs to be fixed.

Xolodno

(6,401 posts)
49. Thanks, enjoyed the conversation.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 01:05 AM
Apr 2023

Let's hope a peaceful resolution to this comes soon. I probably have very distant relatives on both sides dying in this pointless war.

 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
50. But the Russian never honored the Minsk agreements.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 01:08 AM
Apr 2023

They actively kept up the fighting there using what were called "little green men."

Little green men referred to Russian soldiers who dressed in non-Russian branded uniforms. But no one was ever taken in that these were anything but Russian forces fighting with a pretense of "secrecy" (which didn't fool the Ukrainians or anyone else who paid attention).

I'm trying to imagine the shit-show NATO would be now if Russia under Putin was a member.

Look at the havoc Erdogan (and to a lesser degree Viktor Orbán of Hungary) have managed in NATO.

I'll grant the point that we muffed an opportunity to help shape Russia in a positive liberal direction, and too many Americans promoted the sale of state assets to kleptocrats, giving rise to the oligarchs. That was a massive geopolitical error.

Xolodno

(6,401 posts)
53. And I thought I made that point clearly.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 01:30 AM
Apr 2023

But, Ukraine didn't honor it either. There was no mechanism to enforce it and no one appeared willing to do so. This was a crisis baking in the oven for a long time. Again, we need new thinking.

Plus, a Russia under the NATO umbrella means they would have NOT cozied up to China. Security guaranteed, economic freedom, etc. Shoot, Putin would have probably retired. The wrong signals were sent to Moscow under GOP leadership or advisors. We can make mistakes such as Iran, Cuba, etc. How do we know we are not doing the same? Some times you do need to listen to the 'devil's advocate'.

 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
60. With all due respect, I was impossible for Ukrainians to "honor" the minsk agreements
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 02:52 AM
Apr 2023

when Russian soldiers have been actively been fighting to gain territory in the Dombas since 2014.

The scale was smaller than Putin's "special military exercise," but it never let up.

At some point it looks like the worst type of both-siderism.

I agree that we could have done more to help develop Russia positively, especially during the Yeltsin period. Unfortunately, we had people like Jeffrey Sachs who thought post-communist Russia would benefit from a so-called "shock therapy" conversion to capitalism.

Instead of an orderly transition that could have bolstered liberal democracy, Russia's resources were grabbed by what came to be known as the oligarchs. Klepto-capitalism.

Russia has never been politically developed enough to be a NATO member. It is possible that things could have gone differently, but that political and economic development would have need to occur first.

NATO membership alone would not have transformed Russia, and would have hamstrung the alliance if today's scenario followed, with a NATO ally warring on Ukraine.

Xolodno

(6,401 posts)
62. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 03:10 AM
Apr 2023

I believe Ukraine and Russia could have honored the Minsk Treaty. Problem is, without naming anyone, certain countries in the West didn't want it to happen.

And Russia should have been brought into NATO, I'm not going to dig it up, but that was Clinton's intention and even the UK thought at minimum they should have brought Russia as a co-member of sorts. Russia and NATO were holding joint military drills for awhile. The GOP side of our government fucked up and we are now dealing with the consequences.

And I can go on for a significant time how we should have not supported Yeltsin when he dissolved the Duma, gave our blessing to this non-descript Mayor of St. Petersburg to be a VP, etc. But it doesn't matter.

This is reality and we have to deal with it and try to figure out how we can salvage from past mistakes.

 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
69. And one doesn't salvage the current situation by engaging in conspiracy theories
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 04:49 AM
Apr 2023

about the motives of unnamed countries or fanciful alternative such as full NATO membership for Russia baring sweeping changes having happened as a pre-condition.

So yes, I disagree about that.

While agreeing that we could have done more to help Russia develop into a more liberal state.



yardwork

(61,703 posts)
80. At the risk of sounding reductionist, I'll add that Trump and other criminals played a role.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 09:24 AM
Apr 2023

Even if "we" had tried to take an enlightened, thoughtful approach, post-Wall Russia was a free for all of organized crime, money laundering, real estate speculation, oil speculation, etc. Putin was always there. Trump and NYC real estate were already in the mix.

Did a bunch of people who ought to have known better seize the chance to "prove" capitalism was better? Sure. But there were plenty of bad actors already in the mix.

electric_blue68

(14,933 posts)
47. That's a quite a family history!
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 12:56 AM
Apr 2023

And I certainly don't put blame on all the Russian people.
I know there's been brave protesting!

Xolodno

(6,401 posts)
52. Yeah, I'll probably never take a connecting flight through the Baltics.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 01:19 AM
Apr 2023

My previous employer is owned by a major international corporation. I called the help desk one day on an issue with my laptop, he had the eastern European accent, didn't think much of it, and asked my first and last name. Gave it to him and silence. I said "Hello?" and replied that my last name was his wife's maiden name (they live in Canada). She was from St. Petersburg, which makes sense as we got our nobility title from kicking in Lithuania's door and took the place.

As a Molokan (yes we still exist and in much larger numbers than you realize), I abhor such things. But it is part of my family history.

Cha

(297,655 posts)
39. Fucking War Criminal Putin and his War Criminal
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 12:42 AM
Apr 2023

Soldiers Kill civilians, women & Children and rape and plunder.. Imagine anyone defending that Horror. oh yeah, trump mtg and all the magats.

Slava Ukraini! 🌻🇺🇦🌻

We're helping Ukraine to fight for Ukraine's Democracy.. who know what would fall if Russia wins.



Quixote1818

(28,968 posts)
92. You among a few others on this thread show DU isn't an eco chamber. By being involved in this
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 04:36 PM
Apr 2023

thread you disprove your own point. There are arguments in just about every thread that gets traction. I appreciate you giving your point of view and disagreeing with most on here. That's the way it should be.

Xolodno

(6,401 posts)
66. True.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 03:52 AM
Apr 2023

But they were in the minority an often got drowned out. Shit, I even fell for it. I didn't think he had a chance...and then he won. I fell for the bullshit. Not going to allow myself that "luxury" again.

betsuni

(25,618 posts)
64. "Eco chamber": used to insult DUers debunking misinformation/conspiracy theories about Democrats.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 03:46 AM
Apr 2023

Rah-rah cheerleaders
Marching in lockstep
Paying fealty
Genuflecting
Hive mind
Cult
Paid shills of David Brock

Those were popular insults as well. Saying Trump might win was not misinformation or conspiracy theory. Wasn't until after the Comey letter her numbers went down, that last week.

Common was: X posts lies about Democrats, Y debunks, X screams WHY DO YOU THINK DEMOCRATS ARE PERFECT? ECO CHAMBER!

wnylib

(21,606 posts)
73. Regarding Victoria Nunland as a policy hawk,
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 06:27 AM
Apr 2023

are you saying that she alone drives US foreign policy? I'd think that there are a number of advisors, of varying views, that Biden consults.

Do you really venture into other areas in order to have your views challenged, or do you seek out other sources in order to confirm and support your views when you disagree with the predominant views here?

Celerity

(43,499 posts)
90. Nuland's husband, Robert Kagan, co-founder of PNAC, is an arch necon. Maybe they are conflating
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 01:09 PM
Apr 2023

the two of them. Kagan played a large role in Bush's illegal Iraq war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kagan

Robert Kagan (born September 26, 1958) is an American neoconservative scholar, critic of U.S. foreign policy, and a leading advocate of liberal interventionism. A co-founder of the neoconservative Project for the New American Century, he is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. Kagan has been a foreign policy adviser to U.S. Republican presidential candidates as well as Democratic administrations via the Foreign Affairs Policy Board. He writes a monthly column on world affairs for The Washington Post. During the 2016 U.S. presidential election campaign, Kagan left the Republican Party due to the party's nomination of Donald Trump and endorsed the Democratic candidate, Hillary Clinton, for president.

snip

In 1983, Kagan was foreign policy advisor to New York Republican Representative Jack Kemp. From 1984 to 1986, under the administration of Ronald Reagan, he was a speechwriter for Secretary of State George P. Shultz and a member of the United States Department of State Policy Planning Staff. From 1986 to 1988, he served in the State Department Bureau of Inter-American Affairs.

In 1997, Kagan co-founded the now-defunct neoconservative think tank Project for the New American Century with William Kristol. Through the work of the PNAC, from 1998, Kagan was an early and strong advocate of military action in Syria, Iran, Afghanistan as well as to "remove Mr. Hussein and his regime from power". After the 1998 bombing of Iraq was announced Kagan said "bombing Iraq isn't enough" and called on Clinton to send ground troops to Iraq.

In January 2002, Kagan and Kristol falsely claimed in a Weekly Standard article that Saddam Hussein was supporting the "existence of a terrorist training camp in Iraq, complete with a Boeing 707 for practicing hijackings, and filled with non-Iraqi radical Muslims". Kagan and Kristol further alleged that the September 11 hijacker Mohamed Atta met with an Iraqi intelligence official several months before the attacks. The allegations were later shown to be false.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

The Project for the New American Century (PNAC) was a neoconservative think tank based in Washington, D.C., that focused on United States foreign policy. It was established as a non-profit educational organization in 1997, and founded by William Kristol and Robert Kagan. PNAC's stated goal was "to promote American global leadership." The organization stated that "American leadership is good both for America and for the world," and sought to build support for "a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity."

Of the twenty-five people who signed PNAC's founding statement of principles, ten went on to serve in the administration of U.S. President George W. Bush, including Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz. Observers such as Irwin Stelzer and Dave Grondin have suggested that the PNAC played a key role in shaping the foreign policy of the Bush Administration, particularly in building support for the Iraq War.

snip

Shortly after the September 11 attacks, the PNAC sent a letter to President George W. Bush, specifically advocating regime change through "a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq." The letter suggested that "any strategy aiming at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq," even if no evidence surfaced linking Iraq to the September 11 attacks. The letter warned that allowing Hussein to remain in power would be "an early and perhaps decisive surrender in the war on international terrorism." From 2001 through the invasion of Iraq, the PNAC and many of its members voiced active support for military action against Iraq, and asserted leaving Saddam Hussein in power would be "surrender to terrorism."

Some have regarded the PNAC's January 16, 1998, letter to President Clinton urging "the removal of Saddam Hussein's regime from power," and the involvement of multiple PNAC members in the Bush Administration as evidence that the PNAC had a significant influence on the Bush Administration's decision to invade Iraq, or even argued that the invasion was a foregone conclusion. Writing in Der Spiegel in 2003, for example, Jochen Bölsche specifically referred to PNAC when he claimed that "ultra-rightwing US think-tanks" had been "drawing up plans for an era of American global domination, for the emasculation of the UN, and an aggressive war against Iraq" in "broad daylight" since 1998. Similarly, BBC journalist Paul Reynolds portrayed PNAC's activities and goals as key to understanding the foreign policy of the George W. Bush administration after September 11, 2001, suggesting that Bush's "dominant" foreign policy was at least partly inspired by the PNAC's ideas.



Bush's Master Plan: The war that came out of the think tank

It was the complete opposite of a conspiracy: as early as 1998, ultra-right US think tanks were publicly forging plans for an era of American world domination, for the disempowerment of the UN and for a war of aggression against Iraq. For a long time they were not taken seriously. Meanwhile, the hawks in the Bush administration are calling the shots.

By Jochen Bolsche

03/04/2003, 1:45 p.m

https://www-spiegel-de.translate.goog/politik/ausland/bushs-masterplan-der-krieg-der-aus-dem-think-tank-kam-a-238643.html?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp



German commentators and correspondents have been confused for days. Washington is juggling so quickly with changing justifications for the intended storming of Baghdad "that it can make the outside world dizzy," judges the "Süddeutsche Zeitung". And the "Nürnberger Nachrichten" reports on a "riddle guessing" in the USA, where President spokesman Ari Fleischer publicly declared at the end of last week that a war in Iraq can only be avoided if Saddam not only disarms but also resigns - a condition which is not covered by any of the 18 UN resolutions passed so far. Astonished, the paper asked whether Bush spokesman Fleischer had "performed what is probably the most momentous Freudian slip of his career - or whether the President had expressly authorized his statement."

"It's not a war on Saddam's microbes"

One way or another: Bush critics all over the world are convinced that the desert war is really intended to replace Saddam, whether the dictator has weapons of mass destruction or not. "It's not a war against Saddam's microbes," writes the Hanover-born Israeli journalist and peace fighter Uri Avnery, "it's quite simply a war for world domination, economically, politically, militarily and culturally." Concepts for such a policy do indeed exist. They were already being developed in the 1990s in ultra-right "think tanks" - think tanks in which cold warriors from the orbit of secret services and revivalist churches, from armaments and oil companies, forged spooky plans for a new world order. In the visions of the hawks, international law is replaced by the law of the strongest. Of course, the only remaining superpower should always be the strongest.

World Power Visions on the Internet

For this purpose, the USA would have to be in a position to permanently control the raw material reserves of the planet and to get rid of every possible competitor and keep them down - with all means of diplomatic and journalistic, economic and military power, if necessary also by preventive war. Whatever was concocted in the think tanks in the 1990s, from the disempowerment of the UN to a series of future wars of subjugation - it was the complete opposite of a conspiracy: Almost all of these visions of world power have been published, some are accessible on the Internet. For a long time, however, the elaborate works were dismissed as pipe dreams, written by intellectual outsiders, arch-conservative relics from the Reagan era, sidelined Cold Warriors who, financially supported by lobby organizations, spent the winter politically in some study room while Bill Clinton and his deputy were in Washington Al Gore ruled. At that time, a more internationalistic spirit prevailed in the White House: There was talk of "partnerships for the universalization of human rights" and of fair "multilateralism" in relations with allies; On the agenda were treaties on climate protection and armaments limitation, on banning landmines or on the establishment of an international judiciary.

Saddam's overthrow was planned as early as 1998

In this liberal climate, what was postulated by a "Project for The New American Century" (PNAC) founded in 1997, which, according to its statute, fights for "America's global leadership", went almost unnoticed. Five years ago - on January 26, 1998 - the project group called on the then US President to overthrow Saddam and to radically reverse his dealings with the UN in a letter to "Mr. William J. Clinton". As long as it is not clear whether Saddam has weapons of mass destruction, there is a risk for the USA, Israel and the moderate Arab states in the region as well as for a "significant part of the world's oil reserves". Literally it says already in the ninety-eight paper: "That means being ready to take military action in the short term, since diplomacy has clearly failed. In the long term, it means removing Saddam Hussein and his regime from power... We believe that the United States, under the already existing UN resolutions have the right to take the necessary steps, including military ones, to secure our vital interests in the Gulf. In no case can American policy be allowed to continue to be paralyzed by the UN Security Council's misguided insistence on unanimity."

snip

lapucelle

(18,319 posts)
4. I think Chomsky is being ill-used by agenda driven political operatives.
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 09:47 PM
Apr 2023

It's so sad to see him diminished by these folks.

LostOne4Ever

(9,290 posts)
5. No person No philosophy is ever perfect
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 09:52 PM
Apr 2023

Chomsky may be brilliant but he is human, and even the smartest humans can be wrong. Einstein was wrong on a steady state universe and I believe Noam is wrong here.

We all have to decide these things on imperfect information and must trust ourselves to even question our heroes.

hunter

(38,326 posts)
25. I'm going with TheMagistrate's comment below about Chomsky...
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 11:36 PM
Apr 2023

... and still amuse myself occasionally pursuing steady state models of the universe.

I don't consider Chomsky any kind of hero. It's quite possible I have no heroes.

Humans always seem to be seeking out Creation Myths, be it the physics of the unimaginably huge universe, most of which we can't see, or the tiny histories we create for ourselves on this tiny insignificant speck of dust floating in space. The "Big Bang" is a creation myth same as any other, myths we often attribute to gods, just as we attribute our histories to heroes.

 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
6. Chomsky has long acted as an apologist for authoritarians.
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 09:54 PM
Apr 2023

Mainly authoritarians of the left, but in the case of Putin's invasion of Ukraine the OP is fairly accurate:

Though Chomsky denounced the Russian invasion of Ukraine, calling it a crime of aggression, it wouldn’t be far wrong to say Chomsky placed all of the blame for Russia’s attack on the U.S. government.

The one slight niggle is that Chomsky places square blame on NATO, of which we are the major biggest player, but far from the only player.

Chomsky lost me back in 1978 when he and his co-author Edward S. Herman questioned the first hand reports of Cambodians who were witness to the widespread genocide there. Including stories of survivors that were documented in a couple of books at that moment, one of which Chomsky called "third rate propaganda."

Chomsky turned a blind eye to the evidence at a moment when an estimated 1.5 to 2 million people (a quarter of the country's population) were being murdered by the Khmer Rouge, and far-larger numbers were sent off to forced work camps where the atrocities were horrific.

All this was known in 1978. Yet, while dismissing all the evidence of the active genocide (which had been going on for several years) Chomsky praised another book released at that time that described Cambodia under Pol Pot as a "bucolic idyll."

Noam Chomsky was dead wrong about Cambodia and he's tried to make excuses ever since.

I was a university student (at UC Berkeley in 1978, hardly a hot-bed of conservatism) studying international relations. My fellow IR classmates understood what was going on in Cambodia very well in the moment that Chomsky was excuse-making.

Everyone who was paying attention knew about the Killing Fields. Liberal/progressive students at Cal such as myself knew. I knew. But Chomsky expressed "skepticism." Not a position of good-faith, reason, or evidenced-based opinion in my estimation.

I consider what he did Cambodian Holocaust denialism. 100%. The evidence was too strong for "the wiggle" that he still tries to pull off to this day.

Like "the wiggle" he's taken tepidly condemning Putin's invasion, while blaming NATO.


And it has been a pattern of his to support autocrats as long as they are anti-US and anti-West. There any (many) more examples from around the globe.

IMO he has always missed the mark.

The Magistrate

(95,255 posts)
9. Exactly
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 10:13 PM
Apr 2023
"Chomsky lost me back in 1978 when he and his co-author Edward S. Herman questioned the first hand reports of Cambodians who were witness to the widespread genocide there. Including those Stories documented in a couple of books, one of which Chomsky called "third rate propaganda."

Chomsky turned a blind eye to the evidence and praised another book that described Cambodia under Pol Pot as a 'bucolic idyll.'"


This fellow, politically, has never been anything more than a reflexive contrarian, prepared to assail anything done by the West, and engage in apologetics for any body opposing the West. He's sort of the Medea Benjamin of Glenn Greenwalds, with emeritus status into the bargain.
 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
11. Any movement that was anti-West, Chomsky has supported. Always.
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 10:35 PM
Apr 2023

No matter who much blood they have on their hands.

Ukraine is another is a long line of examples.

 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
18. No. It is reactionary and anti-intellectual impulse.
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 11:13 PM
Apr 2023

I worked with groups who aided refugees from right-wing violence in Central and So. America.

Doing film-work (which was my professional career) for El Rescate as a volunteer, and other services, here in Los Angeles. And knew many other people who did far more than I did, going into the field documenting the right-wing genocides in places like Guatemala.

El Rescate was/is an organization that was/is decidedly on the left.

I took in a political refugee from Chile, who worked as an air-traffic controller, but fled when he witnessed planes full of political prisoners being flown out to sea and returning empty.

I criticise what needs to be criticized. Consistently, using my best intellectual judgements.

That's not what Chompsky did, in my estimation. Sometimes he seemed like "an ally," but it was all ideologically-based opposition to "the West."

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
31. I like a lot
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 11:52 PM
Apr 2023

of Chompsky's works. And I agree with virtually everything you have said here. More, I qiestion the few people I know that believe he is always right.

Johonny

(20,888 posts)
51. Pretty much
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 01:14 AM
Apr 2023

He's sort of a political bore as you can pretty much dial up his position on any matter of this type. His isn't a voice I actively seek.

Phoenix61

(17,019 posts)
56. A little off topic but I was just in Cambodia.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 02:05 AM
Apr 2023

I did a two day tour and during it someone asked our guide about the Killing Fields. He said his uncle had done something so they took him and everyone in his family, 10 people, women and children and killed them. He mentioned 25% of the population was killed. I hadn’t known that. There’s a tour you can take but I just couldn’t. I talked to some who had and they said it was hard to handle.

 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
70. A tour, where one saw the stacked up skulls, would not be easy to take.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 04:53 AM
Apr 2023

The enormity of the killing is hard to fathom.

In relative terms, that would be like having 84 million people killed here in the US.

Staggering numbers.

Thanks for sharing the story.

Celerity

(43,499 posts)
91. Choeung Ek, 17 kilometres south of Phnom Penh. Went there in 2011, when I was 14, with my parents.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 02:20 PM
Apr 2023

Images seared in my mind's eye for life. The fact it was an orchard made the horror even worse.

The Killing Tree, where they executed hundreds of children (so they did not grow up and take revenge) via beating them to death, was one of the most disturbing things I have ever seen in my life. Maybe the most.

Same feelings of staring into the abyss that I got at Auschwitz II-Birkenau.



The stupa is filled with over 5,000 skulls in multiple levels, behind plexiglass walls, some of which are opened up during the day.





I was going to post some other pics, but I decided to refrain, as they are just so brutal.



 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
10. I wonder if others have contemporaneous memories of what was known about the Cambodia genocide
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 10:33 PM
Apr 2023

in 1978?

I was admittedly in an intellectual bastion at the moment, and in a program at Cal Berkeley where we were better informed that most people in the society, but so was Chomsky.

He had to know. The round-ups of Cambodians started in 1975 for god's sake.

By 1978 the death toll and the conditions of the forced labour camps that drained Cambodia's cities of all it "bourgeois elements" was known.

If someone, for example, wore eyeglasses, they were branded as intellectuals and "enemies of the people," skipped of to do hard labor and generally killed (and their bodies gave out due to the privations). It was horrific.

Chomsky made excuses.

I wonder what others remember about what they knew of the Cambodian genocide in 1978?


xocetaceans

(3,872 posts)
34. This opinion piece essays to contradict your claims. It portrays what you're saying as
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 11:58 PM
Apr 2023

...essentially some kind of misguided misinterpretation or willful misrepresentation of what was written in those times. Further, it cites sources. (To see its sources, examine its links and google from there: the links are partly broken due to age, but the articles can be found as seen by the presence of the cited article by Christopher Hitchens below. JStor can be accessed with a Google login.)

The boring truth about Chomsky: he does not support Pol Pot
By Michael Brull


Posted Thu 30 Jun 2011 at 9:29pm, updated Tue 5 Jul 2011 at 12:18am

One does not have to agree with Chomsky to recognise his enormous influence and prestige throughout the world.

Virtually every political essay Chomsky has written since the '60s has included harsh attacks on the New York Times. Yet one could read in the NYT that:

...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-01/brull---the-boring-truth-about-chomsky/2779086


Here is a link to the article which Christopher Hitchens wrote, the one mentioned in that opinion piece and the one that seems to debunk your points:

Journal Article
The Chorus and Cassandra: What Everyone Knows about Noam Chomsky
Christopher Hitchens

Grand Street, Vol. 5, No. 1 (Autumn, 1985), pp. 106-131 (26 pages)


...so much pelf and so much cant...

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25006809


It's a bit long, but it makes your recollections seem unreliable.

All that being said, Chomsky's condemnation of Putin is valid. If Chomsky has made valid points concerning the times and events (frankly, he probably has based on his record of prior analyses) before Russia's invasion of Ukraine, those can be considered after the Russian aggression has been ended, and Russia is out of pre-2014 Ukraine.

After all, the first and most important project now should be to help Ukraine defend itself. Additionally, Eastern Europe has very good reasons not to want to have anything to do with Russia due to what Russia did there during its time as the Soviet Union.

Anyway, I don't know if you can counter Hitchens' piece, but if you care to try to cite sources better than Hitchens' and better than memory, please feel free to expound.

Christopher Hitchens really had a gift at turning a phrase.
 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
38. No. The efforts to rehabilitate Chomsky and his writings on Cambodia have been persistent.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 12:17 AM
Apr 2023

They are also meritless.

Christopher Hitchens certainly did have a gift at turning a phrase, but his was the loudest dumb-beat on the left calling for an American war against Saddam.

The JSTOR article has limited access.

My recollections are MOST CERTAINLY NOT unreliable.

This was my course of study at university. And what was going on with the genocide in Cambodia was a big deal in my circle at that time. Just as the role of SAVAK, the Shah's secret police (who were engaged in torture and extrajudicial killings in Iran.

Don't question what I knew. Or suggest my memory is unreliable. Because that is utterly false.

xocetaceans

(3,872 posts)
71. The given citations of original sources seem to be perfectly reasonable rebuttals of your claims.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 04:58 AM
Apr 2023

All it takes is reading them, and most of what you have said seems not to be correct. It makes it appear as if you have an ax to grind with Chomsky and are trying to use a historically distant situation to accuse him of impropriety. Anyway, I cannot be sure of any of that, but from the original source material, it certainly looks like you are wrong about your accusations.

If you have a gmail account or any sort of Google account, you can login to JSTOR and read the entire article with no problem.

I'll leave it at that, because there's no point in arguing. Anyone who wants to see the source material can: it just does not seem even remotely to support your position.

 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
72. Not wrong and not "accusations"
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 05:38 AM
Apr 2023

Chompsky tried to discredit the stories coming out of Cambodia from people who had witnessed the atrocities and escaped, while offering praise for Pol Pot at a time (1978) when informed people were aware of the outlines of what was happening there.

Sorry.

xocetaceans

(3,872 posts)
87. Attest a source then. I have no dog in this fight, but the historical documentation does not support
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 11:49 AM
Apr 2023

...your set of claims. If you cannot do so, what does that say about your set of claims?

lapucelle

(18,319 posts)
97. The "original source" is an opinion piece and there are neither "citations"
Mon Apr 17, 2023, 06:06 AM
Apr 2023

nor a "works cited" page. Decontextualized quotes are not "citations".

lapucelle

(18,319 posts)
76. Oh dear. This Christopher Hitchens?
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 08:00 AM
Apr 2023

Last edited Sun Apr 16, 2023, 12:47 PM - Edit history (1)

If Not Now…
There are a number of persuasive reasons to cast a vote for Ralph Nader in the fall, and a number of unpersuasive reasons, too.


or this one...

Why I'm voting for Bush (but only just)

Or maybe the Christopher Hitchens who told us we were unduly worried about the Supreme Court?

Now I know that many of you are sincerely, gravely, brow-furrowingly worried about which future monarch gets to appoint which future Justice. But why not admit it? You don’t really know, and you won’t really be asked, who will fill the next Supreme Court seat. (And it was the Democratic majority on the Senate Judiciary Committee, not George Bush senior, who made Clarence Thomas a Supreme.) It is as possible, in theory as well as practice, to imagine Gore making a safe and stupid reactionary appointment as it is to picture Bush making an “unpredictable” centrist one. The point, though, is that it is servile to wait upon their pleasure and caprice in this way.

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/if-not-now/

As for any "gift for turning a phrase", Hitchen's style is pompous and self-conscious, but that might be by design to distract from the paucity of intellectual depth.


xocetaceans

(3,872 posts)
86. Your post does not even address the points that Hitchens made in his article regarding Chomsky.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 11:46 AM
Apr 2023

That's a fallacious mode of argumentation.

However, thanks for providing a link to support your commentary...except it doesn't contain the excerpt which you've cited.

Oh well, it is an interesting opinion piece/article, nevertheless.

However, since Hitchens cited actually published material and you don't or cannot, it's not a mystery whose argument is better.

lapucelle

(18,319 posts)
89. The Hitchen's thingy is nothing but an opinion piece.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 12:46 PM
Apr 2023

There are no citations in the Hitchens pontification, simply several decontextualized quotes. It's not a scholarly article; it's an opinion piece in a literary quarterly.

The idiot Hitchens told people to vote for Ralph Nader in 2000, assuring them that there was no need to worry about the Supreme Court. Then he doubled down and proudly preened that he was voting for Bush in 2004.

Hitchens does not have the requisite judgement for his opinion to be valued.

Now I know that many of you are sincerely, gravely, brow-furrowingly worried about which future monarch gets to appoint which future Justice. But why not admit it? You don’t really know, and you won’t really be asked, who will fill the next Supreme Court seat. (And it was the Democratic majority on the Senate Judiciary Committee, not George Bush senior, who made Clarence Thomas a Supreme.) It is as possible, in theory as well as practice, to imagine Gore making a safe and stupid reactionary appointment as it is to picture Bush making an “unpredictable” centrist one. The point, though, is that it is servile to wait upon their pleasure and caprice in this way.

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/if-not-now/







xocetaceans

(3,872 posts)
95. Why keep refusing to address the point of contention?
Mon Apr 17, 2023, 04:53 AM
Apr 2023

Clearly, Hitchens' piece notes Chomsky's preface to Caldwell's and Tan's book from 1973 -

Cambodia and the Southeast Asian War by Malcolm Caldwell and Lek Tan
Preface by Noam Chomsky

Monthly Review Press
New York and London

https://archive.org/details/cambodiainsouthe0000cald/mode/2up


That preface seems to be part of what Chomsky's critics wish to use against him. It's there to be read
if you choose. Simple. Straightforward.

It's not reflective of the previous claims that seem to be on offer here.


Who cares what Hitchens had to say on other issues? Those are not germane.

Again, please try to attest some evidence or admit you have no points worthy of making on this topic and carry on to a decent remove.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
88. +100. Hitchins is a type, sort of academia's version of Fox --
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 12:00 PM
Apr 2023

a source of "alternative" intellectualism for the many who are repelled by the real thing, with just about as much commitment to truth.

Unfortunately, there is a huge, lucrative market beyond student and campuses for that kind of product, including power blocs served by it, who keep those who serve it employed.

yardwork

(61,703 posts)
40. I was in college at about the same time as you.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 12:45 AM
Apr 2023

I don't remember reading Chomsky at the time, but I was aware of the atrocities in Cambodia. I believe the full extent wasn't known until somewhat later, but I'm hazy on the details. I wasn't studying current IR. I was studying the transatlantic slave trade and African colonialism, so I was preoccupied with atrocities that had occurred hundreds of years earlier, that people were (and still are) trying to cover up.

There is much to criticize about capitalism, but I've always been puzzled by people who will not face the facts about authoritarian left-wing regimes. Why it is so hard for them to acknowledge, I don't know. We still hear defenses of North Korea, for heavens sake. I don't get it.

 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
46. Thank you. This is what I believed was the common experience
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 12:54 AM
Apr 2023

of college students at the time who paid attention to world events.

I admit I was on an extreme in this regard as an IR major.

But I feel like there was at least some general understanding among educated people at the time that Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge had rounded up huge numbers of Cambodians in forced labor camps, and that people were dying.

Certainly by 1978, when Chomsky was promoting "skepticism."



yardwork

(61,703 posts)
78. If it hadn't been known, he wouldn't have had anything to express skepticism about.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 09:12 AM
Apr 2023

His published opinions at that time indicate that others had counter opinions. He chose to believe the propaganda coming out of Cambodia and other places, because he was so focused on resisting the U.S. propaganda.

It is very similar to what we're hearing about Russia and Ukraine from certain quarters.

Over the course of my life I've met people who won't acknowledge that the Soviet Union did anything evil, that Cuba is a wonderful place, etc. All the bad things are "our" fault, the fault of capitalists.

Maybe these folks are seekers. They seek the utopia. They want to believe.

Chomsky is a lot more nuanced, of course, but still. I appreciate his insights into our domestic problems.

 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
79. You make excellent points all around.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 09:18 AM
Apr 2023

There has been a effort to rehabilitate Chomsky on his Cambodia Genocide denialism, and forces on the hard-left will no doubt continue to make excuses for him on Ukraine.

lapucelle

(18,319 posts)
77. I was in college and grad school at the time as well.
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 08:33 AM
Apr 2023

I read Chomsky in linguistics courses, but I don't remember his political engagement.

And yes, we were all aware of what was going on in Cambodia.

Igel

(35,356 posts)
26. He has his views.
Sat Apr 15, 2023, 11:38 PM
Apr 2023

What defines "this is the political truth" by which we're all to be compared and judged.

I think he's fairly often wrong, and not just in politics. (Granted, "move-alpha" wasn't his, but still.)

Just because I don't accept his views (in syntax) doesn't mean I don't respect him. X-bar theory was an advancement, to be sure, and I think in terms of IP and TP.

In other words, break the binary--a person can be wrong in X and right in L. There's more than "utterly wrong" and "utterly right".

And good people make mistakes, bad people do good things.

Sky Jewels

(7,137 posts)
48. I'm about as progressive/non-hawkish as they come
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 12:59 AM
Apr 2023

but I think the “only the US can be imperialistic and Putin was provoked into invading Ukraine” view is BULLSHIT. There are some, like Chomsky, who have gone so far left that they end up on the far right, repeating pro-Putin Russian propaganda just because it’s anti-US.

 

ExWhoDoesntCare

(4,741 posts)
94. I've always viewed him as I do most people
Sun Apr 16, 2023, 05:15 PM
Apr 2023

When he's discussing his primary field of expertise (linguistics and the crossroads of language, media and politics), he's brilliant.

Everything else is his opinion, and not always a great or well-informed one. Being an expert in one small corner of the intellectual pool doesn't make him an expert on anything else, and it often shows.

Same as with anyone else.

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